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View Full Version : two triggers - legal?


stan
03-16-2010, 5:35 PM
if you were to have two triggers that both acted normal, is there any reason it would be illegal? don't try and come up with hypotheticals on this being something funky. i'm saying just straight up, two triggers on one gun. both functional.

CCWFacts
03-16-2010, 5:36 PM
You mean like on a double-barrel shotgun? I think those are not too unusual, and they're legal, so long as there's no linkage between the two.

On something other than a double-barrel gun, I've never heard of it and it would be pretty strange.

stan
03-16-2010, 5:37 PM
no, single barrel gun. for this hypothetical, an ar-15. single barrel, two different triggers that will cause the gun to fire a round.

ChuckBooty
03-16-2010, 5:40 PM
no, single barrel gun. for this hypothetical, an ar-15. single barrel, two different triggers that will cause the gun to fire a round.

I don't see why not. Are you thinking OLL w/ maglock AR with an additional working trigger on the front pistol grip so you can get REAL CLOSE to full-auto speed?

stan
03-16-2010, 5:41 PM
if you must know, i'm thinking featureless AR with 1919 style spade grips. and a trigger on each spade grip.

stan
03-16-2010, 5:44 PM
OOOO! someone else has thought of this!!!!

so imagine this picture, but a featureless build.

https://policeguns.com/catalog/images/XLarge_Spade%20Grip%20AR15%20-%20M16.jpg

jamesob
03-16-2010, 6:35 PM
would the stock grip be considered a forward grip? i guess it would be. for some reason i like it.

D_fens
03-16-2010, 6:39 PM
OOOO! someone else has thought of this!!!!

so imagine this picture, but a featureless build.

https://policeguns.com/catalog/images/XLarge_Spade%20Grip%20AR15%20-%20M16.jpg

Is that considered a rifle under California Law? It doesn't look like it's "Shoulder Fired" (Assume you built it from a virgin receiver)

yoteassasin
03-16-2010, 6:48 PM
the (2) triggers use one actuating rod so your in the clear.. the only problem you would have is if one trigger could bypass the disconnect and it obviously cant. sooo it is still by nature a semi-auto

dantodd
03-16-2010, 10:16 PM
OOOO! someone else has thought of this!!!!

so imagine this picture, but a featureless build.


That IS a featureless build. The AW law only applied to rifles. That long gun is neither a rifle nor a shotgun.

stan
03-16-2010, 10:39 PM
That IS a featureless build. The AW law only applied to rifles. That long gun is neither a rifle nor a shotgun.

shush stop talking about non-rifle long guns. my thread about that got deleted :(

dantodd
03-16-2010, 10:43 PM
shush stop talking about non-rifle long guns. my thread about that got deleted :(

Your previous thread about that had to do with something VERY different than an AR with paddles. This gun is clean and won't cause any drama with DA's or BoF. You'll just have to carry some extra ammo every time you take it out because of all the people who will want to shoot it.

stan
03-16-2010, 10:47 PM
Your previous thread about that had to do with something VERY different than an AR with paddles. This gun is clean and won't cause any drama with DA's or BoF. You'll just have to carry some extra ammo every time you take it out because of all the people who will want to shoot it.

right but your point about it being a non-rifle long gun is identical to what i was talking about in my other thread. the gun in that thread did not have paddles, instead it just had a buffer tube that was not a buttstock.



anyhow heres one issue i would wonder about:

if the two triggers are rigged up so that pulling one resets the other, could that get sticky as far as a multiburst trigger? its possible that if designed a certain way, you could manipulate one trigger forward in order to fire. obviously if this were an issue, it could be dealt with though.....

stan
03-16-2010, 10:49 PM
Your previous thread about that had to do with something VERY different than an AR with paddles. This gun is clean and won't cause any drama with DA's or BoF. You'll just have to carry some extra ammo every time you take it out because of all the people who will want to shoot it.

and are you saying that you think its clean enough that the pistol grip (which is in the picture you commented on) would be a non-issue? what about the flash hider?

stan
03-16-2010, 10:54 PM
more reference photos of spade grips on ar-15

http://i43.tinypic.com/qq71gx.jpg

i think i would want to make the grips more like a pistol grip. and rather than paddle trigger, would try to figure out regular style triggers, one for each grip.

The Shadow
03-17-2010, 7:19 AM
OOOO! someone else has thought of this!!!!

so imagine this picture, but a featureless build.

https://policeguns.com/catalog/images/XLarge_Spade%20Grip%20AR15%20-%20M16.jpg

This might be considered an AOW.

OleCuss
03-17-2010, 7:27 AM
I doubt the vague resemblance of the grip and trigger situation to a MaDeuce is going to be endearing to law enforcement or the DA.

Based on what the experts are saying I'll assume it is absolutely legal - but I'd not want to be the one fending off the various agencies who are going to decide that if you are trying to make it look vaguely like a heavy machine gun, then it must be evil.

The Director
03-17-2010, 7:34 AM
That thing would be awesome with a Shrike beltfed conversion!

Ballistic043
03-17-2010, 7:39 AM
siamese!!!

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z96/M4builder/Siamese16X-1.jpg

The Director
03-17-2010, 7:42 AM
Woooooooow!!!!!

stan
03-17-2010, 8:51 AM
Based on what the experts are saying I'll assume it is absolutely legal - but I'd not want to be the one fending off the various agencies who are going to decide that if you are trying to make it look vaguely like a heavy machine gun, then it must be evil.

but 1919a4 is a complete non-issue. you can buy them in a storefront visited by LEO even. i call fud on this statement

stan
03-17-2010, 8:57 AM
This might be considered an AOW.

per 26 U.S.C. 5845(e):

any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

clearly not anything related to AOWs or AOW-like features.


and please lets not get into a discussion about the status of the picture. i don't want to get this thread shut down like the last one. this discussion is about 2 triggers on 1 FCG on 1 gun, and the picture is for illustrative purposes.

mdimeo
03-17-2010, 10:57 AM
Is there a statutory definition of thumbhole stock that this could fall under? That's all I can think of. My understanding is that hand-cranked repeated trigger puller thingies are legal, and this seems to be a similar concept.

I'd lose the pistol grip, though. maybe get one of those safety spring retention things from the early featurless OLL days (before monsterman came out).

-m@

stan
03-17-2010, 11:02 AM
Is there a statutory definition of thumbhole stock that this could fall under? That's all I can think of. My understanding is that hand-cranked repeated trigger puller thingies are legal, and this seems to be a similar concept.

I'd lose the pistol grip, though. maybe get one of those safety spring retention things from the early featurless OLL days (before monsterman came out).

-m@

nope it's been well-established that spade grips are not a thumbhole stock and not a pistol grip that protrudes beneath the action. its been dealt with on 1919a4s but the principle still applies IMO.

and hand cranked repeating triggers are designed to use one mechanism to fire a round at several different points in the motion of the mechanism. what i'm proposing is just two different triggers that act in the normal way. just that there is two of them, either of which can be utilized at a given time in a semiautomatic fashion.

grammaton76
07-19-2010, 3:30 PM
Hand-cranked repeating triggers are considered multi-burst trigger activators in CA, and thus prohibited via CPC 12031.

CSACANNONEER
07-19-2010, 3:39 PM
On something other than a double-barrel gun, I've never heard of it and it would be pretty strange.

I have several long guns with one barrel and two triggers. I don't think it's strange. In fact, set triggers have been around for hundreds of years!

bjl333
07-19-2010, 3:40 PM
I think your schoolmate might find life hard in the follow years, as courts are cracking down on charges like this. These cases when convicted makes them look good for reelection, so they'll try hard to put him away !!!

siamese!!!

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z96/M4builder/Siamese16X-1.jpg

I think there was more then beer involved to build this beast !!! But its a very cool idea ...

timdps
07-19-2010, 4:30 PM
I would certainly not want a pistol grip on the spade grip AR. And as others have said, it should be built with a virgin receiver. That said, I think that with some serious trigger work (shorter, lighter pull),you would be able to fire the standard configuration quicker than the spade grip configuration.

Spade grips also severely limit firing positions. You need to be prone or on a tripod to be stable enough to be accurate. Setting it on just the bipod means that your arms will be supporting a good portion of the weight AND holding it still enough to aim.




I think there was more then beer involved to build this beast !!! But its a very cool idea ...

One trigger pull firing two rounds is a machine gun

Vox
07-19-2010, 5:18 PM
is there a way someone could describe to me what a non-rifle/shotgun long gun is that would get someone in trouble without getting the thread in trouble?

383green
07-19-2010, 5:27 PM
is there a way someone could describe to me what a non-rifle/shotgun long gun is that would get someone in trouble without getting the thread in trouble?

I'll use a small font; hopefully nobody will notice what I write. :whistling:

This would be a long gun which is not designed to be fired from the shoulder. Examples include semi-automatic conversions of belt-fed machineguns such as the M1919A4 (but not the M1919A6, which has a shoulder stock) or M2HB.

dantodd
07-19-2010, 5:29 PM
I'll use a small font; hopefully nobody will notice what I write. :whistling:

This would be a long gun which is not designed to be fired from the shoulder. Examples include semi-automatic conversions of belt-fed machineguns such as the M1919A4 (but not the M1919A6, which has a shoulder stock) or M2HB.

He was asking about the kinds that MIGHT cause trouble, not the kinds that are fairly well understood.

I think the gun in question was a full featured AR with a buffer tube only and no butt stock but the buffer was designed to fit into a cup sewn into the shoulder of a vest. (Even with no butt it was clearly intended to be shoulder fired.

383green
07-19-2010, 5:38 PM
My two cents as a non-lawyer:

If there's any way to fire two rounds with a single pull of any trigger, it'll clearly fall under ATF's definition of a machinegun.

If the two separate triggers are linked in such a way that they act like one trigger that can be pulled with either finger, I think that should be safe. For example, if the two triggers are linked together such that both move when either is pulled, that should be OK.

If the triggers can move independently but they both pull the same sear+disconnector, such that pulling either or both fires the gun one time and then both must be released before it can be fired again, I think that should be OK, too.

If the two triggers operate fully independently with their own disconnectors, I'd worry that somebody may find some odd way to operate the triggers that makes the gun fall under the machinegun definition, or at least fail to clearly be outside of that definition.

Just for the record, the thumb spade on an M2HB is not two triggers; it's a single piece of metal that's fork-shaped in order to wrap around both sides of the buffer tube such that it can be pressed with either or both thumbs. I haven't handled or eyeballed one of the AR spade grip setups, but in the pictures above it appears to me that they also have a single trigger which is forked to be pressed by either/both thumbs.

383green
07-19-2010, 5:39 PM
He was asking about the kinds that MIGHT cause trouble, not the kinds that are fairly well understood.

I may have misunderstood his question. It seemed to me that he was asking what a non-rifle/non-shotgun long-gun is, at the most basic level. Well, I hope that at least one of us has answered his question(s)!

Cokebottle
07-19-2010, 8:15 PM
siamese!!!

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z96/M4builder/Siamese16X-1.jpg
That "semi-auto" mode is not semi-auto.

It fires two rounds per trigger pull, therefore, it is automatic and NFA.

command_liner
07-19-2010, 9:07 PM
Hmm, once again we are getting rather close to my theoretical discussion
with a left/right pair of AR15 rifles.

There exist both left- and right-hand versions of the AR. Put the two
together in close proximity with one grip, but 2 triggers. Each rifle
has a certain number of evil features, but neither one meets the "evil"
definition. Heck, one has a pistol grip, the other has a shoulder stock.
The two rifles have affinity -- say magnetic pins and wells -- but can
be separated without tools and can fire independently. Two triggers,
but both are operated at one time by one finger.

Sure, one would have to machine offset magazine wells, but so what.

When I finish my AR-Blunderbus I will get right on it.

Vox
07-19-2010, 10:44 PM
I may have misunderstood his question. It seemed to me that he was asking what a non-rifle/non-shotgun long-gun is, at the most basic level. Well, I hope that at least one of us has answered his question(s)!

I was indeed asking why the OP was being a bit "hush-hush" about it. Where do the legal problems come in for a non-rifle/shotgun long gun such as that which would be fired from a cup with a buffer tube connector?

glockwise2000
07-19-2010, 10:59 PM
Those pix are very interesting

:popcorn:

fd15k
07-19-2010, 11:02 PM
Reminds me of...
http://cdn1.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/spade-ak.png

stan
07-20-2010, 12:10 AM
is there a way someone could describe to me what a non-rifle/shotgun long gun is that would get someone in trouble without getting the thread in trouble?

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_KwtmW5ADclE/TBmAW0OE90I/AAAAAAAAAbM/3lEt2fDl_OM/s800/2010-06-16%2018.51.01.jpg

patriot_man
07-20-2010, 1:27 AM
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_KwtmW5ADclE/TBmAW0OE90I/AAAAAAAAAbM/3lEt2fDl_OM/s800/2010-06-16%2018.51.01.jpg

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

CalNRA
07-20-2010, 1:56 AM
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_KwtmW5ADclE/TBmAW0OE90I/AAAAAAAAAbM/3lEt2fDl_OM/s800/2010-06-16%2018.51.01.jpg

(public) range report? :D

Vox
07-20-2010, 8:04 AM
WHY is that illlegal? (assuming it had a bullet button or other maglock)

Hoologan
07-20-2010, 8:33 AM
Less than 30" OAL?

rero360
07-20-2010, 9:14 AM
siamese!!!

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z96/M4builder/Siamese16X-1.jpg

There is only two ways I can think something like that would work without seeing pics from the other side, one is that they removed the FCG from the top one and modified the bolt so that it had a fixed firing pin (wouldn't really work as you would have to modify the bolt so it wouldn't lock into battery, very bad thing to do) or they simply used a Full auto FCG and locked the trigger in the fire position.

Ape
07-20-2010, 9:51 AM
Obviously I'm not well versed by any means on California laws....... But surely a Sharps long gun with 2 triggers isn't illegal in Califonia is it???
First (rear) trigger sets the main trigger (front) to a very light pull for better accuracy. Been around for a very LONG time (think Custards unit and earlier) and it's a single shot weapon.

http://muzzleloadingandmore.com/products/rifles/sharps_rifles/index.htm#1874%20Super%20Deluxe

383green
07-20-2010, 10:18 AM
Set triggers aren't restricted.

Rekrab
07-20-2010, 1:10 PM
If he were to ditch the pistol grip I would think his Paddle-AR would fall under the classification of a crew serviced weapon just like the aforementioned 1919a4 and the M2HB.

If you have the funds to build it and defend it, go for it I say. But I'm sure as hell not a lawyer.

ke6guj
07-20-2010, 1:18 PM
Less than 30" OAL?if it is not a semi-automatic centerfire RIFLE, the 30" rule does not apply.

If he were to ditch the pistol grip I would think his Paddle-AR would fall under the classification of a crew serviced weapon just like the aforementioned 1919a4 and the M2HB.
There is no "crew served weapon" classification in the law.

CSACANNONEER
07-20-2010, 1:32 PM
WHY is that illlegal? (assuming it had a bullet button or other maglock)

Why would you want to put a BB on it? We all know that since it is not a "rifle" or a "handgun", it can not be an AW under California law. Please, feel free to cite a law which proves me wrong. We all would like to see it if it is hiding somewhere.

If he were to ditch the pistol grip I would think his Paddle-AR would fall under the classification of a crew serviced weapon just like the aforementioned 1919a4 and the M2HB.

If you have the funds to build it and defend it, go for it I say. But I'm sure as hell not a lawyer.

As Jack pointed out, there is no " crew served weapons" classification. Of course, the guns you mentioned are no "rifle/shotgun" title one long guns just like stan's AR build pictured above.

Rekrab
07-21-2010, 11:46 AM
As Jack pointed out, there is no " crew served weapons" classification. Of course, the guns you mentioned are no "rifle/shotgun" title one long guns just like stan's AR build pictured above.

So the M2 and the 191A4 are title 1 and by being title 1 not restricted by the laws that affect typical rifles and shotguns? Interesting. I had been misinformed, thanks for setting me straight.

dantodd
07-21-2010, 12:15 PM
So the M2 and the 191A4 are title 1 and by being title 1 not restricted by the laws that affect typical rifles and shotguns? Interesting. I had been misinformed, thanks for setting me straight.

They are simply not rifles or shotguns. A rifle is designed to be fired from the shoulder and a shotgun is designed to fire fixed shotshells.