Handguns and SUV's

[Gromulin]

I have a question, that may sound dumb, but it's based on a conversation with a Stanislaus Deputy last month:

Is it possible to transport a handgun and mags/ammo legally, in California, in a station wagon/SUV that does not have a seperate "trunk"? Even if the gun is in a locked container?

I'm curious because I have a subaru wagon, and usually transport the gun in a locked case, with the ammo and (unloaded) mags in my range bag. But both are in the same compartment as me, obviously.

Do the mags have to be unloaded even if they are not "attached" to the weapon?:confused:

[Josh]

yes, the law just states that the trunk is considered a locked container. Its in addition to.

You can also just use a locked case.

As to the mags, some say yes some say no. I keep them unloaded during transport.

[C.G.]

I transport my handguns in a locked container in the back of my SUV. If I am going to the range, I do load my mags, but put them in a separate, locked container.

[EBWhite]

I was reading the CRPA law handbook and it states that if the gun is unloaded and in plain sight then it can be carried unlocked. (ie. sitting on your passenger seat). However, it might raise an eyebrow or two and you could get arrested by a cop that does not know the law....

is it worth it? not really...

[CALI-gula]

For the most part, it should be an area of the car not accessible by the driver while the car is moving, and should be in a locked case. If you have it in a back hatch area, then you should be fine, but just for safety sake of preventing your car from being broken into, you should keep it covered or hidden.

I have pondered and bounced this question numerous times because I own both a 1966 Ranchero (like an El Camino) and an Dynaglide with hard case saddlebags. When in the Ranchero, I store any handguns in a locked case in the storage compartments behind the seat where the spare tire and tools go, without ammo, by which the driver can not access while driving (which is like a trunk). It's nearly invisible, and honestly, unless you know to look there, that compartment is not even detectable - even in a police stop.

Side note: I was once stopped in my Ranchero for not wearing seat-belts - but I was wearing it; the young LAPD female officer did not realize that my car was a 1966, and that many cars did not come with shoulder belts, she thought my Ranchero was a later model (it's customized with a modern look).

On the bike, I put any handguns in the locked case, in the locked saddlebags. Now I know the locked trunk needs to be a permanent part of the car and not removable or an add-on (such as a truck's bed tool box, no matter how attached or lockable) if the firearm is not in a locked case, so the question of whether I am legal in using the saddlebags is up for grabs - I think if I have it in a locekd case in the locke dbags, all should be fine.

Anyone here can tell me I am breaking the "law". That may be. The way I see it, if they want to call me breaking the law by my having it in a locked case, in the locked saddlebag reachable by the driver, then so be it - it's not a glove compartment. I think in court a judge would dismiss that as a logical person having done due diligence to lock up their firearm, especially if few other laws were broken in the process (as I am law abiding, that would be the only thing they would need to get me on).


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[Gromulin]

Side note:
...Now I (k)now the locked trunk needs to be a permanent part of the car and not removable or an add-on (such as a truck's bed tool box, no matter how attached or lockable) .:confused:

Why? I also have a space-case storage pod that goes on the roof rack, and locks just like a trunk. Why would LE have a problem with that? You'd think they'd prefer that. I

How about transporting in a tent-trailer (or any other trailer, for that matter). Do the same locked-case rules apply when the handgun is in a towed vehicle?

I just can't get a grip on some of these legal interpretaions...makes my head hurt just trying to think like these lesgislators.

[metalhead357]

:confused:


How about transporting in a tent-trailer (or any other trailer, for that matter). Do the same locked-case rules apply when the handgun is in a towed vehicle?



Its a SEPERATE vehicle....... I'd say you're safe. But lock that tent trailer door just to be safe:p

[1911_sfca]

I was reading the CRPA law handbook and it states that if the gun is unloaded and in plain sight then it can be carried unlocked. (ie. sitting on your passenger seat). However, it might raise an eyebrow or two and you could get arrested by a cop that does not know the law....

This is only true for long guns. Concealable guns (i.e. handguns) must be in a locked container.

[82a1]

I've actually been thinking about getting an SUV or truck. Currently, I drive a little foreign car (too small for me - I'm 6'3" 240) that has very little trunk space (good gas mileage though). It's okay for handguns, but not my long guns. I've tried squeezing my .50's into the trunk and that won't work cuz my rear seats won't fold down. So, whenever I bring them to the range, I have no choice but to put them on the passenger seat. This makes me a little paranoid because of possible questioning from an LEO. What if he pulled me over and said, "hmmm....what's this big case here?" So, just to be safe, I drive extremely carefully and use cable locks when traveling with guns.

[EBWhite]

This is only true for long guns. Concealable guns (i.e. handguns) must be in a locked container.


You are correct but as long as a handgun is fully in plain sight (ie on top of the passenger seat or the dash) then you can legally carry it not in a locked case. Read page 6 of the CRPA booklet called "summary of california gun laws."

Even though it is legal, they do not advise it since a officer not knowing the law might still arrest you but it would be thrown out of court.

[CALI-gula]

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOR ASSAULT WEAPONS:

12285. c) A person who has registered an assault weapon or registered a .50 BMG rifle under this section may possess it only under any of the following conditions unless a permit allowing additional uses is first obtained under Section 12286:

(7) While transporting the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle between any of the places mentioned in this subdivision, or to any licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 12290, for servicing or repair pursuant to subdivision (b) of Section 12290, if the assault weapon is transported as required by Section 12026.1.

[Charliegone]

Dude, this pisses me off. The "authorities" talk about US having to know the laws and how ignorance is not an excuse.. blah blah etc, but we have to fear a cop that DOESN'T know the law??? WTF is that? How does that make them special? Ignorance is not an excuse right? Jebus man! I bet we can even make this a case, too many gun laws for cops and other authorities to know! I bet we can rule this as unenforcable and unconstitutional....:rolleyes: oh well. Rant off.:D

[metalhead357]

Dude, this pisses me off. The "authorities" talk about US having to know the laws and how ignorance is not an excuse.. blah blah etc, but we have to fear a cop that DOESN'T know the law??? WTF is that? How does that make them special? Ignorance is not an excuse right? Jebus man! I bet we can even make this a case, too many gun laws for cops and other authorities to know! I bet we can rule this as unenforcable and unconstitutional....:rolleyes: oh well. Rant off.:D

Rant on! You said it. Welcome to America 2006......... 1984+22years.....

And get this: You are expected to KNOW the laws but a judge will tell you that you are INCAPABLE of intrepreting the laws; add in ignorance is no excuse and they've got you coming or going. Cant practice it, cant enforce it, cant intrepret it...but you're expected to "Know" it and "live it"........


Catch 22????? No, as said, just America 2006.........

Goodnight liberty wherever you are..................

Metalhead

[UberPhLuBB]

Edited. =\

[CALI-gula]

A "lock" doesn't necessarily mean a padlock either. It can be a latch, such as is found on most gun cases. So long as it locks the case closed, so that it cannot be pulled open, it is a lock. A keyed or combination padlock is not necessary.

Nope UberPhLuBB: Have you forgotten where you are? In the land of the Red Star?

According to California law, and as noted in my post above, that repeated here:

Under 12026.1.

(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

It can not simply be a latching device; it must be a locking device, and when they state similar locking device, their "similar" is in reference to prior the itemized "padlock, key lock, combination lock".

The definition of "lock" to California is about the same as their definition of the 2nd Amendment - open to interpretation!! :rolleyes:

.

[UberPhLuBB]

*sigh*

Where's that no chewing bubble gum after 10PM law? 50,000 kids a year choke on bubble gun when they fall asleep with it in their mouths. We need to save the children.

[Jicko]

I believed a loaded magazine is NOT ok <- most LE and shooting range staffs believe this too.

Do the mags have to be unloaded even if they are not "attached" to the weapon?:confused:

If I am going to the range, I do load my mags, but put them in a separate, locked container.

CA Penal Code 12031(g)
"A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm."

Also list pn Page 35 of "California Firearms Laws 2005"
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf

[UberPhLuBB]

CA Penal Code 12031(g)
"A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm."

Must be attached to the firearm to be considered loaded. Loaded magazines, separate from the firearm are fine.

[Jicko]

CA Penal Code 12031(g)
"A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm."

Must be attached to the firearm to be considered loaded. Loaded magazines, separate from the firearm are fine.

There you go, here is the MOST confusing part.... it can be read as "clip thereof attached to the firearm", so the the 3 things are:
1) firing chamber
2) magazine
3) clip that is attached to the firearm

[JALLEN]

So what is the difference between a magazine and a clip, and what if your gun uses one but not the other, or both?

[C.G.]

I believed a loaded magazine is NOT ok <- most LE and shooting range staffs believe this too.





CA Penal Code 12031(g)
"A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm."

Also list pn Page 35 of "California Firearms Laws 2005"
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf

This is page 35:




A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or attached in any
manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, the firing chamber, magazine, or clip
thereof attached to the firearm. A muzzle-loading firearm is deemed loaded when it is
capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder. (Penal
Code § 12031(g).)
For the purposes of Penal Code section 12023 (commission or attempted commission of a
felony while armed with a loaded firearm), a firearm is deemed loaded when both the
firearm and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm are
in the immediate possession of the same person.
It is unlawful for the driver of any motor vehicle, or the owner of any motor vehicle
irrespective of whether the owner is occupying the vehicle, to knowingly permit any
person to carry a loaded firearm in the vehicle in violation of Penal Code section 12031, or
Fish and Game Code section 2006. (Penal Code § 12034.) Also, see “Other Prohibited
Acts,” page 49.
In order to determine whether a firearm is loaded, peace officers are authorized to examine
any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public
place, on any public street, or in any prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to these provisions is, in
itself, grounds for arrest. (Penal Code § 12031(e).)

So how am I breaking the law when the loaded magazines are in a separate, locked container and my guns are locked in a different container with no ammo or magazines? I would like to know if I am missing something here or the LEOs and shooting range employees are. :confused:

[eje]

The way I read the statute is that the ammunition must be in the magazine, and the magazine must be in the pistol, for there to be a "loaded firearm" for purposes of PC 12031. A loaded magazine in the near vicinity doesn't cut it if the loaded magazine is not attached to the firearm.

A couple years ago they tried to change the definition of "loaded firearm" and the legislative analysis to that bill illustrates this point:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/asm/ab_2501-2550/ab_2501_cfa_20040419_135609_asm_comm.html

Here is an excerpt:

"Another variation of conduct that purportedly exploits the current definition of a 'loaded firearm' is when an individual in a vehicle disconnects the magazine from a handgun just before he or she is detained by a peace officer. Of course, to avoid any form of criminal liability in both scenarios, the individuals would have to ensure that the unloaded firearm was not concealed. If a handgun was concealed, even partially, the fact that the weapon was unloaded would not bar prosecution pursuant to Penal Code Section 12025."

[UberPhLuBB]

So what is the difference between a magazine and a clip, and what if your gun uses one but not the other, or both?

A magazine is a metal box or tube with a self-contained spring and follower. It is an active ammunition loading device, which allows ammunition to be fed into the chamber. A clip is an inanimate shaped piece of metal designed to hold ammunition while it is being fed into a magazine. No firearm I know of shoots ammunition directly from a clip. There is no debate either, a clip and a magazine are 2 different things and cannot be confused physically. The use of the term "clip" instead of "magazine" interchangably is incorrect.

These are magazines.
http://www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/30%20Round%20Pre-Band%20Magazine.jpg
http://www.popguns.com/images/Glock%20magazine.jpg

These are clips.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/Garand_clip.jpg/300px-Garand_clip.jpg
http://www.azonprodukter.se/diverse_files/image002.jpg

[CALI-gula]

The use of the term "clip" instead of "magazine" interchangably is incorrect.

I prefer the term "drum" or "belt" . :D

[gose]

12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
<snip>


Heh, so according to the text as it is written, it is impossible for any non-US citizen to transport a handgun :)

[CALI-gula]

Heh, so according to the text as it is written, it is impossible for any non-US citizen to transport a handgun :)

Key is: "...shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen..."

[gose]

Key is: "...shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen..."

Key is: "... citizen of the United States..." ;)

So if you are an US citizen you can transport a handgun under the conditions they mention, but for those of us who happen to live here without being citizens?

[bluebaron]

No...I think the emphasis is on the NOT. What follows are just additional requirements

[Jicko]

So how am I breaking the law when the loaded magazines are in a separate, locked container and my guns are locked in a different container with no ammo or magazines? I would like to know if I am missing something here or the LEOs and shooting range employees are. :confused:

CG,

I DO agree with you that a loaded magazine, shouldn't be treated as a "loaded firearm"....

Therefore, I should be able to have them on me, in my pocket, under my car seat, in my unlock compartment etc...

I DO think that all we should do is lock the firearm(pistol) etc....

Yet, I had been reminded consistantly from my LEO friends that "some of them thinks it is OK, some of them thinks it is NOT".... so, in order to avoid troubles.... try NOT to do that....

I guess, if you are caught doing that..... maybe it is up to the DA to decide if he/she wants to carry on the prosecution .... or maybe it is up to the judge and the court to decide whether you have broken the law or not....

Very likely, you will win..... but do you want to just avoid all those troubles by just NOT keep loaded magazines on you? I would..... maybe that's just me.... (even tho I really want to pre-load my magazines.....)

[C.G.]

CG,

I DO agree with you that a loaded magazine, shouldn't be treated as a "loaded firearm"....

Therefore, I should be able to have them on me, in my pocket, under my car seat, in my unlock compartment etc...

I DO think that all we should do is lock the firearm(pistol) etc....

Yet, I had been reminded consistantly from my LEO friends that "some of them thinks it is OK, some of them thinks it is NOT".... so, in order to avoid troubles.... try NOT to do that....

I guess, if you are caught doing that..... maybe it is up to the DA to decide if he/she wants to carry on the prosecution .... or maybe it is up to the judge and the court to decide whether you have broken the law or not....

Very likely, you will win..... but do you want to just avoid all those troubles by just NOT keep loaded magazines on you? I would..... maybe that's just me.... (even tho I really want to pre-load my magazines.....)

In this instance I am willing to take the chance and/or spend money on lawyers. Just because the LEO does not know the law is not my problem.