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View Full Version : Why Not Ship?


oso grande
03-01-2010, 9:58 PM
I've noticed that many sellers insist on a ftf transaction. Seems most Norcal guns stay up north and Socal guns stay in the south.
Why is that? Is it just too much trouble to ship a handgun to a FFL or is there another reason?
I'd like to hear your opinions.

Oso Grande

BamBam-31
03-01-2010, 10:07 PM
Reasons why shipping can be a PITA:

--Handgun could be off-list, making it pretty much FTF only.
--It's expensive to to ship. Overnight via FedEx or UPS is over $50, last time I checked.
--It's more expensive to do than a FTF transfer (I've heard anywhere from $45-$100 for a transfer fee on top of DROS). That usually scares off buyers.
--Some FFL's wont accept from an individual, forcing the seller to find a local FFL thru which to ship. Added hassle and expense.
--Buyer can't inspect firearm in person, may disagree w/ online description and pictures. A FTF allows the buyer to inspect the weapon in person, so he/she wont come back a week later and say "Hey, what's this scratch on the slide?!?" and demand a refund or price adjustment.

Oldnoob
03-01-2010, 10:22 PM
It's not hard to ship, but hard to receive. Most FFL will charge an arm and a leg for shipping PPT. And we have to ship to a FFL by federal law.

aplinker
03-01-2010, 10:30 PM
You can't get paid in cash for a shipped transaction.

Too many unknown quantities.

CHS
03-02-2010, 7:36 AM
It's not hard to ship, but hard to receive. Most FFL will charge an arm and a leg for shipping PPT. And we have to ship to a FFL by federal law.


It's not hard to ship OR receive. I don't know where you get this stuff.

Yes, you have to ship to an FFL by federal law, but you don't have to ship using an FFL, which you are implying.

FYI, lawfully you can ship using UPS or FedEX ground, but they won't insure a claim if something happens and they find out it was a handgun that wasn't shipped overnight. This will reduce the cost of shipping.

Shipping a gun really isn't a big deal. I think some people are just lazy. The only real wrinkle in the issue is the roster since as soon as you ship a gun, the roster must apply and the transaction is no longer exempt. I've done PPT's for guys that have actually flown down from NorCal to SoCal to get a particularly rare off-roster gun.

cineski
03-02-2010, 7:58 AM
Some receiving FFL's will only receive a gun shipped from an FFL. On top of that, what someone says is a mint condition gun may likely end up not being mint.

littlejake
03-02-2010, 8:00 AM
I see a couple of things I take exception to in this thread.

You cannot get paid in cash if you ship? -- well, you can get a USPS money order in advance and that's as good as cash.

And, you must ship to an FFL by federal law? I think that is only true if you cross state lines. The OP's question is limited in scope to within CA.

It's California that makes us use a CA dealer for transfers of handguns.

The main answer to the OP's question involves non-roster, non-C&R handguns -- they can only be PPT'ed at a dealer -- they cannot be shipped from seller to a transfer dealer or from dealer to dealer mainly because in a PPT, the dealer needs the seller to appear in person for the DROS process.

Am I wrong?

evidens83
03-02-2010, 8:01 AM
I like to inspect the firearm prior to purchase.

zinfull
03-02-2010, 8:38 AM
Except for non roster handguns I do not know why the seller would not ship. It would be up to the buyer to pay all expenses except return postage for miss described items. My FFL only charges me the $35 for transfers of any kind and knows the law so will except from private parties.

jerry

littlejake
03-02-2010, 9:03 AM
Except for non roster handguns I do not know why the seller would not ship. It would be up to the buyer to pay all expenses except return postage for miss described items. My FFL only charges me the $35 for transfers of any kind and knows the law so will except from private parties.

jerry

Agreed.

The big dealers (you know who I mean) charge $155 to handle an FFL transfer including DROS fees. It's because they want to sell you something from their stock; and there is no restriction on what they can charge as there is on a PPT.

I assume you mean your dealer will accept shipments from a private party. I know of no law that prevents them from receiving from a common citizen as long as the shipping party provides their CA ID information. It's business policy that puts that limitation in place.

Sounds like you have a good FFL -- they deserve your business.

Oldnoob
03-02-2010, 9:20 AM
It's not hard to ship OR receive. I don't know where you get this stuff.

Yes, you have to ship to an FFL by federal law, but you don't have to ship using an FFL, which you are implying.

FYI, lawfully you can ship using UPS or FedEX ground, but they won't insure a claim if something happens and they find out it was a handgun that wasn't shipped overnight. This will reduce the cost of shipping.

Shipping a gun really isn't a big deal. I think some people are just lazy. The only real wrinkle in the issue is the roster since as soon as you ship a gun, the roster must apply and the transaction is no longer exempt. I've done PPT's for guys that have actually flown down from NorCal to SoCal to get a particularly rare off-roster gun.

There is no need to be a jerk. Please read my post again, for I think you misunderstand my post.

I did not imply one need to ship firearm from a FFL. What I mean was a FFL dealer can charge for receiving from a "shipping-private-party-transfer". And just like out of state transfer, it's not limit with our "$25 DROS + $10 dealer fee" cap. Many FFL dealers will charge high transfer fee because they did not profit from the gun sale. And that transfer fee plus shipping cost (which most time goes to buyer cost) will off set the deal.

Which is why many seller will indicate FTF PPT only. Because it's waste of time going through all the shipping + dealer fee price quote and only find out it will add $100 more to the sale.


PS:
You are correct though, there is no LAW for us to have to ship through over night. They are just FexEx and UPS' company policy. You can choose not to follow their policy.

hybridatsun350
03-02-2010, 9:22 AM
I just don't like the idea of it. I like being able to see who I'm selling to, and FTF transactions allow the buyer to thoroughly inspect a gun before buying. I would never want to spend the money shipping a firearm and then here from the person that it's not what they wanted for some reason. Also, for the same reasons, I will only buy through FTF transactions.

oso grande
03-02-2010, 9:29 AM
I like to inspect the firearm prior to purchase.

I'm asking about shipping...not receiving.
OG

tonelar
03-02-2010, 9:43 AM
Mebbe they won't ship 'cause they like the ftf aspect of selling.
Personally, I have reservations about selling to someone through the mail, cause I've been burnt before...

However if a Calgunner has a decent iTrader rating... I'd have ZERO issues with shipping.

Oldnoob
03-02-2010, 9:50 AM
I'm asking about shipping...not receiving.
OG

It's just a bit of trouble on both end.

As the seller, you need to ask the receiving FFL if they will receive from private party (there are FFL dealer will not take shipment from private party). If not, you need to find a FFL that will ship for you. And they need to exchange dealer licenses if they never deal before. Unless you wish to pay for the shipping, often time you, as the seller will have to get the price quote and let the buyer know he/she is paying for on top of gun price.

Buyer need to pay for shipping, extra for transfer fee, value of gun, and don't get to see the real gun ahead of time...etc. These all add up the reason why lesser people willing to do shipping-PPT. That's assuming everything when on smoothly.

Instead, do a local face to face PPT. See the gun in person, pay with cash, do the transfer and go on your way.

Hank Dodge
03-02-2010, 10:04 AM
I'm all for doing a real face-to-face when at all possible (with a FFL involved of course), but sometimes that is just not economical or practical. I just had a disagreement with a seller on here over a pistol that he has had for sale for quite some time. I offered to meet his asking price and have it transfered through my local dealer covering all the expenses. He agreed initially and then changed his mind only willing to do the transfer at his local dealer. Well, I'm in Norcal and he's in Socal....that creates a problem. It's just not a valid option for a person like me to drive eight hours each way to pay the man and fill out papers.....and then do it all again after a ten day wait. In a state this big, people that post statewide ads need to be willing to ship things. I've got a guy down south now interested in a shotgun I've posted here. If he wants it, I'll have to send it to his FFL. No big deal.

I'd rather deal locally, but if both parties are honest with each outher about condition of the product and cost of doing the deal, there should be no problems.


Hank

oso grande
03-02-2010, 10:08 AM
I'm all for doing a real face-to-face when at all possible (with a FFL involved of course), but sometimes that is just not economical or practical. I just had a disagreement with a seller on here over a pistol that he has had for sale for quite some time. I offered to meet his asking price and have it transfered through my local dealer covering all the expenses. He agreed initially and then changed his mind only willing to do the transfer at his local dealer. Well, I'm in Norcal and he's in Socal....that creates a problem. It's just not a valid option for a person like me to drive eight hours each way to pay the man and fill out papers.....and then do it all again after a ten day wait. In a state this big, people that post statewide ads need to be willing to ship things. I've got a guy down south now interested in a shotgun I've posted here. If he wants it, I'll have to send it to his FFL. No big deal.

I'd rather deal locally, but if both parties are honest with each outher about condition of the product and cost of doing the deal, there should be no problems.


Hank

Hank...+1!
You've hit the nail on the head.
OG

CHS
03-02-2010, 10:12 AM
I think, at the end of the day that people are just WEIRD.

A guy on here had a gun for sale that my girlfriend was interested in, so she agreed to his price without any haggling or anything, and was also willing to go to the sellers preferred FFL for the transfer. After everything was agreed upon, the guy said she now had to wait a month because he had already sold some guns recently and didn't want to raise any red flags with the DOJ. I mean, come on people.

People are WEIRD.

Hank Dodge
03-02-2010, 10:17 AM
.......The main answer to the OP's question involves non-roster, non-C&R handguns -- they can only be PPT'ed at a dealer -- they cannot be shipped from seller to a transfer dealer or from dealer to dealer mainly because in a PPT, the dealer needs the seller to appear in person for the DROS process.

Am I wrong?


I believe that you are incorrect about this. The dealer doing the transfer needs to verify that the seller does in fact own and have registered with the state an "off list" firearm. But, that arm can be sold to another person anywhere within the state. It just needs to be verified that it was brought in through the proper channels (individual moved here with it already in his possession, etc). I've heard of some dealers only doing things a certain way on their end, but I believe that has more to do with store policy than state law.

oso grande
03-02-2010, 10:35 AM
Well...the consensus seems to be, that, most of the disadvantages are for the buyer-seller has little to lose. Buyer pays more, but gets a gun he can't find around home.
If a seller is serious about selling their gun...they'll ship it.

OG

littlejake
03-02-2010, 11:53 AM
I believe that you are incorrect about this. The dealer doing the transfer needs to verify that the seller does in fact own and have registered with the state an "off list" firearm. But, that arm can be sold to another person anywhere within the state. It just needs to be verified that it was brought in through the proper channels (individual moved here with it already in his possession, etc). I've heard of some dealers only doing things a certain way on their end, but I believe that has more to do with store policy than state law.

You got the final point right in your last sentence. However, the dealer doesn't do any sort of check on the seller, DOJ/BOF does. That's why in a PPT, he needs for the seller to appear in person to identify him/her-self. A handgun could be in the state by a person who moved here before the requirement for new residents to fill out the registration form... so it may not be in the DOJ/BOF database at all. As long as it doesn't come up as stolen it's a non issue.

aplinker
03-02-2010, 12:27 PM
Yes, you're wrong. I know a couple people that have received forged USPS money orders (and they're not from the son of the deposed kind of Zimbabia).

I've done some shipped transactions with firearms (both buyer and seller - it's a lot more work for the buyer). I've done plenty of shipped non-firearms transactions with people.

For me, this is probably the main issue: if something goes wrong in a non-FTF transaction, the potential drama/time/cost is enough that it makes me less inclined to do them. Yes, you can also get screwed FTF, but you can also get a read on people in person, and walk away if you think there's potential for problems.

The bottom line is, if I can find a local buyer, why should I bother with something I'm less comfortable doing?





You cannot get paid in cash if you ship? -- well, you can get a USPS money order in advance and that's as good as cash.

Am I wrong?