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N_S
03-16-2010, 8:04 AM
Does anyone here know about those .308 Chilean Mausers I'm starting to see on Gunbroker?
It says they're rechambered but because the receiver is Pre 1898 they're antiques.
Are these things good shooters or are they hand grenades?
Also if you're buying an antique in California do you need an FFL anyway?

Sailormilan2
03-16-2010, 8:38 AM
The Chilean 308 Mausers that I have seen and held(3 barreled receivers), are marked 1912-61. Made by Steyr in Austria. They are Mauser 98 styles actions. But were rebarreld in 308(1961??) using 1903 Springfield barrels that had about 1/2" cut of the chamber area, rethreaded, rechambered, and then the exteriors were turned down to Mauser style profile. I have seen 4 groove and 2 groove barrels.

However, if those are the pre 98 Mausers, they might be okay for 7.62 NATO ammo, but definatly not for commercial ammo. The pre 98 Mausers are not quite as strong as the 98 style. NATO is supposed to be lower pressured than commercial ammo. However, last year, the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN magazine had a short article regarding 7/62 NATO vs 308 Win commercial, and they stated that they had found MIlitary 7.62 ammo with higher pressure than the 308 Commercial ammo.

I have seen lots of pre 98 actions rebarreled with high pressure cartridges(22/250, 243 Win. 308 Win), and people seem to shoot them. I am not sure I would want to.

N_S
03-16-2010, 8:44 AM
The Chilean 308 Mausers that I have seen and held(3 barreled receivers), are marked 1912-61. Made by Steyr in Austria. They are Mauser 98 styles actions. But were rebarreld in 308(1961??) using 1903 Springfield barrels that had about 1/2" cut of the chamber area, rethreaded, rechambered, and then the exteriors were turned down to Mauser style profile. I have seen 4 groove and 2 groove barrels.

Right but I'm talking about the pre 1898 variants originally made in 7mm and rechambered to .308 win. Or are they (year of manufacture notwithstanding) identical to the ones I'm describing?

Palimino Stripe
03-16-2010, 10:08 AM
The Chilean 308 Mausers that I have seen and held(3 barreled receivers), are marked 1912-61. Made by Steyr in Austria...

No no no... The OP is talking about M1895 Chilean Mausers. I.e. M93 style actions. Made by Loewe & subsequently DWM.

Sailormilan2 Is talking about a completely different animal...

(Back on topic) Yes they are antiques under federal law- and they can be shipped directly to you without an FFL (even in CA if the seller is willing).

The ones you are seeing adverstised were made between 1895-1898, though they did made them a few years longer.

I personally don't have one in .308 (though I do have on in original 7mm) so I can't make a comment on accuracy. But they are very well built guns. Made using old-world style German craftsmanship... At one point they had a sleve soldered into them to rechamber them to .308. Now remember, these were done by Chilean aresenals- not back yard gunsmiths. So they are safe...

Ultimately they are a pretty good gun to own. And I would buy one myself... If I currently had the disposable income.

-Palimino

Argonaut
03-16-2010, 10:36 AM
I have a M93 Turk that has been rebarreled to 308. It shoots fine and shows no signs of stress. They are not as strong as the M98 but probably adequate. The Spanish converted a lot of early actions to .308 and they were not noted for failures. I have several M91 Mausers in 7.65X53. My commercial Norma ammo is loading 150 grains at over 2900 FPS. That is hotter than commercial 308 ammo. I have shot them for years to no ill effect. In Olsen's Mauser book he says the strength is less of a concern than the way they vent gas in case of a case rupture. It would come down the bolt into the shooter's face. My Lowe built guns are very high quality as are my Steyrs. I am sure that makes a difference too.

N_S
03-16-2010, 10:43 AM
Well here's why I'm so concerned about the safety of these rifles.
If I buy a gun I plan to put a lot of ammo through it. This is why the .308 version appeals to me, the ammo is widely available. I can imagine the experience most people have is that they buy one, never put more than 20 rounds though it and predictably walk away with no receiver fragments in their teeth. In my case there would be a couple hundred rounds every year or so. It's no torture test but after a while the cumulative effect that all these rounds could tax the receiver or the rechambering job. This might prove too much for such an old gun and I could find myself prying bits of Mauser bolt out of my eye socket.

Argonaut
03-16-2010, 10:57 AM
We shoot a couple of hundred rounds in an afternoon......If you are concerned buy a new Remington and forget it.

Milsurp Collector
03-16-2010, 11:03 AM
Well here's why I'm so concerned about the safety of these rifles.
If I buy a gun I plan to put a lot of ammo through it. This is why the .308 version appeals to me, the ammo is widely available. I can imagine the experience most people have is that they buy one, never put more than 20 rounds though it and predictably walk away with no receiver fragments in their teeth. In my case there would be a couple hundred rounds every year or so. It's no torture test but after a while the cumulative effect that all these rounds could tax the receiver or the rechambering job. This might prove too much for such an old gun and I could find myself prying bits of Mauser bolt out of my eye socket.

That's why I avoid rechambered firearms.

It's like getting a Porsche and then putting narrower American wheels and tires on it because they are cheaper and easier to find. The Porsche engineers designed to car to perform best with a certain wheel and tire combination, and tuned the suspension with that in mind. The Porsche (Mauser) will still drive (shoot) with the cheaper/more available wheels and tires (ammo), but it just isn't the same. I like to stick with the original specification, and that's easy to do if you reload.

Milsurp rifles and reloading go together like peas and carrots.

Some Chilean Mausers are based on the 1893-95 action and some are based on the 1898 action. The earlier rifles were designed for a 45,000 psi cartridge while .308 is 52,000 psi. See http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/mausers/65844-chilean-mauser-questions.html

TRAP55
03-16-2010, 2:09 PM
At one point they had a sleeve soldered into them to rechamber them to .308. Now remember, these were done by Chilean arsenals- not back yard gunsmiths. So they are safe...

The ones that had been 7x57, and had the barrels bored, and the .308 chamber inserts, are not what you want. I've seen one of these barrels after being cut length wise to settle a bet, when the rifle got re-barreled to .257 Roberts.
Where the chamber insert meets the rifling, the gas had etched a ring. Picture a hacksaw cut from the inside, with about the thickness of a penny left before it cut the barrel off at the chamber. And I had shot it the week before!:eek:
Remember the .308 Navy Garands that used the chamber adapter? Guess why they stopped that, and made solid chambered barrels?;)

N_S
03-16-2010, 3:58 PM
Someone took one of those barrels and cut it in half?
Is there a picture of it?

Argonaut
03-16-2010, 4:07 PM
These guns were rebarreled, Not Rechambered or rebore. Terms are being used here that have no relevance. You can rechamber a barrel to a cartridge that is within the bore diameter,(IE 308-30-06-300mag) but no one is going to go to the trouble of reboring an entire barrel to change the bore unless it is some sort of collector gun that they are trying to preserve the original on. These had new 30 cal barrels installed at some armory that were chambered to 308. The reference that I have on them says they used US military barrels (03A3?) That were shortened, rechambered (metal recut by a Reamer) to 308 and rethreaded to fit the Mauser action. All of these processes are valid time proven methods to modify a rifle. New barrels are sold unchambered so you can cut them to whatever chamber you want. We made a lot of 308 Norma mags from 30-06 bolt rifles. It was a short enough round to fit well in the magazine and added several hundred feet per second to the bullet. There is also a difference in "tested to" and Strong enough in the machines we have. These early actions were tested (proofed) to 45,000 PSI because that was all the manufacturer asked for. They have proven to be adequate to whatever the pressures of modern 308 were loaded to.....also different than the 52.000 PSI SAMI specification. We all get hung up on the 3rd locking lug on the newer Mausers as being stronger, but we like the 700 Remington's and Steyrs with 2 lugs. I like Quality, fit finish and metal treatment. These are quality German built guns that have all that going for them. The only rifle that I can bring to mind that had problems blowing up were the AR10's that were issued to the Dutch troops. When we trained with them, they were terrified of going to the range because so many of there guys had been injured by them blowing up.

eighteenninetytwo
03-16-2010, 4:49 PM
Where can you get one of these things. They sound interesting.

N_S
03-16-2010, 5:56 PM
Where can you get one of these things. They sound interesting.

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=813

Only 30 something left. The one in the photo looks a little rough though. What's that tape around the bolt?

Milsurp Collector
03-16-2010, 7:03 PM
This is NOT my rifle, unfortunately, but this is what those 1895 Chilean Mausers originally looked like

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/SVT-40/DSC01216-01.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/SVT-40/DSC01221-01.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/SVT-40/DSC01251-01.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/SVT-40/DSC01233-01.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/SVT-40/DSC01242-01.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/SVT-40/DSC01243-01.jpg

N_S
03-16-2010, 7:41 PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that if I pay 290$ I won't be getting anything that nice.

Peter in CA
03-16-2010, 8:30 PM
N_S,
PM sent.

Peter in CA

gunboat
03-16-2010, 9:48 PM
"no one is going to go to the trouble of reboring" -- the Spanish did! lots of model 1916's (model 93's) were rebored from 7mm to .308, the barrel set back a couple threads and chambered 7.62 cetme/nato/308 -- You are welcome to exam mine -
A previous poster was also correct, some 93's were rebored to 308 and a chamber sleeve silver soldered in. Not an especially good solution.
my ha-penny

dfletcher
03-17-2010, 8:27 AM
I bought one a few years ago - probably from SAAMCO or SARCO or Southern Ohio Gun - and paid about $100.00 for the thing. It was in fine shape, nothing spectacular, and functioned perfectly. It shot about 2' (that's feet) high at 100 yds, I ended up either giving it to a friend or trading it in for about zero dollars, can't recall which.

I would say $290.00 is a bit much, especially if the condition is not known. On the other hand, as an occasional "tin can killer" (if you get the sights regulated) and example of how things used to be made I guess it's OK.

eighteenninetytwo
03-17-2010, 12:08 PM
Just ordered me one of em.
I have to be honest, motsly it was for the factors of :
a) being able to fire ammo I alreday possess in a mauser and mostly
b) being able to call up and just buy a gun and they'll ship it to you inside three days to your door without the DROS nonsense.

v/dBrink
03-17-2010, 4:21 PM
The rifles in question are Chilean Model 1895 rifles. Originally chambered in 7x57mm Mauser they were re-bored and a chamber insert soldered in place. They were not rechambered to .308 Winchester but to 7.62x51 Nato.

The 1895 Mauser, as the 1893, does not have any gas escape features. None. The only people who don't pay attention to that fact are newbies and non-handloaders. Its a serious deficit.

These 1895 rifles were converted because rifles and soldiers are disposable. They were not front line issue rifles but secondary. They were certainly not intended to be fed a steady diet of .308 Winchester nor 7.62x51 Nato.

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/1895Chile.html

http://images17.fotki.com/v372/photos/4/28344/8217713/AA95-vi.jpg

Make sure you understand what "lug setback" is in relation to bolt action rifles, and why it's important to know what it is and how to identify bolt lug setback.

http://images52.fotki.com/v728/photos/4/28344/8217713/95ring3-vi.jpg

Just after the lug cam surface you'll see a little ridge on the left. That is part of the "setback". What that will do is give a false headspace reading when the bolt won't go further than that ridge and you smile and think you're ok. You're not ok.

http://images17.fotki.com/v372/photos/4/28344/8217713/95ring2-vi.jpg

.308 Winchester chamber headspace gauges:
GO: 1.630"
NOGO: 1.634"
FIELD REJECT: 1.638"

US Army 7.62x51 chamber headspace gauges:
GO: 1.635"
FIELD REJECT: 1.6455"

SAAMI .308 Winchester chamber pressures:
MAP: 62,000 psi
MPSM: 66,000 psi
Minimum Proof Pressure: 83,000 psi
Maximum Proof Pressure: 89,000 psi

US Army 7.62x51 chamber pressures:
Maximum: 50,000 psi
Proof pressure: 67,500 psi

7.62x51 NATO pressure data from: TM 43-001-27 "Army Ammunition Data Sheets Small Caliber Ammunition" and headspace data from Kuhnhausen's M1/M1A shop manual.

.308 Winchester data from ANSI/SAAMI document Z299.4-1992, "Pressure and Velocity, Centerfire Rifle Sporting Ammunition".

gunboat
03-17-2010, 5:46 PM
I think 308 and 7.62 reamers are essentially the same. If I remember correctly there is only a slight difference at the throat juncture which is of no concern.
While it is true that m95/93's do not handle gas well through the bolt like a 98 many do have a gas port on the receiver ring.
mr brink your condemnation of the m95 is a bit harsh, lots of them around and giving good service --

v/dBrink
03-17-2010, 10:53 PM
The object of this thread, the m/1895 Chilean, never had a port on the receiver or bolt.

And whether the reamers are alike has nothing to do with the chamber pressures generated.

And lastly, my contribution to this thread is not a condemnation. It's an opinion based on experience.

Mac
03-18-2010, 3:45 PM
All I can sadly add is "Why did they not just leave those rifles alone." Used those and other Mauser rifles in 7x57 Back in the Day. All gave good results and did plenty of harvesting. Small ring Mauser in 7.62 Nato? = I will pass. Your mileage may vary.

Mac
03-18-2010, 3:50 PM
double post - Dang it.

eighteenninetytwo
03-19-2010, 10:26 AM
There is a difference between bubba in a garage changing something and a Military arsenals changing something. it doens't make it necessarily safer but it is legitimate history - same as a No.4 Enfield coverted to an L8A1 in 7.62 x 51 mm - still (in fact more) collectable and historical.

Mac
03-19-2010, 5:58 PM
There is a difference between bubba in a garage changing something and a Military arsenals changing something. it doens't make it necessarily safer but it is legitimate history - same as a No.4 Enfield coverted to an L8A1 in 7.62 x 51 mm - still (in fact more) collectable and historical.

Good points. Like I said, "Your Mileage May Vary.":)

knucklehead0202
03-21-2010, 9:32 AM
it's a mauser not an enfield. i wouldn't worry about stressing out the poor thing by shooting it too much. most of these old mausers made better than anything has been since. i've got several pre-98 mausers that i've shot a lot, with some hot loads and never the hint of any ill effect. just take one home and love it. they're good pets.

TRAP55
03-23-2010, 8:35 AM
v/dBrink, excellent info and pics!
Small ring vs Large ring Mausers and modern high pressure chamberings have been a long ongoing topic of discussion.
I've "heard" of small ring actions coming apart, always 3rd or 4th hand information, but I have never seen one. What I have seen, is severe lug setback like in the pics that Brink posted.
The Swede 96 SR action was the cream of the crop, even the ones made in Germany. The Swedes insisted the Germans used a higher grade of Swede steel to make them.
I believe it was Kimber that used these actions to build a run of custom rifles, and stopped because of safety concerns when many were showing up with lug setback.
As the evolution of the Mauser action progressed from the 1891 SR action to the 1898 LR action, so did the metallurgy, strength, and safety. The main safety features added in the 98 were:
1: Larger receiver ring with more lug surface, and more steel around the chamber
2: A third "safety lug" added to the rear of the bolt
3: Gas vent holes in the bolt body to redirect gas down into the magazine
4: A gas shield on the bolt shroud to stop gas from coming back into the shooters face
Many of the Spanish SR actions were later modified with a hole to vent gas, drilled in the left side of the receiver. When a SR action is used for a sporter, some add 98 style holes to the bolt body, and add a gas shield the shroud.
The shroud conversion is pretty simple, and easy to do if you have welding skills.
http://www.mausercentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?search_id=565271816&t=15774

v/dBrink
03-29-2010, 12:20 AM
I've "heard" of small ring actions coming apart, always 3rd or 4th hand information, but I have never seen one.

Swede m/96 in Australia. Sheered both bolt lugs. This has also happened in Sweden resulting in DEATH. How these incidents happen isn't always known. But they do happen. Guessing about it is a waste of brain cells.

http://images108.fotki.com/v611/photos/2/28344/377112/brokelugs1-vi.jpg

http://images38.fotki.com/v1274/photos/2/28344/377112/brokelugs2-vi.jpg

v/dBrink
03-29-2010, 12:24 AM
I can tell you exactly what happened to this Ag42b because I know the shooter personally. He shot less than 10 rds of Danish 6.5x55 that's known to foul the bore rapidly resulting in excessive pressure. Totally destroyed this rifle.

http://images42.fotki.com/v1319/photos/2/28344/157842/ag2-vi.jpg

v/dBrink
03-29-2010, 12:26 AM
A Spanish FR7 which is an 1893 action, same design as the m/1896 Swedish Mauser. This dude fired one too many three-O-eights in this old boy.

http://images32.fotki.com/v1091/photos/2/28344/1676633/pix517853500-vi.jpg

http://images32.fotki.com/v1088/photos/2/28344/1676633/pix517853969-vi.jpg

http://images32.fotki.com/v1090/photos/2/28344/1676633/pix517854000-vi.jpg

TRAP55
03-29-2010, 9:06 AM
WOW!:eek:
I hope no serious injuries were involved with either one of those.
Was there any evidence of the Ljungman firing out of battery?
Would you know what kind of ammo was being used in the FR-7 when that happened?
I've seen a FN Fal that was grenaded like that, using Pakistani 7.62 NATO ammo. It had the same yellow residue around what was left of the chamber area. It was surmised that the round had been spiked with some form of plastic explosive. The shooter survived, but had to have a piece of the bolt removed from his forehead.

gunboat
03-29-2010, 3:26 PM
As the FR7, FR8, and 1916 carbines and chilean mausers converted to 7.62 were in spanish and chilean service for 30 some years, I wonder if there is any documented disasters in those countries records ??

endwahl
03-30-2010, 9:47 AM
There wouldn't be any as the 30 years of "service" was in storage.

v/dBrink
03-30-2010, 11:11 AM
Was there any evidence of the Ljungman firing out of battery?

Firing out of battery is the first thing many will guess at in such a situation. But it did not fire out of battery.

I've seen a Hakim failure. I was standing behind the shooter. Got hit with some of the junk. He was shooting Turk 8mm. Powder was way too slow. The pressure curve was such that the bolt carrier opened the bolt too soon and the case head let go. Actually, the extractor ripped the case open with the help of the high pressure. The Hakim and Ljungman channel gas down through the magazine well. Usually blows everything all over but saves the shooter any serious harm.

Mac
03-30-2010, 7:50 PM
Yup. Bad JuJu.