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SigEquinox
03-16-2010, 6:00 PM
Hello,

I'd love to hear some opinions on this hypothetical scenario:

Your primary home defense gun can only legally use 10 round (or less) magazines. You have some hi cap magazines for it. Whenever you are in the public you only use the 10 rounders.

But for home defense, you wonder which would be better:

1. Stay legal and use 10 rounders and hope 10 rounds is enough in a burglary, home invasion, etc.

2. Use high caps, have more rounds to fire in a burglary, home invasion, etc., but also possibly face legal issues after the shooting when law enforcement arrives.

There probably isn't a completely correct answer to this. I think I could argue both sides, and am really undecided myself. What do you all think?

stan
03-16-2010, 6:02 PM
remove the pistol grip, flash hider, and buttstock, and put the original magazine release back on, before the police arrive, and keep your mouth shut?


ETA: i'm joking. don't do illegal things. if you have >10rd magazines, use them in a featureless build.

Sinestr
03-16-2010, 6:04 PM
Troll ?

lumwilliam
03-16-2010, 6:05 PM
I think in most home invasion scenarios, if you can't get the job done in 10 + 1, you're in trouble!

If you've got legal, pre ban standard size pistol magazines, then you're OK. On the other hand, if you do not own any magazines larger than 10 rounds, it's illegal to go out and buy them. I have a hard time imagining the HD scenario that I would need a 12 or 15 round pistol magazine to be prepared for. I'd sooner have a couple of backup mags stashed next in my nightstand if I was anticipating a potential group assault.

SigEquinox
03-16-2010, 6:05 PM
remove the pistol grip, flash hider, and buttstock, and put the original magazine release back on, before the police arrive, and keep your mouth shut?

I didn't specify what type of gun. Interesting thought if the gun is an EBR, but what if it's a pistol?

five.five-six
03-16-2010, 6:06 PM
remove the pistol grip, flash hider, and buttstock, and put the original magazine release back on, before the police arrive, and keep your mouth shut?


ehh, I don't know if I reccomend this... IMO, this sort of deception is nothing but trouble...

SigEquinox
03-16-2010, 6:06 PM
Troll ?

Not a troll. I'm really interested in what people think.

Shotgun Man
03-16-2010, 6:06 PM
What kind of gun are you talking about?

I guess your hypo assumes an AR variant?

Please further define your hypo.

ETA: Wow-- seven responses inside of five minutes.

five.five-six
03-16-2010, 6:07 PM
I didn't specify what type of gun. Interesting thought if the gun is an EBR, but what if it's a pistol?

wellif it's a pistol, there is no issue with using your leagaly owned HI-Cap mags in it ever that I am aware of

SigEquinox
03-16-2010, 6:10 PM
I think in most home invasion scenarios, if you can't get the job done in 10 + 1, you're in trouble!

If you've got legal standard size magazines, then you're OK. On the other hand, if you do not own any magazines larger than 10 rounds, it's illegal to go out and buy them. I have a hard time imagining the HD scenario that I would need a 12 or 15 round pistol magazine to be prepared for. I'd sooner have a couple of backup mags stashed next in my nightstand if I was anticipating a potential group assault.

Good point. That said, what got me thinking about such a scenario are reports on how many rounds LEOs often use in a gun fight, and they're trained. My concern is that a regular citizen would panic and keep firing at their opponent(s).

To play devil's advocate, why are we Cal Guns people so against the 10 round cap if it's not advantageous in terms of self defense? Just so we can change magazines less often at the range??

I Like Guns
03-16-2010, 6:10 PM
Say goodbye to your so-called gun rights if you do.

We are law-abiding citizens here. If we weren't then we wouldn't care what the law says since we wouldn't follow the law anyways.

Hang around a bit... we're good people.

stan
03-16-2010, 6:13 PM
I didn't specify what type of gun. Interesting thought if the gun is an EBR, but what if it's a pistol?

you specified that it can only use 10rd magazines. that would eliminate pistols as generally speaking there are no rules against using your legally owned standard / high capacity magazines in a glock / beretta / etc. the limit on use of >10rd magazines generally applies to bullet-buttoned weapons where evil features are an issue.

and my post about breaking it down into a featureless was in jest, i don't condone doing things that are illegal and then hoping you can sneak out of it.

lumwilliam
03-16-2010, 6:17 PM
remove the pistol grip, flash hider, and buttstock, and put the original magazine release back on, before the police arrive, and keep your mouth shut?

I think we have a responsibility here at Calguns not to let ourselves be baited into offering advice that may be illegal. Sure, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 anyday, but I'm not going to suggest to anybody that they break the law without a pretty good reason.

Shotgun Man
03-16-2010, 6:17 PM
I think in most home invasion scenarios, if you can't get the job done in 10 + 1, you're in trouble!

If you've got legal, pre ban standard size pistol magazines, then you're OK. On the other hand, if you do not own any magazines larger than 10 rounds, it's illegal to go out and buy them. I have a hard time imagining the HD scenario that I would need a 12 or 15 round pistol magazine to be prepared for. I'd sooner have a couple of backup mags stashed next in my nightstand if I was anticipating a potential group assault.

In cop shootings, I've seen many clearance letters the cops get from the DA deciding it was a lawful use of force.

Routinely, these cops are shooting 9mm and nearly or fully expend their large capacity mags.

So why a homeowner should be expected to restrict his rate of fire to that less of cop who believed his life is in danger is beyond me.

SigEquinox
03-16-2010, 6:26 PM
In cop shootings, I've seen many clearance letters the cops get from the DA deciding it was a lawful use of force.

Routinely, these cops are shooting 9mm and nearly or fully expend their large capacity mags.

So why a homeowner should be expected to restrict his rate of fire to that less of cop who believed his life is in danger is beyond me.

I would tend to agree.

stan: As for handguns, maybe I wrongly assumed you can't use them in CA with >10 magazines. Even though a CA pistol cannot be bought with >10 magazines, and selling them is illegal, if you happen to have them, it's ok to use them? If true, this I didn't know.

lumwilliam: As for asking for opinions about something possibly illegal, the question was about an emergency hypothetical situation where doing what's legal and doing what's safer are at odds. In many situations in life, one has to choose the lesser of two evils.

We talk about SHTF situations often on this site. What I am describing, an invasion of your home where you feel your life is threatened, IS a SHTF situation, just on a smaller scale (e.g. it's limited to inside your home).

So I think my question was fine :)

Bt Doctur
03-16-2010, 6:31 PM
Forget what the rules are. Just drop some empty legal mags on the floor when your done.Remember that the empty cases have to equal the number of mags on the floor.A 30 rd should not be illegal.

B Strong
03-16-2010, 6:48 PM
I didn't specify what type of gun. Interesting thought if the gun is an EBR, but what if it's a pistol?

If the pistol doesn't fall under the AW characteristic definition, you can use any lawfully owned high-caps.

CSACANNONEER
03-16-2010, 7:10 PM
I didn't specify what type of gun. Interesting thought if the gun is an EBR, but what if it's a pistol?

Like what? My non-AW AK, I'll stick with 10 round mags and stay legal. My non-AW Mac, well it has a 32 round mag in it right now and it's legal. My S&W Sigma, has 3 17 round mags ready to go. My G21 has several 13 round mags. All of these are legal to own and use at home or at the range. I don't quite understand what your issue is unless you're talking about a non-AW pistol with a mag well outside of the pistol grip and a fixed mag.

SigEquinox
03-16-2010, 7:19 PM
Like what? My non-AW AK, I'll stick with 10 round mags and stay legal. My non-AW Mac, well it has a 32 round mag in it right now and it's legal. My S&W Sigma, has 3 17 round mags ready to go. My G21 has several 13 round mags. All of these are legal to own and use at home or at the range. I don't quite understand what your issue is unless you're talking about a non-AW pistol with a mag well outside of the pistol grip and a fixed mag.

I was talking about any gun you might use for your primary self-defense weapon, your go-to weapon. Depending on the person, this could be a pistol, a rifle, a shotgun, etc.

I know it's illegal to put a high cap magazine in an OLL with BB. It seems many people would ignore such laws in a SHTF situation. But what about a home invasion?

I *thought* it was illegal to put a high cap magazine in a pistol, unless you bought the pistol and mags for it before the ban. If you bought the pistol after the ban, which they can determine because it is registered, is it not illegal to have a >10 mag in it?

If I'm wrong, please educate me. I am NOT trying to spread FUD.

Gio
03-16-2010, 7:24 PM
I was talking about any gun you might use for your primary self-defense weapon, your go-to weapon.

I know it's illegal to put a high cap magazine in an OLL with BB. It seems many people would ignore such laws in a SHTF situation. But what about a home invasion?

I *thought* it was illegal to put a high cap magazine in a pistol, unless you bought the pistol and mags for it before the ban. If you bought the pistol after the ban, which they can determine because it is registered, is it not illegal to have a >10 mag in it?

If I'm wrong, please educate me. I am NOT trying to spread FUD.

So let's say you had some Glock 17 mags back in 1999 and you just bought a Glock 17 3rd Gen this last summer. Would it be illegal to use your pre-ban mags in that G17? Nope, perfectly legal to do so. If it was a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip then you are in violation. So if you have something that mags were out before the ban and it is okay to use.

-Gio

bwiese
03-16-2010, 7:26 PM
I would tend to agree.

stan: As for handguns, maybe I wrongly assumed you can't use them in CA with >10 magazines. Even though a CA pistol cannot be bought with >10 magazines, and selling them is illegal, if you happen to have them, it's ok to use them? If true, this I didn't know.

Correct. You suffered from a common misconception.

There's no general prohibition using old legally-owned/legally-acquired hicap mags in new firearms.

Many of us in fact do this. In 1999, I bought loads of hicap mags for guns I didn't even own yet. Now I'm buying some of those guns :)

The only exception is using hicap mags in a rifle with a maglock/Bullet Button because that might trigger AW status.

Pyrodyne
03-16-2010, 7:27 PM
I *thought* it was illegal to put a high cap magazine in a pistol, unless you bought the pistol and mags for it before the ban. If you bought the pistol after the ban, which they can determine because it is registered, is it not illegal to have a >10 mag in it?

If I'm wrong, please educate me. I am NOT trying to spread FUD.

If you owned the high cap magazines before the ban, you can use them in any matching firearm, BB non-AW's excepted. If you bought them after the ban, you broke the law. If you have LE credentials you can have as many as you want. If you had LE credentials and purchased the high cap magazines with those credentials which you no longer have, you can still use those magazines.

Anything I miss?

ElvenSoul
03-16-2010, 7:28 PM
uhhh you should look into owning a .458 socom and a regular 5.56 AR. Lets just say .458 socom 10 rounders are nice to have.

Toast
03-16-2010, 7:35 PM
Or a Beowulf upper... Same deal.


My next gun is going to be a Beo :ninja:

N_S
03-16-2010, 7:36 PM
If 10 rounds isn't enough either you can't shoot or you shouldn't live across the street from SkyNet.

SigEquinox
03-16-2010, 7:39 PM
If 10 rounds isn't enough either you can't shoot or you shouldn't live across the street from SkyNet.

I respectfully disagree. I guess you missed my point and Shotgun Man's point:

Originally Posted by Shotgun Man
In cop shootings, I've seen many clearance letters the cops get from the DA deciding it was a lawful use of force.

Routinely, these cops are shooting 9mm and nearly or fully expend their large capacity mags.

So why a homeowner should be expected to restrict his rate of fire to that less of cop who believed his life is in danger is beyond me.

Originally posted by me:
what got me thinking about such a scenario are reports on how many rounds LEOs often use in a gun fight, and they're trained. My concern is that a regular citizen would panic and keep firing at their opponent(s).

To play devil's advocate, why are we Cal Guns people so against the 10 round cap if it's not advantageous in terms of self defense? Just so we can change magazines less often at the range??

Meplat
03-16-2010, 7:44 PM
Jeez! He said he was jokin in the first post. Everyone seem to have collars buttoned too tight tonight!:rolleyes:

I think we have a responsibility here at Calguns not to let ourselves be baited into offering advice that may be illegal. Sure, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 anyday, but I'm not going to suggest to anybody that they break the law without a pretty good reason.

Saym14
03-16-2010, 7:45 PM
it is NOT illegal to own and use Hi Cap mags if you owned them before.

Sniper3142
03-16-2010, 7:48 PM
If 10 rounds isn't enough either you can't shoot or you shouldn't live across the street from SkyNet.

THIS.

And NEVER use an illegal firearm in ANY situation. To do so would open yourself up to multiple legal issues (in addition to whatever situation required the use of deadly force).

And just because the police sometimes need to shoot at a suspect 41 times just to hit him 3 doesn't mean everyone will. Practice and train properly with your legally configured firearm. Remember that there might be people in and around you (other families living nearby, people walking outside your residence, etc) so spraying multiple rounds is NOT the right thing to do.

Stay Safe
Stay Legal

:)

stan
03-16-2010, 7:48 PM
it is NOT illegal to own and use Hi Cap mags if you owned them before.

:kest::lurk5::hide::fud:

Meplat
03-16-2010, 7:57 PM
Before you give advice like this without using the just joking disclaimer, you should at least know what you are talking about. There is more than one way the drop mags could be proven to not be the mags the brass was fired from. Not good to lie to the cops in a self defense shooting. Keep your mouth shut but dont lie and dont tamper with evidence. Talk through your lawyer.

Forget what the rules are. Just drop some empty legal mags on the floor when your done.Remember that the empty cases have to equal the number of mags on the floor.A 30 rd should not be illegal.

lumwilliam
03-16-2010, 7:57 PM
In cop shootings, I've seen many clearance letters the cops get from the DA deciding it was a lawful use of force.

Routinely, these cops are shooting 9mm and nearly or fully expend their large capacity mags.

So why a homeowner should be expected to restrict his rate of fire to that less of cop who believed his life is in danger is beyond me.

I'm hoping someone in law enforcement can weigh in. From what I read on the news, it seems like the cops are under a different set of directives. As a civilian, my legal responsibility is to shoot to stop the threat. I'm thinking in most cases, if I open up with 20 rounds on an intruder, I might be in some big trouble. I read in the papers about police on the other hand, where often a group of officers confronted by a weapon wielding perp, will all unload their entire magazines. I read about 50-90 shots being fired, sometimes at a person with a knife. I don't know if we can make a fair comparison between what you or I would do in our home vs. what police would do when confronted with a dangerous suspect.

Shotgun Man
03-16-2010, 8:10 PM
If 10 rounds isn't enough either you can't shoot or you shouldn't live across the street from SkyNet.

If that's your true opinion, then the Brady Campaign might just have a spot for you.

five.five-six
03-16-2010, 8:22 PM
it is NOT illegal to own and use Hi Cap mags if you owned them before.


or 2007 for that matter, statute of limitations is only 3 years. either way I hav had all mine since b4 2000

Meplat
03-16-2010, 8:22 PM
It is exactly the same standard for cops and civilians. Cops are trained to shoot to stop the threat. Once an armed threat is engaged they are trained to keep shooting until the threat quits moving. It's hard to quit moving while multiple hi-cap mags are being emptied into your body. Generally everyone fires until dry. 50-90 is small potatoes. That's generally more like the miss count, with 20-60 hits. As long as your assailant is moving and within reach of a weapon you are justified in shooting. It's just that most citizens are not that vicious, and they usually don't want to run dry because they dont have backup.





I'm hoping someone in law enforcement can weigh in. From what I read on the news, it seems like the cops are under a different set of directives. As a civilian, my legal responsibility is to shoot to stop the threat. I'm thinking in most cases, if I open up with 20 rounds on an intruder, I might be in some big trouble. I read in the papers about police on the other hand, where often a group of officers confronted by a weapon wielding perp, will all unload their entire magazines. I read about 50-90 shots being fired, sometimes at a person with a knife. I don't know if we can make a fair comparison between what you or I would do in our home vs. what police would do when confronted with a dangerous suspect.

N_S
03-16-2010, 8:22 PM
If that's your true opinion, then the Brady Campaign might just have a spot for you.

Ok let me rephrase my statement. 10 rounds should be enough but 20 is better.

I mean in most cases the perps scatter after the first couple rounds are fired anyway. They usually don't expect an armed response of any kind.

Meplat
03-16-2010, 8:27 PM
What if it's a drug gang on a retaliation raid at the wrong address? It happens.



Ok let me rephrase my statement. 10 rounds should be enough but 20 is better.

I mean in most cases the perps scatter after the first couple rounds are fired anyway. They usually don't expect an armed response of any kind.

Glock22Fan
03-16-2010, 8:34 PM
I'm really concerned by these people who think that ten round mags won't do the job. I wonder if all the people who have relied on 1911's for a hundred years feel about having to rely on 7 (or 8) round mags?

Oh yes, they think that 8 .45 ACP's are more effective than 16 9mm's.

Practice a bit folks, and the BG's won't even notice the pause as you reload.

And remember, cops are often shooting outside, or in public places (such as across a car park in the Hollywood Bank Robbery). In a home invasion, you will be shooting at much closer ranges. Thirty rounds across your bedroom does seem somewhat excessive, unless the bad guy is a politician.

Glock22Fan
03-16-2010, 8:35 PM
What if it's a drug gang on a retaliation raid at the wrong address? It happens.

Then they've probably scored a half dozen full-autos, and no amount of high cap mags will save you.

Shotgun Man
03-16-2010, 8:42 PM
I'm really concerned by these people who think that ten round mags won't do the job. I wonder if all the people who have relied on 1911's for a hundred years feel about having to rely on 7 (or 8) round mags?

Oh yes, they think that 8 .45 ACP's are more effective than 16 9mm's.

Practice a bit folks, and the BG's won't even notice the pause as you reload.

And remember, cops are often shooting outside, or in public places (such as across a car park in the Hollywood Bank Robbery). In a home invasion, you will be shooting at much closer ranges. Thirty rounds across your bedroom does seem somewhat excessive, unless the bad guy is a politician.

You're arguing that mags should limited. Don't you see that is simply ridiculous?

Really, the brady bunch might enlist your service.

N_S
03-16-2010, 8:53 PM
Watch it with the friendly fire folks, we're all on the same side here.

I think we can all agree that we should be allowed to have higher capacity magazines.
But the point still never the less stands that in MOST cases, even though more is better the perps scatter after only a couple rounds. Therefore if you have a gun for home defense those extra 2-10 rounds would certainly help but they could get you in serious trouble after the fact.
That and a police presence of some kind is a given. So a little precaution in terms of law compliance could potentially go a long way.

If it were legal I'd say go nuts, have a 100 round magazine if you like.
But to me breaking the law to get something that would only help you marginally in a particularly unlikely scenario (IE a professional assault by multiple determined and well-armed assailants in which case you'd be in trouble no matter how well equipped you are), when a law enforcement presence after the fact isn't a recommendation I'd make.

Meplat
03-16-2010, 9:01 PM
Strange that a Glock 22 fan is knocking hi-caps? I have a Calico 950 RAW with both 50 and 100 round mags. But my bedside guns are an 8rnd 12ga pump loaded with #9 shot (because I can't find #12), and an 8rd 38 super or six rnd .357 smith. I don't double tap, every shot is aimed. Murphy's law says no matter how much capacity you have, you will run dry at the worst possible moment!

BTW: One of my favorite salutations is "May all your enemies be on full auto".;)

I was just trying to say it never hurts to overestimate your opponent.






Then they've probably scored a half dozen full-autos, and no amount of high cap mags will save you.

Seesm
03-16-2010, 9:16 PM
Thirty rounds across your bedroom does seem somewhat excessive, unless the bad guy is a politician.\

FUNNY STUFF there... But yeah I have to agree on over 10 round mags is the way to go.... It is a dumb law that we can use them how we please... I have old std cap (hi cap) mags too but only can use them in my Kel-tec and my new featurless build but we shoudl be able to use them in any rifle...

Meplat
03-16-2010, 9:21 PM
I have a bunch of 20 & 30 rounders for my Mini-14 and no one seems to care. I guess it's just not black and scarry enough?



\

FUNNY STUFF there... But yeah I have to agree on over 10 round mags is the way to go.... It is a dumb law that we can use them how we please... I have old std cap (hi cap) mags too but only can use them in my Kel-tec and my new featurless build but we shoudl be able to use them in any rifle...

Netbum
03-16-2010, 9:30 PM
I thought that's why they stopped using the .45, Not enough firepower?
Obviously has more stopping power that a 9.
But you get more chances ...:p

Lead-Thrower
03-16-2010, 10:14 PM
I thought that's why they stopped using the .45, Not enough firepower?
Obviously has more stopping power that a 9.
But you get more chances ...:p

Not another 9mm vs. .45 discussion. :beatdeadhorse5: :willy_nilly:

SigEquinox
03-16-2010, 10:30 PM
Watch it with the friendly fire folks, we're all on the same side here.

I think we can all agree that we should be allowed to have higher capacity magazines.
But the point still never the less stands that in MOST cases, even though more is better the perps scatter after only a couple rounds. Therefore if you have a gun for home defense those extra 2-10 rounds would certainly help but they could get you in serious trouble after the fact.
That and a police presence of some kind is a given. So a little precaution in terms of law compliance could potentially go a long way.

If it were legal I'd say go nuts, have a 100 round magazine if you like.
But to me breaking the law to get something that would only help you marginally in a particularly unlikely scenario (IE a professional assault by multiple determined and well-armed assailants in which case you'd be in trouble no matter how well equipped you are), when a law enforcement presence after the fact isn't a recommendation I'd make.

Let's hope just seeing the home owner with a gun causes him to run.

Let's hope, in case it doesn't, that your shot placement is good and the guy goes down with one shot fired.

Let's hope, in fact, that even though you are terrified and recently awaken, that you can hit the guy at all.

And let's hope there isn't more than one invader.

But hope doesn't always mimic reality. We hope there isn't a disaster, but we stock up on food and ammo anyway. Isn't that the general philosophy on this board? Hope for the best but prepare for the worst?

Therefore wanting the highest capacity mag possible in our go-to gun is very reasonable. The home owner justifiably wants to deploy a defense that has very best chance of survival.

That said, I do understand people being hesitant about the initial question I brought up. We are good people. We obey they law. Let's hope and pray we are never in a situation where our safety and survival is on the right, legality is on the left, and we *have* to choose a direction. And I'm glad some posters here feel safe with 10 rounds or even less. But my point still stands. Let's say the law prohibited >5 rounds. Are you still confident you could defend yourself in most situations? How about 3 rounds? I bet Jack Bauer could do it with just one round in the chamber :), but how about the rest of us? And yeah, it's perhaps silly to contemplate a law that restricted us to 5 or 3 rounds. But then I find it almost as silly that we are confined to 10.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that owning hi-cap mags isn't illegal and that putting them into a pistol, no matter when it was purchased, is ok. To me that makes a pistol much more viable for self-defense. A shotgun is great too. An EBR with only 10 rounds? For me, not so much. But admittedly the rifle isn't my first choice for other reasons (penetration of a rifle round vs. pistol). Ah, but what if your go-to gun was a rifle that uses pistol ammo?

Anyway, thanks for all of the info :)

Apocalypsenerd
03-16-2010, 10:36 PM
I'm glad to hear that owning hi-cap mags isn't illegal and that putting them into my pistol, no matter when I purchased that pistol, is ok.

That sounds inaccurate to me. Full capacity magazines on pistols are still illegal unless owned before the ban. That's why gun shops don't sell full-cap mags.

geeknow
03-16-2010, 10:41 PM
That sounds inaccurate to me. Full capacity magazines on pistols are still illegal unless owned before the ban. That's why gun shops don't sell full-cap mags.

there are exceptions to this rule.

most gun shops that I know of stock/sell standard capacity mags...providing the buyer has the correct 'creds.

Netbum
03-16-2010, 10:43 PM
What? I'm just replying to what I read.
Geez,Pardon the heck out of me...
I'll go back to lurking.

SigEquinox
03-16-2010, 10:56 PM
That sounds inaccurate to me. Full capacity magazines on pistols are still illegal unless owned before the ban. That's why gun shops don't sell full-cap mags.

I should have stated it more clearly. I should have said:


There's no general prohibition using old legally-owned/legally-acquired hicap mags in new firearms.


I still wonder, though... how could someone prove your magazine was made after 2000 and not before? Maybe the style of mag? (e.g. I don't think pmags existed before 2000). And what if you were caught with a magazine that could be proven to be newer? Is the law clear on that? I thought it only addressed manufacture, importation, or offering for sale/lend. I still wouldn't do it, but I did find the way the law is written to be curious.

GearHead
03-16-2010, 11:28 PM
Let's hope just seeing the home owner with a gun causes him to run.

Let's hope, in case it doesn't, that your shot placement is good and the guy goes down with one shot fired.

Let's hope, in fact, that even though you are terrified and recently awaken, that you can hit the guy at all.

And let's hope there isn't more than one invader.

But hope doesn't always mimic reality. We hope there isn't a disaster, but we stock up on food and ammo anyway. Isn't that the general philosophy on this board? Hope for the best but prepare for the worst?

Therefore wanting the highest capacity mag possible in our go-to gun is very reasonable. The home owner justifiably wants to deploy a defense that has very best chance of survival.

That said, I do understand people being hesitant about the initial question I brought up. We are good people. We obey they law. Let's hope and pray we are never in a situation where our safety and survival is on the right, legality is on the left, and we *have* to choose a direction. And I'm glad some posters here feel safe with 10 rounds or even less. But my point still stands. Let's say the law prohibited >5 rounds. Are you still confident you could defend yourself in most situations? How about 3 rounds? I bet Jack Bauer could do it with just one round in the chamber :), but how about the rest of us? And yeah, it's perhaps silly to contemplate a law that restricted us to 5 or 3 rounds. But then I find it almost as silly that we are confined to 10.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that owning hi-cap mags isn't illegal and that putting them into a pistol, no matter when it was purchased, is ok. To me that makes a pistol much more viable for self-defense. A shotgun is great too. An EBR with only 10 rounds? For me, not so much. But admittedly the rifle isn't my first choice for other reasons (penetration of a rifle round vs. pistol). Ah, but what if your go-to gun was a rifle that uses pistol ammo?

Anyway, thanks for all of the info :)

I hate to nitpick, but smaller caliber rifle rounds (like .223) penetrate WAY less than common pistol rounds.

Apocalypsenerd
03-16-2010, 11:35 PM
Certain newer weapons and newer magazines for older weapons would be easy to prove productions years I think.

I never even heard of the 5.7 until this year.

hawk81
03-17-2010, 2:52 AM
We are against it because limiting us to 10 rounds is unconstitutional and the guns were originally designed to hold more than 10 rounds.


Good point. That said, what got me thinking about such a scenario are reports on how many rounds LEOs often use in a gun fight, and they're trained. My concern is that a regular citizen would panic and keep firing at their opponent(s).

To play devil's advocate, why are we Cal Guns people so against the 10 round cap if it's not advantageous in terms of self defense? Just so we can change magazines less often at the range??

Ed_Hazard
03-17-2010, 3:13 AM
No, I believe he is advocating the old adage of "Run what ya Brung". What he is not advocating is that you break the law by useing illegally obtained Mags, and or tampering with evidence,or lieing to the police. If you are of a certain age their is no legal way for you to posses "Hi-Cap" mags and will be limited to 10 rdr's in your defense. So it would be best to concentrate on honing your skills with the equipment legaly available to you instead of lamenting the inability to posses the later.

In a perfect worl we would all be able to purchase those nifty neverending hollywood mags, but until that magical day arrives, we'll just have run what we brung. :thumbsup:
to newer manufacture mags and you'll see the differenc
EDIT: Well mags dont just pop out of thin air. It was ethier imported, manufactured or given to you after the ban. Most newer mags can be distinguished from their older counterparts. Some are outright date stamped whle others have design changes. Look at the rear of preban Glock mags as opposed to newer ones and you'll notice the difference.

Meplat
03-17-2010, 3:45 AM
Certain newer weapons and newer magazines for older weapons would be easy to prove productions years I think.

I never even heard of the 5.7 until this year.

But you can replace old parts with parts from newer production runs.

Glock22Fan
03-17-2010, 7:10 AM
You're arguing that mags should limited. Don't you see that is simply ridiculous?

Really, the brady bunch might enlist your service.

No I am not. Limiting magazines is an unnecessary harassment of absolutely no value whatsoever and one that infringes the second amendment. So why should I argue that high caps should be banned?

I'm just saying that the reality is that it doesn't make a great deal of difference.

Gerry Miculek can reload a revolver and get twelve aimed shots off in under three seconds.

If I am arguing anything, it is that the magazine limitation is pointless, valueless and unnecessary. How does that make me a Bradyite?

GrizzlyGuy
03-17-2010, 7:26 AM
I still wonder, though... how could someone prove your magazine was made after 2000 and not before? Maybe the style of mag? (e.g. I don't think pmags existed before 2000). And what if you were caught with a magazine that could be proven to be newer? Is the law clear on that? I thought it only addressed manufacture, importation, or offering for sale/lend. I still wouldn't do it, but I did find the way the law is written to be curious.

Here is an interesting post (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3856919&postcount=108) by an attorney and prosecutor related to this question.

See also from the FAQ: Magazine Questions (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions)

In terms of a post-SHTF situation (vs. a just-in-case-SHTF-happens scenario), each individual would have to make a risk-based decision related to whether or not they want to continue to comply with the firearms laws. Note that there are many Common Misconceptions about Disasters: Panic, the “Disaster Syndrome,” and Looting (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=280119). Summary: unless it is a long-term or very unusual SHTF scenario, or you happen to live in the middle of a high-crime area where unusually rapid and violent civil unrest is expected (e.g., Compton/Rodney King riots), the need to arm yourself to the teeth might be a lot less than most people think.

GearHead
03-17-2010, 7:27 AM
No, I believe he is advocating the old adage of "Run what ya Brung". What he is not advocating is that you break the law by useing illegally obtained Mags, and or tampering with evidence,or lieing to the police. If you are of a certain age their is no legal way for you to posses "Hi-Cap" mags and will be limited to 10 rdr's in your defense. So it would be best to concentrate on honing your skills with the equipment legaly available to you instead of lamenting the inability to posses the later.

In a perfect worl we would all be able to purchase those nifty neverending hollywood mags, but until that magical day arrives, we'll just have run what we brung. :thumbsup:
to newer manufacture mags and you'll see the differenc
EDIT: Well mags dont just pop out of thin air. It was ethier imported, manufactured or given to you after the ban. Most newer mags can be distinguished from their older counterparts. Some are outright date stamped whle others have design changes. Look at the rear of preban Glock mags as opposed to newer ones and you'll notice the difference.

Sigh. If you are 10 years old or younger right now then you might have an argument since you wouldn't have been alive before the ban. However, there was and still is no legal age at which you can receive magazines. My father could have gifted me dozens of standard cap AR mags when I was 2 years old and I could legally use them in a proper RAW/featureless build.

Well i would NOT reccomend anyone try this defense either, technically you could have imported the mags in 2007 and left them sitting in your safe...while you're still not legally allowed to use them, the statute of limitations on this kind of thing is 3 years in CA...so it's a gamble.

Also keep in mind you can use new mag parts to rebuild old ones. That is why PMags and the like (which are most assuredly younger than 10 years old) can exist in standard cap format in CA.

Sniper3142
03-17-2010, 7:47 AM
That sounds inaccurate to me. Full capacity magazines on pistols are still illegal unless owned before the ban. That's why gun shops don't sell full-cap mags.

No, that is accurate.

I can legally use my 15 round 9mm magazines that I purchased back in 1992 in a brand new pistol that I purchased yesterday. Just because a new pistol doesn't come with 10+ magazines, doesn't mean you can't use old ones in it.

Glock22Fan
03-17-2010, 7:47 AM
Strange that a Glock 22 fan is knocking hi-caps? I have a Calico 950 RAW with both 50 and 100 round mags. But my bedside guns are an 8rnd 12ga pump loaded with #9 shot (because I can't find #12), and an 8rd 38 super or six rnd .357 smith. I don't double tap, every shot is aimed. Murphy's law says no matter how much capacity you have, you will run dry at the worst possible moment!

BTW: One of my favorite salutations is "May all your enemies be on full auto".;)

I was just trying to say it never hurts to overestimate your opponent.

I'm not knocking high-caps and I use them in my G22.

I am totally against high cap bans of any type (is that black and white enough for all of you?) or any other ridiculous infringement of the RKBA.

If I'm ever facing down a BG, I'd prefer high-caps in my G22 - clearly that gives a slight edge - but I wouldn't feel undergunned or lose a lot of sleep if I had 8-round Wilson Combats in my 1911, or ten rounders in the Glock.

I'm not a 9mm fan, so I admit that if I had a 9mm handgun in my hand (or lesser caliber), I too would want every round I could get in the magazine.

And I know there have been police shootings with dozens of rounds being fired, but I think that there are also reports that say that the majority of gunfights are over in three rounds (anyone else seen that report?).

Let me say this again: I DO NOT AGREE WITH BANNING HIGH CAPACITY MAGAZINES -- ARE WE CLEAR ON THIS?

I Like Guns
03-17-2010, 9:38 AM
Watch it with the friendly fire folks, we're all on the same side here.

I think we can all agree that we should be allowed to have higher capacity magazines.
But the point still never the less stands that in MOST cases, even though more is better the perps scatter after only a couple rounds. Therefore if you have a gun for home defense those extra 2-10 rounds would certainly help but they could get you in serious trouble after the fact.
That and a police presence of some kind is a given. So a little precaution in terms of law compliance could potentially go a long way.

If it were legal I'd say go nuts, have a 100 round magazine if you like.
But to me breaking the law to get something that would only help you marginally in a particularly unlikely scenario (IE a professional assault by multiple determined and well-armed assailants in which case you'd be in trouble no matter how well equipped you are), when a law enforcement presence after the fact isn't a recommendation I'd make.

This.

I'm sure by now we got the anti's lurking. No need to give the impression that we condone illegal activities. We don't. We're law-abiding citizens which sets us apart from the criminals. If we were criminals, we wouldn't care about 10 round limits anyways.

Laws need to be changed so that the good guys can counter the bad guys... I know, I know, I'm singing to the choir.

motorhead
03-17-2010, 10:56 AM
leave l.e. entirely out of the picture. keep a shovel next to the rifle.

Aldemar
03-17-2010, 11:34 AM
Correct. You suffered from a common misconception.

There's no general prohibition using old legally-owned/legally-acquired hicap mags in new firearms.

Many of us in fact do this. In 1999, I bought loads of hicap mags for guns I didn't even own yet. Now I'm buying some of those guns :)

The only exception is using hicap mags in a rifle with a maglock/Bullet Button because that might trigger AW status.

I've got a couple of M1-A's - one old, one bought within the last 18 months; the mags I had for the old one are perfectly legal to use in the newer one and any other one I may purchase in the future.

The real problem seems to be with the AR-15 crowd or the newer shooters who weren't able to buy the standard cap mags by 1999.

Sam .223
03-17-2010, 11:41 AM
if you have a 30 make sure you have a 10/30 to insert in a hurry after the police are called and you should be ok. they won't be able to tell what mag you were useing, and it looks better for you if you have a couple 10/30s in the safe loaded and some unloaded, that way they can't say hey why is this mag full and you fire X amount of shots.

MAC USMC
03-17-2010, 12:10 PM
Many years ago, there was bank robbery with multiple crooks involved. The get-away driver could not start their car so they attempted to steal a nearby cab. The cab driver jumped out and ran away in a hail of bullets and was slightly wounded. He saw the crooks beating a couple to take their car, so he ran back, jumped into his cab and ran over two of the robbers. All of them were eventually captured due to the cabbies' intervention.

Of course, running over people with a motor vehicle is AGAINST THE LAW, but a greater evil and more heineous crime was prevented by this act.

Meplat
03-17-2010, 1:52 PM
I say again! If they want to go to the trouble they can tell which mags the brass was run through!


if you have a 30 make sure you have a 10/30 to insert in a hurry after the police are called and you should be ok. they won't be able to tell what mag you were useing, and it looks better for you if you have a couple 10/30s in the safe loaded and some unloaded, that way they can't say hey why is this mag full and you fire X amount of shots.

Liberty1
03-17-2010, 1:54 PM
The real problem seems to be with the AR-15 crowd or the newer shooters who weren't able to buy the standard cap mags by 1999.

Were they born after 01/01/2000? ;)

Shotgun Man
03-17-2010, 2:01 PM
I say again! If they want to go to the trouble they can tell which mags the brass was run through!

On polymer mags? They would leave toolmarks on brass?

Ca Patriot
03-17-2010, 2:05 PM
if you have a 30 make sure you have a 10/30 to insert in a hurry after the police are called and you should be ok. they won't be able to tell what mag you were useing, and it looks better for you if you have a couple 10/30s in the safe loaded and some unloaded, that way they can't say hey why is this mag full and you fire X amount of shots.



Are you talking about a Ruger Mini 30 ? If so, why wouldnt it be legal to have a 20 or 30 rd magazine for those rifles ? Possession is NOT illegal in CA

Meplat
03-17-2010, 5:13 PM
Any microscopic grit imbedded in the plastic would leave microscopic markings, yes. Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. Trying to lie to police in cases like this is like playing miniature golf in a mine field. Only if you can see absolutely no other way out.


On polymer mags? They would leave toolmarks on brass?

626Tony
03-17-2010, 5:19 PM
A nice 12ga 8 round Mossberg SG should do the trick for HD. Once the suspect hears that click from a round chambering its enough to get the suspects running more often than not; no shots needed !!

Glock22Fan
03-17-2010, 8:18 PM
Any microscopic grit imbedded in the plastic would leave microscopic markings, yes. Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. Trying to lie to police in cases like this is like playing miniature golf in a mine field. Only if you can see absolutely no other way out.

Don't lie. Unless you have been really stupid, there should be no need.

But a large number, perhaps the majority, of prisoners talked their way into jail.

Paradiddle
03-17-2010, 8:28 PM
What if it's a drug gang on a retaliation raid at the wrong address? It happens.

Then you are screwed with any handgun. Honestly - does anyone thing they've trained enough to wake out of a dead sleep, or even deep relaxation, and engage multiple perps who are primed and ready to rock? Unless you live in a constant state of high alert with trained dogs you are in deep doodoo if 5+ guys with full auto mac 10s come a knockin.

N_S
03-17-2010, 10:09 PM
Then you are screwed with any handgun. Honestly - does anyone thing they've trained enough to wake out of a dead sleep, or even deep relaxation, and engage multiple perps who are primed and ready to rock? Unless you live in a constant state of high alert with trained dogs you are in deep doodoo if 5+ guys with full auto mac 10s come a knockin.

And if you are that well equipped and vigilant I can only wonder who's feet you must have stepped on. :D

(I'm joking of course)

geeknow
03-18-2010, 5:14 AM
I still wonder, though... how could someone prove your magazine was made after 2000 and not before? Maybe the style of mag? (e.g. I don't think pmags existed before 2000). And what if you were caught with a magazine that could be proven to be newer? Is the law clear on that? I thought it only addressed manufacture, importation, or offering for sale/lend. I still wouldn't do it, but I did find the way the law is written to be curious.

its incredibly muddy here.

i have noticed that some mags made between 94-2000 are date stamped.

pmags, obviously are all made well after 2000, so unless you have a hi cap mag permit hanging on the wall...:cool:...

it is also my understanding that rebuilding your mags is perfectly legal.

it is also my understanding that the 'age' of the mag does not change as parts are gradually replaced.

Therefore, a mag consisting of all brand new parts could very well be a '25 year old mag'...which is wierd, but whatever...

it is also my understanding that the burden of proof is upon the State.

be safe. be smart.

g

geeknow
03-18-2010, 5:17 AM
Then you are screwed with any handgun. Honestly - does anyone thing they've trained enough to wake out of a dead sleep, or even deep relaxation, and engage multiple perps who are primed and ready to rock? Unless you live in a constant state of high alert with trained dogs you are in deep doodoo if 5+ guys with full auto mac 10s come a knockin.

if 5 guys with f/a come a knockin...

you are probably already in lots of trouble with the Police.

I would advise that you counter 5 f/a guns with your arms raised, and your lawyer nearby...