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E Pluribus Unum
03-05-2010, 10:28 AM
Whenever we talk about rifles, MOA always comes up. People are always talking about "sub moa rifles". My question is, how many of you can actually shoot sub moa??

For general purposes, sub MOA is basically better than a 1 inch group for every 100 meters. In my experience, it takes optics to get anywhere near MOA, let alone sub moa. I would say that the average shooter is good for about 3 inches at 100 yards, especially with irons. The simple fact is that most commercially produced firearms shoot better than their owners are capable of anyway.

With optics and plenty of time, I am good for about 1.5 inches at 100 yards. Do we put too much into it, or am I just a bad shot? :)

professionalcoyotehunter
03-05-2010, 10:32 AM
If my breathing is right and I have the right ammo and right conditions I can shoot sub. But it is very difficult because what you have stated. The rifle will out shoot me.

Peter W Bush
03-05-2010, 10:42 AM
A lot of users post pictures of their groups here and a good amount of them are less than 1" at 100 yards. As for me, when I go to the rifle range its usually with hunting rifles that are minute-of-heart.

johnrunner89
03-05-2010, 10:45 AM
with good ammo and my Tikka T3 Varmint I can shoot sub moa.

reidnez
03-05-2010, 10:58 AM
3" at 100 yards is plenty good for most purposes. 1.5" is excellent. An accurate gun is an interesting gun, yes, but I think sometimes we get tunnel vision when talking about marksmanship and lose sight of utility. What is it you want to to do with the rifle, and are you and the rifle adequate for that purpose? That's all you need to ask yourself.

Sheepdog1968
03-05-2010, 10:59 AM
From what I see at the range, the majority of people can't shot 1 MOA let along sub-moa. There are those who can and do enjoy the challenge but they are in the minority. can normally do is 2" w good bolt rifle and good optics at 100 yards. With iron sights the best I can do is 1" at 25 yards though it opens up some if I try it at 100 yards. Pistols I normally shoot 2" or less groups at 7 yards. I mostly am striving for 4" groups irrespective of distance as that's a good size group for self defense and hunting application.

Having said that, there is an awesome inexpensive rifle marksmanship two day class u can take for around 80 dollars. Google Appleseed Project. I went to two of them last year and am signed up for one this April. They are offered all over the USA and are typically within a 3 hour drive of most people. Money well spent if u want to shoot better.

xrMike
03-05-2010, 10:59 AM
In my experience, it takes optics to get anywhere near MOA, let alone sub moa. I would say that the average shooter is good for about 3 inches at 100 yards, especially with irons.

With optics and plenty of time, I am good for about 1.5 inches at 100 yards. Do we put too much into it, or am I just a bad shot? :)

10 rounds, irons, .766 MOA

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/xrMike/guns/groups/1stReloads/223FirstReloads-OnTargetSoftware.jpg

10 rounds, irons, .700 MOA

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/xrMike/guns/groups/2ndReloads/223SecondReloads-OnTargetSoftware.jpg

These are the 2 best bulls I've ever shot (so far). To be honest though, on average I usually shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA with irons from the bench. I don't own a decent scope yet, or even a rifle to put it on (my AR has a carry handle).

So yeah, it can be done. I find that my eyes are the deciding factor on any given day. Some days they are really sharp, some not so.

HK Dave
03-05-2010, 11:02 AM
I've had people miss so bad they hit MY targets... :confused:

I personally think... sub MOA is rare for a shooter... i'd say the majority of people at ranges can't shoot sub MOA and wont ever do it either.

I'm willing to bet that for the majority of shooters, their rifles are way better than them... me included.

Jicko
03-05-2010, 11:09 AM
Whenever we talk about rifles, MOA always comes up. People are always talking about "sub moa rifles". My question is, how many of you can actually shoot sub moa??

I can. :-)

And many others can, with a good enough rifle. Visit www.thetprc.com :) KYL, baby.... KYL!

Not hard at all with a custom rifle, custom or match graded ammo, NF/USO/Premier/SB.... the limit IS the rifle.... I just "click" the trigger....

:p

X-NewYawker
03-05-2010, 11:12 AM
It's optics, ammo and breathing
With optics and 165 grain Federal 308 match I can shoot sub MOA five shot groups in a bolt gun all day. My friend Richard has a 22PPC Shilen bolt gun that shoot 1/8 MOA groups at 100 yards.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/kimber-AT-100-yard-group.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/DTA-group-9-26.jpg
I assume that a .22 rifle that shoots a half inch group at 50 yards is also shooting MOA. All my Volquartsens and custom 10-22s will do better than that with ELEY Match and TENEX ammo.

JagerTroop
03-05-2010, 11:16 AM
3" at 100 yards is plenty good for most purposes. 1.5" is excellent. An accurate gun is an interesting gun, yes, but I think sometimes we get tunnel vision when talking about marksmanship and lose sight of utility. What is it you want to to do with the rifle, and are you and the rifle adequate for that purpose? That's all you need to ask yourself.


Well said.

mif_slim
03-05-2010, 11:18 AM
OH come in guys!! Everyone on the net can shoot sub-moa!! All they gotta do is say " can shoot sub-moa 30 shot at 100 yards."

like arbarrl said, many people mistaken the 50 yard line with the 100 yard. I'm sure at 50 yards, people with scope and good ammo can shoot sub-moa all day at a 100 yard NRA target put at 50 yards.

In real life, most guys next to me get 4" with iron and 2" with scopes.

Grassninja
03-05-2010, 11:24 AM
I think the reason weapon accuracy is so emphasized here is because most folks do most, if not all, of their shooting on controlled fire ranges. As such, the only thing you really can shoot for is accurate groups, usually off a bench. If this style of shooting is the primary means of sending off rounds, it is only natural for people to want an accurate rifle, regardless of his/her own capabilities.

I personally don't hold much of a candle to three round groups. Five or ten is more my idea of a sufficient amount of rounds to qualify as a group. Based on the amount of "which rifle is better" threads, and the responses often devolving into an accuracy to cost ratio debate, I do feel there is an overemphasis on weapon accuracy.

ar15barrels
03-05-2010, 11:31 AM
Whenever we talk about rifles, MOA always comes up. People are always talking about "sub moa rifles". My question is, how many of you can actually shoot sub moa??

I can.

These are my 243 "coldbore" groups.
That's the first shot of the day from a cold barrel followed up by 4 more to check for a zero shift.
These are not "picked over" or "lucky" groups.
These are the first group of each day over 3 different days.

http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/243targets1.jpg

Here is 3 shots at 600yds that are just over 1".
This is during competition so there's also a 500yd group, but it's more like 2.5" or so... :o

http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/600head.jpg

Here's 10 rounds of Lapua Standard+ 22 match ammo at 88yds.
It's JUST over 1 moa, but if I discounted the first round flyer, it's more like 5/8 moa.

http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/wolf-match.jpg

Peter W Bush
03-05-2010, 11:32 AM
MOA doesnt change by distance. Usually its interpreted as 1" @ 100 yards. At 50 yards, its just over .5", 200 yards, just a bit over 2"

So if youre shooting sub-moa @ 50 yards, thats still sub-moa.

ar15barrels
03-05-2010, 11:37 AM
MOA doesnt change by distance. Usually its interpreted as 1" @ 100 yards. At 50 yards, its just over .5", 200 yards, just a bit over 2"

So if youre shooting sub-moa @ 50 yards, thats still sub-moa.

Ah, but shooting sub moa at 50yds is REALLY easy compared to shooting sub moa at 100, 300, 600, 1000 etc...

Just because you can shoot sub moa at 50yds, don't expect to have similar groups at longer distances.

Group size is generally a function of flight time.
If you shoot 1 moa groups with x flight time and x flight time is 100yds, you need to look at the flight time to figure out what your moa might be at 300yds, 600 or 1000yds.
The thing to know is that it's NOT a linear scale based on distance.

Gshock
03-05-2010, 11:37 AM
Do we put too much into it, or am I just a bad shot? :)

How many people say "my gun can shoot sub MOA" as opposed to "I can shoot sub MOA"
On any given day, any decent shooter can get lucky and shoot a sub MOA group, even using factory ammo with gun a not
'certified' as sub MOA .
The questions are, can you do it consistantly? How many shots constitute a group, 3, 5, 10?
If you shoot or plan to shoot in competition I can see the importance. Other than that, unless you plan on hunting animals
from 100 yards that are less than an inch big, then yes, too much emphasis on sub MOA guns.

BONECUTTER
03-05-2010, 11:39 AM
I shot a bunch of .75&.80 groups with my custom 700. My friend shot a .20 MOA group out of the same gun and consitantly shoots .50 or less.

Yes lots of people talk about sub MOA rifle and lots depends on if the shooter does his/her part. But if you spend the money on one at least you know its not the rifle that off. :D

Call_me_Tom
03-05-2010, 11:40 AM
When I first joined the Marines you weren't allowed to even qualify on the rifle range if you couldn't put 4 rounds into a 3 inch ring at 300 yards using iron sights (BZO). Back then the most basic Marine shooter could accomplish this with just a little over a weeks worth of training.

ar15barrels
03-05-2010, 11:40 AM
The questions are, can you do it consistantly?

How many shots constitute a group, 3, 5, 10?

Yes.

3 shots is luck (see my 600yd target above), 5 shots is good, but 10 shots is better (see my 22 target above).

joefreas
03-05-2010, 11:47 AM
I watched an Army marksman shoot sub MOA at 100 yards with iron sights Wed night on the outdoor channel. It was a show all about the AR series rifle. I think it was called American Rifleman or Sighting In not too sure what one.

I was pretty impressed with his group for iron sights. Made me feel like a bad shot-

elSquid
03-05-2010, 11:50 AM
When I first joined the Marines you weren't allowed to even qualify on the rifle range if you couldn't put 4 rounds into a 3 inch ring at 300 yards using iron sights (BZO). Back then the most basic Marine shooter could accomplish this with just a little over a weeks worth of training.

Using a standard service rifle and issued ball ammo?

-- Michael

.40Cal
03-05-2010, 12:02 PM
10 rounds, irons, .766 MOA

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/xrMike/guns/groups/1stReloads/223FirstReloads-OnTargetSoftware.jpg

10 rounds, irons, .700 MOA

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/xrMike/guns/groups/2ndReloads/223SecondReloads-OnTargetSoftware.jpg

These are the 2 best bulls I've ever shot (so far). To be honest though, on average I usually shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA with irons from the bench. I don't own a decent scope yet, or even a rifle to put it on (my AR has a carry handle).

So yeah, it can be done. I find that my eyes are the deciding factor on any given day. Some days they are really sharp, some not so.




THAT is with iron sights on AR? :notworthy: Need details of your gun! (We already know shooter's edge).

xrMike
03-05-2010, 12:04 PM
Using a standard service rifle and issued ball ammo?

Uh, I seriously doubt it! :D

Cody
03-05-2010, 12:06 PM
I think ammo choice is crucial. You could be a great shot with a great rifle but if it doesn't like your ammo, sub MOA is hard to do. Even in the same brand of ammo some rifles might should sub MOA and another type (same brand) might shoot 3 inch groups. Finding that rifle to ammo match is the key.

.223/5.56+Ammo Testing (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=272805)

-Cody

CCRBUM
03-05-2010, 12:11 PM
seems like the real question goes back to intended purpose right? If you are hunting who cares if if can do sub-moa as long as it gets the job done right? but if you are going for competition shooting you are going to want a firearm that is going to accomplish it... can we all shoot that well? no... but how many of us train to do it? I bet most of us would be able to shoot moa or even sub-moa with the proper set up and proper training... just my opinion though :D.. I don't think it really works to try to knock people who log the time to be able to shoot that great just because you cannot.

EBR Works
03-05-2010, 12:27 PM
Best 100 yard group for me to date with my AR 308 on the bipod/monopod, .487 MOA. I cannot compete with bolt gun accuracy, but for a DI gun, I'm happy. I could probably tighten this up a bit with a heavy rest and additional ammo development neurosis/OCD.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/impactco/175smk005-1.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/impactco/ar10outside1.jpg

DPMS 24" upper w/ POF lower. Jewell trigger. Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50.

Ammo was my handloads with 175 SMK, CBC brass, Chrono results for this were 2608 FPS average with 33.11 ES and 10.8 SD. This was with 42g Varget and CCI BR-2 primers.

1lostinspace
03-05-2010, 12:30 PM
I have shot .75" at 200 (5) shots.

this is with my handloads. Using store bought ammo that is not match grade your going to get 1.5 at 100 at most.

X-NewYawker
03-05-2010, 12:59 PM
"How accurate" your gun can shoot off sandbags at Angeles just shows the base accuracy of the package. Trigger, barrel, Ammo, Shooter -- a sub MOA gun -- and there are several manufacturers, Weatherby, Kimber, etc., who "guarantee" MOA from their rifles -- the real test if what kind of accuracy you get shooting in field positions -- standing with shooting stick, prone, kneeling, running through the village screaming at the top of your lungs.
<ost high dollar rifles, if bolted into a rest, would outshoot most of their owners. It's our trigger time that we can control.

swerv512
03-05-2010, 12:59 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/swerv512/IMG_5214.jpg

5 shot 100yd from bench taken a while back. BTW- i'm a better shot now ;) plus i dont shoot at 100yds anymore... nor do i shoot from a bench anymore...

xrMike
03-05-2010, 1:24 PM
Need details of your gun! (We already know shooter's edge).

Rifle details:

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/complete_uppers.htm

I'm using WOA's Service Rifle upper (top of page), 1/4 MOA rear sight, with pinned rear sight base option. They ship 3 rear apertures with this upper. I use the smallest (.038"). There's a Rock River Arms 2-stage National Match trigger in the lower, Hogue grip, standard A2 buttstock. That's it.

Ammo details:

My handloads, using Ramshot TAC with 69 grain Nosler BTHPs (Custom Competition). I get the best 100 yard accuracy with 23.2 grains, which is a light load. Remington brass from my gun, Winchester primers (which I will cease to use when gone, because they sometimes pierce).



That 1st bull was from my initial load workup session, where I was trying to figure out the best charge weight. 23.2 grains gave the best accuracy. The 2nd bull was from a follow-up session, trying to see if playing with the distance off the lands would improve my earlier results. The rifle doesn't seem to shoot any better, consistently, by varying the distance-to-lands, so now I just load 'em up to max. mag length (2.26").

To be totally honest, my shooting ability is limited to a very small "environment" -- 100 yards, bench rest, irons, and that's it. Our range has a couple of gongs at 300 yards, and I can hit the smaller one (~12 x 12 inches) 9 out of 10 times with irons, but in reality, our Marines can shoot nearly that well after only a few weeks of training, as somebody already pointed out... I know I'd do poorly in a real High Power competition, like what Jon Ocab and others here do, or the long-range stuff that Randall/rksimple/Vu do. (Heh-heh, I said Vu-Do!).

Lots to learn still -- position shooting, sling use, reading the wind, understanding ballistics, etc. It will probably take a lifetime. :)

ar15barrels
03-05-2010, 1:32 PM
"How accurate" your gun can shoot off sandbags at Angeles just shows the base accuracy of the package. Trigger, barrel, Ammo, Shooter -- a sub MOA gun -- and there are several manufacturers, Weatherby, Kimber, etc., who "guarantee" MOA from their rifles -- the real test if what kind of accuracy you get shooting in field positions -- standing with shooting stick, prone, kneeling, running through the village screaming at the top of your lungs.
<ost high dollar rifles, if bolted into a rest, would outshoot most of their owners. It's our trigger time that we can control.

I have shot sub moa in side prone off of a pack, no rear rest.

BigBamBoo
03-05-2010, 1:38 PM
............

professionalcoyotehunter
03-05-2010, 1:40 PM
Very nice Stan.

mif_slim
03-05-2010, 2:34 PM
Don't have a picture, but have a video of me shooting some test rounds with a 16" yhm upper. Last shot was another load but I still concider it a group shot of 5.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73IXGD5i1Jo

that's without bench. Just elbow as support. I think it's okay.

M1A Rifleman
03-05-2010, 2:45 PM
I guess I'm above average:

About two-inches with irons
Sub MOA with my "sniper" rifle (1/2-5/8" four shot groups consistently)

killshot44
03-05-2010, 2:49 PM
Nice thread here. Glad I'm not the only who takes photographs of his groupings...

Still testing what factory rounds my two ARs like best. Going to go lower than 55gr for the 1st time to see if it differs from my best at 55/60gr.

I know I have to start reloading and if I get serious, get a purpose-built bolt gun.

For all you iron-sight-shooting 10-ring bangers out there: it gets a lot tougher after your eyes hit 45!

swerv512
03-05-2010, 3:02 PM
i only take pics when doing load development... that way i know how the group really shot besides just having a measured size...
was there vertical stringing, was there one off-shot (called flyer), etc....

gn3hz3ku1*
03-05-2010, 3:08 PM
dang you guys all are pretty good. According to the DoD test I was forced to take... I can hit a person at 500 yards.. prob not a head shot but he prob isnt going to get up and then there will be 29 follow ups :) jkkk

X-NewYawker
03-05-2010, 3:19 PM
Very nice Stan.

Stan and Randall are my heroes

Seriously

I hope the Noobs are listening. Plinking -- or "informal shooting" or spraying and praying -- whatever you want to call it -- is fun. Expensive fun. But shooting for a good group, that's something else. It requires patience. It forces you to almost meld with your weapon.

The Marines have it right -- they want to grow riflemen. America used to be a nation of Riflemen.

So, Once you have your super deluxe HDNoverskeLmtCmmgDeltaeliteDanieldefenseDpmssuper shooter all rigged out with flashlights and bipods and mini red dot sights mounted sideways -- you must practice. These days I shoot pictures of people shooting more than shoot myself, but there is a calm that comes over you at the concrete bench, or prone on your mat. Your breathing must fall in line. That cup of coffee you had with your McMuffin rears it's ugly head. You feel your heart beating.

You can't remember how much you hate your ex-wife when you are in this position....

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/Fasanoland/_MG_9211.jpg


Okay, you CAN, but you won't shoot as well.

E Pluribus Unum
03-05-2010, 3:28 PM
I think my next gun will be a short barreled bolt action .17 HMR or something similar.

I would like to shoot longer distance with a straight trajectory. I think .17 HMR is the answer.

evollep3
03-05-2010, 3:31 PM
im not a great shooter at all but i can definately do at least 1-1.5 easy at 100

B Strong
03-05-2010, 4:03 PM
With my eyesight at 100 yards, service rifles w/ iron sights and standard ball ammo from prone or off a bench, I can usually keep 5 rounds under five inches every time.

With a dedicated match rifle with glass and match ammo I can go under MOA from prone or the bench at 100 up to 400, most every time.

Bug Splat
03-05-2010, 4:44 PM
I wont own a center rifle that wont shoot 1 MOA at 100 yards. All my rifles will shoot at least MOA including my SU-16CA. I can shoot MOA with irons but if you give me a scope I can shoot WELL below MOA with some of my rigs. Sub 1/4MOA is not uncommon and even expected. If I'm shooting larger than 1/2 MOA on those rifles I'm having a really bad day. I'm such an accuracy junky though. I have super high expectations for accuracy and spend much more time on my rifles and ammo then your average bear. Even my diet is watched before a range trip. No coffee or caffeine , little to no sugar, well balanced meals and I dress very warmly because if the body is cold it can't relax and stiffens up. I keep my body warm and my heart rate low.

Jonathan Doe
03-05-2010, 5:11 PM
Sub-MOA is not hard to achieve.

Here is my M-1A standard rifle that I glass bedded and did the trigger job with match sight put on. It does not have a match barrel. 10 shots each at 100 yards from prone with iron sights. I know it can do batter, but my aging eyes won't do much better, although my match M-1A will do much better anyways.
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/5topgun/Targets/M-1ATarget.jpg

But, then, these are my bolt guns at 100 yards with 5 shots each. It is as shot, no pick and choose.
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/5topgun/Targets/01-08-103Large.jpg
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/5topgun/Targets/DSC_0001Small.jpg

CSACANNONEER
03-05-2010, 5:27 PM
I ussually don't get to take pictures of my groups but, here's one from when I was testing the new benches the day after we moved them to the 1000 yard line at Coalinga, December '08. This was the only group I shot that day. No tape measure but, you can see that it's 7"-8". Not bad for screwing around at a new range with left over ammo that I loaded to shoot in Reno.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/DSCI0061.jpg

Kimber
03-05-2010, 5:31 PM
While my rifle will still out-shoot me any day... I can consistantly shoot 1/2 MOA groups at 100. And keep it under a minute out to 300.

dodge
03-05-2010, 5:39 PM
..........

These are the 2 best bulls I've ever shot (so far). To be honest though, on average I usually shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA with irons from the bench. I don't own a decent scope yet, or even a rifle to put it on (my AR has a carry handle).

So yeah, it can be done. I find that my eyes are the deciding factor on any given day. Some days they are really sharp, some not so.
that's some excellent shooting
w/a quality scope you'll be placing them through the same hole :D

Dragunov
03-05-2010, 6:35 PM
I can if the rifle is capable of it.

slappomatt
03-05-2010, 7:11 PM
my custom rem 700 in 6mmBR will shoot around .5-.6 at 100yrds. my best so far with my current AR is a 4 shot group of about .8" at 100yrds but that was unusual. Its really hard to get an AR to shoot and be consistent with it.

mif_slim
03-05-2010, 7:51 PM
I can shoot .1" all day with a 22lr at 1685 yards on any given day.

Ps: that's with iron sights and a 3" pistol, Off hand after a 5 mile run yup hill, 20 mile bike ride up hill, 2 mile swim against a strong current, 3 rounds of mma fighting with brock lesnir, single handed. Yes, I'm superman. :)

cryoguy
03-05-2010, 8:05 PM
This is the best I have gotten so far. I can probably get smaller groups at a range. I was on some BLM land and didn't have the greatest setup... Oh, and this was done with my 1925 Mosin Nagant 91/30.... At 50 Yards give or take a couple of yards

http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv190/cfarrar77/IMG00053-20100213-1611.jpg

phish
03-05-2010, 8:08 PM
I'll play:

100 yards iz srz bzns, amirite?

russ69
03-05-2010, 8:13 PM
The NRA highpower target has a ten ring that is approximately 2 moa, the x ring is about 1 moa. A lot of good shooters can punch out the x ring. That's with iron sights and service rifles. I shoot a match rifle so I have aperture sights but I can shoot up the x ring about half the time when in position.
From the bench I do a quite a bit better. Shooting a few 5 shot 1/2 moa groups is not that difficult.

Thanx, Russ

Ruiner
03-05-2010, 8:26 PM
OH come in guys!! Everyone on the net can shoot sub-moa!! All they gotta do is say " can shoot sub-moa 30 shot at 100 yards."

like arbarrl said, many people mistaken the 50 yard line with the 100 yard. I'm sure at 50 yards, people with scope and good ammo can shoot sub-moa all day at a 100 yard NRA target put at 50 yards.

In real life, most guys next to me get 4" with iron and 2" with scopes.

Oh you mean the guys that can magically shoot "1/2 groups all day long" with chrome lined barrels, walmart bulk ammo and RDS? ;):D

cfm117
03-06-2010, 4:18 PM
Most seasoned NRA highpower shooters can shoot sub-MOA iron sights,service rifle class. If you cant you dont have a chance of winning anything or ranking Master. Doing it from standing is everyones nemesis, but its common from sitting (200 & 300 yds) and prone position(600 yds) (unsupported). Yes handloads are usually used so that helps some.

Jonathan Doe
03-06-2010, 4:54 PM
Most seasoned NRA highpower shooters can shoot sub-MOA iron sights,service rifle class. If you cant you dont have a chance of winning anything or ranking Master. Doing it from standing is everyones nemesis, but its common from sitting (200 & 300 yds) and prone position(600 yds) (unsupported). Yes handloads are usually used so that helps some.

I am a NRA Master classified. I cleaned the targets at 200 yard and 300 yard rapid fires, but never got 100 standing at 200 yards. My best was 99. Also, at 600 yard prone, my best was 99/100 and 198/200, never had a clean target. I hit the spotter several time at 600 also during several matches. My M-1A does the job. I wonder how it would shoot with a scope on it. Never had a scope on any of my M-1A's. :)

http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq263/5topgun/SSB_0003Medium-1.jpg

juelz919
03-06-2010, 5:15 PM
I've shot sub-MOA on multiple occasions..
ammo is the most important factor in my opinion..
I think every rifle has the proper load..

scope is important but not that important I have shot MOA and under, usually around inch and a quarter with a $60 scope..

So IDK..

with the .223 howa its usually around 1 inch with handloads.. depends on day..

Synergy
03-06-2010, 5:28 PM
I am new to the sub MOA and precision rifle world. I can say that first day out of the box my Stag 6H upper with XM193 I was shooting sub MOA. Stag claims that it is 1/2 MOA capable. I have a Leupold Mark AR 3-9x40mm mated to her and I am happy with my rookie performance.

Iggy
03-06-2010, 5:36 PM
Dang! I have some practicing to do. You guys are good!

Trendkill
03-06-2010, 5:56 PM
I can shoot MOA or slightly sub MOA with a CompM4 all day long.

Irons..??? 1 1/2 to 2 if Im trying.

Alot depends on the gun...the ammo...the scope..lots of stuff.

rksimple
03-06-2010, 7:05 PM
Everyone has half MOA rifles and abilities online. Show up at a match, and many can't even hit 2 MOA targets. Seen it many times.

CSACANNONEER
03-06-2010, 7:11 PM
Everyone has half MOA rifles and abilities online. Show up at a match, and many can't even hit 2 MOA targets. Seen it many times.

Yea, they may only have 1/2 min rifles but, their buddy always has a 1/4moa gun. Yet, neither of them will ever have the time to shoot a match or even meet someome who asks them to prove it. Oh yea, Also, they all have a buddy who is a sniper in the military who shoots sub moa at one or two miles with a M82A1 and ball ammo.

L4D
03-06-2010, 7:17 PM
in the bodybuilding forums this thread would be titled

"405 bench press"

Timberwolf
03-06-2010, 7:18 PM
I won't own a rifle unless its sub MOA

Jonathan Doe
03-06-2010, 8:01 PM
I build or buy a rifle with the best components, so it can shoot smallest group possible. That way, I will have more room for mistake and still be in high scoring ring when I shoot. I have been successful with it so far.;)

phish
03-06-2010, 8:03 PM
hell, not even a 1/2 minute rifle can do it all the time:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2750/4412209827_a3ba52355f_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2709/4412977702_7e9d17002d_o.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4412977722_3b5c969e9d_o.jpg

:laugh:

diginit
03-06-2010, 8:15 PM
This is 10 rnds from an AR-15, 16" barrel, 3x9 scope at 100 yds using M-193.. Don't know if it is sub MOA. But I know a couple went through the same holes.
Can't hit a darn thing any further than 200 yds or if I am just plinking though....

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj107/diginit/10Rounds100.jpg

Trendkill
03-06-2010, 9:19 PM
Why is it hard to believe people cant hit 1 or 2 moa at 100 yds...??? Isnt that supposed to be normal..???

ar15barrels
03-06-2010, 9:26 PM
Why is it hard to believe people cant hit 1 or 2 moa at 100 yds...??? Isnt that supposed to be normal..???

is that how good you normally shoot?

Trendkill
03-06-2010, 9:29 PM
is that how good you normally shoot?

The guns I shoot most...are my AR's. They have all shot 1 to 2 MOA at 100 yds.

I dont know that it is good though...people shoot better than that all the time...I've seen it.

1988
03-06-2010, 9:47 PM
I've seen AK and VZ shooting sub-MOA. It's the system and who knows how to use it.

ar15barrels
03-06-2010, 9:49 PM
The guns I shoot most...are my AR's. They have all shot 1 to 2 MOA at 100 yds.

I said normally, not once or even once in a while.
Normally would be more than half the times that you shoot your ar.

Trendkill
03-06-2010, 9:53 PM
I've seen AK and VZ shooting sub-MOA. It's the system and who knows how to use it.

Thats impressive.

I think you are right on.

I suppose it isnt a fair statement for me to gauge my shooting off of my most used rifles.

I am good for about 3 to 4 MOA with my AK's....(not suprising) little better with the SKS.

Bout 1 to 1 and a half with the 30-06 (with a scope)....and the best are the AR's.

Handguns...??? Im about 1 1/2 to 2 foot MOA at 100 yds......Lol

Trendkill
03-06-2010, 9:54 PM
I said normally, not once or even once in a while.
Normally would be more than half the times that you shoot your ar.

Yes is the answer then... :)

FMJBT
03-06-2010, 10:19 PM
You guys with all your multiple bullet holes are all very funny. I've found that the best way to immediately shrink group size is to fire only ONE shot per group. My groups all consistently average about 0.00" this way. 5 shot groups are for Rambo wanna be's. 10 shot groups? that's entering Chuck Norris or Mr. T wanna be territory there.


:D :D :D :D

ar15barrels
03-06-2010, 10:24 PM
You guys with all your multiple bullet holes are all very funny. I've found that the best way to immediately shrink group size is to fire only ONE shot per group. My groups all consistently average about 0.00" this way. 5 shot groups are for Rambo wanna be's. 10 shot groups? that's entering Chuck Norris or Mr. T wanna be territory there.


:D :D :D :D

If you measure that one hole in the target with calipers and subtract the bullet diameter, you will probably find that your group is actually -0.025" or so.

FMJBT
03-06-2010, 10:58 PM
If you measure that one hole in the target with calipers and subtract the bullet diameter, you will probably find that your group is actually -0.025" or so.

So.... Negative MOA is better than sub MOA, right? Then that's definitely what I shoot. I won't even own a rifle that doesn't shoot negative MOA.

Trendkill
03-06-2010, 11:10 PM
So.... Negative MOA is better than sub MOA, right? Then that's definitely what I shoot. I won't even own a rifle that doesn't shoot negative MOA.

Do you get "Negative Minutes of Angle" to carry over....like carry over negative minutes..??

IOW....can you have a crappy 1-2 moa day and make up for it the next day by having a real nice negative minutes day...??

FMJBT
03-06-2010, 11:15 PM
Do you get "Negative Minutes of Angle" to carry over....like carry over negative minutes..??

IOW....can you have a crappy 1-2 moa day and make up for it the next day by having a real nice negative minutes day...??

You mean like roll-over minutes? Yeah, I guess so. Anything is possible on the internet. In that respect I still have quite a few positive minutes to make up for from when I was still in the stone age and shooting multiple shot groups. Another 2 or 3 trips to the range and I should zero out, after that it's all negative MOA for me. :chris:

Trendkill
03-06-2010, 11:27 PM
Yes....roll over minutes of angle. Whether negative or positive.

I like your plan... ;)

Call_me_Tom
03-08-2010, 7:45 AM
Using a standard service rifle and issued ball ammo?

-- Michael
Yes

bomb_on_bus
03-08-2010, 8:00 AM
my head hurts..............

cleanguy46
03-08-2010, 8:12 AM
Whenever we talk about rifles, MOA always comes up. People are always talking about "sub moa rifles". My question is, how many of you can actually shoot sub moa??

For general purposes, sub MOA is basically better than a 1 inch group for every 100 meters. In my experience, it takes optics to get anywhere near MOA, let alone sub moa. I would say that the average shooter is good for about 3 inches at 100 yards, especially with irons. The simple fact is that most commercially produced firearms shoot better than their owners are capable of anyway.

With optics and plenty of time, I am good for about 1.5 inches at 100 yards. Do we put too much into it, or am I just a bad shot? :)

I just shot my new Remington 700 SPS Tactical .308 at the range for the first time and it is sub moa out of the box. After getting the scope dialed in with factory ammo I switch to my reloads I worked up and finished fine tuning and here are the results @ 100yds.....

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/cleanguy46/DSCN3075.jpg?t=1268067904

Minus .30 for bullet diameter is .565"

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/cleanguy46/DSCN3074.jpg?t=1268067992

Second group was better at .440"

This was my first time shooting this rifle so i'm sure as I practice more and work up different loads the results will greatly improve.

ar15barrels
03-08-2010, 8:16 AM
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm199/cleanguy46/DSCN3075.jpg?t=1268067904

Minus .30 for bullet diameter is .565"

That measuring method is not accurate.
You need to measure the diameter of a single bullet hole in the same target paper to see what the actual HOLE measures.
Here's a hint: the target paper stretches when the bullet passes through so the actual hole you measure on-target is smaller than the bullet diameter.
This difference is usually around 0.020" to 0.025" and the actual group measurement is larger accordingly.

cleanguy46
03-08-2010, 8:23 AM
Thanks for the info Randall. I'm continuing to learn through input from knowledged individuals like you so I can strive to become a more knowledged and better shooter. Still though the results are sub moa and i'm a happy camper!

ar15barrels
03-08-2010, 9:10 AM
There's no doubt that the groups are good.
I was just commenting on the methodology behind the math.

Pthfndr
03-08-2010, 10:09 AM
At our monthly LR tactical match yesterday, one of better shooters shot this 3 shot string with his custom built .308, off the concrete barricades at 425 yards. This is definitely sun moa.

You can also see the shot pasters for his 200 and 300 yard shot strings (prone from the ground with bipod) which are also sub moa.

http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp301/ncpprc/DSC00233.jpg

elSquid
03-08-2010, 10:15 AM
Yes

I apologize for being incredulous, but I'm surprised to hear that - ignoring shooter skill for the moment - that the issued service rifles and plain, ordinary ball were capable of consistent sub MOA performance.

-- Michael

Call_me_Tom
03-08-2010, 4:01 PM
I apologize for being incredulous, but I'm surprised to hear that - ignoring shooter skill for the moment - that the issued service rifles and plain, ordinary ball were capable of consistent sub MOA performance.

-- Michael
Marines have been doing it for decades.

Over the past 10 years they no longer require Marines to group prior to qualifications.

Is it equally hard to believe that Marines basically shoot the NRA High Power course & must qualify out to 500 yards using a basic service rifle & ball ammunition? Hell, last time I qualified I used an M4 carbine. I was nervous as hell shooting it at 500 yards but I still managed.

Super Spy
03-08-2010, 4:14 PM
I had a Browning Falling Block Single Shot in 7mm Rem. I could shoot 3/8" groups at 100 yards with optics. I don't consider myself to be an exceptional shot so the gun was probably capable of better.

Endless
03-08-2010, 4:26 PM
3" at 100 yards is plenty good for most purposes. 1.5" is excellent. An accurate gun is an interesting gun, yes, but I think sometimes we get tunnel vision when talking about marksmanship and lose sight of utility. What is it you want to to do with the rifle, and are you and the rifle adequate for that purpose? That's all you need to ask yourself.

I agree with you. 3 inches at 100 yards is good shooting IMO.

joefreas
03-10-2010, 9:20 PM
Like Harry Potterfield always says, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."
Midway USA

Mendo223
03-10-2010, 10:14 PM
everytime im at chabot i see guys shooting like 7inch MOAs hahah. its funny seeing guys with 2500 dollar ar15s with acogs shooting chocolate chip cookie patterns..

personally i can get like 2-3inches at 50 if im lucky, at 100 forget about it...my AR15 isnt sighted that properly yet still something i gotta work out.

ar15barrels
03-10-2010, 11:11 PM
Like Harry Potterfield always says, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."

ummm, NO.

Townsend Whelen said that about 70 years earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Townsend_Whelen

FMJBT
03-10-2010, 11:17 PM
LOL

This:
http://www.ruralmissouri.org/Images/RuralMissouri/Dec08/Potterfield-0024.jpg

+ This:
http://languageisavirus.com/harry-potter/layouts/harry-potter/harry-potter-young.jpg

= Harry Potterfield??? :eek:

ar15barrels
03-10-2010, 11:36 PM
LOL

This:
http://www.ruralmissouri.org/Images/RuralMissouri/Dec08/Potterfield-0024.jpg

+ This:
http://languageisavirus.com/harry-potter/layouts/harry-potter/harry-potter-young.jpg

= Harry Potterfield??? :eek:

:rofl2:

I once bought a stock on ebay from one of larry potterfield's kids.
From looking at his other feedbacks, he was into punk rock vinyl records as well.
The stock shipped to me from midway.

joefreas
03-11-2010, 8:25 AM
:yes: Kind of an ongoing joke we have. "And that's the way it is."

If you watch Wednesday night at the range you'll get it-