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View Full Version : Update 3/22 - Quality Concern - Remington UMC 9mm Luger


boink
03-03-2010, 9:13 PM
*UPDATED 3/22/10 with results from Remington on Page 4, post #36*

I sent an email to Remington in regards to this. For simplicity sake, I'll include the majority of the email I sent along with the pictures I sent.

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To whom it may concern,

I'm inquiring about a quality issue on two boxes of Remington UMC Mega Pack 9mm Luger 115gr that I recently purchased. These are factory new, purchased from Bass Pro Shops online. This is the first time I've purchased Remington ammunition since I've started shooting.

Three of the trays have what I would call "sunken" bullets, or bullets that are pushed too far into the case. I'm attached several pictures to this email. In the most extreme case, the ammo is sunken progressively lower from row to row lengthwise. In the other two cases, it's only half the row that is pushed in. I'm not positive these rounds are safe to shoot, but I'm nervous to try any of the rounds in either box after seeing these. There is absolutely no damage to the boxes or trays.

- Picture 1 displays the front row of the most extreme tray. Each round is followed by an entire length of the tray pressed equally deep. This tray is from box 1.
- Picture 2 displays the most 'normal' round to the most 'sunken' round side by side from the above picture.
- Picture 3 displays a round of MFS 9mm 115gr ammunition, the most 'normal' round, and the most 'sunken' round. This is to gauge size in case the 'normal' rounds are pressed as well. The MFS rounds cycled flawlessly through my Sig P226 Navy.
- Picture 4 displays the worst row of 'sunken' rounds down the length of the tray.
- Picture 5 displays the two other instances of pressed rounds in the trays. Both of these trays came out of box 2.

I'm leery to test any of these rounds, including the ones I'd consider 'normal'. Please advise on this issue and what may be done to replace the possibly defective rounds.

...
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These are the photos I attached with the email.

Photo 1:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2773/4405060833_8097e10e22_o.jpg

Photo 2:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4405825956_237412eb8b_o.jpg

Photo 3:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2686/4405826022_5245eea7c0_o.jpg

Photo 4:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4001/4405825814_ed852a1c7b_o.jpg

Photo 5:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4067/4405060669_394dc6089e_o.jpg

Glock-matic
03-03-2010, 9:19 PM
I wouldn't shoot them, send it back to Bass Pro Shops for a refund, the brass jacketed round doesn't belong, the sunken round is dangerous to try to shoot. My guess is someone dropped some ammo boxes, had them spill open, and put them back together best they could.

nn3453
03-03-2010, 9:22 PM
The term you are looking for is "setback," not "sunken."

It could be that someone at the store cycled it through a gun too many times or it was stored improperly. Remington might replace/refund your money, but I wouldn't count on it.

You definitely don't want to shoot the ones with significant setback.

troysland
03-03-2010, 9:28 PM
I bought 6 of these boxes, 1500 rounds. One out of 1500 had a sunken bullet. I shrugged it off as one that got through the cracks of quality control.

big al
03-03-2010, 9:40 PM
mmmm...i have to check my megapacks for setbacks which i've never done before in any of my ammo purchases. hope all is well.

Joe
03-03-2010, 9:43 PM
I had 100/500 with pretty severe setback

Joe
03-03-2010, 9:44 PM
Many of us have experienced this

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=231676&highlight=setback

Malmon
03-03-2010, 10:14 PM
I bought the same ammo from basspro, and these ammos with setbacks seems to fire just fine in a glock 19c.

kurac
03-03-2010, 11:12 PM
Maybe bass pro shop got them in an air drop, or maybe Remington UMC just doesn't have any QC

kf6tac
03-04-2010, 1:36 AM
I had a couple (maybe 5 in all?) setbacks out of my last two 9mm Mega packs. all of them appeared to be on the top tray near one corner, and that corner on the cardboard carton looked like it'd been crushed a bit. Seems like there may have been some poor handling involved at some point.

boink
03-04-2010, 8:50 AM
I was just called by a customer service rep from Remington. She apologized and explained that it was probably caused by one of their packaging machines.

She requested the manufacturing codes from inside, and are already shipping me box with return label to ship it back to them. So it seems they're going to take care of the issue.

Oldnoob
03-04-2010, 8:58 AM
Now I'll need to go through my 3 box of mega pack.

Call_me_Tom
03-04-2010, 9:12 AM
Wow, glad they are taking care of that. I've never had that issue with the mega packs that I've bought in the past. I guess I better check what I have stored away.

speeedracerr
03-08-2010, 2:30 AM
Had the same problem here... I purchased 4 mega packs at Walmart yesterday and had 5 bullet setbacks in two different packs. :eek:

Anyone else try shooting these cartridges with the setbacks? Just wondering if its safe enough to shoot in lieu of sending it back to Remington for replacement.

RogueSniper
03-08-2010, 2:51 AM
Bullets with setback are NOT safe to shoot. If the bullets are seated too deep, the expanding gas from the ignited powder would generate extremely high pressure and possibly causing a ruptured case at the very least or even an exploded gun at the very worse.

I recommend that you contact Remington, like the OP, or use a bullet puller and use the setback bullets as reloading components - don't reuse the powder, you don't know what it is or the actual gram weight.

Whenever I buy ammo, in store or online, I check every round. It's like checking the eggs I buy at the store to see if any are cracked/defective. I found a box of Federal JHP with the primer missing and no powder and another time I found a box of Speer with the primer seated wrong side out.

Group B
03-08-2010, 3:23 AM
WTH how did they manage to manufacture a round with a brass jacketed bullet???

dcbiii
03-08-2010, 4:29 AM
the brass jacketed round doesn't belong
WTH how did they manage to manufacture a round with a brass jacketed bullet???

When in doubt, it helps to read the original post.




- Picture 3 displays a round of MFS 9mm 115gr ammunition, the most 'normal' round, and the most 'sunken' round. This is to gauge size in case the 'normal' rounds are pressed as well. The MFS rounds cycled flawlessly through my Sig P226 Navy.
Photo 3:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2686/4405826022_5245eea7c0_o.jpg

Moto4Fun
03-08-2010, 10:09 AM
It sounds like this is an issue that occurs due to the packaging process and/or mishandling while packaged. But this brings up a good point about bulk (non-packaged) ammo; it is far more difficult to do a quick inspection for set back. In the trays, the difference is obvious, but if you have a bag/box of 1000 rounds of ammo, it would be quite time consuming to do your own quality inspection.

Sinixstar
03-08-2010, 12:43 PM
Ammo with an out-of-spec bullet seating is sketchy. That's why case length and overall length are so important when you're reloading.

round setback = decreased case capacity = increased pressure.

I think you know where i'm going with this.

Joe
03-08-2010, 1:10 PM
When I sent my ammo back to remington, they sent me a letter that said even though the ammo had setback, all was within spec and was still safe to shoot.

Echidin
03-08-2010, 2:11 PM
I wouldn't shoot them, send it back to Bass Pro Shops for a refund, the brass jacketed round doesn't belong, the sunken round is dangerous to try to shoot. My guess is someone dropped some ammo boxes, had them spill open, and put them back together best they could.


The only thing Bass Pro will do is tell you "sorry no refunds/exchanges on ammunition, period." Believe me I've tried it to no avail.

boink
03-08-2010, 3:53 PM
When I sent my ammo back to remington, they sent me a letter that said even though the ammo had setback, all was within spec and was still safe to shoot.

Let's hope that's not the case, I shipped it back to them today. I'll certainly let you know the outcome.

cineski
03-08-2010, 3:56 PM
Remington UMC is the only bullet I've ever shot where one round literally had no powder in it. It was a .223 in my father in law's AR. He still has the round and is the sole reason I'll never buy Remington UMC.

Joe
03-08-2010, 11:07 PM
The only thing Bass Pro will do is tell you "sorry no refunds/exchanges on ammunition, period." Believe me I've tried it to no avail.

This is not whats happened to all the others I've heard of in the other threads about setback. So far I've read that bass pro shops has exchanged the boxes for fresh ammo in every case

ireload
03-09-2010, 7:04 AM
WTH how did they manage to manufacture a round with a brass jacketed bullet???


Remington produces a bullet with brass jacket for the Golden Bullet line for .22lR and Golden Saber line.

cineski
03-09-2010, 8:06 AM
Brass is the new up and comer. Cheaper to make than copper jacketed.

team1320
03-09-2010, 8:16 AM
i ordered 2 of these packs.. 500 rnds and also have this problem.. about 5rounds are setback.. i better further inspect with more attention.. i bet i can find more..

echang86
03-09-2010, 9:23 AM
I have the same problem. Consistently 15/250 are set back. I don't think it's a Bass Pro thing, as I got the ammo from WalMart in Duarte/Monrovia.

kazman
03-09-2010, 9:54 AM
Has anyone had this problem on their 45 acp megapaks? I have a couple of those somewhere.

Echidin
03-09-2010, 10:52 AM
This is not whats happened to all the others I've heard of in the other threads about setback. So far I've read that bass pro shops has exchanged the boxes for fresh ammo in every case


Just got off the phone with Bass Pro Shop customer service and understand why they would not refund or exchange the box of ammunition purchased from them. You're only given 30 minutes from the time of purchase to exchange or get a refund for ammunition, otherwise they can't resell it and you're out of luck, which I was since it had been almost 24 hours since my purchase. Would have been much easier if they wouldn't have neglected to explain that minor detail to me in the first place.

Nor-Cal
03-09-2010, 11:08 AM
I had the same problem I contacted remington and the let me know who to speak to. I spoke with the correct person they sent me a prepaid labe for shipment as they were askin for the ammo with sever set back to be sent to them I ship them back and about in a week I had a check in the mail to replace the faulty product as it had slipped thru QC.

MRpink
03-09-2010, 12:29 PM
I had about 5 rounds total with setback like that in my 2 9mm megapack. Cause of it seems to be from rough handling and shipping. I think because the way they're stacked, it's bound to happen when the folks toss the packaging around.

Cagey48
03-09-2010, 12:44 PM
I have the same problem. Consistently 15/250 are set back. I don't think it's a Bass Pro thing, as I got the ammo from WalMart in Duarte/Monrovia.

You must be on the cashiers "special" call list when the truck pulls in. I have NEVER seen any UMC Mega packs let alone 50 packs of 9mm UMC at the Monrovia Wally World. Last time i was there (3/6) there was not 1 box of anything in stock. Tell me your secret :)

slik556
03-09-2010, 4:28 PM
I just checked my 3 UMC mega packs of 9mm and they all seem to be ok but when you stand the pack up on end to unload the box the bottom trays are all busted up and the rounds are not in any kind of order like the 4 upper trays.. As said before it may be the way they are handled and shipped, a little rough..

HPGunner
03-09-2010, 9:17 PM
Has anyone had this problem on their 45 acp megapaks? I have a couple of those somewhere.

Good question - I bought 600 rounds bulk from Cabela's of Remington UMC 45acp and I have them stacked up in a dry box - I never bothered to check them out. Although the six 100 round packs I have are in a green box like the pic below, unlike the big Yellow UMC mega pack boxes I've seen at the bass pro shot site.

I would think it would have to be some major mishandling in order to push the bullet into the casing that much. How much pressure does it take to do this?

http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_216806_imageset_01?$main-Medium$

boink
03-22-2010, 4:17 PM
Update on the RMA.

Today I received a box from Remington.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for returning the 500 unfired rounds of Remington L9MM3A ammunition with the telescoped bullets. The bullets may have telescoped into the shell due to a jam on the loading machine.

We do work hard to provide quality products to all our customers. We appreciate you taking the time to let us know about these rounds.

I have enclosed two fresh boxes (500 rounds) of Remington L9MM3A ammunition to replace the rounds you returned. We appreciate you choosing Remington products and hope you continue in the future.

Sincerely,

Bill [last name]
Product Service

I opened up the two new boxes (definitely not the old ones, the box even changed a bit) and everything looks to be in perfect order. Remington has done a good job taking care of my issue, and I'll say they've now made me a more loyal customer.

NapaCountyShooter
03-22-2010, 4:48 PM
It's nice every once in a while when a big corporation actually follows fair business practices.

B Strong
03-22-2010, 5:21 PM
Damaged in Transit.

Joe
03-22-2010, 10:44 PM
Update on the RMA.

Today I received a box from Remington.



I opened up the two new boxes (definitely not the old ones, the box even changed a bit) and everything looks to be in perfect order. Remington has done a good job taking care of my issue, and I'll say they've now made me a more loyal customer.

they told me the same thing but gave me a check instead.

boink
03-23-2010, 10:13 PM
they told me the same thing but gave me a check instead.

The lady that called me originally said that if they found an issue, they would send me new boxes or a check if they did not have any ammo on hand.

I find it interesting that an ammunition manufacturer would not have any on hand :confused:

tbhracing
03-23-2010, 10:51 PM
OP- Thanks for the heads up.

Now I have to inspect 1250 rounds, great. :banghead:

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk261/tbhracing/DSC00036.jpg

MarioS
03-24-2010, 10:39 AM
Hmm, I just picked up a box yesterday in 9mm...I'll give it a look, although my preliminary check of the first two top trays didn't reveal any defects. I wonder if it happened in transport if something heavy enough were to drop onto the box? The cartridges are all supporting the tray on top of it.

boink
03-24-2010, 12:49 PM
Hmm, I just picked up a box yesterday in 9mm...I'll give it a look, although my preliminary check of the first two top trays didn't reveal any defects. I wonder if it happened in transport if something heavy enough were to drop onto the box? The cartridges are all supporting the tray on top of it.

The boxes were all /perfect/, not even a bend or fold. Does not look like shipping damage to me. As what the Remington reps said, I'd agree it was problem an issue with their loading machines.

boink
03-24-2010, 12:51 PM
OP- Thanks for the heads up.

Now I have to inspect 1250 rounds, great. :banghead:

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk261/tbhracing/DSC00036.jpg

Make sure to look at each tray individually! :D

tbhracing
03-24-2010, 2:35 PM
Make sure to look at each tray individually! :D

Way too much work. I will just wait untill shooting time and hope I remember to inspect.

Oldnoob
03-24-2010, 2:46 PM
Good to know Remington do you right. I'll be checking my 1k rounds of 9mm before I head out to range.

MarioS
03-24-2010, 7:34 PM
The boxes were all /perfect/, not even a bend or fold. Does not look like shipping damage to me. As what the Remington reps said, I'd agree it was problem an issue with their loading machines.

Got it. Pretty bad issue with their machine then, I hope nobody fired off any of the defective rounds...that could end badly and I'm sure there are a lot of shooters out there who wouldn't even have noticed. I'm glad you noticed, and that they took care of you.

I took a look at my box today before I headed to the range. I guess my box was unaffected. There was a .027" range between the longest and shortest overall length though.

DaveFJ80
03-24-2010, 9:57 PM
Well, since SurplusAmmo screwed me over royally (paid for express shipping on Monday morning for ammo they assured me was in stock and would ship out that afternoon so I would get the package this week to use on Saturday, but instead shipped it out Wed night so now I won't receive it now until Monday), I now need to pick up some ammo elsewhere for a Saturday morning shoot at a private ranch.

Since I can't make it out to AmmoBros before they close any night this week, I'm probably going to go to Big 5 and pick up the Remy UMC 250-pack of 9mm (since they're advertising them for $75/case this week) and hope there aren't too many setbacks in the boxes. I just hope out of the 1000 rounds I need to get, most of them are good to use. I'll report my findings when I pick some up tomorrow evening.

MarioS
03-24-2010, 10:47 PM
Dave, all of mine were fine, from Big 5. Hopefully yours will be too.

Don't forget to use that 10% coupon, over in the Good Deals section of this board if you haven't seen it yet. Takes care of the tax on one box or you can go to two separate Big 5's and use it twice.

DaveFJ80
03-24-2010, 11:54 PM
Don't forget to use that 10% coupon, over in the Good Deals section of this board if you haven't seen it yet. Takes care of the tax on one box or you can go to two separate Big 5's and use it twice.


Thanks, I already had a PDF of it saved so I printed a few of them out. Fortunately there are 3 different Big 5 stores all within 10 minutes of driving from where I live, and a few more on my way to work, so I can use the coupon towards a box at each place.

I guess on the brighter side of things with my SurplusAmmo shipment coming in next week, having 'too much ammo' to stock up on is never a bad thing :).

DaveFJ80
03-25-2010, 8:03 PM
ok, I picked up 4 cases today from 3 different Big 5 stores in the LA / SGV area (and I called at least 12 of them within 30 miles of me... most of them were sold out). Three of the stores only had 1 case, one store had 2 cases. I was able to use the Big 5 coupon at each place, and even used it twice as 2 separate transactions at one store when I bought the 2 cases. Total was $74.07 after LA County tax.

I checked all 1000 rounds by just opening the boxes up, pulling out each tray and looking at the ammo to see if anyone of them appeared shorter than the rest of them (like what you can see in the first post of this thread). From what I saw, there was only 1 bullet that had a very minor setback issue, but it was barely a couple of millimeters, if even that. Nothing like what was pictured on the 1st page, but I still noticed it being slightly shorter than the rest of them. So I guess out of 1000 bullets, 999 of them are approved by visual inspection.

If I have time during my lunch break tomorrow, I'll go to the LAGC range down the street from me and try out 100 rounds. Otherwise, all 1000 will be used up on Saturday :). I'll report back then and let you know how many (if any) are FTF's, or any other issues that I encounter.

Then I have another 1000 rounds of WWB showing up on Monday so I'll have some fun next week and compare those to the UMC ammo.

PewPewBob
03-26-2010, 4:55 PM
I have bought 2 boxes of these from Walmart and have not seen one like this.

Saym14
03-27-2010, 12:12 AM
I bought 5 boxes of the 250 UMC. no shorties but my complaint is there is a lot of brass metal shaving in this ammo. it can tend to foul your gun.

DaveFJ80
03-27-2010, 6:58 PM
RANGE REPORT

Out of the 1000 rounds of 9mm UMC I picked up, we shot 875 rounds total today. 450 rounds through my Glock 19, the rest through a Beretta 92F).

There were 0 (zero) FTF's and every single bullet I fed through my Glock or the Beretta fired just fine. Not a single stovepipe issue either, no problems at all. After detail stripping my G19, it's actually not too dirty and there are no shavings or anything like that. Just a quick clean and it's good to go for the next round.

IMO, the UMC ammo worked great and I'll use the rest of it up at the range next week. A little pricey at $74 per 250 pack (with 10% discount), since I have WWB's coming in on Monday that were cheaper, but I'm completely satisfied with my results today using the Remington UMC 9mm Luger ammo.

boink
03-27-2010, 7:38 PM
Great to hear, Dave. I still haven't had a chance to hit the range with this ammo yet, but it's good to know that yours ran flawless.

On a related note though, I got these for $54 a box from Bass Pro online :D that's a price I can handle.

AlliedArmory
03-27-2010, 7:44 PM
I just picked up 1K of these from Walmart yesterday @ $52 per box. all seem to be fine. I got about 2K from Bass Pro a while back and maybe 5-8 rds were"pushed in". It wasn't that many to cause much concern for me.

All have fired fine.

tbhracing
03-27-2010, 7:53 PM
since I have WWB's coming in on Monday that were cheaper...

Thanks for the range report and glad it worked out. Side note- Both of my Glocks have only failed with WWB. I will never buy that brand again if I dont have to.

DaveFJ80
03-27-2010, 8:19 PM
Side note- Both of my Glocks have only failed with WWB. I will never buy that brand again if I dont have to.

Interesting because I've read mixed reviews on WWB on Glocks. Either FTF's or flawless on Glocks, so I'll see what happens with my G19.


I wish I got the UMC for $54/box, but I was in a pinch and needed ammo for today since SurplusAmmo didn't deliver my WWB's by Friday, so I just went out and found the UMC's at Big 5 (the Walmarts I called and checked didn't have any in stock). If I can find more of them for $54/case, I'll definitely pick up more.

tbhracing
03-27-2010, 8:42 PM
Well, I wouldnt be a friend if I didnt tell ya. Just FYI brother. :)

dlearyfun
03-29-2010, 9:05 PM
Hi guys,
I am brand new member as I found this site thru Google. Here is my story. I just received 600 rounds of this ammo from Cabelas today. I got the green box type like poster #35, HPGunner stated in his post. When I opened one of the boxes and took a look, I immediately said to myself that this ammo looks somewhat small for 9mm. I checked the box and it said 115 grain but it seemed too small. Right away I went into my closet to get a box of American Eagle 9mm Luger from my existing stash. Upon comparing the two, it was apparent that the UMC was smaller in length by maybe a 32nd of an inch. I however did not have the problem that Boink, the original poster had. When I emptied all 6 boxes (600 rounds) and lined them up, they were all the same. That is to say that they were all shorter than my existing 9mm stash? I doubt that I will have problem shooting them thru my Springfield XD M but I find it strange that this happens. Tomorrow I will load a magazine and go behind the house and empty it. If I survive that, I will post results in a few days.
Please excuse my accent. I am from Maine.