Can you DROS a long arm that is in ythe 10-day waiting period?

[treelogger]

Imagine the following scenario. I order a long-arm from out of state, and it is delivered to my FFL. The moment it arrives at the FFL, I visit the FFL, and do the DROS paperwork. The FFL enters the DROS into the computer. Now the usual 10-day waiting period starts, and even though the gun is technically mine, I can't take deliver of it for 10 days.

Question is: Can I immediately sell that gun in a PPT to another party, using the same FFL, during the 10-day waiting period? This would imply that the FFL starts a second 10-day waiting period for the second sale, which is running concurrently to the first waiting period. The buyer and me could even show up at the FFL together.

An alternate strategy would be this: If the FFL has already received the package with the gun, can he DROS it directly to the buyer, even though the FFL received the gun destined for me? Does the fact that the out-of-state dealer sold these guns to me cause a problem?

It should be clear to all involved what's going on here: The long arm in question is an off-list receiver. My FFL (reasonably) refuses to start the DROS until he has the firearm in hand. I already have enough receivers right now (several orders I didn't count on came through), and I already know a buyer who will want this lower. And because of the risk of the DoJ adding these lowers to the AW list any moment now, I would like to start the PPT DROS as quickly as possible, so the chance of the buyer not getting the receiver is minimized.

A quick reading of the California gun laws didn't find anything that prevents me from selling a gun that is still in the 10-day waiting period, or prevents the FFL from DROSing it to a person it was not initially intended for. But I didn't check the CA regulations, nor the ATF regulations for FFLs.

I guess in the end, the decision whether to do this will rest with the FFL, but I wanted to get the legal situation figured out first.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I make people wait, but I never thought of it that way. Honestly, I don't think it is a good idea because if you get rejected, then the whole process is screwed up. However, with a lack of serial numbers, there is nothing the would technically prohibit you from getting creative like that with the DROS. If it were me I would require a non-refundable $50 for trying it just in case it all falls apart and I don't want to pay your DROS fees if something goes wrong. You are correct, it will depend on the FFL.

[ckd]

Thats what I did. I paid for 4 units from an out of state dealer who shipped them to my FFL. When I went to my FFL I drosed 2 and my friend did 2. My FFL had no problem doing it that why and the dealer I purchased them from said it was no problem even though I paid for them.

[tenpercentfirearms]

That isn't the question. Sure as long as the guy doing the paperwork is the guy picking up the gun, it does not matter who buys the gun, especially if the guy paying for them is DROSing them at the same time. Now maybe I need to make this clear as now what you say makes sense.

If both parties are right there in the shop, then you do not have to do a PPT, private party transfer. The dealer can DROS the guns to whoever you want, as long as they are the same people picking it up.

The question is can you start your ten days then turn around and start a PPT right after that. Well, unless the other guy is coming in a day or two later, there is no need because the dealer can just do two different DROSes. Now if you wanted to get the DROS started and at least have the guns in your name, you can do that. Before your ten days are up, you can start a PPT DROS on the guns you have not be given yet, as long as they are long guns.

How do I know? I talked to the DOJ about it this morning. She said yes you could do that as the law doesn't really say one way or another, but she didn't recommend it as what if the first guy get rejected. I made her like the idea even more when I said, "In that case the dealer would have to cancel both DROSes and the DOJ would get to keep the $50 for both and the two would have to start again." She suddenly didn't seem opposed to the idea at all.

So I think I understand the first question now. There is nothing that prohibits you from paying for 50 receivers and having all of your buddies come down and start their own DROS. The only thing that would make me wonder is if you weren't buying one too. If three guys come in and they say, lets put it all on your card and I will pay you later, as long as all three guys are doing DROS paperwork, I know it is not a straw purchase. If three guys come in, one guy pays, but doesn't want to do paperwork, I would tell them no.

[bwiese]

This sounds just like a voided-transaction issue.

I do believe sales transactions can be voided/stopped/terminated for buyer-chosen reasons? It would be stunning if this procedure did not exist. (I am sure people buy guns all the time w/deposit and then find out circumstances change and wanna back out even if they lose deposit and have to pay restocking fee.)

So Buyer A whose guns came in and whose DROS started could cancel. Guns go back into FFLs inventory (he's prob have to reflect this in his bound book?) Then Buyer B could start his new DROS - and I don't think Buyer A's 10 day period needs to be complete and could terminate early.

This would be a cancelled-sale, new buyer takeover - not a PPT, though.

[joe_sun]

This scenario happened at one of the FFLs I used. What he did was this.

He logged four receivers into his bound book as bought from X company to Joe Blow. Then he added two more lines showing a transfer from Joe Blow to Jon Smith. He ran DROS for Joe Blow and did a PPT to Jon Smith from Joe Blow immediately afterward. He did require for them to write a bill of sale up before he did this.

Now the thing I missed is was the DROS for Joe Blow for two.. or four receivers.

[dwtt]

Why not do it this way?
When receiver arrives at FFL, have the buyer who's going to finally own it DROS it with the FFL. This seems much easier in my eyes, partly because this is what I did for someone here on this board.

[tenpercentfirearms]

First, a DROS for a PPT while in the waiting period for the importation DROS sounds doable, but if either DROS falls through, unrolling the transactions could become messy.It is not messy at all. You take the $50 cash from the two guys before you do anything and explain to them if anything goes wrong, it is non-refundable. Then you start the DROS on the first guy, wait a minute, start the PPT between the two guys. If the first guy falls through, the DOJ will notify you. Then you would go into the DROS system and with two clicks of the mouse, you cancel the other guys DROS. End of story.Since all Stags are interchangeable (as nearly all receivers are mostly interchangeable), here is a much simpler scheme: I get the two receivers that just arrived, and keep them. In a completely unrelated transaction I take the two old receivers from my gun safe, and sell them to my friend. It is purely a coincidence that these two transactions happen to occur on the same day.What in the heck? Unless you are a FFL yourself, this makes no sense. What you would have to do is take your two receivers and either do a private party transfer to your friend through the FFL (that costs $25 for him and $25 for you to DROS your new lowers) or you would have to give them to the FFL who would then have to turn around and DROS them to your friend and you would still have to DROS your lowers. Either way, everyone has to pay $25 to the FFL.

What you should do is just order your two lowers. When they show up, tell your dealer, this is who they are for. He paid for them, they are his, I want you to DROS them to him. I do not want them and since I just bought some lowers from you, you know this is not a straw purchase. Bam, he pays the $25 and end of story.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Ok, the main problem seems to be no one knows the specifics of DROS. I do.

First, a simple DROS transaction is where a person wants to buy a gun from a gun dealer (FFL). The person comes into the shop, pays $25 and starts his/her ten day way. If it is a handgun, the handgun is supposed to be present or you must know it is on its way and know the serial number as the DROS software asks for a serial number. You do not necessarily need this for long guns as it does not ask for a serial number. After ten 24 hour periods the person can pick it up. If there is a problem, the DOJ notifies you in writing and through the software that you have a flag and you have to review it.

A Private Party Transfer (PPT) is completely different. That is between to private parties and only involves the FFL because the state says all transactions have to be DROSed (with a few exceptions we won't cover here). In a private party transaction, both the seller and buyer must come into the FFL and scan their CA DL. At that time, the firearm is relinquished to the FFL and he/she holds onto it for ten 24 hour periods while the background of the buyer is checked. The FFL is mandated by the state to accept no more than $10 as a fee for doing this in addition to the $25 DROS fee. A PPT can only occur between to non-licensed citizens and cannot involve any of the FFLs inventory.

A straw purchase is where a FFL suspects that someone is doing the paperwork on a gun transaction with the intention of giving that firearm to a prohibited individual. If a person comes in and says, "I want to buy a handgun for my boyfriend for his birthday", that is a straw purchase and I say no. If a person comes in and says, "Here is my boyfriend, I am buying him a handgun for his birthday, here is the money, do the paperwork in his name" I would say yes. As long as I am convinced the person who is going to own the firearm is the one putting their name on the gun, I will do it. If the person who will not eventually own the firearm is not putting it in their name, no. The only exception is on long guns for immediate family members, but brothers and sisters are iffy.

So for the sake of lowers, I could care less who pays for them. If a bunch of guys come into my shop and they say, "Brent here ordered all of the lowers from you and paid you, but we all are DROSing one", that is fine. Especially if Brent is also DROSing a firearm. It would be hard to argue that is a straw purcahse when the guy bankrolling the project is also doing a background check. The key is: is the person getting the firearm the one who is putting it in their name and the one picking it up at the end of the ten days. That really is it.

So if you bought two lowers and they are in route, when you go into the FFL, say, "My friend paid for one and I paid for the other and we both want to DROS." Making a guy put down both lowers on the FFL and then watching the guy sell one to his buddy right there in front of you and making a receipt and then filling out another 4473 for his buddy with the same firearm also on that 4473 is just plain silly. In fact, I would think you would be doing nothing more than giving a paper trail that you had one gun DROSed to two people at the same time. Just say, "You DROS this one, you DROS that one. Done."

[dwtt]

It is not messy at all. You take the $50 cash from the two guys before you do anything and explain to them if anything goes wrong, it is non-refundable. Then you start the DROS on the first guy, wait a minute, start the PPT between the two guys. If the first guy falls through, the DOJ will notify you. Then you would go into the DROS system and with two clicks of the mouse, you cancel the other guys DROS. End of story.

You must have done well in Marketing classes in school. :D

[monkey]

This is very strange. You already have 2 lowers and have 2 more coming in that you want your friends to have? Easy, just have your friends go to the FFL when they arrive and they do the DROS. You don't even need to show up. Just because you paid for them means nothing. You don't need to insert yourself into this any further if that is all you want to do.

The trouble with what you suggest (2 parallel DROS's on the same gun) is not a California issue, but a federal issue. It's not a straw purchase, especially if you both are legally eligible to own guns. The trouble is the simultaneous DROS is clear evidence of unlicensed "dealing" in firearms. This is illegal. Though the law is a bit vague, you are allowed "infrequent" sales of firearms without having a license. Buying a gun with the intent of immediate resale is "dealing" and federal law says you have to have an FFL for that. This isn't vague and selling a gun that you just bought THAT fast is a pretty clear red flag for an unlicensed dealer beef.

[xenophobe]

Whoah, this is a simple matter that applies no matter WHAT the situaion is concerning a long gun in dealer inventory, or not disposed by a dealer, regardless of who paid for it:

If you are NOT in possession of a long gun that a dealer has and wish to transfer it to someone else, regardless of who has paid for it, a PPT is not necessary, just a standard dros.

If it were a handgun, and you dros'ed it to your name, and decided you didn't want it, but a friend did, only then would a PPT be necessary. If you had not dros'ed the handgun, it would be logged out to the person who physically removed the firearm from the store.

However, a PPT would be required is on a non SB15 dealer possessed consignment handgun, or a firearm you phsyically bring to a dealer for the very purpose of tranferring to another private individual...

[MicronuT]

Thats what I did. I paid for 4 units from an out of state dealer who shipped them to my FFL. When I went to my FFL I drosed 2 and my friend did 2. My FFL had no problem doing it that why and the dealer I purchased them from said it was no problem even though I paid for them.


just because you pay for them to get shipped doesnt mean anything, about registration