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Len
03-04-2010, 7:31 AM
I am looking for an easy to purchase, CA legal, MOA or better semi auto in .308 besides an M1A, whats available?

frigginchi
03-04-2010, 7:45 AM
remington R-25
http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/remington-r25

http://www.ddsranch.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=277_290_349&products_id=625&zenid=3r7t8lf7vi7sve791ta716gmh6

http://www.remington.com/~/media/Images/Firearms/Centerfire/Model-R25/Model-R-25-Rifle/r-25-prod.ashx?w=570&bc=ffffff

Hoop
03-04-2010, 7:58 AM
That or build your own, plenty of choices out there at the moment. All depends on how much you want to spend.

skkeeter
03-04-2010, 8:36 AM
When I think of an accurate .308, M1A doesn't come to mind. Generally speaking.

Len
03-04-2010, 8:36 AM
Remmy R25
So you use a BB and a 10 round mag?
Where to buy one or a cousin of this in the San Diego area ?

X-NewYawker
03-04-2010, 8:48 AM
When I think of an accurate .308, M1A doesn't come to mind. Generally speaking.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/2007_camp_perry/m1carbine/IMG_3682_900.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/2007_camp_perry/m1carbine/index.htm&usg=__3AKaSOGxwDTLuM04nPyyy5p-WVk=&h=900&w=614&sz=160&hl=en&start=38&sig2=dMtKS-VyHq1i59yZPJQx6Q&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=GAbhV6LKY0k50M:&tbnh=146&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcamp%2Bperry%2Bnational%2Bmatches%26s tart%3D21%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client %3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3D isch:1&ei=C_KPS4frBYbytAOYt82pCA

dfletcher
03-04-2010, 8:51 AM
I don't know how easy they are to find, but I have a 1943 rebuilt Garand in .308 that fits the bill. Adjustable peep rear, globe front sight. Bought it from SJGE, someone dumped a fair amount of money into it before me.

frigginchi
03-04-2010, 9:45 AM
It comes with a 4 round mag. All you need is a BB or MMG or Solar Tactical grip cover. I'm not sure how DD's ships his. W/O pistol grip or BB installed. Give him a call(716)937-7779. Uses DPMS style mags. Found @ www.44mag.com. I think for what you get it is a pretty good deal.


Remmy R25
So you use a BB and a 10 round mag?
Where to buy one or a cousin of this in the San Diego area ?

nrakid88
03-04-2010, 11:43 AM
remington R-25
http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/remington-r25

http://www.ddsranch.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=277_290_349&products_id=625&zenid=3r7t8lf7vi7sve791ta716gmh6

http://www.remington.com/~/media/Images/Firearms/Centerfire/Model-R25/Model-R-25-Rifle/r-25-prod.ashx?w=570&bc=ffffff

+10000 I spent $1440 on mine, and my first time out, with iron sights, and cheap wal mart fmj .308, I shot a 100 yard five shot group that (minus one flyer that opened it up to 2moa) was a 1moa group. Not bad at all in my book.

nrakid88
03-04-2010, 11:43 AM
Oh, and btw the 4 round mag it comes with you can take out the base plate, pull the two limiters out, and it becomes a dpms ten rounder

Jpach
03-04-2010, 1:29 PM
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/2007_camp_perry/m1carbine/IMG_3682_900.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/2007_camp_perry/m1carbine/index.htm&usg=__3AKaSOGxwDTLuM04nPyyy5p-WVk=&h=900&w=614&sz=160&hl=en&start=38&sig2=dMtKS-VyHq1i59yZPJQx6Q&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=GAbhV6LKY0k50M:&tbnh=146&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcamp%2Bperry%2Bnational%2Bmatches%26s tart%3D21%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client %3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26ndsp%3D21%26tbs%3D isch:1&ei=C_KPS4frBYbytAOYt82pCA

Those pics are of people with M1 Carbines :p

But yes there is a M1A linky at the bottom of the page :D

Ive seens some damn accurate M1As before but they ended up costing quite a bit of $$$. Still accurate though.

swerv512
03-04-2010, 2:07 PM
MOA or better out of an autoloader bascially means AR platform for the cheapest route. yes, you can get your M1A/FAL/HK91 to shoot MOA, but it'll cost you some serious $$$
Most .308 autoloaders were made as "battle rifles"- meaning Minute of Torso accuracy...

BKTJ
03-04-2010, 2:36 PM
A DPMS LAR308 upper can be had for $600 and they will shoot 1/2" all day long. I own several and even the 16" AP4 shoots sub moa. You will need a CMMG, POF, FULTON or IRON RIDGE lower ($250-$400), $50-$75 lower parts kit and a stock of choice. A 308/7.62 build is possible for about $1k unless you go with a high dollar stock. For an inexpensive choice, go with a DPMS Pradus complete.308 stock with correct spring & buffer kit (available at Brownells for just over $50).
The Remington R25 is made by DPMS and the upper and lower are the same as DPMS. Remingtons parent company owns DPMS, Remington and Bushmaster. I don't care for the Remington R25, because that finish looks like crap when worn or chipped. Plus the finish is damaged easily with some solvents and oils.

Rekrab
03-04-2010, 2:59 PM
BKTJ, do you use the Pradus stock? I was looking at that as a budget stock for my first build.

ElvenSoul
03-04-2010, 3:04 PM
what no FAL, Saiga, or PTR 91 Love??????????

BKTJ
03-04-2010, 3:11 PM
I use the Pardus on the shorter 16" & 18" barrel builds. Its sturdy and includes $35 worth of spring and buffer. That spring/buffer and tube can be used in any carbine stock. I have beat a couple Pardus stocks and they hold up very well.
For my long 24" I use the Magpul PRS.

Rekrab
03-04-2010, 3:17 PM
Gotcha, I keep going back and forth on whether or not to cheap out on my stock for a 24" build. Was hoping the Pradus might be good enough.

TZL
03-04-2010, 3:25 PM
Aren't many sub-MOA FALs, Saigas, or PTRs, great rifles though

what no FAL, Saiga, or PTR 91 Love??????????

BKTJ
03-04-2010, 3:32 PM
The 24" is a heavy beast and way to heavy to hump in the bush. Its great from the bench and as accurate as any bolt. You will probably be happier with an A2 rifle stock or the high dollar PRS. The body of most AR15 stocks will work, butyou need to change out the buffer and spring. The good news is that Midway usually has both (spring & buffer) in stock. If you go the PRS route, buy the 308 version to clear the charge handle.
I hunt hogs with an AP4 16" and Pardus stock. Its a lightweight in class and still tips the scale at around 12lbs.

ILVSMOG
03-04-2010, 3:47 PM
I didn't care for the look of the R-25, so I built my own.
Iron Ridge lower
DPMS lpk w. Bill Springfield trigger
DPMS 18" .308 upper
Armalite A2 stock set
Magpul MAID grip
Magpul 308 mag

I still need optics and a mount, but I've only got about $1200 in the rifle as it's shown in my crummy camera phone picture.
http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy246/dontlindsey/AR308.jpg

Len
03-04-2010, 3:48 PM
A DPMS LAR308 upper can be had for $600 and they will shoot 1/2" all day long. I own several and even the 16" AP4 shoots sub moa. You will need a CMMG, POF, FULTON or IRON RIDGE lower ($250-$400), $50-$75 lower parts kit and a stock of choice. A 308/7.62 build is possible for about $1k unless you go with a high dollar stock. For an inexpensive choice, go with a DPMS Pradus complete.308 stock with correct spring & buffer kit (available at Brownells for just over $50).
The Remington R25 is made by DPMS and the upper and lower are the same as DPMS. Remingtons parent company owns DPMS, Remington and Bushmaster. I don't care for the Remington R25, because that finish looks like crap when worn or chipped. Plus the finish is damaged easily with some solvents and oils.

Where do I buy the lower here in the SD area?

Rekrab
03-04-2010, 4:42 PM
Or a Tactical Machining lower for $200. Once I get mine I'll post up pics and give folks my impressions.

Of course I'm a total AR nub and wouldn't know what to look for.

Synergy
03-04-2010, 5:15 PM
I know some here are anti Fulton, but dont count them out for an accurate rifle.

Shooting the Titan exceeded our expectations - the rifle ran with total reliability and excellent accuracy. The Titan's accuracy (0.6" average group at 100 yards with Hornady 168-gr TAP) was as good as some bolt action rifles we have tested. The bottom line is that Fulton has built a custom rifle with the best components available at a very reasonable price. If our test carbine was any indication, Fulton Armory has hit a home run with its new FAR-308 Titan.

Article listed on their website under the Titan .308 pages
http://www.fulton-armory.com/

Rekrab
03-04-2010, 5:21 PM
Yeah, after reading their statement on California I have absolutely no interest in doing business with them. I was going to buy their side-charger upper receiver since the're the only one that makes one in DPMS pattern. Too bad, I would have liked to get one of those.

Argonaut
03-04-2010, 5:37 PM
I had an early Armscorp M1a that shot a lot of 1/4 inch 100 yard groups. It was built with national match parts and a match barrel for me by USAF armor that used to work on Camp Perry match rifles. it was not exotic or expensive. I have a very nice original Steyr FN Fal that is worth 3 times as much and won't hold a candle to the M1a on the range. The AR Platforms were never considered a particularly accurate rifle either. I don't know what is going on with the current M1a's but I know originals are being refurb and put back into service as sniper rifles. The Grand/M14 platform was always considered a far more accurate system than the Armalite systems. Off course, not as sexy as a AR platform to a mall Ninja!!!!

neal0124
03-04-2010, 5:55 PM
Where do I buy the lower here in the SD area?

Go to JD machine. They make awesome lowers and are a little cheaper than most others. They are in San Diego.

G-Solutions
03-04-2010, 6:06 PM
what no FAL, Saiga, or PTR 91 Love??????????

Gabe Suarez just published a newsletter today about the "Saigunov":

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/SaigaSniperSuppressor2.jpg

Obviously the suppressor is not an item that would be on a CA-version :rolleyes:.

Converting the Saiga .308 to this configuration is not cheap, but you get a very robust rifle out of it. Not sure about the MOA-rating, but I expect it to be decent or better....

The off-the-shelf base is sitting in the safe awaiting funds for the various upgrades.

BKTJ
03-04-2010, 6:07 PM
All my lowers came from out of state dealers. I watched for deals and bought when they got sub $300 for the POF and at $250 for the CMMG. Most of the local dealers will order for them for you, but at retail. It doesn't pay for them to stock 308 lowers, as they are a slow seller. The best deal I got was off Gunbroker (had to buy 3) $275 for the POF lowers. Most of the lowers have small issues. The POF needs a bushing for the pin holes and CMMG has really tight mag wells. For fit and finish POF has been the best, uses regular AR15 LPK and as a plus they come with the ambi bolt release. I made the pin sleves from stainless tubing, cost $7 for 1' and that made 8 sleves.
I dumped my Fulton stuff due to their anti Cal stand.

UBFRAGD
03-04-2010, 6:54 PM
The reason, in 2010, you would choose an AR308 over an M1A/M14 is how highly and easily configurable the AR is, how many people have jumped on the lr/dpms308 bandwagon and how much stuff there is out there and the demand for it. It's a strong market. I don't know jack about the market so I wonder if dmps/lr308 stuff is outselling M1A/M14 yet, I think we should be there already. When I think of freestaters sending 20 rounds of 308 downrange in a modern platform, I think about moving to Nevada.

The reason, in 2010, you would choose a M1A/M14 platform over an AR308 platform is because you have enough money to plonk down initially, spend a lot of money to customize it, but love the INCOMPARABLE, visceral appeal of that action. It's Nam. It's the most machine-gunny thing you will ever touch outside of the military. It's torso accurate for sure, but the weird thing is, it is torso accurate at ranges. For instance, I zeroed my SA NM M1A at a hundred with a specific type of ammo. Then I memorized a sloppy ballistic drop chart. So when I go to knockin', I hold my sights that much above the torso. I use BOTH kentucky windage and elevation and still get the pop-ting pop-ting that I need. It's the best rifle for "Canyon Shooting" ever. If I take a shot at range, and can see the hit as a puff of dirt or dust, I can make the needed adjustment and just make hit after hit pretty quickly. So it's not a CQB or LRP (Long Range Precision) but the accuraccy shouldn't be getting knocked. The internet hates the combination of good eyes and iron sights since the internet is not much of a shooter.....

G-Solutions
03-04-2010, 7:05 PM
For instance, I zeroed my SA NM M1A at a hundred with a specific type of ammo. Then I memorized a sloppy ballistic drop chart. So when I go to knockin', I hold my sights that much above the torso. I use BOTH kentucky windage and elevation and still get the pop-ting pop-ting that I need. It's the best rifle for "Canyon Shooting" ever. If I take a shot at range, and can see the hit as a puff of dirt or dust, I can make the needed adjustment and just make hit after hit pretty quickly.....

...and that makes your shooting efficient!

Hoop
03-04-2010, 7:32 PM
I had an early Armscorp M1a that shot a lot of 1/4 inch 100 yard groups. It was built with national match parts and a match barrel for me by USAF armor that used to work on Camp Perry match rifles. it was not exotic or expensive. I have a very nice original Steyr FN Fal that is worth 3 times as much and won't hold a candle to the M1a on the range. The AR Platforms were never considered a particularly accurate rifle either. I don't know what is going on with the current M1a's but I know originals are being refurb and put back into service as sniper rifles. The Grand/M14 platform was always considered a far more accurate system than the Armalite systems. Off course, not as sexy as a AR platform to a mall Ninja!!!!

LOL

phish
03-04-2010, 8:01 PM
kek

bomb_on_bus
03-04-2010, 8:38 PM
ummmmm to name a few,

DPMS .308
Fulton Armory .308
JP enterprises .308
LMT .308
LWRC .308
POF .308
MGSS .308
Larue .308
J&J .308
WOA .308


Im sure theres lots more so people please add to the list!:D

FMJBT
03-04-2010, 8:47 PM
PTR MSG-91, they even make a CA compliant version. Read a magazine review of this rifle, seemed pretty decent and held 3/4 moa.

http://www.ptr91.com/

C.G.
03-04-2010, 9:21 PM
Somehow AR-10 clones, Aero and Noveske have not been mentioned in spite of the fact that Armalite has been in the business of .308 a lot longer than DPMS.

Synergy
03-04-2010, 9:35 PM
Yeah, after reading their statement on California I have absolutely no interest in doing business with them. I was going to buy their side-charger upper receiver since the're the only one that makes one in DPMS pattern. Too bad, I would have liked to get one of those.

Maybe if more CA people did business with them, they would be more familiar with our FUBAR laws, kinda like what happened with Larue.

They will sell the upper to you no problem. The lower they have a uninformed problem with. They didnt have a problem when the billing address to my CC was in CA and shipping my lowers to my FFL in AZ. ;)

J_Rock
03-04-2010, 11:26 PM
I had an early Armscorp M1a that shot a lot of 1/4 inch 100 yard groups. It was built with national match parts and a match barrel for me by USAF armor that used to work on Camp Perry match rifles. it was not exotic or expensive. I have a very nice original Steyr FN Fal that is worth 3 times as much and won't hold a candle to the M1a on the range. The AR Platforms were never considered a particularly accurate rifle either. I don't know what is going on with the current M1a's but I know originals are being refurb and put back into service as sniper rifles. The Grand/M14 platform was always considered a far more accurate system than the Armalite systems. Off course, not as sexy as a AR platform to a mall Ninja!!!!

:rofl2: :rofl2: :rofl2:

Why spend all that money on custom bolt actions when you can just get an armscorp M1a :rofl2:

Peter W Bush
03-05-2010, 12:27 AM
I had an early Armscorp M1a that shot a lot of 1/4 inch 100 yard groups. It was built with national match parts and a match barrel for me by USAF armor that used to work on Camp Perry match rifles. it was not exotic or expensive. I have a very nice original Steyr FN Fal that is worth 3 times as much and won't hold a candle to the M1a on the range. The AR Platforms were never considered a particularly accurate rifle either. I don't know what is going on with the current M1a's but I know originals are being refurb and put back into service as sniper rifles. The Grand/M14 platform was always considered a far more accurate system than the Armalite systems. Off course, not as sexy as a AR platform to a mall Ninja!!!!

lol k

corrupt
03-05-2010, 12:29 AM
Did it shoot "a lot" of 1/4 inch two-shot groups

pyro3k2
03-05-2010, 12:48 AM
The AR Platforms were never considered a particularly accurate rifle either.... Off course, not as sexy as a AR platform to a mall Ninja!!!!

...I am at a loss of words right now.

Kiba
03-05-2010, 7:24 AM
I own a few examples of what are typically the first "accurate" .308 semi autos that come to mind and are being talked about in this thread. I own a Fulton Peerless M1A with a heavy Krieger barrel (fully accurized national-match build), a LRB M25 built by Ted Brown (fully accurized as well in a JAE stock), and I also have an Armalite-pattern AR-10 with a 24" heavy barreled upper. I also have a STG-58 FAL, but being an 18" barrel carbine it doesn't really apply to this situation.

Here's my experience in a nutshell: The AR-10 shoots better than both the M1A's which are accurized rifles handbuilt by gunsmiths with very good reputations in the M1A circles. The AR-10 on the other hand uses an Aero lower and a 24" heavy barrel Armalite/Eagle arms upper I picked up on sale from Armalite for $600.

The bottom line is this: my AR-10 at around $1500 minus optics costs less than 50% of my cheapest M1A... and outshoots both the M1A's.

The basic rundown is that an M1A has all sorts of things that can influence accuracy that need attention and fine tuning... stock fit & bedding, trigger group tension, barrel ferrule tension, an oprod and spring that puts pressure on the barrel and moves around every shot, etc. An AR-10 on the other hand has nothing hanging off the barrel except a thin gas tube and there are no worries about bedding, stock flex, gas piston cleanliness, etc. As long as you hang a good barrel off the front of an AR platform and use a free float handguard it is almost guaranteed to be accurate.

You can get an M1A to be accurate... but it needs some TLC to get there and because of all the contact points, moving parts hanging off the barrel, etc all need to be "just right" to achieve that level of accuracy. That level of fine tuning means a higher price and it also means you might have to "tweak" some of those contact/wear points over the life of the barrel to maintain that accuracy. Remember, you are trying to turn the M1A (which was designed as a battle rifle) into something it wasn't intended to be (an accuracy rifle.) Yes, a good gunsmith can make them accurate but there are inherent limitations in the platform.

With an AR-10 on the other hand you just put a good barrel and free float handguard on the upper and shoot until you wear the barrel out as there are no extra contact or wear points that influence the barrel. The AR platform is just much more suited to accuracy with the free floating barrel, no moving parts hanging off the barrel or stock contact with the barrel, no worries about stock bedding/flex.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying an M1A can't be accurate (they usually are pretty accurate for a semi-auto, my experience has been most "standard" M1A rifles average about 1.5-2 MOA for 10-shot groups at 200Y while handbuilt accurized ones are usually around 1 MOA) but an AR-10 variant, as long as it has a decent barrel and a free float handguard will shoot right there with and often better than the accurized M1A's.

The other huge plus for the AR platform is optics mounting; you already have a rail on the top, just pick your rings/mount and a scope and you're done. If you get a standard M1A you need a mount. The good ones are somewhat expensive (around $250) and if your receiver was cast/machined out of spec you might have a poor fitting mount or you might even have to have a place like Sadlak make you a custom-fit mount for the best lockup. The other option is to get the LRB M25 receiver with a built in scope rail-- the M25 receiver takes all the problems out of mounting an optic on an M1A because of the built in rail but you still have restricted bolt and chamber access for cleaning purposes plus the ejection path of the M1A means the ejecting brass is probably going to put a few marks in your scope's windage knob especially if it's a tall target knob.

As far as to why I keep the M1A's around when the cheaper AR-10 outshoots them... I just like the M1A platform. They feel and sound neat and that's enough reason for me to keep them. My Fulton Peerless is in a heavy match walnut stock and it's very pretty to look at plus the M1A national match iron sights are fantastic. It's just fun to take it up to the steel range. The LRB M25 looks cool and is fun to shoot as well. The LRB was also a 2 year plus quest of finding all TRW USGI parts on my own and then having it built exactly as I wanted it so I'm kind of attached to it.

In summary, if you want a sub-MOA .308 semi auto my experience has been that you'll have the best chance of meeting that accuracy goal for the least investment if you start with an AR-style rifle.

Len
03-05-2010, 8:46 AM
Wow, JD Machine gets almost $400.00 just for a stripped lower, how are you guys putting together these ARs for 1200-1500 dollars?

Kiba
03-05-2010, 9:08 AM
Wow, JD Machine gets almost $400.00 just for a stripped lower, how are you guys putting together these ARs for 1200-1500 dollars?

Yep, the lower is usually the component with the biggest price difference between a .308 AR and an AR-15.

Shop around and hope for some luck... here's now my AR-10 build worked out:

Aero Precision lower: $300
Armalite LPK without trigger: $65
Jewell Trigger, used off the classifieds here: $100
Armalite/Eagle 24" Hbar upper, on sale $600
Buffer tube, buffer, and spring: $60
Magpul PRS stock: $225
Sierra Precision thumbrest grip: $25
Magpul winter trigger guard: $20

Total: $1405

I spent more on the scope than I did building the rifle.

Biggest savings was the upper (normally $925, on sale during Camp Perry for $600) and the Jewell trigger (usually around $225 new, found a used one here in the classifieds for $100 and snagged it before anyone else did.)

I could have built it for probably just under $1000 if I used a standard trigger, standard A2 stock, standard grip and standard trigger guard.

There are good deals on .308 AR's in the classifieds here from time to time... the luck is finding one configured the way you want that's close to you.

scewper
03-05-2010, 10:00 AM
I had an early Armscorp M1a that shot a lot of 1/4 inch 100 yard groups. It was built with national match parts and a match barrel for me by USAF armor that used to work on Camp Perry match rifles. it was not exotic or expensive. I have a very nice original Steyr FN Fal that is worth 3 times as much and won't hold a candle to the M1a on the range. The AR Platforms were never considered a particularly accurate rifle either. I don't know what is going on with the current M1a's but I know originals are being refurb and put back into service as sniper rifles. The Grand/M14 platform was always considered a far more accurate system than the Armalite systems. Off course, not as sexy as a AR platform to a mall Ninja!!!!

All of my rifles shoot 1/4" 1-shot groups too.

skkeeter
03-05-2010, 10:08 AM
All of my rifles shoot 1/4" 1-shot groups too.

Amazing, My SocomII will do the same thing:D

Rekrab
03-05-2010, 10:13 AM
Wow, JD Machine gets almost $400.00 just for a stripped lower, how are you guys putting together these ARs for 1200-1500 dollars?

If you go DPMS, you can get a stripped Tactical Machining Lower for $200. So far it's the cheapest lower I've seen on the market. AeroPrecision from 762Sass.com is the next cheapest at $299ish.

vf111
03-05-2010, 10:14 AM
I own a few examples of what are typically the first "accurate" .308 semi autos that come to mind and are being talked about in this thread. I own a Fulton Peerless M1A with a heavy Krieger barrel (fully accurized national-match build), a LRB M25 built by Ted Brown (fully accurized as well in a JAE stock), and I also have an Armalite-pattern AR-10 with a 24" heavy barreled upper. I also have a STG-58 FAL, but being an 18" barrel carbine it doesn't really apply to this situation.

Here's my experience in a nutshell: The AR-10 shoots better than both the M1A's which are accurized rifles handbuilt by gunsmiths with very good reputations in the M1A circles. The AR-10 on the other hand uses an Aero lower and a 24" heavy barrel Armalite/Eagle arms upper I picked up on sale from Armalite for $600.

The bottom line is this: the AR-10 at around $1500 minus optics costs less than 50% of my cheapest M1A... and outshoots both the M1A's.

The basic rundown is that an M1A has all sorts of things that can influence accuracy that need attention and fine tuning... stock fit & bedding, trigger group tension, barrel ferrule tension, an oprod and spring that puts pressure on the barrel and moves around every shot, etc. An AR-10 on the other hand has nothing hanging off the barrel except a thin gas tube and there are no worries about bedding, stock flex, gas piston cleanliness, etc. As long as you hang a good barrel off the front of an AR platform and use a free float handguard it is almost guaranteed to be accurate.

You can get an M1A to be accurate... but it needs some TLC to get there and because of all the contact points, moving parts hanging off the barrel, etc all need to be "just right" to achieve that level off accuracy. That level of fine tuning means a higher price and it also means you might have to "tweak" some of those contact/wear points over the life of the barrel to maintain that accuracy. Remember, you are trying to turn the M1A (which was designed as a battle rifle) into something it wasn't intended to be (an accuracy rifle.) Yes, a good gunsmith can make them accurate but there are inherent limitations in the platform.

With an AR-10 on the other hand you just put a good barrel and free float handguard on the upper and shoot until you wear the barrel out as there are no extra contact or wear points that influence the barrel. The AR platform is just much more suited to accuracy with the free floating barrel, no moving parts hanging off the barrel or stock contact with the barrel, no worries about stock bedding/flex.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying an M1A can't be accurate (they usually are pretty accurate for a semi-auto, my experience has been most "standard" M1A rifles average about 1.5-2 MOA for 10-shot groups at 200Y while handbuilt accurized ones are usually around 1 MOA) but an AR-10 variant, as long as it has a decent barrel and a free float handguard will shoot right there with and often better than the accurized M1A's.

The other huge plus for the AR platform is optics mounting; you already have a rail on the top, just pick your rings/mount and a scope and you're done. If you get a standard M1A you need a mount. The good ones are somewhat expensive (around $250) and if your receiver was cast/machined out of spec you might have a poor fitting mount or you might even have to have a place like Sadlak make you a custom-fit mount for the best lockup. The other option is to get the LRB M25 receiver with a built in scope rail-- the M25 receiver takes all the problems out of mounting an optic on an M1A because of the built in rail but you still have restricted bolt and chamber access for cleaning purposes plus the ejection path of the M1A means the ejecting brass is probably going to put a few marks in your scope's windage knob especially if it's a tall target knob.

As far as to why I keep the M1A's around when the cheaper AR-10 outshoots them... I just like the M1A platform. They feel and sound neat and that's enough reason for me to keep them. My Fulton Peerless is in a heavy match walnut stock and it's very pretty to look at plus the M1A national match iron sights are fantastic. It's just fun to take it up to the steel range. The LRB M25 looks cool and is fun to shoot as well. The LRB was also a 2 year plus quest of finding all TRW USGI parts on my own and then having it built exactly as I wanted it so I'm kind of attached to it.

In summary, if you want a sub-MOA .308 semi auto my experience has been that you'll have the best chance of meeting that accuracy goal for the least investment if you start with an AR-style rifle.

Excellent post. While I'm an M14 fanboy, I can't disagree with anything you've written. An AR-10 is inherently more accurate than an M14 based wholly on the way they're designed. One thing to keep in mind is the M14 is based on a 1930's design (M1 Garand) while the AR-10 is based on a more modular and modern design. Call me old fashioned but there's just....something.....about steel and wood that aluminum and plastic can't match.

frigginchi
03-05-2010, 10:26 AM
I think The original AR10 was developed in the early 50s. M14 was developed in 1954.

Excellent post. While I'm an M14 fanboy, I can't disagree with anything you've written. An AR-10 is inherently more accurate than an M14 based wholly on the way they're designed. One thing to keep in mind is the M14 is based on a 1930's design (M1 Garand) while the AR-10 is based on a more modular and modern design. Call me old fashioned but there's just....something.....about steel and wood that aluminum and plastic can't match.

E Pluribus Unum
03-05-2010, 10:30 AM
I think The original AR10 was developed in the early 50s. M14 was developed in 1954.

Development of the AR10 started in 1956 and ended in 1960.

frigginchi
03-05-2010, 10:33 AM
Something like that :) What I was trying to say is that they were developed roughly at the same time.

Development of the AR10 started in 1956 and ended in 1960.

Kiba
03-05-2010, 10:37 AM
Excellent post. While I'm an M14 fanboy, I can't disagree with anything you've written. An AR-10 is inherently more accurate than an M14 based wholly on the way they're designed. One thing to keep in mind is the M14 is based on a 1930's design (M1 Garand) while the AR-10 is based on a more modular and modern design. Call me old fashioned but there's just....something.....about steel and wood that aluminum and plastic can't match.

Wow. It's usually the M1A fanboys who get all flustered when you say the AR platform is more accurate... doesn't matter at that point if you own both platforms even when you present them with facts. :p

I recognize the inherent design limitations and difficulties in accurizing an M1A and therefore don't have false expections as to what kind of accuracy they will consistently achieve. It's pretty amazing to me they shoot as well as they do with all the "stuff" that touches the barrel and moves around with every shot-- and they do it with a very high record of reliability.

I don't hate M1A's-- otherwise I wouldn't own two of them. I like both the M1A and the AR-10... therefore I own both. And like you said, it's hard to beat the feel of a wood stocked M1A. That's why I like my Fulton so much. Besides, having one or a couple of each platform gives you more options when you go out shooting. :D

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/m1a.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/m251.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/ar10.jpg

frigginchi
03-05-2010, 10:50 AM
You can have your wood :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Ar-10.jpg
http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/products/pu_wood.gif

vf111
03-05-2010, 10:52 AM
http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/m1a.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~swedish_chef/stuff/ForumStuff/ar10.jpg

Steel & wood - it's like looking at a young Grace Kelly... :D
AR's - like looking at Lady Gaga...:43:

Len
03-05-2010, 10:53 AM
If you go DPMS, you can get a stripped Tactical Machining Lower for $200. So far it's the cheapest lower I've seen on the market. AeroPrecision from 762Sass.com is the next cheapest at $299ish.

Where can I buy the Tactical Machining lower?

vf111
03-05-2010, 10:55 AM
Wow. It's usually the M1A fanboys who get all flustered when you say the AR platform is more accurate... doesn't matter at that point if you own both platforms even when you present them with facts. :p



I don't get too bent out of shape over the AR vs. M14 argument. They both have their place in the civilian world and both currently have their place in .mil. I have both - I just happen like the M14 platform a lot more.

Rekrab
03-05-2010, 10:57 AM
Here: http://www.tacticalmachining.com/category.php?cid=12

Unfortunately it looks like they're out of stock. At that price I'm not surprised. You might want to call and ask when they expect to have more. They're very friendly and helpful over the phone. I purchased mine on a Friday night and they had it shipped on Monday morning. Still waiting on Delivery, should come in on Monday.

Grassninja
03-05-2010, 11:36 AM
The M14 distributes a uniquely American brand of justice, firing bald eagles down range to eat the hearts out of the enemy. :79:

.308 AR's do not...

And before someone comes at me with some M110 debate, I'm just playing around. ;)

X-NewYawker
03-05-2010, 12:53 PM
All of my rifles shoot 1/4" 1-shot groups too.

I had a Remngton VSSF in .223 shoot 1/4 inch out of the box, stock trigger, LOD stock from McMillan -- with 55 grain Remington Match ammo.
So of course I sold it.
No fun.

X-NewYawker
03-05-2010, 12:54 PM
PS -- they BOTH cost too much! A gun shouldn't cost what a Datsun B-210 cost in 1977!

evollep3
03-05-2010, 3:38 PM
When I think of an accurate .308, M1A doesn't come to mind. Generally speaking.

same here first thing that comes to mind is a Bolt Gun and Skeets DTA