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View Full Version : can someone explaine to me whats so deadly about FNH's five-seven?


Clayface
02-27-2010, 9:15 AM
Well after that shooting on a base a lot of people have dubbed it a "cop killer" but what's the real story?

cdtx2001
02-27-2010, 9:23 AM
The bullets travel so fast that supposedly they can go through a BP vest.

I don't know why certain guns are called cop killers and others aren't. Aren't all guns potentially cop killers? And why just concern with cops? What about good guys, dogs, cats, birds, deer, ducks, cars, bull dozers, etc... A gun in the wrong hands can kill anything. I know, don't bother our rulers and the media with logic.

tgriffin
02-27-2010, 9:28 AM
It's the rifle like ballistics. 5.7 cal moving pretty darn fast is a challenge for anything that doesn't have a rifle plate in the carrier.

rag9393
02-27-2010, 9:49 AM
Ballistic vests are not able to stop everything so I don't know why the big deal about the 5-7.

Maestro Pistolero
02-27-2010, 9:54 AM
Fired from a pistol, the velocity is only 1650 fps. I would be surprised if that light round could do much damage after penetrating a vest, if it did.

As a comparison, the primary wounding mechanism of a 5.56 round is fragmentation, caused by velocities at or above 2700 FPS. Anything much under that, the round loses lethality fast. That's why SBRs aren't too effective in that round except up close, because in a very short barrel the round barely achieves 2700 fps at the muzzle.

As another comparison FBI tests show that 5.56 rounds are less than sufficient to a dig suspect out from behind walls and other barriers, and have taken to training to transition to handguns for this purpose. Apparently the heavier, slower rounds are better for this.

All that said, and without any actual knowledge of the effectiveness of the 5.57 round, I suspect it is part truth, and part hype. But, in a rifle with a 16-inch or longer barrel . . .

J-cat
02-27-2010, 10:12 AM
Well after that shooting on a base a lot of people have dubbed it a "cop killer" but what's the real story?

Maybe if you were to dip these bullets in poop, they would be more likely to start an infection?

Rukus
02-27-2010, 11:09 AM
It's because the 5.7 round was originally designed for the FN P90 weapons platform. The rounds were originally for LEO/MIL and indeed were loaded much hotter than the "sporting" rounds that are now sold as the everyday 5.7 ammo.

The SS190 or "Duty Round" had a penetrating metal core and reached velocities closer to 2300fps although keep in mind that was coming from a rifle length barrel. This round is still legal to own for civilians.

CSDGuy
02-27-2010, 11:29 AM
The SS190 round's steel core basically makes it a better penetrator against level IIa and Level II vests. It was designed to defeat body armor. The end result, though, is that while the bullet passes through the armor, it doesn't deform much, so you're basically getting poked with a .22 cal object. Shot placement would have to be very good to get a quick stop...

doobee8
02-27-2010, 11:37 AM
Ft. Hood Shooter used and FN 5.7x28mm pistol with 30rd extended mags. V-max bullets.

CSDGuy
02-27-2010, 11:49 AM
Yep. The non SS190 bullets will expand... and since I suspect that none of the people he shot were wearing vests, I'd imagine that the vest penetration ability of the SS190 round is moot... I would also think he was double/triple tapping to better ensure good hits. The Five-7 pistol is pretty heavy and is basically just a hot .22 cal, so it should be pretty controllable.

He easily could have used something else and would have probably been just as effective as he was...

As we all know, it's not the pistol's fault... The shooter's completely 100% to blame for his actions.

J-cat
02-27-2010, 12:46 PM
Ft. Hood Shooter used and FN 5.7x28mm pistol with 30rd extended mags. V-max bullets.

Would it have made a difference if he used a 9mm?

Josh3239
02-27-2010, 12:52 PM
Brady propaganda. They claimed they were more powerful than they actually were, ATF says their claims are bogus.

CSDGuy
02-27-2010, 12:53 PM
Would it have made a difference if he used a 9mm?
Only to the mainstream media (and the Bradys). After all, they have built-up the FN Five-7 as a super-powerful assault weapon/cop/soldier killing blaster. Given that, a 9mm just seems, well, puny...

Josh3239
02-27-2010, 1:04 PM
If the 5.7 kills someone the 5.7 needs to be banned. If the 9mm kills someone the Glock needs to be banned... it doesn't matter if that 9mm is or isn't a Glock. ;)

Would it have made a difference if he used a 9mm?

B.D.Dubloon
02-27-2010, 1:24 PM
I thought it came from Mexico. Haven't the Mexicans been calling them cop killers for a long time?

hawk84
02-27-2010, 1:37 PM
in short- nothing is so deadly about the 5-7

its a gun- you shoot someone with it....you just might kill them

same as a 45. a 22. or a 30-06

nick
02-27-2010, 1:49 PM
What doesn't the Brady bunch call "cop killers"? Anything at all? That should give you the idea.

As for 5-7, some think that it accounted for the lower fatalities at Ft. Hood than would've been the case with more traditional handgun rounds. Basically, the shooter was as incompetent in his choice of a weapon as he was in his day job, so he went with the Internet hype. In other words, mall ninjas and Internet commandos saved lives :)

L4D
02-27-2010, 1:54 PM
eh the 5-7 wasn't that great in Counter-Strike.

covertcombatant
02-27-2010, 4:43 PM
Almost as deadly as a 7-11 hotdog :0) mmmmm

Flogger23m
02-27-2010, 6:11 PM
eh the 5-7 wasn't that great in Counter-Strike.

I agree. I never understood why it cost more than the Desert Eagle. :o

patriot_man
02-27-2010, 10:12 PM
The Armor Piercing variant of the round is only sold to LE/ MIL. The civilian version of the round is no more lethal then any other pistol round.

JDay
02-28-2010, 7:10 AM
They make armor piercing rounds for it (SS190, L191). You cannot purchase them however since they are classified as armor piercing by the ATF (no civilian sales). FN restricts the sale to military and law enforcement worldwide also. Other than those two rounds there is nothing special about the ammo made for it, in fact armor piercing rounds are made for other handgun calibers such as the 9mm and .45 acp. You just don't hear about it because they're not "exotic" calibers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28mm#Controversy

The Five-seven and 5.7x28mm ammunition were the subject of brief controversy in the United States shortly after they were introduced to civilian shooters.[22] It was claimed by the Brady Campaign that commercially available SS192 penetrated a Level IIA vest in testing.[36] However, armor piercing variants of the 5.7x28mm cartridge are only offered to law enforcement and military customers.[37] Commercially available variants of the 5.7x28mm cartridge are classified by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) as being not armor piercing and it was claimed that the SS192 and SS196 cartridge variants did not penetrate various types of Kevlar vests in tests conducted by FNH USA.[38]

JDay
02-28-2010, 7:14 AM
The SS190 or "Duty Round" had a penetrating metal core and reached velocities closer to 2300fps although keep in mind that was coming from a rifle length barrel. This round is still legal to own for civilians.

Not anymore since the ATF classified it as "armor piercing."

oddjob
02-28-2010, 10:39 AM
I have fired the FN full-auto (FN 90??) version that also had a suppressor on it. Very light recoil and relatively quiet.

The most "deadly" part of the FNH 57 system is the light recoil. Thats about it in my opinion.

ArkinDomino
02-28-2010, 11:16 AM
The FN 5.7 has a special ballistics tip that makes it a "heat seeking" bullet. More importantly it usually seeks out the heads of children ages 1 day-10 years old. This tech has been opposed by all because of how evil it is, I mean come on a baby gets born somewhere and somehow a stray "seeker FN 5.7 kid killa" bullet makes its way straight into the babies head... Bad times. This is why we need to ban the 5.7.

Lateralus
02-28-2010, 3:03 PM
As others have stated, the original round for the 5.7 was different that the commercially available SS190 we use. The original one still exists for LEO/MIL only, and from what I have heard it was designed to penetrate Level IIa-IIIa vests.

I agree. I never understood why it cost more than the Desert Eagle. :o

Too much money. Use a save round on USPs. Make sure you have a kit.

ldivinag
02-28-2010, 3:17 PM
eh the 5-7 wasn't that great in Counter-Strike.


the full auto P90 in NOVALOGIC'S DELTA FORCE was my preferred rifle... :)

it was a great rifle with 50 rounds.

SJgunguy24
02-28-2010, 3:33 PM
Brady propaganda. They claimed they were more powerful than they actually were, ATF says their claims are bogus.

Hype, BS, scare tactics you name it and they do it.....at least they do everything execpt tell the truth.

Shadowdrop
02-28-2010, 4:55 PM
The FN 5-7 is one of two options for U.S. Secret Service agents as far as duty pistols. The other is the .357 Sig. Just an FYI. :)

JDay
02-28-2010, 5:07 PM
As others have stated, the original round for the 5.7 was different that the commercially available SS190 we use. The original one still exists for LEO/MIL only, and from what I have heard it was designed to penetrate Level IIa-IIIa vests.

The SS190 is not commercially available. Any boxes you see for sale on Gunbroker or elsewhere were stolen from a PD or the military. It also will not penetrate a Level IIIa vest. You can however purchase the SS109 round which is practically the same thing.

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product1209.html

SS190 Duty Round

The SS190 AP ball FMJ is designated as Armor Piercing (AP) ammunition, designed to penetrate body armor. Its sale to civilians is restricted and BATF mandates that FN stores the ammunition in a bonded warehouse and releases only upon sale to law-enforcement or military purchase order. The SS190 bullet has a steel penetrator and an aluminum core. It is interesting to note that the SS109 FMJ bullet is essentially of the same design, except it uses a lead core with a steel penetrator. The SS109 is frequently found in civilian-legal M855 loads sold as surplus or contract-overrun ammunition. FN Herstal has stated that the SS190 round will easily penetrate protections that stop normal pistol rounds, but will not penetrate protections that stop the 5.56 x 45 mm NATO round such as Level IIIA armor. The SS190 has demonstrated varying penetration depths of about 10 to 13 inches in gelatin testing by various agencies. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police Academy forensics laboratory tested SS190 fired out of a P90 into 10% ordnance gelatin, 10% gelatin covered with heavy clothing, and 10% gelatin covered with Level II soft armor. The average penetration depth in all test events was approximately 10.4 inches; the temporal wound cavity did not exceed 3.75 inches. Testing of the P90 done by Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS showed an average of 12 inches penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin. Houston, TX SWAT has also done testing with similar results. Many have asserted that these figures are not deep enough, as the current FBI minimum penetration depth is 12 inches in 10% ballistic gelatin. The standard maintained by ATF is that the round is designed to fire from a pistol and civilian sales would be contrary to existing bans on armor piercing handgun ammunition.