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View Full Version : Calgunners...talk to me about longrange rifles.


Trendkill
02-28-2010, 9:42 PM
I want to build a bad*** .308 boltgun.....a remington 700.

However...there are like 3 billion different 700 models out there.

I have been eyeing the Remington 700 SPS Varmit 26"bbl 308.....is this a good foundation for a build...????

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=96849

Im not to hip on the mega huge short bull barrel type's...and I think more muzzle velocity cant be bad. So.....whats the down low on these things...am I on the right track.???

CamW
02-28-2010, 11:24 PM
Try posting your question in the Precision Rifle Forum, you'll get more answers there.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=123

Here's my .308, I started with a Factory varmint gun , shot the barrel out and had it rebuilt.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7083/gappeace10rnd8qb.jpg

StraightShooter
02-28-2010, 11:28 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=214398

Getting a Rem sps varmint and upgrading the stock is a good way to get your feet wet.

SoCalRandy
03-01-2010, 5:43 AM
That's a great choice for a bolt gun! Budsgunshop.com has better pricing though.

pontiacpratt
03-01-2010, 11:45 AM
Just picked up my SPS Varmint from Bass Pro for $549
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o158/figgie1/jasonstuff/P1020638.jpg
Vortex Diamondback Rifle scope 4-12x40 from Optic's planet for $189
Leopold Rings and bases ~$60 as Bass Pro.
Saturday is break in day.

xibunkrlilkidsx
03-01-2010, 12:05 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/GimpyVision/Guns%20and%20knives/Picture108-1.jpg

rem 700 sps varmit.
i love mine, its a real good basic rifle for starting out on a limited budget.

Iggy
03-01-2010, 2:36 PM
It's a great rifle. Here is how I did with mine on my first time out.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=275119

ocmarksman
03-01-2010, 3:50 PM
that is a very solid foundation and you can tweak it, based on what kind of shooting you plan on doing. one point to consider is try to buy the best scope you can up front.

Rob454
03-01-2010, 3:55 PM
Be different buy a Savage

LOL sorry. Look around you can pick up pretty modified 700s for a decent price.

Solidsnake87
03-01-2010, 3:59 PM
Distance shooting is an addiction. Its not something you just try. If you truly want something "bad ***" then go custom from the outset. I have a wonderful 308 that I've hot rodded but I still wish I had gone with a custom build.

Look here for a list of the top tier actions along with blerbs of info about their specific uses.

http://www.6mmbr.com/actions.html

The 700 is a VERY popular platform and there are MANY aftermarket highly custom actions based on the 700 design. I'd recommend the Lawton 7500. A 1000 yard world record was set by the guy the runs Lawton Machine. Also, the Lawton actions are quite a deal compared to similar custom actions, such as surgeon.

swerv512
03-01-2010, 4:50 PM
if you're going to build a serious LR rifle- do yourself a favor and go custom. by the time you have your M700 comparable to a custom build- you'll have spent more $$$ on the upgrades than going custom from the start.

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 5:53 PM
if you're going to build a serious LR rifle- do yourself a favor and go custom. by the time you have your M700 comparable to a custom build- you'll have spent more $$$ on the upgrades than going custom from the start.

I think you may be right.....good thing I asked here.

The Lawton 7000 and 7500 seem pretty cool. Id probably get a Jewell trigger.....then what..??? Do they take a Remmy 700 type barrel and stock..??

Jonathan Doe
03-01-2010, 6:08 PM
I just rebarreled my single shot Remington 40X with a Palma barrel. That is 30" Krieger SS barrel with 1-13.5" twist to shoot regulation 308 Win 155 grain match bullets at 1,000 yards.

swerv512
03-01-2010, 6:11 PM
not familiar with lawton although they do look very nice...
i've heard good things about stiller tac actions. probably worth looking at- plus they're model 700 based so they'd fit 700 components....

rksimple
03-01-2010, 6:46 PM
The 700 is a VERY popular platform and there are MANY aftermarket highly custom actions based on the 700 design. I'd recommend the Lawton 7500. A 1000 yard world record was set by the guy the runs Lawton Machine. Also, the Lawton actions are quite a deal compared to similar custom actions, such as surgeon.

Do you own a Lawton? Or did you just read about it somewhere? Why do you recommend them? Read a little bit:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1543509#Post1543509

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1531437#Post1531437

And there are more...

You get what you pay for. The Surgeon 591 is the best action I've run, period. If you go custom right off the bat, and you find long range isn't for you, you'll still be able to sell the rifle and not take a beating.

Do some research as to what long range accuracy entails. The rifle, scope, and ammo requirements for long range precision do not come without a serious investment.

brando
03-01-2010, 7:05 PM
I'm not sure what's going on here, but Lawton has a great reputation. What sets them apart is ELR platforms. They have been the primary barrel manufacturer for Cheytac for many years and before Barney Lawton died last year, he was arguably the most knowledgeable barrel manufacturer on shooting solid lathed-turned bullets. Sure, most custom shops can build you an excellent .338 Lapua Magnum, but Lawton is still the place many ELR shooters go to when building a .408 or .375 Cheytac. Their 7000 and 8000 series actions are also well received.

With Barney passed away, his son Bobby took over the company and as far as I've heard all is good. Those SH threads seem to paint a different picture, but I'm not entirely sure what's up with that.

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 7:08 PM
Do you own a Lawton? Or did you just read about it somewhere? Why do you recommend them? Read a little bit:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1543509#Post1543509

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1531437#Post1531437

And there are more...

You get what you pay for. The Surgeon 591 is the best action I've run, period. If you go custom right off the bat, and you find long range isn't for you, you'll still be able to sell the rifle and not take a beating.

Do some research as to what long range accuracy entails. The rifle, scope, and ammo requirements for long range precision do not come without a serious investment.

I imagine its pretty costly.....but....oh well...its my cross to bear.


I am going to ask around a bunch and research before buying anything.

I like the McMillian A-4 stock...dunno if its compatible with detach mags...but I like it.

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 7:14 PM
So here's what I like so far...

I like the idea of the remington 700 action...

I want .308

I like the McMillian A4 stock

I like the idea of detachable magazines...but if there are no reliable ones...then its out.

I like the Remington SPS Varmit size barrel...but want mega accuracy out of a custom.

I like the sound of the Jewel trigger.


Things I dont know about with these kind of rifles

Everything.

Why they are so appealing..??

Not sure how you can have long action and short action .308...??

What is BDL and ADL when selecting stocks..??

Oh...and everything.

FMJBT
03-01-2010, 7:21 PM
Screw it, just get this one:

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/icon_warlord.php

https://secure.tcarms.com/store/images/detailed/warlord-callouts12543479444ac3d4a83e206.jpg

:D:D:D:D:D

Solidsnake87
03-01-2010, 7:32 PM
Yes, that stock is compatible with mags. it might require some mods but it will fit. The most important thing is to actually get an action that mag systems have been developed for.

Do you own a Lawton? Or did you just read about it somewhere? Why do you recommend them? Read a little bit:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...09#Post1543509

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...37#Post1531437

And there are more...

You get what you pay for. The Surgeon 591 is the best action I've run, period. If you go custom right off the bat, and you find long range isn't for you, you'll still be able to sell the rifle and not take a beating.

Do some research as to what long range accuracy entails. The rifle, scope, and ammo requirements for long range precision do not come without a serious investment.
__________________

Not sure what that has to do with the quality of Lawton stuff.

The Lawton is a suggestion. Lots of people stand by them and their stuff has been used to set world records. The price tag is what makes it a winner in my book. They don't skimp on quality and still manage to make a very affordable custom action. There are many nice actions out there if you like somethin else.



Pick and choose wisely. There are lots of great products available. It is MUCH cheaper to go custom from the outset rather than hot rodding as you go.

brando
03-01-2010, 7:35 PM
What I usually recommend for folks getting into precision shooting is to just buy a basic factory rifle and decent glass. There's no point in spending lots of money on a bad *** guitar until you know how to play.

Just about any basic Remington 700 (PSS for example) or an FN PBR would be a good starting choice. .308 is the perfect starter cartridge and when you can make reliable hits at 800-1000 yards then it's time to consider moving up to a .300WM or .338 Lapua Magnum, but by this time if you're serious about precision long range shooting then you should consider learning how to make your own loads. When you can reliably hit 1600 yards with those magnum cartridges, then the next step is a .408 or .375 Cheytac ;)

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 7:40 PM
Screw it, just get this one:



Knowing T/C...im sure its quite the Tack driver.

Nessal
03-01-2010, 7:45 PM
What I usually recommend for folks getting into precision shooting is to just buy a basic factory rifle and decent glass. There's no point in spending lots of money on a bad *** guitar until you know how to play.

Just about any basic Remington 700 (PSS for example) or an FN PBR would be a good starting choice. .308 is the perfect starter cartridge and when you can make reliable hits at 800-1000 yards then it's time to consider moving up to a .300WM or .338 Lapua Magnum, but by this time if you're serious about precision long range shooting then you should consider learning how to make your own loads. When you can reliably hit 1600 yards with those magnum cartridges, then the next step is a .408 or .375 Cheytac ;)



Agreed. The Remington 700 outshoots most noobs to bolt actions anyways. By the time you get good, you would probably have outshot the barrel. By that time, you should have enough experience to know what you WANT out of a rifle and not what is cool and your second build might be totally different than the "badass" rifle that you wanted to begin with.

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 7:48 PM
What I usually recommend for folks getting into precision shooting is to just buy a basic factory rifle and decent glass. There's no point in spending lots of money on a bad *** guitar until you know how to play.

Just about any basic Remington 700 (PSS for example) or an FN PBR would be a good starting choice. .308 is the perfect starter cartridge and when you can make reliable hits at 800-1000 yards then it's time to consider moving up to a .300WM or .338 Lapua Magnum, but by this time if you're serious about precision long range shooting then you should consider learning how to make your own loads. When you can reliably hit 1600 yards with those magnum cartridges, then the next step is a .408 or .375 Cheytac ;)

Well....let me clarify. Although Im new to this type of shooting...Im not new to shooting in general. I have a decent idea as to what I want. Im not going for mile long precision shots...but rather tactical precision. I want a "Sniper" type if you will. I may want to graduate to bigger stuff later...but this build is for a sniper type precision rifle...if that makes sense. You know.....a 800 yd "Varmint" gun. :D


By longrange...I meant sniper type rifle. I was trying to be coy about the whole "Sniper" word.

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 7:49 PM
Agreed. The Remington 700 outshoots most noobs to bolt actions anyways. By the time you get good, you would probably have outshot the barrel. By that time, you should have enough experience to know what you WANT out of a rifle and not what is cool and your second build might be totally different than the "badass" rifle that you wanted to begin with.

Yeah...but cant I have badass now..??

brando
03-01-2010, 7:55 PM
Well....let me clarify. Although Im new to this type of shooting...Im not new to shooting in general. I have a decent idea as to what I want. Im not going for mile long precision shots...but rather tactical precision. I want a "Sniper" type if you will. I may want to graduate to bigger stuff later...but this build is for a sniper type precision rifle...if that makes sense. You know.....a 800 yd "Varmint" gun. :D

Do you think all soldiers that attend the Army's Sniper Course or long tabbers that attend SOTIC are new to shooting? To the contrary - the price of admission to those courses is proving you have an above average marksmanship ability. The key difference is that once you start precision shooting you start dealing with lots of other factors that don't necessarily translate from battle rifles (for example). You need to learn to determine both range and wind with reasonable precision as well as environmental effects on your load. On top of that, most folks who haven't gotten behind a precision scope know how to actually use it.

This is all the more reason to just buy a basic "beginner" setup and then invest in a precision rifle course.

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 7:58 PM
Do you think all soldiers that attend the Army's Sniper Course or long tabbers that attend SOTIC are new to shooting? To the contrary - the price of admission to those courses is proving you have an above average marksmanship ability. The key difference is that once you start precision shooting you start dealing with lots of other factors that don't necessarily translate from battle rifles (for example). You need to learn to determine both range and wind with reasonable precision as well as environmental effects on your load. On top of that, most folks who haven't gotten behind a precision scope know how to actually use it.

This is all the more reason to just buy a basic "beginner" setup and then invest in a precision rifle course.

I totally agree with you.

So....do you think the original question is a valid one then..?? Get the Remmy SPS Varmint...and customize as I go..??

brando
03-01-2010, 8:01 PM
I have no experience with that particular model, but as long as it's chambered in .308 I think you're fine.

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 8:06 PM
I have no experience with that particular model, but as long as it's chambered in .308 I think you're fine.

It is....

I do think Id probably evolve into wanting more out of the rifle....Im a quick learner..and shooting has always come very natural to me , but what you say makes lots of sense. I trust your insight on this one.

I'll start lookin into some precision rifle courses.

Anyone know if they hold any at the Metcalf range in San Jose..??

Vu 308
03-01-2010, 8:21 PM
Yes, that stock is compatible with mags. it might require some mods but it will fit. The most important thing is to actually get an action that mag systems have been developed for.



Not sure what that has to do with the quality of Lawton stuff.

The Lawton is a suggestion. Lots of people stand by them and their stuff has been used to set world records. The price tag is what makes it a winner in my book. They don't skimp on quality and still manage to make a very affordable custom action. There are many nice actions out there if you like somethin else.



Pick and choose wisely. There are lots of great products available. It is MUCH cheaper to go custom from the outset rather than hot rodding as you go.

Hey Clark, not to bust your balls but how many custom rigs do own? Last time I checked you are running a SPR? Good rig and all but since when did you become an expert on custom built LR rifles?

How many rigs have you put together and had built? How many smiths do you talk to and work with on custom rigs?

Lawton was a good company....keyword is WAS. I know people that have personally had some seriously ill stuff sold to them. Bum barrels, bum actions, and bum dealings. Things are so bad that Bobby has been banned from the Hide completely for bad dealings with the members there.

You talk about the price tag of the lawton being attractive. Well the Stiller Tac 30s are in the same ball park and I've seen a lot more Stillers online than Lawtons. I personally own 3 and they are great actions for the 800.00 range.

So besides reading internet stuff on Lawtons being so great..do you actually have any first hand knowledge or we just firing from the hip?

Sorry to come down a lil harsh but we see you but every other blue moon to shoot but you are the resident expert here it seems. + It would suck to steer a Cal Gun's member down the wrong path and have his money tied up in some BS.

Pthfndr
03-01-2010, 8:23 PM
I'll start lookin into some precision rifle courses.

Anyone know if they hold any at the Metcalf range in San Jose..??

Come to the NCPPRC long range clinic in Sept. Registration will open August 1. Only $60 and you will have the chance to learn a lot about rifles, scopes and shooting long range from guys that do it every month. We take the shooters from 200 yards all the way out to 1000 yards.

http://www.ncpprc.com/long_range_clinics.html

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 8:33 PM
Come to the NCPPRC long range clinic in Sept. Registration will open August 1. Only $60 and you will have the chance to learn a lot about rifles, scopes and shooting long range from guys that do it every month. We take the shooters from 200 yards all the way out to 1000 yards.

http://www.ncpprc.com/long_range_clinics.html

Awesome..!!!

Will I need the rifle by then...or are there loaners...??? Hows it work..?? Nevermind...answered my own question by reading your link...didnt see it there..Lol.

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 8:44 PM
Ok....so....what Im going to do is take the steps to get the Remington SPS 700 Varmint.

Now I just need to get some decent glass to learn on before buyin that Nightforce scope. Any recommendations...??? Something with a ballistic-type plex right..??

Pthfndr
03-01-2010, 8:53 PM
Ok....so....what Im going to do is take the steps to get the Remington SPS 700 Varmint.

Now I just need to get some decent glass to learn on before buyin that Nightforce scope. Any recommendations...??? Something with a ballistic-type plex right..??

Read the tacked threads in the California Precision Rifle Club forum about choosing your rifle, how to use your scope, and MIL vs MOA. Lots of good info you should know before you spend your hard earned money.

rksimple
03-01-2010, 8:54 PM
C'mon Vu-why you gotta bust balls? :)

OP-be careful to whose advice you listen. There are those who do and those who read and talk. You'd be fine with an SPS and some decent glass. Learn how to drive the rifle/scope and what long range precision entails. After a few k rounds behind it you'll know what you want in an upgrade.

If you have the money to go with a custom, I'd probably say get a 700p and spend the money you save on glass. An average rifle with great glass will shoot pretty well. A fantastic rifle with mediocre glass will be mediocre. Go to the class the norcal crew puts on. You'll learn more there than many trips to the range.

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 9:05 PM
C'mon Vu-why you gotta bust balls? :)

OP-be careful to whose advice you listen to. There are those who do and those who read and talk. You'd be fine with an SPS and some decent glass. Learn how to drive the rifle/scope and what long range precision entails. After a few k rounds behind it you'll know what you want in an upgrade.

If you have the money to go with a custom, I'd probably say get a 700p and spend the money you save on glass. An average rifle with great glass will shoot pretty well. A fantastic rifle with mediocre glass will be mediocre. Go to the class the norcal crew puts on. You'll learn more there than many trips to the range.

Im there....

All I have right now is a 30-06 to practice with....so I guess thats better than nothing.

But Id like to atleast get started soon on the Rem platform...that way I'll be kinda used to it by the time I get to the class. I think the SPS will be good for now...theyre like 540..thats not too bad. I could probably afford another 500 on some glass...but Id like the glass to be similar in function to some of the top tier stuff , for learning purposes.

rksimple
03-01-2010, 9:08 PM
For good glass, expect 1400 plus. In the 500 dollar range, there are few that are worth a damn.

Vu 308
03-01-2010, 9:20 PM
Trendkill,

Ryan is correct about the glass. If you can save a few more pennies get a Leupold Mark 4, 4-14 mildot with a 20MOA base on the rig and you will be fine out 1K.

Save the rest on ammo because you will need a lot of range time and ammo is not cheap.

Leupold VariX III with target knobs will work as well. They run 600.00 or so used. Next step up would be a Nightforce NXS 3-15 which can be found for around 1300 used.

Rings and a good bi-pod, swivel with notched legs.

If you are in the bay area and can make up to one of the practice session the guys will gladly let you behind their rigs and scopes to see what suits your needs.

As ryan has said...there are those that do, and those that post.........

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 9:47 PM
Read the tacked threads in the California Precision Rifle Club forum about choosing your rifle, how to use your scope, and MIL vs MOA. Lots of good info you should know before you spend your hard earned money.

Holy God there is a lot of info in there......man oh man.

I didnt know there was this whole other world....just when I thought shooting was getting kind of hoe hum...this shows up....sweet.

This is challenging stuff...

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 9:51 PM
Trendkill,

Ryan is correct about the glass. If you can save a few more pennies get a Leupold Mark 4, 4-14 mildot with a 20MOA base on the rig and you will be fine out 1K.

Save the rest on ammo because you will need a lot of range time and ammo is not cheap.

Leupold VariX III with target knobs will work as well. They run 600.00 or so used. Next step up would be a Nightforce NXS 3-15 which can be found for around 1300 used.

Rings and a good bi-pod, swivel with notched legs.

If you are in the bay area and can make up to one of the practice session the guys will gladly let you behind their rigs and scopes to see what suits your needs.

As ryan has said...there are those that do, and those that post.........

Roger that on the Scope....guess the scope can stay the same as the rifle evolves.

Do you guys ever have practice sessions close to the SF bay area..?? Id like to come see one. Check out the stuff...bug people with dumb questions..etc etc. ;)

swerv512
03-01-2010, 9:54 PM
^^^
Sac Valley is the closest place to the bay to shoot 1k. It makes for a long day- but it's well worth the travel. Come on out!

Trendkill
03-01-2010, 10:19 PM
^^^
Sac Valley is the closest place to the bay to shoot 1k. It makes for a long day- but it's well worth the travel. Come on out!

Bout an hour and a half drive.....not too bad.

I saved the website to keep track of the Calendar....Im gonna make a little road trip to do some research.

swerv512
03-01-2010, 10:33 PM
it's an easy drive up in the mornings- but usually traffic on the way back to the bay...

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 12:07 AM
As ryan has said...there are those that do, and those that post.........

I like to post...




















...when I'm not out shooting or working on guns in the shop. ;)

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 12:10 AM
It makes for a long day- but it's well worth the travel.

It makes for a long weekend...
This friday I will leave work at noon to arrive up in sac for a late dinner and maybe beers with the local guys.
Saturday morning is practice.
Then more beers with the local guys in the evening.
Sunday is the match and THEN I have to drive 6+ hours home.

You guys in the bay area have it easy.

swerv512
03-02-2010, 1:22 AM
i'd be down to hit up saugus, but not for one day...

Solidsnake87
03-02-2010, 1:23 AM
Hey Clark, not to bust your balls but how many custom rigs do own? Last time I checked you are running a SPR? Good rig and all but since when did you become an expert on custom built LR rifles? How many rigs have you put together and had built? How many smiths do you talk to and work with on custom rigs?

I've been learning to build my own equipment (bolt and gas) for the last year. Money is tight and i'm savin pennies. I've learned that you save quite a bit by doing a lot of work yourself. You're right I own no completed custom rigs, I have 4 mostly built ones that I am waiting on $ to finish. I talk to quite a few ppl that have been doing this hobby for some time actually. I knock out my projects as time, money, and access to machine shops allows.

Lawton was a good company....keyword is WAS. I know people that have personally had some seriously ill stuff sold to them. Bum barrels, bum actions, and bum dealings. Things are so bad that Bobby has been banned from the Hide completely for bad dealings with the members there.So besides reading internet stuff on Lawtons being so great..do you actually have any first hand knowledge or we just firing from the hip?

Good to know, my 7500 action seems just fine--then again I bought it second hand from a Calgunner that never built it about a year ago. I still have yet to screw on the barrel but the quality seems there. Vu, I'm sure I know a lot more than you give me credit for...........

Sorry to come down a lil harsh but we see you but every other blue moon to shoot but you are the resident expert here it seems. + It would suck to steer a Cal Gun's member down the wrong path and have his money tied up in some BS.

You go to school Vu? I'm at 20 units in Civil Engineering. Sound like cake? Pretty obvious why I only show during winter and summer. :rolleyes: I agree, it would suck to steer somebody wrong. Before I made my purchase, I read up the info available at the time. When I got mine, it was highly lauded and several friends recommended the action to me..........I'm just trying to help this guy out.....sorry for offering my 2 cents...... I love my SPR but I regret not going custom. This seems to be a common regret for many. lol. peace man.

Vu 308
03-02-2010, 7:59 AM
Sorry, don't do 20 units but I am sure my adult life keeps me plenty busy.:)

Owning an action that sits in your hands that has never seen a round down range hardly qualifies as experience. That is like saying "yup...this motor is the cat's arse" but never having it built or ran it.

Throw your 2 cents out where you may, however others will have their opinions as well.

Custom is not the end all and we do not recommend them for new shooters for several reasons.

1. They are new to the game and its not a cheap game. We always push new shooters to buy good glass and lots of ammo. Of course there are those with deep pockets that will go full blown custom out of the gate, this is the exception and not the norm.

2. How are they suppose to know what they want never having shot LR before? Because some guy on the internet says so? Notice we always tell a newbie to come on out and check out the rigs and glass in person?

3. In our experience bringing with new shooters we have seen better results having them buy a Rem 5R, good glass, and a ton of range time vs. having a guy blow his wad on a 5000.00 rig.

Vu 308
03-02-2010, 8:01 AM
Bout an hour and a half drive.....not too bad.

I saved the website to keep track of the Calendar....Im gonna make a little road trip to do some research.



Trend,

We also have our own online forum for all the guys that shoot with us. The site is dedicated to LR shooting and competition. Feel free to join up.

Link should be on our home page @ www.ncpprc.com


See you on the line soon,

Vu

Trendkill
03-02-2010, 8:57 AM
So...I was looking at some of the glass.

If Im correct.....are these the recommended scopes..??

http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-mark-4-4-5-14x50mm-lr-t-m1-rifle-scope.html

http://www.opticsplanet.net/leupold-vx3-45-14x50mm-long-range-rifle-scope.html

http://www.opticsplanet.net/nightforce-nxs-35-15x56-tactical-riflescope.html


Are illuminated reticles something to consider...??? Are they something that could be utilized in the future..??

rksimple
03-02-2010, 9:00 AM
Of the ones you listed, go Nightforce and don't look back.

Illumination is a nice feature. Doesn't get used very much, but nonetheless, good to have.

skkeeter
03-02-2010, 9:18 AM
Hey Clark, not to bust your balls but how many custom rigs do own? Last time I checked you are running a SPR? Good rig and all but since when did you become an expert on custom built LR rifles?

How many rigs have you put together and had built? How many smiths do you talk to and work with on custom rigs?

Lawton was a good company....keyword is WAS. I know people that have personally had some seriously ill stuff sold to them. Bum barrels, bum actions, and bum dealings. Things are so bad that Bobby has been banned from the Hide completely for bad dealings with the members there.

You talk about the price tag of the lawton being attractive. Well the Stiller Tac 30s are in the same ball park and I've seen a lot more Stillers online than Lawtons. I personally own 3 and they are great actions for the 800.00 range.

So besides reading internet stuff on Lawtons being so great..do you actually have any first hand knowledge or we just firing from the hip?

Sorry to come down a lil harsh but we see you but every other blue moon to shoot but you are the resident expert here it seems. + It would suck to steer a Cal Gun's member down the wrong path and have his money tied up in some BS.

LOL, thanks for posting this. It just made me feel a lot better about some BS in another thread.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 9:24 AM
LOL, thanks for posting this. It just made me feel a lot better about some BS in another thread.

Ask Clark how far the target is supposed to be above the berm... ;)

Trendkill
03-02-2010, 9:31 AM
Of the ones you listed, go Nightforce and don't look back.

Illumination is a nice feature. Doesn't get used very much, but nonetheless, good to have.

Its like an extra 250-300 bucks....guess its better to have than to have not. I've got some saving to do for sure.....

Id rather get the good glass...learn on it....and evolve the rifle as I go. Im sure the scope will outlast several barrels.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 9:35 AM
Id rather get the good glass...learn on it....and evolve the rifle as I go. Im sure the scope will outlast several barrels.

This is a good plan.
So many people go cheap on the glass, only to waste the $400+ they spent on the cheap glass when they finally replace it with a good scope.

Trendkill
03-02-2010, 9:43 AM
This is a good plan.
So many people go cheap on the glass, only to waste the $400+ they spent on the cheap glass when they finally replace it with a good scope.

I was reading your thread about scope useage/setup....and its quite intimidating...but it doesnt seem impossible to learn. I went and checked out my own scope I have mounted to my hunting rifle and noticed the whole "Paralax" thing happening , Its trippy. It made me think my shots could vary an inch or so at 100 yds just from my cheek weld changing. Glad I read that....thanks.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 9:49 AM
I went and checked out my own scope I have mounted to my hunting rifle and noticed the whole "Paralax" thing happening , Its trippy.
It made me think my shots could vary an inch or so at 100 yds just from my cheek weld changing.

I'm glad I could open your eyes (pun intended) to that.
Your shots will vary an inch or more at 100yds if the parallax is not correct.

Vu 308
03-02-2010, 10:30 AM
Trend,

Like Ryan said...go NXS and learn the game. After a few thousand rounds down range and a few comps under your belt (if you choose to shoot comps) you will have a better idea of what you want in a piece of glass. Then the only limitation will be your bank account.

I owned 4 NF scopes before going to Premiers...I still have one NXS in the safe for back up. They are bomb proof scopes and just plain work.

Bring your 3006 out in September to our clinic and see what it can do at distance. We had a woman hit @ 1K 6 out 8 shots with a youth size 7mm-08 and leupold hunting scope. Before our clinic she has only shot off a bench @ 100yards.

Vu

Vu 308
03-02-2010, 10:31 AM
LOL, thanks for posting this. It just made me feel a lot better about some BS in another thread.


:D I try........

Trendkill
03-02-2010, 10:59 AM
Trend,

Like Ryan said...go NXS and learn the game. After a few thousand rounds down range and a few comps under your belt (if you choose to shoot comps) you will have a better idea of what you want in a piece of glass. Then the only limitation will be your bank account.

I owned 4 NF scopes before going to Premiers...I still have one NXS in the safe for back up. They are bomb proof scopes and just plain work.

Bring your 3006 out in September to our clinic and see what it can do at distance. We had a woman hit @ 1K 6 out 8 shots with a youth size 7mm-08 and leupold hunting scope. Before our clinic she has only shot off a bench @ 100yards.

Vu

Sure thing.....if I dont have the setup by then...I'll atleast have something.

It would be cool to see what its (I'm) able to do. My scope right now is good for 300 yds at best.....its a 200 dollar hunting scope. :o

brando
03-02-2010, 11:03 AM
So many people go cheap on the glass, only to waste the $400+ they spent on the cheap glass when they finally replace it with a good scope.

The scope is often the first thing folks new to bolt guns skimp on, not realizing how much of an important part of the overall system it is. For plinking, cheap glass is fine, but for precision shooting you'll just beat yourself up over it down the road. The inexpensive stuff tends to not be very durable, so it won't last nor do they tend to track well, so you'll be scratching your head wondering why your rounds are hitting all around the target when in fact your scope has crapped the bed.

The bottom line: a quality scope is an investment that will often outlast the rifle

Now the other thing that is important when starting out is to avoid those classic hunting style duplex reticles. Get one with a mildot or similar ranging reticle. You'll need to learn how to determine distance to your target and modern reticles (especially in the first focal plane) make that possible.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 11:03 AM
It would be cool to see what its (I'm) able to do. My scope right now is good for 300 yds at best.....its a 200 dollar hunting scope. :o

I have shot to 1000yds with a 4x scope.

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:08 AM
Have you considered an M1A Loaded.

http://sgcusa.com/images/large/Springfield_Armory_M1A_Loaded_ClusterRail_(MA9827) _A.jpg

Or if you really want to go overboard, a Whitefeather M1A M25

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/spr_sa9502.jpg

brando
03-02-2010, 11:12 AM
The Whitefeather is arguably one of the worst values on the market. M1A's for the most part are 2MOA rifles out of the box and the Whitefeather costs more than a 1/2MOA custom bolt gun, yet it barely delivers 1.5MOA at its best.

Start with a simple .308 bolt gun and glass - stay away from semis for precision, at least initially.

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:13 AM
The Whitefeather is arguably one of the worst values on the market. M1A's for the most part are 2MOA rifles out of the box and the Whitefeather costs more than a 1/2MOA custom bolt gun, yet it barely delivers 1.5MOA at its best.

Start with a simple .308 bolt gun and glass - stay away from semis for precision, at least initially.

Yeah, I didn't say it was cheap. Some of the custom bolt guns are sweet, I won't argue with you there.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 11:14 AM
Have you considered an M1A Loaded.

Nobody serious about longrange uses an M1a anymore.
Perhaps YOUR definition of longrange is different than everyone else's though. ;)

Shortrange is inside 300yds.
Midrange is 300yds to 800yds.
Longrange is 800 yds to 1200yds.
Extended longrange is beyond 1200yds.

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:17 AM
Nobody serious about longrange uses an M1a anymore.
Perhaps YOUR definition of longrange is different than everyone else's though. ;)

Shortrange is inside 300yds.
Midrange is 300yds to 800yds.
Longrange is 800 yds to 1200yds.
Extended longrange is beyond 1200yds.

I agree, a bolt gun is always the way to go if you're talking really long range. I personally would prefer a semi though. It's a balance between decent range and being able to have a quick follow up shot for me.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 11:18 AM
I agree, a bolt gun is always the way to go if you're talking really long range.

Perhaps you missed the title of the thread?

Calgunners...talk to me about longrange rifles.

emphasis added for clarity.

I personally would prefer a semi though.
It's a balance between decent range and being able to have a quick follow up shot for me.

You don't need a foollowup shot if you don't miss... ;)
Shooting a semi is a self-fulfilling prophecy though.
They miss more so they NEED a quicker follow-up shot.

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:21 AM
Perhaps you missed the title of the thread?



emphasis added for clarity.


long range is subjective. If he wants a long range rifle by your definition, he shouldn't even be looking at a .308. He should be looking at something in a .338 or .408. :D

brando
03-02-2010, 11:22 AM
My point about the Whitefeather was that it was very expensive AND didn't deliver for that price. It would be one thing if it shot 1/2MOA, but it's far from that. Quick follow-up shots are nice, but walking a bunch of rounds to the target isn't precision. On top of that, shooting a 2MOA rifle at 800 yards means you've got a 16" cone of accuracy that you have no control over. In other words, at that distance (depending on the size of your target), random luck will likely play a deciding factor in a hit.

Semi-auto has it's place in the precision world, but it's generally limited to medium ranges and application.

rksimple
03-02-2010, 11:27 AM
I personally would prefer a semi though. It's a balance between decent range and being able to have a quick follow up shot for me.

You should see how fast some guys run boltguns. Semi auto for long range work is hardly needed.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 11:28 AM
long range is subjective.

Ask half a dozen people that actually DO shoot longrange and see what they say.
I bet you almost everyone considers 800yds as the BEGINNING of longrange.

If you want to find some people that actually DO shoot longrange, check here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=123).

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:29 AM
My point about the Whitefeather was that it was very expensive AND didn't deliver for that price. It would be one thing if it shot 1/2MOA, but it's far from that. Quick follow-up shots are nice, but walking a bunch of rounds to the target isn't precision. On top of that, shooting a 2MOA rifle at 800 yards means you've got a 16" cone of accuracy that you have no control over. In other words, at that distance (depending on the size of your target), random luck will likely play a deciding factor in a hit.

Semi-auto has it's place in the precision world, but it's generally limited to medium ranges and application.


Agreed. I was applying my own preferences and needs to the question. A bolt gun is the way to go for extreme ranges.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 11:30 AM
You should see how fast some guys run boltguns. Semi auto for long range work is hardly needed.

Do we have any video of those stages where we run 3 rounds in 6 seconds with a bolt gun?

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:32 AM
You should see how fast some guys run boltguns. Semi auto for long range work is hardly needed.

Relax guys...I already admitted that a bolt gun is better for long range shooting. I was applying my own personal preference for a semi to the question.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 11:34 AM
I was applying my own personal preference for a semi to the question.

Answers to questions should be made objectively, not subjectively. ;)

It's unfortunate that you like to miss a lot.

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:35 AM
Answers to questions should be made objectively, not subjectively. ;)


Thanks, dad.

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:36 AM
Answers to questions should be made objectively, not subjectively. ;)

It's unfortunate that you like to miss a lot.

It's unfortunate that you can't leave well enough alone.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 11:36 AM
Thanks, dad.

You're welcome, son.

ar15barrels
03-02-2010, 11:36 AM
It's unfortunate that you can't leave well enough alone.

"well enough" is subjective. ;)

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:38 AM
"well enough" is subjective. ;)

Yawn. :rolleyes:

Vu 308
03-02-2010, 11:45 AM
long range is subjective. If he wants a long range rifle by your definition, he shouldn't even be looking at a .308. He should be looking at something in a .338 or .408. :D

Actually it is not subjective. NRA defines anything up to 600yard is mid range and 800 - 1K is LR.

Anything beyond 1K is considered ELR.

Like Brando has stated...MIA are sweet but for the money of the top of the line M1A, one could build one hell of a bolt rifle that will shoot rings around any semi auto at distance.

You speak of follow up shots...how about 2 rounds in 3.5seconds on 2 targets at 420 yards? Pretty decent? That was my par time out of my bolt rig. 8" plates.

Just because a bolt gun is manually operated does not mean its not fast. I got to shoot with some guys with the 1/5 STA Platoon and those guys run their bolts freakin fast.

Edited to add:

Why a 338 or 408? A new guy in the LR game has to shoot a lot to learn the art of LR shooting. How will 4.00 to 5.00 per round help? A 308win will make the 1000yard trip with good hand loads. 338s and 408s are ELR calibers. 338 is just the tip of that arena.

brando
03-02-2010, 11:45 AM
One more bit of advice - don't think that more magnification is "best". On more than one occasion I've read advice here where someone suggests getting a 5-25x or 10-42x scope for a .308 bolt gun. I know that sounds intuitive, but the reality is that you should more or less marry your scope range to your rifle's range. The higher you go with magnification, the more you're going to have problems with a tighter FOV (field of view) and potentially mirage. A 3.5-15x or 4-16x I personally think is a good range for a .308 bolt gun. You'll want the low magnification for closer targets obviously, but the main reason will be to help you "see wide" and identify the targets before zooming in. A lot of guys buy these 8-36x scopes and then find themselves scanning all over the place trying to find the targets after spotting with the naked eye or post recoil because their FOV is too tight (even at low power).

Vu 308
03-02-2010, 11:48 AM
=) Of if you do want to go with high mag..just make sure it is a FFP...

SFP......go with what Brando says...3-15X to 4-16X.

brando
03-02-2010, 11:50 AM
When does higher magnification help? When shooting farther. For example, in this vid I was at 20x magnification shooting 10x17" plates at 1250 yards. At 20x magnification I could easily place the POA on a specific portion of the plate (notice in the second shot I aimed at the head so that plate would more violently spring back vs a center mass hit), but I could also get back on target quickly after recoil and spot the impact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPh5Bor15Bs

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:53 AM
One more bit of advice - don't think that more magnification is "best". On more than one occasion I've read advice here where someone suggests getting a 5-25x or 10-42x scope for a .308 bolt gun. I know that sounds intuitive, but the reality is that you should more or less marry your scope range to your rifle's range. The higher you go with magnification, the more you're going to have problems with a tighter FOV (field of view) and potentially mirage. A 3.5-15x or 4-16x I personally think is a good range for a .308 bolt gun. You'll want the low magnification for closer targets obviously, but the main reason will be to help you "see wide" and identify the targets before zooming in. A lot of guys buy these 8-36x scopes and then find themselves scanning all over the place trying to find the targets after spotting with the naked eye or post recoil because their FOV is too tight (even at low power).


That's some good info right there. I think I'll bookmark this thread.

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 11:57 AM
When does higher magnification help? When shooting farther. For example, in this vid I was at 20x magnification shooting 10x17" plates at 1250 yards. At 20x magnification I could easily place the POA on a specific portion of the plate (notice in the second shot I aimed at the head so that plate would more violently spring back vs a center mass hit), but I could also get back on target quickly after recoil and spot the impact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPh5Bor15Bs


Here's another SRS vid showing bolt manipulation. Pretty smooth...

D4N8gN3Z-_I&feature=related

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 12:07 PM
Do any of you guys have experience with the DT SRS in .308? Opinions?

brando
03-02-2010, 12:20 PM
I don't have a .308 conversion for mine yet, but I'll let you know when I do ;)

Here's left-handed bolt manipulation on the SRS
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8A2O565kBkQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8A2O565kBkQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>
FWIW, Louis isn't a lefty either

OutlawDon
03-02-2010, 12:46 PM
NPh5Bor15Bs

Great shooting and, awesome rifle and setup!

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 12:47 PM
I don't have a .308 conversion for mine yet, but I'll let you know when I do ;)

Here's left-handed bolt manipulation on the SRS
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8A2O565kBkQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8A2O565kBkQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>
FWIW, Louis isn't a lefty either

Pretty nice. I shoot left handed.

brando
03-02-2010, 12:55 PM
1250 yards in low wind conditions with a .338LM out of a 1/2MOA rifle isn't that difficult. 1600 yards is a different story. The 250gr Scenar leaving the muzzle at around 2950 fps is a very good general purpose ELR cartridge, but going beyond 1600 yards is a crap shoot. The 300gr Scenar (or 300gr SMK for that matter) can carry a bit further, but honestly that's where the .375 and .408 start to really stand out.

And I should point out that when you start getting into that 1500+ yard arena, semi-autos make ZERO sense. The time of flight on the bullet starts to play a factor as well as reading environmental conditions. When making a 2300 yard shot it behooves you to take your time between shots to re-evaluate the wind. In fact, during ELR sessions at those ranges it even makes sense not to chamber the next round until you've re-evaluated everything and made adjustments to your firing solution. At 2300 yards, for example, the velocity difference you get from a round sitting in a hot chamber while you spot and calculate can lead to the round going just over the target. That's one of the biggest headaches with ELR shooting: minute changes get magnified SIGNIFICANTLY at those distances.

Hmm, sorry for the hijack, OP

Vanguard
03-02-2010, 2:03 PM
I doubt the OP minds, you're giving useful info.

HappyG
03-02-2010, 2:07 PM
Accuracy International?

brando
03-02-2010, 2:17 PM
Accuracy International?

Hmm, for a beginner you'd be looking at spending about $5k for the rifle and that doesn't include scope, rings, bipod, etc. For people new to bolt guns, it's HIGHLY recommended you start simple, but hey if you want to drop $5k on the rifle vs $1k, more power to ya ;)

Trendkill
03-02-2010, 2:23 PM
One more bit of advice - don't think that more magnification is "best". On more than one occasion I've read advice here where someone suggests getting a 5-25x or 10-42x scope for a .308 bolt gun. I know that sounds intuitive, but the reality is that you should more or less marry your scope range to your rifle's range. The higher you go with magnification, the more you're going to have problems with a tighter FOV (field of view) and potentially mirage. A 3.5-15x or 4-16x I personally think is a good range for a .308 bolt gun. You'll want the low magnification for closer targets obviously, but the main reason will be to help you "see wide" and identify the targets before zooming in. A lot of guys buy these 8-36x scopes and then find themselves scanning all over the place trying to find the targets after spotting with the naked eye or post recoil because their FOV is too tight (even at low power).


Thats a damn good point.....

Trendkill
03-02-2010, 2:26 PM
When does higher magnification help? When shooting farther. For example, in this vid I was at 20x magnification shooting 10x17" plates at 1250 yards. At 20x magnification I could easily place the POA on a specific portion of the plate (notice in the second shot I aimed at the head so that plate would more violently spring back vs a center mass hit), but I could also get back on target quickly after recoil and spot the impact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPh5Bor15Bs

Wow....thats impressive...thanks for sharing.

Trendkill
03-02-2010, 2:33 PM
I doubt the OP minds, you're giving useful info.

yup