PDA

View Full Version : Legal and practical to carry a concealed Keltec Sub-2000?


ChronoCube
03-05-2010, 5:52 PM
Since it is generally legal to have an unloaded long gun in public in CA, except for near schools, would it be legal and practical to carry a concealed Sub2000 in a messenger bag while you are out and about? The carbine would be unloaded, a stock extension permanently affixed (30" OAL), a bullet button installed (hypothetical), and folded up. This would allow you to CC a long gun instead of OC a handgun, which might disturb the sheep.

Is this legal and practical?

virulosity
03-05-2010, 5:53 PM
How is it going to protect you unloaded and locked?

ChronoCube
03-05-2010, 5:58 PM
How is any other unloaded gun going to protect you? It's not like you can carry loaded right? Better to have a gun that will require three seconds to unfold and load than to have no gun at all. But you can compare it to having an OC handgun. Or evaluate whether it could cause any inconvenience, etc.

aplinker
03-05-2010, 6:40 PM
Legal? Yes. Practical? well..... :shrug:

Once A Marine
03-05-2010, 7:05 PM
How is any other unloaded gun going to protect you? It's not like you can carry loaded right? Better to have a gun that will require three seconds to unfold and load than to have no gun at all. But you can compare it to having an OC handgun. Or evaluate whether it could cause any inconvenience, etc.

Don't confuse people open carrying in the name of RKBA with carrying to protect oneself.

virulosity
03-05-2010, 7:11 PM
A gun is probably the least effective way to protect yourself in CA, unless you have CCW. You could maybe buy a bear?
http://www.fugly.com/media/IMAGES/Scary/Bear_Attack.jpg

ChronoCube
03-05-2010, 9:48 PM
We've established legality, now let's talk practicality. Let me rephrase my question -- do the benefits of carrying this outweigh the inconveniences, compared to open carrying a handgun and to not having a firearm on you at all?

PutTogether
03-05-2010, 10:18 PM
We've established legality, now let's talk practicality. Let me rephrase my question -- do the benefits of carrying this outweigh the inconveniences, compared to open carrying a handgun and to not having a firearm on you at all?

I don't mean to sound like an *** - but doesn't your question answer itself? How can having ANY gun ever not be considered preferable to no gun at all? I mean sure, I guess it is a pain in the *** to carry around, but if you really want to have a gun on you, it seems like that it shouldn't be a big deal. If it seems like too big a deal, well then, you don't want to carry a gun that bad.

Do you carry a messenger bag anyway?

ChronoCube
03-05-2010, 10:52 PM
Carrying the bag around is not that big of a deal to me. I'm a student and I've carried a messenger bag before. I use a backpack now, but wouldn't have a problem with switching back to a messenger bag.

Earlier when we talked about the carbine being impractical or not, I said it was better than nothing if you are in danger. However, without assumptions of such scenarios, you might face hassles. For example, going into a store, you might be asked to hand over the bag. If you get stopped by a cop, it would look bad even though it is fully legal. Kind of like how in Texas it is legal to carry a loaded AR or AK in public, but you'd be harassed by LEOs who are not aware of that. These are examples of inconveniences that would come from legally carrying a folded carbine in your bag.

So is having a concealed carbine worth these inconveniences? Can you think of other inconveniences that come from carrying it?

corrupt
03-06-2010, 1:15 AM
Might as well just carry a handgun in a pocket of your bag that you can lock with a cheap combo lock. It'd probably be just as fast as unfolding a rifle... haha.

dchang0
03-06-2010, 10:25 AM
I think it's a question that only you can answer. For me, the weight and bulk aren't worth it--I'd rather carry a handgun, unloaded, in a locked, fully-enclosed container than a long gun.

However, it would take me up to five minutes to deploy a handgun in that situation, which means that it would only be useful for a small fraction of possible self-defense situations. Your long gun would likely be faster to deploy because of the absence of the lock.

I say you augment your carry situation with a large folding (not fixed-blade) knife and the training to use it. That would handle most surprise attacks, leaving the long gun for attacks where you aren't the first target.

Ultimately, what you carry depends mostly on where you live and go. When I used to live in East Pasadena, getting harassed by perps was a weekly thing. Having a long gun in a bag would've been nice then.

If you walk or bicycle everywhere like I did then, then yes, having a large bag on you does make it hard to enter some establishments like retail stores, etc. In those cases, the UL CC handgun in a small bag would probably be okay but the long gun in its large bag wouldn't.

It also depends heavily on the nature of the stores you frequent. In some places, students carrying backpacks/messenger bags are okay. In others, "all backpacks are subject to search" because those same students tend to shoplift.

CD MCKINNEY
03-06-2010, 10:46 AM
When I lived in "Kalifornia" I carried a loaded, Colt Commander .45, concealed and I didn't care as much about the [stupid] law as I did my safety [and] I had to pull it twice to protect myself.

Now I live In phoenix with a CCW and carry this 10MM concealed:

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj381/CDMCKINNEY/DSCF0002.jpg

corrupt
03-06-2010, 12:00 PM
I think it's a question that only you can answer. For me, the weight and bulk aren't worth it--I'd rather carry a handgun, unloaded, in a locked, fully-enclosed container than a long gun.

However, it would take me up to five minutes to deploy a handgun in that situation, which means that it would only be useful for a small fraction of possible self-defense situations. Your long gun would likely be faster to deploy because of the absence of the lock.

I say you augment your carry situation with a large folding (not fixed-blade) knife and the training to use it. That would handle most surprise attacks, leaving the long gun for attacks where you aren't the first target.

Ultimately, what you carry depends mostly on where you live and go. When I used to live in East Pasadena, getting harassed by perps was a weekly thing. Having a long gun in a bag would've been nice then.

If you walk or bicycle everywhere like I did then, then yes, having a large bag on you does make it hard to enter some establishments like retail stores, etc. In those cases, the UL CC handgun in a small bag would probably be okay but the long gun in its large bag wouldn't.

It also depends heavily on the nature of the stores you frequent. In some places, students carrying backpacks/messenger bags are okay. In others, "all backpacks are subject to search" because those same students tend to shoplift.

5 minutes? Just find a pocket on your bag (two zippered pocket perhaps), get a $3 combo luggage lock, set the combo to say 111, and keep it on 110. All you have to do is open the lock, and stick the magazine in the pistol and make it condition 1. That really doesn't take more than 20 seconds unless you're all thumbs.

aplinker
03-06-2010, 12:54 PM
5 minutes? Just find a pocket on your bag (two zippered pocket perhaps), get a $3 combo luggage lock, set the combo to say 111, and keep it on 110. All you have to do is open the lock, and stick the magazine in the pistol and make it condition 1. That really doesn't take more than 20 seconds unless you're all thumbs.

in ideal conditions. What about under stress? In the dark?

Unless the combo has a stop it's actually difficult. It's fine motor control.

JBird33
03-06-2010, 1:16 PM
Threads like this make me feel very lucky to live in Shasta county. Hopefully the supreme court brings you all shall issue CCW! All these questions would become obsolete.

.40Cal
03-06-2010, 7:17 PM
Carrying an unloaded guy is Legal, and called OPEN CARRY. As legal as it is, you WILL Be hasseled by cops all day long.


And, NO, you CAN NOT carry a gun in a bag (of any kind). It has to be open and visible, as per rules of Open Carry.

corrupt
03-06-2010, 7:59 PM
Carrying an unloaded guy is Legal, and called OPEN CARRY. As legal as it is, you WILL Be hasseled by cops all day long.


And, NO, you CAN NOT carry a gun in a bag (of any kind). It has to be open and visible, as per rules of Open Carry.

Wow that's a big load of fud right there. Try reading a little more before posting such false info as unequivocal truth next time.

Clue: Read up on LUCC. Also, Long arms can be concealed legally (well unless it's a registered AW, etc)

Seesm
03-06-2010, 8:19 PM
When I lived in "Kalifornia" I carried a loaded, Colt Commander .45, concealed and I didn't care as much about the [stupid] law as I did my safety [and] I had to pull it twice to protect myself.

Now I live In phoenix with a CCW and carry this 10MM concealed:

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj381/CDMCKINNEY/DSCF0002.jpg

Some do this but some would say this is not a good idea. For fear to get in trouble legally...


Carrying an unloaded guy is Legal, and called OPEN CARRY. As legal as it is, you WILL Be hasseled by cops all day long.


And, NO, you CAN NOT carry a gun in a bag (of any kind). It has to be open and visible, as per rules of Open Carry.

Do not carry a guy loaded or un-loaded... Well you can but I will not. :) But on a gun you can UOC (unload open carry) with mags (not in the gun or any bullet chambered) And what the OP is talking about is carry a messeger bag with a loaded mag (not in the gun) and a un loaded gun with a lock on it.. Which is totally legal... btw Op was talking about a carbine which I think a smaller pistol is better than a carbine... But that is just me.

aplinker
03-07-2010, 12:42 AM
Carrying an unloaded guy is Legal, and called OPEN CARRY. As legal as it is, you WILL Be hasseled by cops all day long.


And, NO, you CAN NOT carry a gun in a bag (of any kind). It has to be open and visible, as per rules of Open Carry.


I'm not trying to be mean, but I think you've reached the "a little knowledge is dangerous" level. :D

You're clearly very enthusiastic and trying to help, but it's not yet time to start advising people - especially on legality. Read some more and make sure you have things straight. We have a lot more people who follow-up frequently, but I would hate to see someone led astray or confused further by improper explanations and advice.

Mike5150
03-09-2010, 11:56 AM
FYI the Kel Tec Sub 2000 is not legal out of the box. It's 29.5" long (shorter than Cali's 30" rule) and has both a pistol grip and detacheable magazine. You can't have both in Cali, so a bullet button (which isn't sold) and a 10 rd mag, or a wrap around grip from solar tactical are you only options.

Plus you can't buy in a local gunstore, you have to have it shipped in two pieces, and reassembled cali legal by a willing FFL, running you $600+ for a $350 gun.

civilsnake
03-09-2010, 12:11 PM
I'm slightly confused here. Can you carry a carbine, unloaded, in an UNlocked container? Or does the container have to be locked?

Untamed1972
03-09-2010, 12:26 PM
I'm slightly confused here. Can you carry a carbine, unloaded, in an UNlocked container? Or does the container have to be locked?


A long gun is by legal definition "not concealable" and hence does not fall under the locked container requirements that concealable/handguns do.

AlexDD
03-09-2010, 12:27 PM
This discussion got me to looking at these carbines again. Came across this interesting picture:

http://www.mouseguns.com/sub2000/backpock.jpg

PS I would not recommend carrying this way due to the FED school zone limitation but it is sure a creative way to conceal carry a long arm.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones#Law_2

"(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to
possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects
interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual
knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearmó
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to
do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual
obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the
State or political subdivision verify that the individual is
qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that isó
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school
in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into
between a school in the school zone and the individual or an
employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official
capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while
traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to
public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school
premises is authorized by school authorities. "

Sorry if dup.

civilsnake
03-09-2010, 12:31 PM
A long gun is by legal definition "not concealable" and hence does not fall under the locked container requirements that concealable/handguns do.

So a rifle or shotgun automatically count as a long gun, correct?

Untamed1972
03-09-2010, 12:33 PM
So a rifle or shotgun automatically count as a long gun, correct?

As long as it meets the minimum barrel length and overall length requirements. Yes.

16" barrel for rifles
18" barrels for shotguns.

Untamed1972
03-09-2010, 12:37 PM
FYI the Kel Tec Sub 2000 is not legal out of the box. It's 29.5" long (shorter than Cali's 30" rule) and has both a pistol grip and detacheable magazine. You can't have both in Cali, so a bullet button (which isn't sold) and a 10 rd mag, or a wrap around grip from solar tactical are you only options.

Plus you can't buy in a local gunstore, you have to have it shipped in two pieces, and reassembled cali legal by a willing FFL, running you $600+ for a $350 gun.

So why not just go with an SU-16 instead?

Interesting question.....Would having a full magazine in the mag-well of an SU-16, while the rifle was in it's folded configuration constitute a "loaded weapon"? Since the rifle can't be fired in the folded postion, would having a ammo in the mag-well meet the definition of "ammo in a postion capable of firing"?

civilsnake
03-09-2010, 12:42 PM
So why not just go with an SU-16 instead?

Interesting question.....Would having a full magazine in the mag-well of an SU-16, while the rifle was in it's folded configuration constitute a "loaded weapon"? Since the rifle can't be fired in the folded postion, would having a ammo in the mag-well meet the definition of "ammo in a postion capable of firing"?

I don't believe the SU-16 will fold with a magazine in the well. I know the SU-16CA wont, and I the variant that might be able to would require the BB.

civilsnake
03-09-2010, 1:00 PM
As long as it meets the minimum barrel length and overall length requirements. Yes.

16" barrel for rifles
18" barrels for shotguns.

So any rifle can be carried unloaded? Does this fall under transport? Because I always hear about transport requiring a locked container.

Untamed1972
03-09-2010, 1:05 PM
So any rifle can be carried unloaded? Does this fall under transport? Because I always hear about transport requiring a locked container.


The only requirement for long guns being locked is in a school zone. but the trunk of a car meets the requirement of locked.

But yes.....it can be carried unloaded. Doesn't mean you're not gonna freak people out, or have the SWAT descend upon you though.

Untamed1972
03-09-2010, 1:07 PM
I don't believe the SU-16 will fold with a magazine in the well. I know the SU-16CA wont, and I the variant that might be able to would require the BB.


Oh yes....the trigger guard folds into the magwell doesn't it. I forgot about that.

civilsnake
03-09-2010, 1:14 PM
Oh yes....the trigger guard folds into the magwell doesn't it. I forgot about that.

It does still raise the interesting question of whether you could break apart an AR and leave a loaded magazine in the lower... I imagine you'd be in the clear on that one since a lower is not a rifle.

epic4444
03-09-2010, 1:28 PM
Honestly, this questions kinda nuts, we really dont need people carrying Keltecs in bags around town.

civilsnake
03-09-2010, 1:54 PM
Honestly, this questions kinda nuts, we really dont need people carrying Keltecs in bags around town.

Why not? Would you say the same thing about people with CCW permits and handguns?

Untamed1972
03-09-2010, 1:56 PM
It does still raise the interesting question of whether you could break apart an AR and leave a loaded magazine in the lower... I imagine you'd be in the clear on that one since a lower is not a rifle.


Except even an upper with 16" barrel seperate from the lower is like 25" inches long. That's still pretty long to try and carry in something like a typical daypack/book pack size bag. and the 2 halves seperated take up more space then you think they do.

iBlake
03-09-2010, 2:42 PM
Honestly, this questions kinda nuts, we really dont need people carrying Keltecs in bags around town.

I really hope no gun-hating, liberals are within earshot, because if there are, they just jizzed in their pants.

civilsnake
03-09-2010, 3:02 PM
Except even an upper with 16" barrel seperate from the lower is like 25" inches long. That's still pretty long to try and carry in something like a typical daypack/book pack size bag. and the 2 halves seperated take up more space then you think they do.

Well, so is an SU-16CA folded up. If a container will work for one it can probably work for the other. I'm thinking a sturdy backpack with partitions. In your typical Jansport, yeah, it would be a hassle.

epic4444
03-09-2010, 3:24 PM
Why would anyone need to carry a rifle around in a bag? CCW a pistol in a holster is great, im all for it, carrying a rifle folded up in a bag...idk about that. And say what you want about liberal hearing me, it doesnt matter, there mind where made up along time ago. Also just because im pro-gun and pro-ccw doesnt mean i have to support ridiculous ideas like this because liberals will get off on it, i have my own mind and enjoy using it.

bigthaiboy
03-09-2010, 3:28 PM
Since it is generally legal to have an unloaded long gun in public in CA, except for near schools, would it be legal and practical to carry a concealed Sub2000 in a messenger bag while you are out and about? The carbine would be unloaded, a stock extension permanently affixed (30" OAL), a bullet button installed (hypothetical), and folded up. This would allow you to CC a long gun instead of OC a handgun, which might disturb the sheep.

Is this legal and practical?

I'm not sure why you would entertain the theoretical idea of a Sub 2000 being practical to carry in a messenger bag. It's OAL is 29.5" fully extended, so you would have to permanently thread and pin / weld a muzzle device to make it over 30" OAL. Therefore you need a messenger bag which has a minimum 3ft inner compartment.

civilsnake
03-09-2010, 3:45 PM
I'm not sure why you would entertain the theoretical idea of a Sub 2000 being practical to carry in a messenger bag. It's OAL is 29.5" fully extended, so you would have to permanently thread and pin / weld a muzzle device to make it over 30" OAL. Therefore you need a messenger bag which has a minimum 3ft inner compartment.

It can't fire in its folded position. Therefor you do not have to pin it in operational position. You just have to add .5in to the gun somewhere so that it's 30in when operational.

iBlake
03-09-2010, 3:53 PM
Why would anyone need to carry a rifle around in a bag?

You just did it again. Why does anybody need to do anything? The way I look at it, this thread is more an exercise in legality. Maybe someone will reference this thread, in the future, when they're curious about simply transporting a rifle and want to know the legality and how to do so in public.

You can think what you want to think, but I'm sure questions, like the one you've proposed, have been asked by those who seek to take away our rights as gun owners. Ex. "Why does anyone need an AW?" --It's a slippery slope and we've all seen where it ends.

We'll make a note that you don't want to carry a rifle in a bag in public, but that doesn't mean others do not want to/can't learn something about it.

cmth
03-09-2010, 6:22 PM
Honestly, this questions kinda nuts, we really dont need people carrying Keltecs in bags around town.

"We", who? You must be using the royal "we" (apologies, my liege), because I think that it's perfectly acceptable to carry a firearm in a bag around town. As far as "need" goes, thankfully, necessity is not yours to decide. That is the same type of question asked by those who have made careers of deciding what you and I "need" in our lives, and especially that which we don't "need", by their definition. You don't need a gun, until you need one... and then you really need one.

Lagduf
03-09-2010, 8:01 PM
It can't fire in its folded position. Therefor you do not have to pin it in operational position. You just have to add .5in to the gun somewhere so that it's 30in when operational.

The Kel-Tec buttpad adds .5" IIRC.

There are actually quite a few cool accessories for the Sub 2000 now. You can get an aluminum dual or quad picatinny rail handguard for it to replace the stock handguard. They also have a shorter handguard, an undermount picatinny rail for the regular handguard, some kind of folding scope mount, etc...

Another company makes slip on grip for the operating handle, a pad for the receiver tube (more comfortable cheek weld) and a buffer pad they claim reduces felt recoil by 30%

Neat little gun. I'd like to own one but don't want to pay an outrageous price.

Either that or I'd take a 9mm carbine like the old marlin and ruger ones that accept GLOCK magazines.

ChronoCube
05-20-2010, 10:19 AM
Let's revisit this one more time. Why wouldn't carrying a Sub2k in a bag be considered a violation of concealed carry law? The law doesn't say "handguns" but "pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person." If the carbine is concealable, wouldn't it run the risk of being classified as falling under the concealed weapons law?

PacoLoco666
05-21-2010, 9:43 PM
I have a registered AW SUB-9 Keltec with aluminum receiver. With 3 33-round mags, that's damn near a hunert rounds, in a package not much bigger than two pistols ( Star 30M in 9mm and 31P in 40SW for comparo).
Pretty small package, don't ya think?


56441

56442

IsaacGlass
05-21-2010, 10:56 PM
Let's revisit this one more time. Why wouldn't carrying a Sub2k in a bag be considered a violation of concealed carry law? The law doesn't say "handguns" but "pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person." If the carbine is concealable, wouldn't it run the risk of being classified as falling under the concealed weapons law?

Try asking your question here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=71

Then again, it seems that you've already answered your own question.

Falstaff
08-05-2010, 7:07 PM
When I lived in "Kalifornia" I carried a loaded, Colt Commander .45, concealed and I didn't care as much about the [stupid] law as I did my safety [and] I had to pull it twice to protect myself.

Now I live In phoenix with a CCW and carry this 10MM concealed:

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj381/CDMCKINNEY/DSCF0002.jpg

Word. Afterall, it's only a misdameanor right?

till44
08-05-2010, 7:53 PM
Word. Afterall, it's only a misdameanor right?

A misdemeanor that can carry a year in county if the judge sees fit...:rolleyes:

rugershooter
08-05-2010, 9:50 PM
Why would anyone need to carry a rifle around in a bag? CCW a pistol in a holster is great, im all for it, carrying a rifle folded up in a bag...idk about that. And say what you want about liberal hearing me, it doesnt matter, there mind where made up along time ago. Also just because im pro-gun and pro-ccw doesnt mean i have to support ridiculous ideas like this because liberals will get off on it, i have my own mind and enjoy using it.

Yeah, CCW would be great...if we could do it. I don't know what county the OP lives in, but I'd assume that it's not a shall-issue county since he's considering carrying a long gun. The method of carry he's describing is also going to cause less problems than UOC since people don't actually see the gun. In my opinion, we should use any and all methods of carrying guns in public that are currently legal until we get shall-issue CCW. We need to realize the limitations of practicality, though; LUCC isn't practical for immediate dangers, etc.

NotEnoughGuns
08-06-2010, 6:39 AM
A misdemeanor that can carry a year in county if the judge sees fit...:rolleyes:

I'm not sure of the P.C. but I think its a $200 fine for the first offense. FWIW

ETA, But the handgun must be registered to you.

thenodnarb
08-06-2010, 8:39 AM
I'm not sure of the P.C. but I think its a $200 fine for the first offense. FWIW

ETA, But the handgun must be registered to you.

$1000 fine last I checked.

Falstaff
08-06-2010, 8:54 AM
Only a $1,000? Might be worth it if it saves yer life...Just sayin'... :rolleyes: I guess subsquent convictions are felonies though? Or could you just start collecting serial misdemeanor CCW charges as an (expensive) workaround to CA's refusal to issue CC permits? :chris:

But it's a felony to carry a concealed double edeged knife- go figure!

dmcag69
08-06-2010, 9:21 AM
Take the risk and and carry a handgun, a rifle in my opinion is a stupid idea and you give the liberals and uneducated public a bad review of responsible gun owners. You should go to CVS, they have a magazine called Personal Protection or is it Concealed CArry. If you see it you know what I'm talking about, well its has cases in which concealed carry law abiding citizens were charge with crimes and felonies for just defending themselves. In court the proscution will say you had time to take a rifle out of a gym bag, load it and fire 5 rounds into a guy, why didn't you run away. I'M NOT AGAINST CONCEALED CARRY, I"M TRYING TO KEEP YOU FROM A BAD DAY. Like some you have a field day on SKS rifles and 922r there was a time called preban, I stay away from SKS BOARDS like some of you dislike AR15.com. Combat Exchange is preban, its like your hicaps mags. Like 922r review the Castle Doctrine and Stand your ground laws, they differ for some states.

rugershooter
08-07-2010, 9:18 PM
Take the risk and and carry a handgun, a rifle in my opinion is a stupid idea and you give the liberals and uneducated public a bad review of responsible gun owners. You should go to CVS, they have a magazine called Personal Protection or is it Concealed CArry. If you see it you know what I'm talking about, well its has cases in which concealed carry law abiding citizens were charge with crimes and felonies for just defending themselves. In court the proscution will say you had time to take a rifle out of a gym bag, load it and fire 5 rounds into a guy, why didn't you run away. I'M NOT AGAINST CONCEALED CARRY, I"M TRYING TO KEEP YOU FROM A BAD DAY. Like some you have a field day on SKS rifles and 922r there was a time called preban, I stay away from SKS BOARDS like some of you dislike AR15.com. Combat Exchange is preban, its like your hicaps mags. Like 922r review the Castle Doctrine and Stand your ground laws, they differ for some states.

If you're concerned about giving gun owners a bad name, I'd be more worried about doing something illegal like CCing a pistol without a permit than legally carrying a long gun. I'd rather have somebody think I'm nuts for LUCCing a long gun that's legal, than be prosecuted for doing something illegal. If you're really worried about our image as gun owners, care more about not doing anything illegal than what people think of your legal activities.