PDA

View Full Version : The DOJ stopped by for an audit today and....


tenpercentfirearms
02-23-2010, 10:07 PM
So the DOJ stopped by for an audit today and the very first thing the agent said when he walked through the door was...

I need to see the DROS associated with 4473 #13509 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3364408&postcount=16)!!! And I mean now!

I about crapped my pants. Well except that didn't actually happen.

In fact, he looked through my paperwork and thought everything looked good. The only thing he wrote me up for and said was bad was that I ordered a handgun from Davidson's on Friday with a customer right there, Davidson's displays the serial numbers, so I started the DROS right then. He claimed due to PC 12077(b), you can't do that. He told Becky to cancel that DROS and don't do that ever again. Of course the pistol was in the shop with the Fed-Ex truck about an hour later.

So I went back and checked the PC.

12077. (a) The Department of Justice shall prescribe the form of the register and the record of electronic transfer pursuant to Section 12074.

(b)(1) For handguns, information contained in the register or record of electronic transfer shall be the date and time of sale, make of firearm, peace officer exemption status pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 12078 and the agency name, dealer waiting period exemption pursuant to subdivision (n) of Section 12078, dangerous weapons permit holder waiting period exemption pursuant to subdivision (r) of Section 12078, curio and relic waiting period exemption pursuant to subdivision (t) of Section 12078, California Firearms Dealer number issued pursuant to Section 12071, for transactions occurring prior to January 1, 2003, the purchaser's basic firearms safety certificate number issued pursuant to Sections 12805 and 12809, for transactions occurring on or after January 1, 2003, the purchaser's handgun safety certificate number issued pursuant to Article 8 (commencing with Section 12800), manufacturer's name if stamped on the firearm, model name or number, if stamped on the firearm, if applicable, serial number, other number (if more than one serial number is stamped on the firearm), any identification number or mark assigned to the firearm pursuant to Section 12092, caliber, type of firearm, if the firearm is new or used, barrel length, color of the firearm, full name of purchaser, purchaser's complete date of birth, purchaser's local address, if current address is temporary, complete permanent address of purchaser, identification of purchaser, purchaser's place of birth (state or country), purchaser's complete telephone number, purchaser's occupation, purchaser's sex, purchaser's physical description, all legal names and aliases ever used by the purchaser, yes or no answer to questions that prohibit purchase including, but not limited to, conviction of a felony as described in Section 12021 or an offense described in Section 12021.1, the purchaser's status as a person described in Section 8100 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, whether the purchaser is a person who has been adjudicated by a court to be a danger to others or found not guilty by reason of insanity, whether the purchaser is a person who has been found incompetent to stand trial or placed under conservatorship by a court pursuant to Section 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, signature of purchaser, signature of salesperson (as a witness to the purchaser's signature), salesperson's certificate of eligibility number if he or she has obtained a certificate of eligibility, name and complete address of the dealer or firm selling the firearm as shown on the dealer's license, the establishment number, if assigned, the dealer's complete business telephone number, any information required by Section 12082, any information required to determine whether or not paragraph (6) of subdivision (c) of Section 12072 applies, and a statement of the penalties for any person signing a fictitious name or address or for knowingly furnishing any incorrect information or for knowingly omitting any information required to be provided for the register.

(2) Effective January 1, 2003, the purchaser shall provide his or her right thumbprint on the register in a manner prescribed by the department. No exception to this requirement shall be permitted except by regulations adopted by the department.

(3) The firearms dealer shall record on the register or record of electronic transfer the date that the handgun is delivered.

I am not sure about you guys, but I fail to see where 12077(b) prohibits a dealer from starting a DROS without the handgun present.

Yeah no mention of piggy backing long guns on handguns. No mention of adding additional long guns. Maybe he just missed them. Either way, it does not appear they regularly troll the FFL forum in search of ammunition. Or if they do, then they weren't too concerned about the Kemasa vs. El Rojo battle on these two items.

He inspected all of my firearms. He didn't say anything about the complete ARs, the FN FS2000, the AR pistols, the Saigas. He said over all we were doing a good job.

It appears I am still in business and I won't be serving as an example of how to get shut down and arrested. At least not yet.

Honestly, over all I really liked this auditor. He was overall very straight forward, knew his firearms, and I actually had a pleasant audit. Much less stressful than the ATF, but my ATF auditors weren't that bad either. Don't let your guard down and always be cautious, but I have been through much worse days in my life. Overall I gained a little respect for the DOJ today.

freonr22
02-23-2010, 10:13 PM
I'm glad there are so many knowledgable people here to protect our rights and serve us thank you for being here

JeffM
02-23-2010, 10:15 PM
Good to see you got through your audit ok.

Who's going to pay the extra $25 for the new DROS?

tenpercentfirearms
02-23-2010, 10:16 PM
Who's going to pay the extra $25 for the new DROS?

Maybe eventually the DOJ. For now me. :D

Joe
02-23-2010, 10:18 PM
Glad you had a relatively straightforward, positive, audit

JeffM
02-23-2010, 10:22 PM
Maybe eventually the DOJ. For now me. :D

I hope so.

I think it might be prudent for FFLs to start checking the cited PC when "violations" pop up...

DOJ BOF are liars and bullies IMHO... and my experience with them has confirmed as much.

tenpercentfirearms
02-23-2010, 10:23 PM
Oh one more thing. You can't have an image of a pistol or the words pistol on your sign out front. We had a really good metal revolver that a Calgunner made for us out on our sign and we had to take it down. That is good to know because it would have sucked to have had a pistol on the sign of our new building only to take it down. I think we will do something less evil like AR15s.

hnoppenberger
02-23-2010, 10:26 PM
so let me get this straight, you had a goon come in and tell you to stop something that was on the books legal, just because he didnt like it, and your happy with the experience and now respect the brownshirts known as the doj?

JeffM
02-23-2010, 10:27 PM
Oh one more thing. You can't have an image of a pistol or the words pistol on your sign out front. We had a really good metal revolver that a Calgunner made for us out on our sign and we had to take it down. That is good to know because it would have sucked to have had a pistol on the sign of our new building only to take it down. I think we will do something less evil like AR15s.

PC?

The "PRK" in PRK Arms officially stands for "Pistols, Rifles, and Knives"... you're saying that they can't write their business name on a sign out front of the building?

I'll have to bring it up next time I'm in the shop.

PIRATE14
02-23-2010, 10:31 PM
PC?

The "PRK" in PRK Arms officially stands for "Pistols, Rifles, and Knives"... you're saying that they can't write their business name on a sign out front of the building?

I'll have to bring it up next time I'm in the shop.

It's in the PC......I'll have ta dig it up, something about pistols/handguns displayed or visible from the street....

So we have ARs on our windows.....;)

imtheomegaman
02-23-2010, 10:32 PM
so let me get this straight, you had a goon come in and tell you to stop something that was on the books legal, just because he didnt like it, and your happy with the experience and now respect the brownshirts known as the doj?

wow

ke6guj
02-23-2010, 10:39 PM
It's in the PC......I'll have ta dig it up, something about pistols/handguns displayed or visible from the street....
here it is.

12071(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:
(4) No pistol, revolver, or other firearm or imitation thereof capable of being concealed upon the person, or placard advertising the sale or other transfer thereof, shall be displayed in any part of the premises where it can readily be seen from the outside.

tenpercentfirearms
02-23-2010, 10:42 PM
so let me get this straight, you had a goon come in and tell you to stop something that was on the books legal, just because he didnt like it, and your happy with the experience and now respect the brownshirts known as the doj?

No, I didn't have a goon come in. He was a nice man. He wrote me up for a violation. If he went out on his own limb and didn't have official backing to write me up, then we will deal with that. If he is just taking orders, we will also deal with that.

I am not going to take it personal. He is doing what he thinks the penal code says is correct or at least what his bosses tell him to do. Using proper procedure, I am not going to get in his face over it in the shop in front of customers.

I have options that I can now go back and have this erased. I will be exploring those.

The DOJ/dealer relationship does not have to be combative. I urge caution and for people to keep up their guard. However, my day went fine. I will now explore corrective action. No big deal. We are just playing the game.

The PC on the pistol display thing. PC 12071(b)(1)(c)

(4) No pistol, revolver, or other firearm or imitation thereof capable of being concealed upon the person, or placard advertising the sale or other transfer thereof, shall be displayed in any part of the premises where it can readily be seen from the outside.

freonr22
02-23-2010, 10:45 PM
So that incluides beltfeeds as well

hnoppenberger
02-23-2010, 10:53 PM
You know what, im not an 01, so I really shouldnt be commenting here, but just bending over and being happy to take anything really is beyond me. This is how injustice is served, without a fight. Im glad it was not worse, and hope you can dispute what happened wrongly, and hopefully bring that to their attention so they dont go around making up laws again. I mean comon, does no one else think its rediculous government entities go around and make up their own rules as they go and then fail know the laws on the books?

tenpercentfirearms
02-23-2010, 10:56 PM
You know what, im not an 01, so I really shouldnt be commenting here, but just bending over and being happy to take anything really is beyond me. This is how injustice is served, without a fight.

You have only been here since November 2008. Go do some research on my bending over and happily taking things. You will soon feel the fool.

Not to mention your reading comprehension is lacking. I clearly stated this issue isn't finished yet. You mistake careful and wise response for submission. You won't find me going off half cocked with an auditor in my business. And maybe that is why I am a successful FFL and you might want to do more reading and less commenting.

gotgunz
02-23-2010, 11:21 PM
I can say without any reservations that the pc quoted is quite possibly the stupidest law I have ever seen, period.

Peter W Bush
02-23-2010, 11:43 PM
You have only been here since November 2008. Go do some research on my bending over and happily taking things. You will soon feel the fool.

Not to mention your reading comprehension is lacking. I clearly stated this issue isn't finished yet. You mistake careful and wise response for submission. You won't find me going off half cocked with an auditor in my business. And maybe that is why I am a successful FFL and you might want to do more reading and less commenting.

LOL what do you guys know about bringing EBRs into California????
:rolleyes:

halifax
02-24-2010, 3:45 AM
I can say without any reservations that the pc quoted is quite possibly the stupidest law I have ever seen, period.

If you are talking about the "no displaying of handguns to the public" one, I'd have to agree. Where do they come up with this stuff?

Since I work out of my house, I guess I'll need to take this out of my window :D
http://i50.tinypic.com/2n231qx.gif

PC 12071(b)(1)(c)


Quote:
(4) No pistol, revolver, or other firearm or imitation thereof capable of being concealed upon the person, or placard advertising the sale or other transfer thereof, shall be displayed in any part of the premises where it can readily be seen from the outside.

I wonder if my business cards, which have a revolver on them, is a violation of this "law" once the customer leaves with a card. Probably a stretch but you never know.


Wes, please keep us informed about the write-up and resolution. I agree that the actual statute doesn't seem to support his view.

bohoki
02-24-2010, 9:50 AM
the pc doesnt seem to ban the word "pistol" "handgun" "revolver" though only the "image" of said item

of course i wonder about ascii http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/myscrnnm/glock23.png

ooops reread guess you cant have signage of the sale or transfer of pistols

paul0660
02-24-2010, 9:58 AM
but just bending over and being happy to take anything really is beyond me

10% has said twice, or more, that it was not the time and place to have a showdown..........but he will.

JeffM
02-24-2010, 8:16 PM
Thanks ke6guj and Wes for the PC 12071(b)(1)(c) reference.

Mssr. Elegant
02-24-2010, 9:06 PM
So the DOJ stopped by for an audit today and the very first thing the agent said when he walked through the door was...

I need to see the DROS associated with 4473 #13509!!! And I mean now!
:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

nrvnqsrxk
02-24-2010, 9:16 PM
DOJ audits are scary?

bubbapug1
02-24-2010, 9:58 PM
You know what, im not an 01, so I really shouldnt be commenting here, but just bending over and being happy to take anything really is beyond me. This is how injustice is served, without a fight. Im glad it was not worse, and hope you can dispute what happened wrongly, and hopefully bring that to their attention so they dont go around making up laws again. I mean comon, does no one else think its rediculous government entities go around and make up their own rules as they go and then fail know the laws on the books?


Its easy to talk of bull fighting when your not in the ring....

jamesob
02-26-2010, 7:01 PM
Oh one more thing. You can't have an image of a pistol or the words pistol on your sign out front. We had a really good metal revolver that a Calgunner made for us out on our sign and we had to take it down. That is good to know because it would have sucked to have had a pistol on the sign of our new building only to take it down. I think we will do something less evil like AR15s.

there is a pawn shop in visalia with a sign on a wall that has ar's, pistols and shotguns, and they don't sell ar's.

rkt88edmo
02-26-2010, 7:10 PM
So the DOJ stopped by for an audit today and the very first thing the agent said when he walked through the door was...



I about crapped my pants. Well except that didn't actually happen.




So which part didn't actually happen? Did they come in and specifically ask to see that transaction right off the bat?

TKM
02-26-2010, 7:11 PM
You know what, im not an 01, so I really shouldnt be commenting here, but just bending over and being happy to take anything really is beyond me. This is how injustice is served, without a fight. Im glad it was not worse, and hope you can dispute what happened wrongly, and hopefully bring that to their attention so they dont go around making up laws again. I mean comon, does no one else think its rediculous government entities go around and make up their own rules as they go and then fail know the laws on the books?
So, what were you doing in December of '05 and the two week period thereafter?

The current state of affairs did not arise from anyone just bending over and being happy to take it. Some were moved to ride pink scooters and make other sacrifices for the common good. Do a little research before you decide to sound off again.

G17GUY
02-26-2010, 7:50 PM
You can't have an image of a pistol or the words pistol on your sign out front.

http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/543/assets/new_gun_shop__02_17_10.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0B7XE4Z9 Y6MDGTWDRJG2&Expires=1267425268&Signature=%2FkZ9hsTRl51tW3J%2BY6dG%2BwBiavQ%3D&x-s=543

:sleeping:

thedrickel
02-27-2010, 3:31 PM
There's no way the guy would know that you added long guns to a pistol DROS or extra long guns to a long gun DROS unless he cross checked the DROS's with the 4473's (or the bound book, which would be more work for him) . . . did he do that?

JeffM
02-27-2010, 9:55 PM
There's no way the guy would know that you added long guns to a pistol DROS or extra long guns to a long gun DROS unless he cross checked the DROS's with the 4473's (or the bound book, which would be more work for him) . . . did he do that?

What if an FFL were to keep the DROSs and 4473's completely separate? The DOJ has no reason to see the 4473's as they are federal documents.

Oh and:

12071(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:
(4) No pistol, revolver, or other firearm or imitation thereof capable of being concealed upon the person, or placard advertising the sale or other transfer thereof, shall be displayed in any part of the premises where it can readily be seen from the outside.

Just noticed the above in bold. It doesn't say anything about a sign outside the premise.

yzernie
03-01-2010, 9:27 PM
Wes,
Getting back to the OP of him asking for the specific DROS...since the CFLC authorization letters do not have any serial numbers on them, I wonder how and why he asked for that specific one?

tenpercentfirearms
03-02-2010, 5:36 AM
Wes,
Getting back to the OP of him asking for the specific DROS...since the CFLC authorization letters do not have any serial numbers on them, I wonder how and why he asked for that specific one?

Yzernie, it seems you missed this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3364408#post3364408) and this line, "Well except that didn't actually happen." However, after re-reading you might have thought I just didn't crap my pants. Well actually, he didn't ask for the number. It would seem the DOJ does not troll the FFL forum looking for things to do. Or possibly they do and they realize there is nothing they can do about adding long guns to a DROS or piggy backing long guns on a handgun DROS and 4473.

yzernie
03-02-2010, 9:30 AM
My bad, sorry.

evanp
03-05-2010, 8:41 PM
Maybe eventually the DOJ. For now me. :D

Only a fool would dros a handgun before having it in hand. I would have thought a dealer such as yourself would use more common sense. Looking at PC Code is no excuse. Then again this is CalGuns.:D

evanp
03-05-2010, 8:45 PM
You know what, im not an 01, so I really shouldnt be commenting here, but just bending over and being happy to take anything really is beyond me. This is how injustice is served, without a fight. Im glad it was not worse, and hope you can dispute what happened wrongly, and hopefully bring that to their attention so they dont go around making up laws again. I mean comon, does no one else think its rediculous government entities go around and make up their own rules as they go and then fail know the laws on the books?

You are not an 01 ffl so you know not of what you speek.:mad:

ke6guj
03-06-2010, 1:13 AM
Only a fool would dros a handgun before having it in hand. I would have thought a dealer such as yourself would use more common sense. Looking at PC Code is no excuse. Then again this is CalGuns.:Dwhat would be the harm in DROSing a handgun that you don't physically have in hand? As long as you have the pertinant info, you should be able to start the DROS. If there was a problem, you could either amend the DROS, or cancell it, as needed.

Turners does this all the time when they have a sale. They don't have enough firearms at the store and often sell handguns that are at the warehouse. Those handguns aren't "on hand" and are probably not even on the books of that Turners. Each Turner's location has its own FFL.

halifax
03-06-2010, 7:37 AM
Only a fool would dros a handgun before having it in hand. I would have thought a dealer such as yourself would use more common sense. Looking at PC Code is no excuse. Then again this is CalGuns.:D

I don't get it? Why is it so foolish?

ETA: OK, this was kind of joke?

FastFinger
03-08-2010, 2:07 PM
So the DOJ

He inspected all of my firearms...

Honestly, over all I really liked this auditor...

Overall I gained a little respect for the DOJ today.

Geez, get a room you two.