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skyadrenaline
03-16-2010, 7:04 PM
I am a subscriber to Front Sight's weekly newsletter, thought that this post is really cool. Basically, send 4 printouts (8.5 x 11) of the "Dont Tread on Me" flag to the Prez and your Senators/Representatives, and postmark them on April 19 to commemorate "the shot heard around the world." Save the 5th printout, and Ignatius will send out rewards. (I hope it's free/discounted firearms training).

Even if you don't want the reward, just participating is pretty cool imo.


Edit: Hope this isn't considered spam

When I started this blog, 100 Mondays ago, I didn't think it would grow so fast. We now have over 275,000 subscribers who read my posts and forward them on to their family and friends.

Over 275,000 subscribers and growing is a number I want you to remember because collectively, with the power of the Internet, 275,000 subscribers can make history and in doing so influence a much needed and proper "change" in the direction our country is heading!

I'm serious and not only am I going to prove it to you, I am going to make it so simple for you be a part of making history through influencing a much needed and proper change in the direction of our country, and I'm going to reward you greatly for doing so!

Here is what I mean...

As you know, there are a number of organizations that have conducted marches and events to send a clear message to our government that the Silent Majority in this country are more than unhappy with the direction America is heading.

The discontent has no party lines. We are disillusioned with and distrustful of "politicians" in general and that includes Democrats and Republicans. Basically, we are damn tired of the Constitution and Bill of Rights being ignored, our freedoms trampled, and those we elect continuing to forget who they are supposed to serve... WE THE PEOPLE.

As you are well aware the, Tea Party Movement is holding numerous rallies in cities across the country through April 15th. The Second Amendment March on Washington, DC is happening on April 19. These are great events that will attract a significant amount of people attending, but there is no way that the "Silent Majority" will be properly represented because we cannot ALL attend.

But WE THE PEOPLE, the Silent Majority who are armed, understand our rights, and recognize that the current batch of elected servants in Washington, DC just don't "get it" can send a clear and concise warning to the government that will make our Founding Fathers smile from above and send a cold chill down the spines of those failing to "...preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Here is how easy you can make history and influence a much needed and proper "change" in the direction of our country!

Step 1. Print out FIVE COPIES of the most descriptive flag in American history, the symbol Benjamin Franklin felt was the most appropriate for the revolution when he wrote, "She never begins an attack, nor, when once engaged, ever surrenders: She is therefore an emblem of magnanimity and true courage. ... she never wounds 'till she has generously given notice, even to her enemy, and cautioned him against the danger of treading on her."

Don't Tread On Me (http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/images/dont-tread-on-me.html)

Step 2. Fold one of the 8 1/2 x 11 inch flags and insert it into an envelope addressed the President of the United States. The President's address is:

President Barack Obama
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

Fold another and insert it into an envelope addressed to your Federal Representative. Fold another two flags and address them to each of your Senators in Washington, DC.

Click here to find the addresses of your Senators and Representative. (http://capwiz.com/gunowners/directory/congdir.tt)

Place all four envelopes in the mail so they are postmarked MONDAY, APRIL 19th. Why April 19th? Because April 19th is the anniversary of the "Shot Heard Round the World." On that day in 1775, our forefathers stood their ground against British tyranny in the Battle of Old North Bridge at Concord, Massachusetts.

Save the FIFTH FLAG for the reward I will give you after April 19th. That fifth flag will be worth thousands of dollars to you to show my thanks for your participation in sending a clear message to our government that the Silent Majority in this country will not tolerate the direction America is heading.

Step 3. Forward this email to your family and friends, everyone on your e-mail lists, and place it on all the chat rooms you frequent. Make this April 19th postmark "Don't Tread on Me" mail campaign go viral throughout the Internet and OVERWHELM our elected officials in Washington, DC so they know, without a doubt, that the Silent Majority, who understand the Constitution -- whether Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, or undeclared are NOT TO BE TREAD UPON!

Remember I told you that I would prove to you that as one of the 275,000 subscribers to my blog, collectively, with the power of the Internet, you can make history and in doing so influence a much needed and proper "change" in the direction of our country!

Well here is the proof...

If you and my other subscribers follow all three steps and just ONE of the people you send this email to does the same, and just ONE of the people they send this email to does the same, and just ONE of the people they send this email to does the same, and so on... by April 19th, TENS OF MILLIONS of "Don't Tread on Me" letters will flood Washington, DC throughout the week of April 19th creating a thunderous "shot heard round the world" that the media and every elected official cannot ignore!

All it takes to make YOUR shot heard round the world is to follow the 3 simple steps above.

And remember to save the fifth flag you print out for the amazing reward I am going to give on April 20th to YOU and everyone who participates in the Monday, April 19th "Don't Tread on Me" postal mail campaign. Believe me when I say it is worth thousands of dollars to you and will dwarf everything I have done as the "Millionaire Patriot" to date!

Follow the three simple steps above and get ready to fire your shot with your "Don't Tread on Me" postal mail drop on Monday, April 19th, 2010.

Our Founding Fathers stood their ground against the greatest military machine of their time, sacrificing EVERYTHING to win our freedom. Let's show Washington, DC that the blood of our forefathers is still pumping through the arteries of the Silent Majority and we are rattling a warning... Don't Tread on US!

Follow the 3 Simple Steps above TODAY and get ready to fire your shot with tens of millions of your fellow patriots through the Monday, April 19th "Don't Tread on Me" postal mail drop!

Thanks for your patriotism.


PS Here are some great links that give you more history on the "Don't Tread on Me" flag.

http://www.gadsden.info/history.html
http://www.foundingfathers.info/stories/gadsden.html
http://www.interesting.com/stories/gadsden/

wildhawker
03-16-2010, 7:49 PM
'Dr. Pizza' is one of the most outrageous and abrasive personalities I've come across in a while. I will NEVER support him, any of his companies or campaigns.

skyadrenaline
03-16-2010, 7:55 PM
Hmm... interesting. Care to explain why?

Lone_Gunman
03-16-2010, 8:24 PM
'cause he's a bandwagon jumping, media hound, douchebag. Thats why. Freakin' douche freakin' bag.

wildhawker
03-16-2010, 8:30 PM
'cause he's a bandwagon jumping, media hound, douchebag. Thats why. Freakin' douche freakin' bag.

This is correct.

Additionally, I recently had an opportunity to hear him bad-mouth a good organization (NRA) and good people. He used his speaking time to push his product. If he could bottle snake oil I think he'd sell it as the latest in AR lubrication.

Jedi
03-16-2010, 9:38 PM
While I have not had the displeasure to meet Piazza, his own comments and criticisms have allowed me to form a pretty negative view of him. There are numerous instances in which he has utilized a well publicized citizen involved shooting to grandstand about how "poorly trained" the citizens are and how they should have taken classes at Front Sight. In more than a few of these instances, the citizens were actually VERY well trained off duty LEO or retired MIL with more real world experience than Piazza and the review of the events by Piazza only go to demonstrate that Piazza lacks understanding of real world encounters.

AndrewMendez
03-16-2010, 10:09 PM
This is correct.

Additionally, I recently had an opportunity to hear him bad-mouth a good organization (NRA) and good people. He used his speaking time to push his product. If he could bottle snake oil I think he'd sell it as the latest in AR lubrication.

No more frontsight training for me.

gunsmith
03-16-2010, 10:44 PM
yeah, I've been around the good fight since the late 90's, never heard much good about him. To bad! a place like front sight is a good idea.

drutledge79
03-16-2010, 11:01 PM
Also, if you've been around long enough you'll find that these "deals" are the same thing over and over. If you attended a rallly in support of blah, then you get this special deal. If you or a family member or someone you know who knows someone that is or was in the military or maybe is thinking about it then you can get this extra special deal!!! Yay!

At some point you realize he never wants proof of any of these things. It's just some Scientology salesmanship. I expect most of us here were excited the first time we heard about one of his deals. I was.

Still, I haven't completely written him off. Seems that lots of folks gain good knowledge and experience from classes there. If you go, just make sure you don't buy into any Ultra Platinum Executive Lifetime membership on your first go-around.

DR

Fate
03-16-2010, 11:09 PM
'Dr. Pizza' is one of the most outrageous and abrasive personalities I've come across in a while.

Hahahahaha...
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/smilies/kettlepot.gif

;)

wildhawker
03-17-2010, 12:14 AM
Hahahahaha...
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/smilies/kettlepot.gif

;)

My assertions are based in fact. His inflammatory remarks weren't even close to the truth.

Window_Seat
03-17-2010, 12:34 AM
Wow, I knew that he was kind of radical, but I've always heard good about his training facility.

Erik.

Fate
03-17-2010, 9:03 AM
My assertions are based in fact. His inflammatory remarks weren't even close to the truth.

I'm not connecting those in any way, shape or form.

Just found it funny for you to be calling someone abrasive when that same accusation has been leveled at you more than once. ;)

Grakken
03-17-2010, 9:38 AM
So what exactly does he do or say that gives him douchebag status?

Be specific.

POLICESTATE
03-17-2010, 9:58 AM
Hahahahaha...
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/smilies/kettlepot.gif

;)

Funny smily, although neither the pot nor the kettle are black?

yelohamr
03-17-2010, 10:33 AM
'Dr. Pizza' is one of the most outrageous and abrasive personalities I've come across in a while. I will NEVER support him, any of his companies or campaigns.

Holy Crap!! We agree on something.
I noticed that American Rifleman is back to running full page ads for him again. The NRA can follow his money, as they won't be getting anymore of mine.

MP301
03-17-2010, 10:56 AM
Wow, I knew that he was kind of radical, but I've always heard good about his training facility.

Erik.

Yes, the training is top notch. You will find that 999 times out of a 1000, those talking crap have never been to a class at FS. They usually have an ax to grind or are grinding someone else's ax. They don't care that every time they spew this crap, it turns newbs and those that don't like to think for themselves away from great and affordable training that they may otherwise not get.

I have never met Piazza and don't care if I ever do. he is rarely, if ever, at the facility. I think that his ego is a bit large for my taste. His marketing is agresive, that is true. But everything he says in his marketing about what the school does for you is accurate. I also think, based on my experience and that of everyone I know who has attended, that he has a great product/service and no amount of talking this unecessary hate BS is going to change that.

I Think that I will invite every person I have seen talk crap here to a Four day handgun class for a small CGF donation and see what happens. Most of the folks I have seen talk crap I think will have enough integrity to at least tell the truth once they see for themselves. Getting them to actually get the stones to go...... That's another story.

From my iPhone, so forgive me any spelling errors!

N6ATF
03-17-2010, 10:57 AM
Lot of trouble. Easier to fly the flag on vehicle antennas, and more visible. Would be nice if the bastards couldn't go anywhere in the country (but especially DC) without seeing them.

Deadred7o7
03-17-2010, 11:04 AM
This is correct.

Additionally, I recently had an opportunity to hear him bad-mouth a good organization (NRA) and good people. He used his speaking time to push his product. If he could bottle snake oil I think he'd sell it as the latest in AR lubrication.


:rofl2:

Window_Seat
03-17-2010, 11:34 AM
Yes, the training is top notch. You will find that 999 times out of a 1000, those talking crap have never been to a class at FS. They usually have an ax to grind or are grinding someone else's ax. They don't care that every time they spew this crap, it turns newbs and those that don't like to think for themselves away from great and affordable training that they may otherwise not get.

I have never met Piazza and don't care if I ever do. he is rarely, if ever, at the facility. I think that his ego is a bit large for my taste. His marketing is agresive, that is true. But everything he says in his marketing about what the school does for you is accurate. I also think, based on my experience and that of everyone I know who has attended, that he has a great product/service and no amount of talking this unecessary hate BS is going to change that.

I Think that I will invite every person I have seen talk crap here to a Four day handgun class for a small CGF donation and see what happens. Most of the folks I have seen talk crap I think will have enough integrity to at least tell the truth once they see for themselves. Getting them to actually get the stones to go...... That's another story.

From my iPhone, so forgive me any spelling errors!

I have a newb cert, and plan to go for the Rifle course when I'm able to, and have read about the aggressiveness of the marketing, but also understand that the tone has come down a bit as well because of a past lawsuit(s), although I could be wrong about that. I don't believe in talking crap either, and it doesn't serve this organization well with our purpose. Facts are important, just as opinions are, but slandering should be off limits, especially if not true.

Erik.

ZombieTactics
03-17-2010, 11:39 AM
Yes, the training is top notch. You will find that 999 times out of a 1000, those talking crap have never been to a class at FS. They usually have an ax to grind or are grinding someone else's ax. They don't care that every time they spew this crap, it turns newbs and those that don't like to think for themselves away from great and affordable training that they may otherwise not get.
The training is excellent. While that's my opinion, I consider it about as close to an incontestable fact as any opinion is likely to be. I base that not only on my 35+ years of firearms experience, but also upon the fact that I regularly train alongside (current and former) SWAT team members from major metro areas, Navy Seals, soldiers of all ranks and services ... sometimes even from other countries, all sorts of LE types, including 3-letter organizations ... and they share a similar opinion about the quality of training offered.

I am aware of some criticisms of their training methods and the techniques taught. These are not entirely without merit, but are from a certain perspective. Most of this comes from those who prefer a more "military-style entertainment" type of training , with all sorts of explosions going on and an R. Lee Emery clone barking out "dirtbag" and "maggot" every other word. I can see the fun of that, and that some schools are much more military or team-tactic oriented ... so I can see the value that some of those schools offer as well in some cases. Perspective is important.

I have never met Piazza and don't care if I ever do. he is rarely, if ever, at the facility. I think that his ego is a bit large for my taste. His marketing is agresive, that is true. But everything he says in his marketing about what the school does for you is accurate. I also think, based on my experience and that of everyone I know who has attended, that he has a great product/service and no amount of talking this unecessary hate BS is going to change that.
Piazza - to me - seems to be the classic "megalomaniac on a mission" personae who simply cannot be anything other than a bit abrasive and obnoxious. As much as his marketing stuff reeks of overkill in the "I am so excited" department, my personal communications with him reveal a very thoughtful, gentle, almost painfully concerned individual well-aware of (and probably more hurt than he can admit) the kind of negative stuff said about him. I think he's learned to be a bit guarded over the years as well.

I Think that I will invite every person I have seen talk crap here to a Four day handgun class for a small CGF donation and see what happens. Most of the folks I have seen talk crap I think will have enough integrity to at least tell the truth once they see for themselves. Getting them to actually get the stones to go...... That's another story.
Well, some people are weird. I've met more than one person who has accused me of being a "brainwashed $cientologist" because I am an FS member ... what can you do with that sort of prejudice? Piazza himself doesn't even really fit that description, if you really know anything about the CO$. The fact that he got to CO$ "clear" is almost meaningless ... but the ignorant will make hay of anything they can. It's like telling someone you are a Christian and being accused of wanting to burn witches at the stake, or being an Ayn Rand fan and having people automatically assume that you are an atheist.

People really need to think a bit more for themselves rather than spouting canned invective.

wildhawker
03-17-2010, 11:52 AM
Holy Crap!! We agree on something.
I noticed that American Rifleman is back to running full page ads for him again. The NRA can follow his money, as they won't be getting anymore of mine.

A little birdie told me that NRA won't be running any more FS ads... apparently that one slipped past QC.

By the way, just because we disagree about one issue often does not necessarily mean we disagree on many things. ;)

wildhawker
03-17-2010, 11:55 AM
:rofl2:

Feel free to chuckle. It's too bad you don't see fit to educate yourself on the many upsides to NRA and how bad a shape we'd be in without them. How's GOC doing with all those bills they're running? That's right. They don't.

N6ATF
03-17-2010, 11:57 AM
A little birdie told me that NRA won't be running any more FS ads... apparently that one slipped past QC.

By the way, just because we disagree about one issue often does not necessarily mean we disagree on many things. ;)

Why wouldn't they laugh all the way to the bank? "Slam us all you want, we're still getting your ad revenue."

ZombieTactics
03-17-2010, 11:57 AM
I have a newb cert, and plan to go for the Rifle course when I'm able to, and have read about the aggressiveness of the marketing, but also understand that the tone has come down a bit as well because of a past lawsuit(s), although I could be wrong about that. ...
You'll enjoy the course, and probably learn more than you thought you would, regardless of your current level of training and experince.

Some people have a very low threshold for what they consider "aggressive marketing". If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll get 1 or 2 sometimes very cheezy emails a week. You'll also get a LOT of various "special offers" for memberships and other things. Some of these are "meh", others are a pretty extreme value.

As an example, you could recently get an XD pistol, plus a benchmat, an FS logo knife, all of the training manuals, an FS hat & shirt along with the 4-day handgun training plus CCW course for $600. Call me crazy, but that's a damned good deal if you ask me. I got an all-inclusive Diamond Membership with the Alaska supplement + Rifle, Handgun & Shotgun for slightly more money than the weapons alone would have cost me locally. I've already received the guns, and I have yet to even pay completely for the membership ... no charge account, no credit check, not even a signed contract ... just a "handshake" kind of deal the way most people of goodwill would like to deal with each other. I can take any courses FS offers now or even new ones added in the future ... no additional cost.

It's pretty typical for them to do a 10-minute pitch for some membership deal at lunch, usually including bonus weapons. One time they were offering a "Legacy Membership" plus bonus AR15, Mossberg590A1 and Springfield XD for the low, low price of $1995 ... but wait there's more! Seriously though, the presentation is so low key and short you'll miss it if you go to the bathroom at the wrong time or nod off for a second.

I am supposed to think Piazza is the devil incarnate becasue of his 70s-style 'stash or something?

ScorpioVI
03-17-2010, 12:02 PM
Scientologists are all a bunch of nutbags. They won't get any of my business or support...

wildhawker
03-17-2010, 12:44 PM
Why wouldn't they laugh all the way to the bank? "Slam us all you want, we're still getting your ad revenue."

That's not how this one works.

wildhawker
03-17-2010, 12:45 PM
My threshold is quite high, and it wasn't simply a sales pitch. It was using every minute of time as a feature speaker at an annual gala event for a major fun rights org to bash the org, the NRA, membership and sell the FS product.

Nothing of value. At. All.

You'll enjoy the course, and probably learn more than you thought you would, regardless of your current level of training and experince.

Some people have a very low threshold for what they consider "aggressive marketing". If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll get 1 or 2 sometimes very cheezy emails a week. You'll also get a LOT of various "special offers" for memberships and other things. Some of these are "meh", others are a pretty extreme value.

As an example, you could recently get an XD pistol, plus a benchmat, an FS logo knife, all of the training manuals, an FS hat & shirt along with the 4-day handgun training plus CCW course for $600. Call me crazy, but that's a damned good deal if you ask me. I got an all-inclusive Diamond Membership with the Alaska supplement + Rifle, Handgun & Shotgun for slightly more money than the weapons alone would have cost me locally. I've already received the guns, and I have yet to even pay completely for the membership ... no charge account, no credit check, not even a signed contract ... just a "handshake" kind of deal the way most people of goodwill would like to deal with each other. I can take any courses FS offers now or even new ones added in the future ... no additional cost.

It's pretty typical for them to do a 10-minute pitch for some membership deal at lunch, usually including bonus weapons. One time they were offering a "Legacy Membership" plus bonus AR15, Mossberg590A1 and Springfield XD for the low, low price of $1995 ... but wait there's more! Seriously though, the presentation is so low key and short you'll miss it if you go to the bathroom at the wrong time or nod off for a second.

I am supposed to think Piazza is the devil incarnate becasue of his 70s-style 'stash or something?

ZombieTactics
03-17-2010, 12:50 PM
Scientologists are all a bunch of nutbags. They won't get any of my business or support... Cool, start putting together a list so you can be consistent. I imagine you'll ask every business you deal with whether any of them have ever done any CO$ courses or training, right? Heaven forbid some housewife does the "personality test" at a local county fair or out in front of the mall. I have a copy of Dianetics (let me tell you, it's a laugh riot) does that make ME a loon? A guy named McCarthy was fond of that kind of thinking.

Let me clue you in on a little-known thing about the CO$ ... LOTS of people get taken by their crap and spend a bunch of money to reach "clear", and then they sort of come to their senses when they get the "but wait, you need to stay on the bridge, complete the path (or whatever) and do all this other expensive stuff!" Some people pursue CO$ as their "latest thing". I had a GF who "into" est, CO$, crystal healing ... flavor of the month. I submit to you that she WAS a bit looney, lol. Should she be branded "unworthy" by your new movement? When do the trains start running?

People tend to be embarrassed about the silly things they've been apart of ... would you like to know my personal list? Would you like to forever brand someone a CO$ "cultist" because they did some courses and ultimately had to admit they've been duped?

ZombieTactics
03-17-2010, 12:55 PM
My threshold is quite high, and it wasn't simply a sales pitch. It was using every minute of time as a feature speaker at an annual gala event for a major fun rights org to bash the org, the NRA, membership and sell the FS product.

Nothing of value. At. All.

You've managed to completely drop context. I think it's clear that I was talking about the mythical "high-pressure sales pitch" that some people ignorantly claim happens when you go to an FS training. People who call THAT a high-pressure pitch are deeply dishonest or severely challenged in some other way, IMHO.

I completely understand your frustration with what you observed at that particular fundraising event. I think this clearly fits the "megalomaniac with a mission" notion offered earlier. Piazza can be a tool, I get that completely. As an aside, it would be helpful if someone could detail some of the falsehoods that Piazza spread about the NRA. Name calling and vague references are hardly more than a "believe cuz I said so" kind of deal.

To imply even subtlely that this means that FS in it's entirety is "Nothing of value. At. All." is rife with intellectual dishonesty.

AndrewMendez
03-17-2010, 1:11 PM
My threshold is quite high, and it wasn't simply a sales pitch. It was using every minute of time as a feature speaker at an annual gala event for a major fun rights org to bash the org, the NRA, membership and sell the FS product.

Nothing of value. At. All.

Sounds like you had a blast! :rolleyes:
Anyone that Brandon says is a "No Go," is generally good enough for me, but ANYONE who bashes the NRA, CRPA, or CGF is not a friend of mine and someone who I will never support!

wildhawker
03-17-2010, 1:20 PM
I think you're missing the context of my comments, which were a judgement of Mr. Piazza and his speech, not FS. However, as in all things, we tend to associate people and their endeavors so your confusion isn't entirely unwarranted.

Some comments of his, paraphrased:

"NRA membership has steadily declined." "NRA is becoming more and more ineffective."

You've managed to completely drop context. I think it's clear that I was talking about the mythical "high-pressure sales pitch" that some people ignorantly claim happens when you go to an FS training. People who call THAT a high-pressure pitch are deeply dishonest or severely challenged in some other way, IMHO.

I completely understand your frustration with what you observed at that particular fundraising event. I think this clearly fits the "megalomaniac with a mission" notion offered earlier. Piazza can be a tool, I get that completely. As an aside, it would be helpful if someone could detail some of the falsehoods that Piazza spread about the NRA. Name calling and vague references are hardly more than a "believe cuz I said so" kind of deal.

To imply even subtlely that this means that FS in it's entirety is "Nothing of value. At. All." is rife with intellectual dishonesty.

ZombieTactics
03-17-2010, 1:51 PM
I think you're missing the context of my comments, which were a judgement of Mr. Piazza and his speech, not FS. However, as in all things, we tend to associate people and their endeavors so your confusion isn't entirely unwarranted. OK, fair enough. I don't imagine you are going to stop using electric light bulbs because Ben Franklin was a womanizer and Thomas Edison was something of an unethical, self-aggrandizing, hack scientist, though.

Some comments of his, paraphrased:

"NRA membership has steadily declined." "NRA is becoming more and more ineffective." Well, I am proudly an NRA member, so you can imagine I have at least some sympathies there.

The point about declining membership is at least arguable, given NRAs tendency to report "evangelistic" figures ... if you understand that term correctly. I don't think that the NRA is to be damned for this "marginally unethical" (j/k) business practice, BTW.

The "more n more" ineffective" I certainly do't appreciate at all. I do know people who feel that way however, and not entirely without reason. Think about Wayne's "jack booted thug" comments, the whole "nobody needs THAT THING for hunting" mentality and how they've managed to simultaneously oppose litigation only to horn in at the last minute and claim it as THEIR victory. A lot of that is old news or overblown, as far as I am concerned. I'm just not one of those people who has to hate the Beatles because I like the Beach Boys, I guess.

I'm still not getting the really juicy stuff from you yet, I guess. In the interest of brevity, does anyone have a tape or a video?

N6ATF
03-17-2010, 2:18 PM
That's not how this one works.

Front Sight was writing checks NRA couldn't cash? Capitalism is dead?

wildhawker
03-17-2010, 2:52 PM
Front Sight was writing checks NRA couldn't cash? Capitalism is dead?

Capitalism isn't compelled. NRA can turn away advertisers, just like CGN can.

Apocalypsenerd
03-17-2010, 2:56 PM
I believe the NRA had steadily declining membership during the Bush years. I'm pretty sure that was their announcement.

I myself cancelled my membership considering some of their stances on things and the fact that Bush was pro-2A. It still boggles the mind that we discuss presidents on exactly which amendments they are pro on. They take an oath to protect the Constitution, regardless. In a perfect world we wouldn't need the SCOTUS because of these oaths.

I, like many, renewed my NRA membership after Obama took office and wanted to sell military brass to China at a loss. The NRA guy throwing this around as a sales pitch convinced me at a gun show to rejoin the NRA. I even got my NRA hat for signing up. It said "made in China" in it.

Sometimes you just can't win.

B Strong
03-17-2010, 5:54 PM
'Dr. Pizza' is one of the most outrageous and abrasive personalities I've come across in a while. I will NEVER support him, any of his companies or campaigns.

Hear, Hear!

I've trained there and have had good experiences, but Piazza loves the sound of his own voice, and I'm always suspicious of "combat masters" that haven't been downrage at least once.

Meplat
03-17-2010, 6:59 PM
Thank you for that well documented and informative addition to the thread.:pScientologists are all a bunch of nutbags. They won't get any of my business or support...

ZombieTactics
03-17-2010, 7:01 PM
... I'm always suspicious of "combat masters" that haven't been downrage at least once. Do you know what the "combat master" designation entails? Are you aware that Jeff Cooper himself was Piazza's mentor? Even so, "combat master" is not "medal of valor winner" ... nobody - including Piazza - has ever pretended otherwise AFAIK.

ZombieTactics
03-17-2010, 7:03 PM
... I'm always suspicious of "combat masters" that haven't been downrage at least once. Do you know what the "combat master" designation entails? If memory serves me, Jeff Cooper himself was Piazza's mentor ... does this make a difference to you? Ben Stairs and other FS instructors have spent considerable time downrange, and they seem to have some respect for the accomplishment. Regardless, it's not intended to mean "medal of valor winner", and I am unaware of anyone pretending otherwise.

Would anyone like to discuss the OP's topic, rather than engage in baseless accusations which are really off-topic?

Meplat
03-17-2010, 7:08 PM
The rest not withstanding, the guy named McCarthy was right. You should look into that a little deeper before you swallow the politically correct surface clichés on the subject.



Cool, start putting together a list so you can be consistent. I imagine you'll ask every business you deal with whether any of them have ever done any CO$ courses or training, right? Heaven forbid some housewife does the "personality test" at a local county fair or out in front of the mall. I have a copy of Dianetics (let me tell you, it's a laugh riot) does that make ME a loon? A guy named McCarthy was fond of that kind of thinking.

Let me clue you in on a little-known thing about the CO$ ... LOTS of people get taken by their crap and spend a bunch of money to reach "clear", and then they sort of come to their senses when they get the "but wait, you need to stay on the bridge, complete the path (or whatever) and do all this other expensive stuff!" Some people pursue CO$ as their "latest thing". I had a GF who "into" est, CO$, crystal healing ... flavor of the month. I submit to you that she WAS a bit looney, lol. Should she be branded "unworthy" by your new movement? When do the trains start running?

People tend to be embarrassed about the silly things they've been apart of ... would you like to know my personal list? Would you like to forever brand someone a CO$ "cultist" because they did some courses and ultimately had to admit they've been duped?

CharAznable
03-17-2010, 7:19 PM
Do politicians even take paper mail anymore? I thought with the anthrax attacks and such they've pretty much stopped using it.

ZombieTactics
03-17-2010, 7:21 PM
... the guy named McCarthy was right. You should look into that a little deeper before you swallow the politically correct surface clichés on the subject. He was right in asserting that there were communist agents in our government and institutions. He was wrong in making baseless accusations against anyone who had any appearance of a fleeting association with communism. Because of the latter he destroyed both the lives of many good people, as well as his cause in rooting out the latter. There is a lesson to be learned from his example.

B Strong
03-17-2010, 7:24 PM
Do you know what the "combat master" designation entails? Are you aware that Jeff Cooper himself was Piazza's mentor? Even so, "combat master" is not "medal of valor winner" ... nobody - including Piazza - has ever pretended otherwise AFAIK.

Piazza went to Gunsite as a student - so did I - and he took the "Combat Master" certification test and qualification criteria from Chuck Taylor, who had been an instructor under Cooper and later taught at FS.

I've heard Piazza enough with my own ears to know that no one has a higher opinion of him than himself.

ZombieTactics
03-17-2010, 8:09 PM
Piazza went to Gunsite as a student - so did I - and he took the "Combat Master" certification test and qualification criteria from Chuck Taylor, who had been an instructor under Cooper and later taught at FS.


Thanks for the clarification. Not exactly a damning association. What are your thoughts on the level of proficiency required to get CM certification? I know it's not exactly "warrior skills", lol.

Deadred7o7
03-17-2010, 11:19 PM
Feel free to chuckle. It's too bad you don't see fit to educate yourself on the many upsides to NRA and how bad a shape we'd be in without them. How's GOC doing with all those bills they're running? That's right. They don't.

I came here knowing everything there is to know, fully confident in my beliefs, and fully aware that any who believe differently were fully of crap.

All this is still true, though many of my positions are significantly different.

N6ATF
03-18-2010, 12:38 AM
Capitalism isn't compelled. NRA can turn away advertisers, just like CGN can.

So, less money for the (501(c)(4)) activities then.

wildhawker
03-18-2010, 2:14 AM
So, less money for the (501(c)(4)) activities then.

It's reasonable for organizations to shelter and disassociate themselves from others which cause them harm. Indeed, the directors of the organization have a fiduciary responsibility to do so. As such, the little lost revenue NRA may have realized from a relationship with FS will simply be replaced with the advertising revenues from another more synergistic organization. As a voting member, I'd expect as much.

That is, unless we feel that Brady's offer to advertise at CGN their alternatives to the gun culture would be an acceptable outcome.

ZombieTactics
03-18-2010, 6:39 AM
It's reasonable for organizations to shelter and disassociate themselves from others which cause them harm. Indeed, the directors of the organization have a fiduciary responsibility to do so. As such, the little lost revenue NRA may have realized from a relationship with FS will simply be replaced with the advertising revenues from another more synergistic organization. As a voting member, I'd expect as much. ...
It's also true that much of what solidifies the anti-gunners strength and effectiveness is their seeming ability to NOT turn on each other in this fashion. By this, I mean both Piazza's sniping and NRA's response.

"Synergy" does not mean a mutual admiration society masking and avoiding all conflict, but it does mean that sooner or later some people have to step up and consistently act like adults even while the children persist in having food fights.

People who constantly harp about the NRA's failings (including Piazza in this case) ultimately undercut their own cause, as do those who cannot resist every venue for spreading lies and rumors about Frontsight.

Some growing-the-hell-up is called for on everyone's part.

OrovilleTim
03-18-2010, 8:56 AM
Do something meaningful and relevant in honor of April 19th, 1775 and attend an Appleseed: http://www.appleseedinfo.org.

OrovilleTim
03-18-2010, 8:57 AM
Do something meaningful and relevant in honor of April 19th, 1775 and attend an Appleseed: http://www.appleseedinfo.org.

Oh yeah... take some friends and family too :) Women, kids, and active military are all free.

N6ATF
03-18-2010, 10:39 AM
It's reasonable for organizations to shelter and disassociate themselves from others which cause them harm. Indeed, the directors of the organization have a fiduciary responsibility to do so. As such, the little lost revenue NRA may have realized from a relationship with FS will simply be replaced with the advertising revenues from another more synergistic organization. As a voting member, I'd expect as much.

That is, unless we feel that Brady's offer to advertise at CGN their alternatives to the gun culture would be an acceptable outcome.

FS, harm the NRA? It looked like lots of people were claiming to cease funding NRA after the Clement SCOTUS time was announced. What about the FS kool-aid drinkers? Are we seeing on nationwide firearms forums "I'm leaving the NRA..." for X, Y reason that FS proselytized?

The great thing about dominating your own sandbox: setting the rules. Charge the Bradys an amount $1 less than their annual donations to advertise on CGN, then put a Criminals For Gun Control banner next to it.

chip3757
03-21-2010, 11:31 PM
I'm in! with obama care just about passed, its time, this is more than just about guns now.

chip3757
03-22-2010, 12:34 AM
what's getting ridiculous?

I dont give two s**ts about "the millionaire patriot" I do think this will send the perfect message to our "representatives" if you can still call them that.

ZombieTactics
03-22-2010, 7:31 AM
It just seems that every time that this douche pops up there is always someone running to his defense with the request of "Well show me where he was a douche...." ETC ETC. I was saying, half in jest, that it would be nice to have sticky located at the top entitled "The 99 reasons Piazza is a douche" or something to that effect. It would be easier than typing it out every time....

Yes, and aside from the "99 reasons Piazza is a jerk", we could also have a sticky called "99 lies told about Piazza or Frontsight". (I am not suggesting 100% overlap of those 2 topics, BTW.) I've done more actual research on Piazza and Frontsight than you can possibly imagine.

champion
03-22-2010, 5:44 PM
Regardless of Dr. P.'s supreme douchiness, I still think it's a good idea and will participate. I couldn't care less about his reward but I like the idea of the White House receiving thousands of DTOM flags.

champion
03-22-2010, 7:07 PM
+1

I did some research about him because I was thinking of taking a course and found that many of the people who hate him are full of their own lies about him. I think it's his car salesman-like selling tactics and the fact that he uses every possible opportunity to plug his business that make people not like him. He's an opportunist and that makes him an annoying douche

Yes, and aside from the "99 reasons Piazza is a jerk", we could also have a sticky called "99 lies told about Piazza or Frontsight". (I am not suggesting 100% overlap of those 2 topics, BTW.) I've done more actual research on Piazza and Frontsight than you can possibly imagine.

wildhawker
03-22-2010, 8:15 PM
In related news, I'll be a paying participant in upcoming Brady and LCAV symposiums on effective grassroots outreach and litigation. That's ok, too, right?

ZombieTactics
03-22-2010, 8:25 PM
In related news, I'll be a paying participant in upcoming Brady and LCAV symposiums on effective grassroots outreach and litigation. That's ok, too, right?
OK? I think it's absolutely diabolical, if I take your meaning correctly ... and I soooo hope I do! ;)

RomanDad
03-22-2010, 9:22 PM
Seriously? We need to sticky this S***. Its getting ridiculous.

I have to say, I don't know him.... I've never met him.... I've never taken a FrontSight class... I dont particularly have a dog in the fight one way or another... For all I know, he could be a super sharp, all around swell guy and the training stellar....

But based SOLELY on his own press and publicity, that I see from time to time in magazines and the net, the guy comes of as a major douchebag in the modern parlance of the term.... He comes off as the gun-guy version of Jersey Shore.... He could drop the "Dr." and go with Ignatius "The Situation" Piazza and nobody would bat an eye.

champion
03-22-2010, 9:59 PM
$4.95 for a vehicle magnet. Doesn't get any easier than that.

Lot of trouble. Easier to fly the flag on vehicle antennas, and more visible. Would be nice if the bastards couldn't go anywhere in the country (but especially DC) without seeing them.

N6ATF
03-22-2010, 10:03 PM
$4.95 for a vehicle magnet. Doesn't get any easier than that.

About to buy one, yep.

Lone_Gunman
03-23-2010, 12:09 AM
In related news, I'll be a paying participant in upcoming Brady and LCAV symposiums on effective grassroots outreach and litigation. That's ok, too, right?

Please please please please do something like getting a bunch of DVDs of No Guns For Negros from the JPFO, printing up some of those cheap CD/DVD sticky labels saying "Gun Control Now!" and passing out the DVDs there. It would be awesome. It would be amazing.

inbox485
03-23-2010, 11:45 AM
Regardless of Dr. P.'s supreme douchiness, I still think it's a good idea and will participate. I couldn't care less about his reward but I like the idea of the White House receiving thousands of DTOM flags.

^^^ This ^^^. The guy gives me the creeps, and I have my suspicions regarding his business model, but I'd rather not ignore a good activity just because it is sponsored by a guy that has done things I don't care for. The NRA has done things I don't care for, but I continue to be a member. Piazza has done things I don't care for, but I continue to get his mailings. The reason for both is that they do some good things.

wildhawker
03-23-2010, 12:09 PM
NRA wasn't found to have damaged others through fraud. NRA has a record of some policy decisions I don't agree with (including ILA's selection of Paul Clement for McDonald orals), but they don't play hide the salami with its customers.

There's a big difference between matters of policy, where reasonable people can disagree, and purposefully damaging and misleading others to better yourself financially.

ZombieTactics
03-23-2010, 12:37 PM
NRA wasn't found to have damaged others through fraud. NRA has a record of some policy decisions I don't agree with (including ILA's selection of Paul Clement for McDonald orals), but they don't play hide the salami with its customers.

There's a big difference between matters of policy, where reasonable people can disagree, and purposefully damaging and misleading others to better yourself financially.

Please understand I am only trying to keep this honest and factual.

Piazza was never actually charged with a crime of any sort. He was sued and settled. A total of THREE parties (out of a couple dozen, from what I understand) joined the class action suit. Quite a few people received full refunds without any hassle or litigation. I've spoke to one such who has nothing but good to say about how he was treated. Piazza's great "crime" here seems not to be one of deliberate wrongdoing, but of incredible hubris (stupidity maybe?) and ignorance of how difficult real estate development can be.

The NRA has arguably at times done things which arguably have set back gun rights in this country. Even so, on balance they are a force for good and ultimately on the right side of things, which is why I have no problem supporting them.

inbox485
03-23-2010, 1:02 PM
NRA wasn't found to have damaged others through fraud. NRA has a record of some policy decisions I don't agree with (including ILA's selection of Paul Clement for McDonald orals), but they don't play hide the salami with its customers.

There's a big difference between matters of policy, where reasonable people can disagree, and purposefully damaging and misleading others to better yourself financially.

Agreed. I was saying that while they have both done things I have disliked, they also both do good things. To clarify, I was not saying that the good to bad ratios were similar or that the magnitudes/severities were comparable.

greasemonkey
03-23-2010, 1:10 PM
I don't know, ZombieT might be able to prove you wrong, he thinks pretty highly of Doctor Pizza.


I've heard Piazza enough with my own ears to know that no one has a higher opinion of him than himself.

ZombieTactics
03-23-2010, 1:23 PM
I don't know, ZombieT might be able to prove you wrong, he thinks pretty highly of Doctor Pizza.
That's funny, but not exactly true. I just like to keep things straight. I don't think "highly" of Piazza, but even weird people with 70's mustaches don't deserve the McCarthy treatment. I feel no differently about Gabe Suarez, Chuck Taylor or any number of "personalities" who have somewhat spotty reputations or have had all sorts of exaggerated claims made about them.

wildhawker
03-23-2010, 2:15 PM
http://www.onpointnews.com/NEWS/firearms-qdisneylandq-fraud-case-settles-for-8m.html

greasemonkey
03-23-2010, 3:10 PM
I really don't know too many people losing and paying out $8.8 million class action suits that aren't guilty. Perhaps 'someone' here will explain to us how the broken legal system gave Pizza a bad name by wrongfully deciding this case.

jdberger
03-23-2010, 3:12 PM
To be fair, it was a settlement.

The legal system didn't "decide" anything.

That said, I don't think that Dr. Piazza should have much of a role in CA gun politics. To paraphrase Bill, "too much color".

inbox485
03-23-2010, 3:12 PM
inbox, it's difficult to reconcile the differences between someone literally screwing people for millions by fraud and the disagreeable policy or tactical decisions of a Board-run (c)4.

Agreed, which I why I wouldn't even try. My point was to take good ideas and judge them in of themselves rather than reject based on the source. I share your sentiments toward FS as an org, but I'd play along with the Brady Campaign if they ever had a good idea.

I think the Don't Tread on Me campaign is almost if not entirely symbolic, not of huge value, and has a high probability of going down in history with gas strikes and things like that. But the idea of a million or two flags showing up in the mail does send a message. I think he should have stuck with the original tea bag mailing idea since I like the metaphor of tea bagging certain out of line public servants, but I think this campaign in a void and in of itself is a good thing.

http://www.onpointnews.com/NEWS/firearms-qdisneylandq-fraud-case-settles-for-8m.html

Oh no. They mentioned "PONZI"!!!! I think they owe a certain person a 3 page explanation or else he might get his big girl panties in a bind and start name calling.

BTW - Thanks for finding that. I didn't have it handy and didn't feel like finding it.

greasemonkey
03-23-2010, 3:18 PM
My bad, thanks for clearing that up. Too much color is a very, very nice way to put it :)

To be fair, it was a settlement.

The legal system didn't "decide" anything.

That said, I don't think that Dr. Piazza should have much of a role in CA gun politics. To paraphrase Bill, "too much color".

ZombieTactics
03-23-2010, 3:41 PM
...Oh no. They mentioned "PONZI"!!!! I think they owe a certain person a 3 page explanation or else he might get his big girl panties in a bind and start name calling. ...
... 'cuz the media always gets it right, especially where gun rights advocates are concerned. All they forgot was to mention was all the "assault rifles" and "militia style training". I expect the media to have no regard for simple accuracy, but better from my fellow CalGunners.

For the record ... unlike some ... I say what I have to say openly rather than sniping behind people's backs and hiding behind the cowardly "ignore" button.

dirtnap
03-23-2010, 4:13 PM
FS is great, thats one of the many ranges in my avitar. However, Piazza did ruin my cert of completion by putting a bunch of pictures of HIMSELF from the 90's across 50% of the 8.5 x 11 page! I was excited to see the cert...man was that a let down.

inbox485
03-23-2010, 5:20 PM
... 'cuz the media always gets it right, especially where gun rights advocates are concerned. All they forgot was to mention was all the "assault rifles" and "militia style training". I expect the media to have no regard for simple accuracy, but better from my fellow CalGunners.

For the record ... unlike some ... I say what I have to say openly rather than sniping behind people's backs and hiding behind the cowardly "ignore" button.

For the record I said what I thought of your opinion quite openly, but it got censored.

I don't mind arguing or even flat wasting my time with people when they are at least civil, but when the name calling starts, I'm done. Calling me a coward won't change that.

ZombieTactics
03-23-2010, 5:28 PM
... Calling me a coward ... Well it seems that I am off of ignore, so I'll retract that appellation. :-)