CCW's and Gun Shows?????

[metalhead357]

Had a question for y'all.

Aint seen a specific mention of it in the CCW relevant codes.

Does someone with a CCW "have to" comply with the signs on Gun Show doors about "No loaded Firearms" past this point?

I KNOW they certainly mean the average chap with his wears to sell is expected to unlock & unload, but IS a Gun Show event a Space/place that a CCW'er must comply with or is exempt from??????????????????

I've asked several peeps in person about this and they all tend to say the "Dont ask, dont tell" type stuff. But are these Gun Show rules just part of the Event's Rules, county ordinace, or State law?????

I "Thought" (yea, I know....dangerous thing:rolleyes: ) that a CCW was 'essentially' good anywhere save The specifically mentioned ones of Airports, Court Houses and Bars...................


Metalhead

[m1371]

Had a question for y'all.

Aint seen a specific mention of it in the CCW relevant codes.

Does someone with a CCW "have to" comply with the signs on Gun Show doors about "No loaded Firearms" past this point?

I KNOW they certainly mean the average chap with his wears to sell is expected to unlock & unload, but IS a Gun Show event a Space/place that a CCW'er must comply with or is exempt from??????????????????

I've asked several peeps in person about this and they all tend to say the "Dont ask, dont tell" type stuff. But are these Gun Show rules just part of the Event's Rules, county ordinace, or State law?????

I "Thought" (yea, I know....dangerous thing:rolleyes: ) that a CCW was 'essentially' good anywhere save The specifically mentioned ones of Airports, Court Houses and Bars...................


Metalhead


My understanding is that even if you've got a CCW, it's a no-no to carry at a gun show. I believe it is one of the places with "extra" restrictions which are separate from the usual concealed/loaded gun laws.

Check PC12071.4 for details. I didn't see any exemptions for CCW permit holders listed there. It reads like the only persons with authority to carry a loaded firearm at a gunshow are either sworn LEO's or security personnel actually working the gunshow.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=51763926046+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve
12071.4(g) No person at a gun show or event, other than security
personnel or sworn peace officers, shall possess at the same time
both a firearm and ammunition that is designed to be fired in the
firearm. Vendors having those items at the show for sale or
exhibition are exempt from this prohibition.

12071.4(i) Persons other than show or event security personnel, sworn
peace officers, or vendors, who bring firearms onto the gun show or
event premises shall sign in ink the tag or sticker that is attached
to the firearm prior to being allowed admittance to the show or
event, as provided for in subdivision (j).

12071.4(j) All firearms carried onto the premises of a gun show or event
by members of the public shall be checked, cleared of any ammunition,
secured in a manner that prevents them from being operated, and an
identification tag or sticker shall be attached to the firearm, prior
to the person being allowed admittance to the show.

[metalhead357]

Thanks for the input....

I was looking at

12071.1.
(o) The producer shall require that signs be posted in a readily
visible location at each public entrance to the show containing, but
not limited to, the following notices:
(1) This gun show follows all federal, state, and local firearms
and weapons laws without exception.
(2) All firearms carried onto the premises by members of the
public will be checked, cleared of any ammunition, secured in a
manner that prevents them from being operated, and an identification
tag or sticker will be attached to the firearm prior to the person
being allowed admittance to the show.

(5) Persons possessing firearms on this facility must have in
their immediate possession government-issued photo identification,
and display it upon request to any security officer or any peace
officer, as defined in Section 830.

As you can see..................hence my confusion. Your section says/implies LEO/Security ONLY...Whiel the earlier section states PERSONS and the quib about ALL STATE laws (etc etc) being followed. I have never seen the exact penal code listed on those Gun Show signs..... hard to know if THAT specific section has a listed exemption when I aint seen it posted.

I thank you for yor input. Further comments FULLY welcomed:D

Metalhead

[m1371]

Thanks for the input....

I was looking at

12071.1.
(o) The producer shall require that signs be posted in a readily
visible location at each public entrance to the show containing, but
not limited to, the following notices:
(1) This gun show follows all federal, state, and local firearms
and weapons laws without exception.
(2) All firearms carried onto the premises by members of the
public will be checked, cleared of any ammunition, secured in a
manner that prevents them from being operated, and an identification
tag or sticker will be attached to the firearm prior to the person
being allowed admittance to the show.

(5) Persons possessing firearms on this facility must have in
their immediate possession government-issued photo identification,
and display it upon request to any security officer or any peace
officer, as defined in Section 830.

As you can see..................hence my confusion. Your section says/implies LEO/Security ONLY...Whiel the earlier section states PERSONS and the quib about ALL STATE laws (etc etc) being followed. I have never seen the exact penal code listed on those Gun Show signs..... hard to know if THAT specific section has a listed exemption when I aint seen it posted.

I thank you for yor input. Further comments FULLY welcomed:D

Metalhead


PC12071.4 says "This section shall be known, and may be cited as, the Gun Show Enforcement and Security Act of 2000." So I'd say that covers it.

Also, there was an Info Bulletin released by DOJ that I found, which was regarding "Gun Show Safety and Security Responsibilities". PC12071.1 and 12071.4 were both cited as being relevant to gunshows.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0402.pdf

Interestingly enough, the bulletin mentioned an accidental discharge that happened at a gun show. Might have been the same one Ted was mentioning?

I think the problem is that you have to view the penal code regarding this as sort of a jigsaw puzzle, not in a linear fashion.

PC12071.1 appears to set the adminstrative requirements for the producer/operator of a gunshow. It tells them "how" they have to do business, not "what" to do. IE- It outlines how to take care of the licensing requirements, site planning, what the posted signs must say, etc etc.

This is where PC12071.4 kicks in. It seems to be the section of the penal code that gives you the "what" part. In other words, no you can't do this, yes you can do that, etc.

It states that "All firearms carried onto the premises of a gun show or event by members of the public shall be checked, cleared of any ammunition, secured in a manner that prevents them from being operated, and an identification tag or sticker shall be attached to the firearm, prior to the person being allowed admittance to the show."

Then another section states: "No person at a gun show or event, other than security personnel or sworn peace officers, shall possess at the same time both a firearm and ammunition that is designed to be fired in the firearm. Vendors having those items at the show for sale or exhibition are exempt from this prohibition."

You have to realize that technically, the term "general public" doesn't apply to vendors, LEO's and security personnel who are working the gunshow.

Now we have established that only these three categories of people (LEO, security & vendors) are allowed to have firearms and matching ammo at the show. Nowhere does it say that LEO's and security personnel have to render their firearms inoperable, since they do not fall into the "general public" category.

Vendors are restricted by the following: "Will verify that all firearms in their possession at the show or event will be unloaded, and that the firearms will be secured in a manner that prevents them from being operated except for brief periods when the mechanical condition of a firearm is being demonstrated to a prospective buyer." So that prevents a vendor from having a functioning firearm. Additionally, they must keep ALL their ammunition secured: "Except for purposes of showing ammunition to a prospective buyer, ammunition at a gun show or event may be displayed only in closed original factory boxes or other closed containers."

With that, we've taken vendors off the list of people who are not restricted in carrying a functioning firearm at the gunshow. Now the only people who are not restricted by PC12071.4 from possessing an operable firearm at the gunshow are LEO and security personnel.

A CCW permit holder would fall in the "general public" category and since there are certain allowable restrictions to the state concealed carry laws, PC12071.4 would prevent a CCW permit holder from carrying concealed at a gunshow. Additionally, there is no specific provision in PC12071.4 that allows concealed carry.

Hopefully that all made sense in a convoluted sort of way.

[Justang]

I've never felt the need to carry at a gun show.

[Turbinator]

I've never felt the need to carry at a gun show.

Then you've never heard the horror stories of people, DEALERS, negligently shooting rounds off at gun shows, eh?

Granted - this doesn't mean that you'd shoot back - but you imply, I trust, that a gun show is safe. In all that I've read so far, as evidenced by Technical Ted's story below, a gun show can be far from safe if you're among the wrong crowd.

Turby

[Justang]

Then you've never heard the horror stories of people, DEALERS, negligently shooting rounds off at gun shows, eh?

Granted - this doesn't mean that you'd shoot back - but you imply, I trust, that a gun show is safe. In all that I've read so far, as evidenced by Technical Ted's story below, a gun show can be far from safe if you're among the wrong crowd.

Turby

I just figure no criminal is so stupid to commit a violent crime at a gun show. Just my opinion, its an unfounded trust.

[metalhead357]

You have to realize that technically, the term "general public" doesn't apply to vendors, LEO's and security personnel who are working the gunshow.

Now we have established that only these three categories of people (LEO, security & vendors) are allowed to have firearms and matching ammo at the show. Nowhere does it say that LEO's and security personnel have to render their firearms inoperable, since they do not fall into the "general public" category.

With that, we've taken vendors off the list of people who are not restricted in carrying a functioning firearm at the gunshow. Now the only people who are not restricted by PC12071.4 from possessing an operable firearm at the gunshow are LEO and security personnel.

A CCW permit holder would fall in the "general public" category and since there are certain allowable restrictions to the state concealed carry laws, PC12071.4 would prevent a CCW permit holder from carrying concealed at a gunshow. Additionally, there is no specific provision in PC12071.4 that allows concealed carry.

Hopefully that all made sense in a convoluted sort of way.

Yes, thank you. It DOES make sense. Maybe I'm just bent over being "RE-included" in the "general population" when CCW's HAVE gone through additional training and are "mostly" exempt from allllllllllllllllll the places someone of the general public Could/would be cited for carrying concealed.

See my point(s)? A CCW'er is exempt from the "shall not carry concealed" in Dang near every OTHER provision of the law save Airports and court houses.............. I guess I'm just bent over it not applying to a gun show.

As some have said- there ARE certainly some shows that it would seem prudent to carry. Sometimes I've wondered if I shouldnt be waering BODY ARMOR lol!

But its really often times NOT so much INSIDE the Gun show event as it is the coming and going to the PARKING LOT that I tend to see the real creepy peeps.

I thank you for the assessment. I will continue to declare & have 'er checked...........

Metalhead

[Rumpled]

I was about three tables away when it happened at Costa Mesa about a year ago.
Lookee lou trying to figure out how to load a FAB10 sent a round into the ground. Dealer got a mostly superficial wound in calf.

[Justang]

I was about three tables away when it happened at Costa Mesa about a year ago.
Lookee lou trying to figure out how to load a FAB10 sent a round into the ground. Dealer got a mostly superficial wound in calf.

wow. I didn't know gun shows were like that... filled with tards.

[jyl]

What's the connection between the potential of a ND at a gunshow and the desire to carry at that gunshow? Are you going to shoot the vendor/customer who had the ND?

[socalguns]

Its not a good idea to eat the brown snow (shoot the one who had the ND)

[booknut]

last year or the year before, I made a trip to Texas.

I happened to find out about a gunshow in the Dallas/Ft.Worth area and made it not too long before the thing closed.

Since I have several CCW permits from various states, I'm covered for carry in Texas.

BUT,

I unloaded my pistol before leaving my truck.
It was daytime, I was parked across the street and there were plenty of PD there.

They had an officer at a table when you entered who cleared your weapon and slipped a plastic tie through the action.
I had my S&W 642 with laser grips and he struck up a conversation about the CTC grips.
Since no one was in line behind me, we talked about things for a couple of minutes then I was on my way in... into HEAVEN... that is!

Been a LOOOOONG TIME since I was at a gunshow in a FREE STATE!

Only thing I walked out with was a receipt for a set of custom-molded earplugs.
Got them in the mail a few weeks later.

It's sad... while I was walking around looking at all the 'goodies', I kept feeling like I didn't belong in there... being from California and all:mad: