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CZlover
02-22-2010, 8:48 PM
Last Sunday, The Stockade in Westminster again refused to do Dros for me & another Calgunner. They simply said: " We dont do Dros on the weekends!":mad:

Is this NOT against the State & Federal Laws?

NiteQwill
02-22-2010, 8:55 PM
Illegal. I would contact the CADOJ about this issue.

NorcalGSG
02-22-2010, 8:56 PM
Not sure 'bout the laws but I'd be packing up my marbles and finding a new place to play! I think the DROS system is supposed to be open everyday from like 7am to 11pm or something like that. Probably an FFL here can correct me. Maybe the store just has a policy/only has qualified people to do DROS on weekdays? Not just any employee can do transfers, at least if they want them done properly. "dohhh! corrected before I could push the post button!"

gorenut
02-22-2010, 8:59 PM
the Stockade is notoriously known to do that. They even go as far as to send customers to other stores to tell them to DROS it there. I refuse to purchase anything from that store, I can only think of maybe one employee that has ever been helpful. Maybe me and most people I know have just had badluck with them.

Report em.

KING_PALM
02-22-2010, 8:59 PM
the guy who does the PPT's there is not in on the weekends.

its simple, it sucks but find another shop.

sumdood
02-22-2010, 9:01 PM
They do DROS on the weekends, just not PPT DROS. They want to spend the weekends doing DROS on the guns they are selling. Do I like it? No.

NiteQwill
02-22-2010, 9:21 PM
They do DROS on the weekends, just not PPT DROS. They want to spend the weekends doing DROS on the guns they are selling. Do I like it? No.

the guy who does the PPT's there is not in on the weekends.

its simple, it sucks but find another shop.

Maybe the store just has a policy/only has qualified people to do DROS on weekdays?

They agree, by law, on the condition of their FFL that they cannot turn away a PPT during their operating hours. Doing so is illegal.

Cokebottle
02-22-2010, 9:37 PM
the Stockade is notoriously known to do that. They even go as far as to send customers to other stores to tell them to DROS it there. I refuse to purchase anything from that store, I can only think of maybe one employee that has ever been helpful. Maybe me and most people I know have just had badluck with them.

Report em.
Ditto.

I went in, looked in a couple of cases. A guy asked "how's it going" or something like that. I said "Looking for something for my wife".
He said "I made that mistake once" and walked out the door and lit up a smoke.
I thought maybe he was a customer... nope... he came back in and went behind the counter. Took me another 15 minutes to actually get someone behind the counter to help... and he wasn't very helpful.

Dangerous1
02-22-2010, 9:40 PM
I've had that happen to me before at Fowlers. They even posted a sign on the door saying no PPT's on weekends or Sundays or something like that. We just went across the street to Ades and they were more than happy to help.

Otherwise, I've noticed that they (The Stockade) have really been turning customer service around. I've been in there a couple dozen times and they were always helpful. Not the cheeriest bunch of guys but helpful none the less. I know what they used to be like but they're definitely getting better. Just wish their prices were more competitive.

BillPear
02-23-2010, 8:07 AM
I've had that happen to me before at Fowlers. They even posted a sign on the door saying no PPT's on weekends or Sundays or something like that. We just went across the street to Ades and they were more than happy to help.

Otherwise, I've noticed that they (The Stockade) have really been turning customer service around. I've been in there a couple dozen times and they were always helpful. Not the cheeriest bunch of guys but helpful none the less. I know what they used to be like but they're definitely getting better. Just wish their prices were more competitive.

Fowlers and The Stockade share the same owners.

scratch
02-23-2010, 8:18 AM
Contact Bob Wickes at: http://www.fieldtimesportsandguns.com/Contact_Us.html and see what he will do.....just a thought

Bob left the Stockade and opened around the corner on Beach.

ilvwhtgrls
02-23-2010, 8:18 AM
I've had that happen to me before at Fowlers. They even posted a sign on the door saying no PPT's on weekends or Sundays or something like that. We just went across the street to Ades and they were more than happy to help.

Otherwise, I've noticed that they (The Stockade) have really been turning customer service around. I've been in there a couple dozen times and they were always helpful. Not the cheeriest bunch of guys but helpful none the less. I know what they used to be like but they're definitely getting better. Just wish their prices were more competitive.

I'd have to agree with you, their customer service is getting better. I'm not sure if it's illegal or not to refuse a PPT on the weekend but it makes sense from a business perspective. There is a fine line between customer service and letting money walk out the door. I would rather sell a gun or accessories to a customer before doing a PPT.

gorenut
02-23-2010, 8:31 AM
Contact Bob Wickes at: http://www.fieldtimesportsandguns.com/Contact_Us.html and see what he will do.....just a thought

Bob left the Stockade and opened around the corner on Beach.

Just to chime in and a heads up... admittedly Field Time is really nonresponsive on the email front, atleast from my experience. Also, their site needs to really be updated if they want to increase their new customer base.

That being said.. I've had nothing but good experiences going inside the store. They've been helpful to my friends, girlfriend, and me. I go there for ammo most of the time.

Also, totally unpaid advertising, just want to see the store do good.. they currently have 10% off all Glocks.

Rekrab
02-23-2010, 8:46 AM
I have seen the goofy PPT policy that Fowler's has. I would report 'em or check elsewhere. The only thing they're good for is gun fondling since they seem to have the best selection in town.

Field Time seemed pretty friendly when I was in there for their grand opening weekend. Otherwise, all my business is done at OC Indoor Range.

CSACANNONEER
02-23-2010, 8:55 AM
Too bad I don't know the area. I happened on The Stockade yesterday. I wandered in and spent a few bucks on powder bushings, powder and case lube. I was impressed that they were able to ask such high prices on their firearms. Too bad I didn't know where Field Time was. I would have gone there too.

Draankol
02-23-2010, 9:00 AM
Rifle Gear, they're just not open on Sundays. Other than that, though, I think they are the best FFL in OC.

NiteQwill
02-23-2010, 9:48 AM
I'd have to agree with you, their customer service is getting better. I'm not sure if it's illegal or not to refuse a PPT on the weekend but it makes sense from a business perspective. There is a fine line between customer service and letting money walk out the door. I would rather sell a gun or accessories to a customer before doing a PPT.

Once again... ILLEGAL to refuse. I suggest people print this out and hand it to the fools/criminals at The Stockade.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9
Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

1. For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
2. For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.

(PC section 12072(d))

BamBam-31
02-23-2010, 10:04 AM
Was at The Stockade this weekend. Was surprised at how extensive their inventory was, til I saw the prices. :eek:

One guy that helped me w/ bullets was friendly, the guy at the register was anything but. :shrug:

1Fastrider
02-23-2010, 10:15 AM
Went a month or so ago on a Saturday. Said none on weekends. Went to Turners. Oh well

Black Majik
02-23-2010, 10:17 AM
Went a month or so ago on a Saturday. Said none on weekends. Went to Turners. Oh well

You know it's bad when you have to resort to Turners for a PPT. :D

Rekrab
02-23-2010, 10:50 AM
Considering the friendliness of the other shops on Tustin, it doesn't surprise me at all that the Tustin Turner's is so on the ball. They must get business walking in all day.

Oddly enough, I've found certain items at Fowler's Gun Room to be considerably cheaper than things at Turner's and Wally World. And then other items are cheaper elsewhere. I've been told by reloaders you can score really good reloading deals there because they don't move their inventory very quickly and it tends to react to market changes much slower than other shops.

They don't cater to the reloaders and DIY'ers so this doesn't really come as a surprise.

ocspeedracer
02-23-2010, 12:25 PM
wow, i knew they were overpriced... they just lost another would-be customer. I'll check that place around the corner.

Beetle Bailey
02-23-2010, 2:44 PM
I was in that shop for the first time that Sunday as well (with Black Majik and BamBam-31). Huge selection of guns so if you need to buy a specific model right away, it would be a good place to check. I saw Dan Wesson CBOB, Springfield Armory 9mm 1911, blued Remington 870 Police, Wilson Combat 870, Colt SAA in all three barrel lengths, Springfield Professional, Sako TRG, and many, many others. Did not see anything OLL-related, but they seemed well stocked otherwise.

As for not doing PPT, that puts a shop in the back of the line as far as I am concerned. Although I suppose it is better that they are honest and tell you in the beginning that they won't do PPT on a weekend, rather than waste 2-3 hours of your time by stalling like another shop is notorious for doing.

socalshooting
02-23-2010, 3:24 PM
I bought a pistol here before and it was an unpleasant experience. I didn't know any better, it was the only store I know in OC. The guy behind the counter just looked at me funny when I said I wanted to buy it. I later found out that I got ripped off. That's why their inventory is always stocked, nobody buys it except for people that don't know any better.

I made the mistake of coming there again looking for ammo pouches recently. The older gentleman with an eastern european accent was helping me. He was polite at first but the stuff I was looking for was in the backside behind the counters and it was really hard to browse. He wasn't being very helpful either. There was an open walkway to it with no signs or anything that says employees only so I politely asked if I can take a closer look because it was hard to browse from where I was standing. He replies with "Yea, if you want to retrieve a bullet from your back.....................just kidding". I thought about going into a discussion between a lawful and unlawful shooting but didn't bother. Just politely declined to anything else and walked out.

Absolutely never again.

Drive past the stockade, make a left on Beach until you see a sign that says Field Time Sports and Guns...purchased a revolver there recently. They were very polite to me and my gf. She picked up a pistol as well. That 10% military discount doesn't hurt either.

Turner's in Orange is great too...had a pleasant experience there. The one in Fountain Valley wasn't so impressive.

I don't understand why people need to be rude to their customers in the stores. I thought every bad thing can be dealt with tact. It's as if they don't want you as customers.

CHS
02-23-2010, 4:43 PM
Stockade and Fowlers also both charge $35 for a DROS, when they are allowed by law to ONLY charge $25.

So for a PPT you'll be charged $45 or more, which is also illegal.

CSACANNONEER
02-23-2010, 4:51 PM
Stockade and Fowlers also both charge $35 for a DROS, when they are allowed by law to ONLY charge $25.

So for a PPT you'll be charged $45 or more, which is also illegal.

If I had known that, I would have "bought" an expensive gun from them. Filled out everything, jumped through all the hoops, etc. When it came time to pay, I would have refused to complete the transaction, made a stink and walked out saying "If you guys are breaking one law, you're probably breaking many more. I don't want to be part of a transaction that has any illegal aspects." I wonder what their other customers would have thought?

golfrj
02-23-2010, 4:54 PM
The Fowler/Stockade people need to be reported to the DOJ, they did the same to me after I specifically asked if they did PPT's on the phone, drove in from Riverside a to meet a buyer and they said Oh No Not on weekends..

I didn't make a Big Scene because the Buyer was already there but I let them know it was illegal and I would contact the DOJ on Monday, apparently DOJ needs more than one complaint to investigate as it sounds like they are still doing it.. Report Em!!!

CHS
02-23-2010, 5:20 PM
The Fowler/Stockade people need to be reported to the DOJ, they did the same to me after I specifically asked if they did PPT's on the phone, drove in from Riverside a to meet a buyer and they said Oh No Not on weekends..

I didn't make a Big Scene because the Buyer was already there but I let them know it was illegal and I would contact the DOJ on Monday, apparently DOJ needs more than one complaint to investigate as it sounds like they are still doing it.. Report Em!!!

Problem is that the DoJ just doesn't care.

Also, the PPT's are required to be done during the posted business hours on the FFL itself. Basically, what's reported to the BATFE. These are also the only hours in which BATFE or DOJ agents are allowed to show up for audits. These hours DO NOT have to be the same as the store hours. The hours they have posted to the BATFE might be something weird like Monday and Wednesday, 4pm-6pm only. Those would be the hours that they are REQUIRED to do PPT's if someone asks.

But again, the DoJ really just doesn't care about enforcing these laws at all.

IrishPirate
02-23-2010, 5:27 PM
not from the area so i can't refer you somewhere else...i'll just answer the question. yes it's illegal. You should report them and so should everyone else who is complaining about them. Why let them get away with screwing people over. If you send the message that you're not going to deal with all their BS and you're going to make them pay for breaking the law, perhaps they'll become a better place to shop. Report all the law breaking that people have said in this thread or at least go in and ask them why they think they can get away with breaking the law.

Black Majik
02-23-2010, 5:31 PM
Let me pose a question guys.

What would anyone possibly gain by reporting these folks to the DOJ? Sure, they don't like to PTT, they also overcharge for DROS, but at this point I think we'll take every gun shop we can. Don't like their practices, then vote with your wallets and boycott them. Shop elsewhere.

I don't really like Fowlers or Stockade like everyone else, but it'd be a real shame if they closed their doors. No one has as extensive stock as these guys in Orange County. It's a lose-lose situation if we report them.

BamBam-31
02-23-2010, 6:18 PM
I think the thinking is DOJ will send a "friendly" reminder about said laws w/o having to close their doors.

maschronic
02-23-2010, 6:20 PM
i don't even want to get started with them!!! don't go to the store!!

CapnHawk
02-23-2010, 7:03 PM
My Dad bought me my first firearm @ Fowler's in Orange when the store was on Glassell. Dad and Sam Fowler grew up together in the Santa Ana Canyon. When Sam ran both Fowler's and the Stockade, you got treated right and the prices were right. Too bad you can't go home again....

CodeSe7en
02-23-2010, 7:20 PM
I walked in their store and have never met anyone so arrogant about themselves and the products they sell. I figured it would be a local alternative to Turners. After I heard them speak to customers in the store I turned around and walked out. Besides arrogance, their prices were marked way up. Since then, I've been loyal to ammo bros. As my local gun shop.

momo40
02-23-2010, 7:25 PM
I went in there once to buy ammo. Their customer service sucks.

J-cat
02-23-2010, 7:31 PM
I have no problem them.

I do disagree with some of the staff's opinions, but then again many of you disagree with mine. I'm in there all the time and have never seen any arrogance.

They have high prices, but they also have high-end stuff.

I live with an understanding that you don't get something for nothing and that stores are in business to make money.

They will let you layaway a gun for almost forever as long as you keep making payments. Show me another store that does that.

Beetle Bailey
02-23-2010, 8:51 PM
Oh no! You mean I can put the Springfield Professional on layaway? :eek: :tt1:

Bill Carson
02-23-2010, 8:54 PM
What did the guy there tell me that sold me my Glock ? That I could be charged with a CCW for every round in my trunk that was inside a magazine. 6 Mags 9 round each= 54 counts of CCW without a permit. I will never buy from there again

Khram
02-23-2010, 9:35 PM
Stockade and Fowlers also both charge $35 for a DROS, when they are allowed by law to ONLY charge $25.

So for a PPT you'll be charged $45 or more, which is also illegal.

I believe you are wrong on your 1st statement. Even when buying guns from a dealers stock, I believe you can be charged more than $25 legally, Turners charges $30. I dislike this practice for various reasons. I think cost should be put in to price of gun and you should be charged just the $25 to the state.

On second statement I have paid only $35 for PPT DROS at Folwlers on weekdays when they do them.

Not defending them by any means, I dislike both stores, especially their pricing and the fact they are breaking the law with PPT policies.

zippo
02-23-2010, 9:59 PM
Let me pose a question guys.

What would anyone possibly gain by reporting these folks to the DOJ? Sure, they don't like to PTT, they also overcharge for DROS, but at this point I think we'll take every gun shop we can. Don't like their practices, then vote with your wallets and boycott them. Shop elsewhere.

I don't really like Fowlers or Stockade like everyone else, but it'd be a real shame if they closed their doors. No one has as extensive stock as these guys in Orange County. It's a lose-lose situation if we report them.

YES...just let them be what they want and if you do not like they shop DO'T GO their.

they are VERY VERY HIGH price of gun but they had some high end gun in stock, we can check it out...hold it... play with it and Buy some where else or buy online.

just let them be what they want to be, but DO't supply them with your money.

and for PPT.... Call first ...even Turner's some time will not do PPT on Weekend or they will let U wait for 1-2 hr. before they will service you.
your cellphone is your best friend for it.

Khram
02-23-2010, 10:00 PM
I personally have an aversion to rats and ratting but in these type cases I sure wish someone else would do it! I can't bring myself to do so.

Cokebottle
02-23-2010, 10:00 PM
I believe you are wrong on your 1st statement. Even when buying guns from a dealers stock, I believe you can be charged more than $25 legally, Turners charges $30.
Turners charges $30, but it is itemized on the receipt as a "dealer fee".
This is legal.
DROS itself is $25, paid to the state. None of that money goes to the dealer.

Khram
02-23-2010, 10:02 PM
Turners charges $30, but it is itemized on the receipt as a "dealer fee".
This is legal.
DROS itself is $25, paid to the state. None of that money goes to the dealer.

Yes I agree, thats how it's suppose to be done if it is done at all. I know dealers that charge an extra $10 fee over the $25 even when you are buying guns from their stock which I don't like.

Not a deal breaker for me but it can cause me to buy elsewhere, all else equal.

CHS
02-23-2010, 10:07 PM
I believe you are wrong on your 1st statement. Even when buying guns from a dealers stock, I believe you can be charged more than $25 legally, Turners charges $30. I dislike this practice for various reasons. I think cost should be put in to price of gun and you should be charged just the $25 to the state.


It is illegal for them to represent ANY dollar amount over the $25 as a "DROS" fee, or any other state fee.

Fowlers and The Stockade both charge $35 for DROS.

This is illegal.

The sad thing is, it would be legal for them to charge $25 for DROS and then tack on another $10 as a "dealer fee".

Khram
02-23-2010, 10:08 PM
I think Stockade charges like $175 for ship ins! Turners is the same too I think. I personally won't pay more than $40-50 plus $25 dros to have a gun shipped in.

Khram
02-23-2010, 10:10 PM
It is illegal for them to represent ANY dollar amount over the $25 as a "DROS" fee, or any other state fee.

Fowlers and The Stockade both charge $35 for DROS.

This is illegal.

The sad thing is, it would be legal for them to charge $25 for DROS and then tack on another $10 as a "dealer fee".

Oh I see what you mean now, I think a few other shops are breaking the law too. If you got to nickel and dime and charge over the $25 Dros on a non PPT dros, at least list it on the receipt the legal way!

Khram
02-23-2010, 10:43 PM
I have had several handguns sent to Riflegear. They charge $40 to receive it and $25 for DROS for a total of $75 !

Did you mean $65?

BamBam-31
02-23-2010, 10:51 PM
Did you mean $65?

LOL! :D

Hey, it's reloader's math. "How many jugs of 231 do I need again? Let's see....7000 divided by 4, carry the 3....hmm. I'll take all of 'em." :p

walter
02-23-2010, 11:16 PM
wow.. i never understood why anyone would overpay for a gun when they can get the exact same thing somewhere else. my LGS always has good service. once in a while they might seem mean but it's only because they tell you something something very bluntly but it's always the right info. they have the best prices in a 60mile radius and willing to do PPT anytime AND take ship ins, AND OLL. AND during the obama rush they rather keep empty cases than jack up their pricing. City Arms in Pacifica, best gun shop ever. you guys in socal sure seem to have a lot of bad shops.

jyo
02-23-2010, 11:23 PM
This is one of the last "real gun stores" in the L.A. area---wonderful stock of guns and other bits. However, if you are not there to spend money NOW, this is the sort of treatment you can expect---I don't shop there.

7.62x54R
02-24-2010, 3:16 AM
I don't really like Fowlers or Stockade like everyone else, but it'd be a real shame if they closed their doors. No one has as extensive stock as these guys in Orange County. It's a lose-lose situation if we report them.

No shame at all. Buying online gives you an extensive selection. I have nothing to lose at Fowlers or Stockade except more of my money. Ill buy online and save my money. I dont think I would ever buy a gun at Fowlers or Stockade. Id sooner shop at Turners the rest of my life.

wild_weasel
02-24-2010, 5:53 AM
While I second most of the said grievances against Fowlers and the Stockade I still buy quite a bit of product from them. Once I found a Portages’ Luger cleaning rod on the junk table at Fowlers Gun Room for $1.00, I turned around and sold it for $250.00 on eBay! Sam’s wife is still running things and my only comment is that they are still going strong while so many other stores have come and gone. Turner’s is a shadow of what it used to be back in the 80’s and 90’s for that matter and I greatly miss the Armory of Orange.

Cheers,
W-W

NiteQwill
02-24-2010, 6:33 AM
wow.. thanks for the heads up everyone..

i was so excited to buy my house and find them just a few miles away.. shopped around a little in there too.. haven't bought anything yet.. probably won't if that's how they are..

but bolsa gunsmithing nearby too!!
awesome shop, great folks.. A+ for Jason..
he's put up with some of my "mind changes"
2 gun purchases there, both very pleasant..

turners for all of their flaws.. still great people doing their best.. my experience.. half dozen or so gun purchases.. all pleasant..
A+ to sig hill, Mike G (the man), Mike ?, Pete, yah you too Robert you grumpy 'ol cuss.. and the rest of the bunch..
hahaha... wait to you see their "gunsmithing" work... that shop is not any better.

runninmike
02-24-2010, 12:05 PM
I have to share my testimony of a terrible Stockade experience...
At 1st my fiancé and I used to enjoy going into there where the workers were mostly quite polite and we bought 3 or 4 revolvers there over a few visits. The owner (Mrs Fowler) was a lady who would sometimes be there and really liked to show customers guns and my fiancé really liked the personal treatment she would share.
I had a good friend who wanted to do a ppt with me, so I recommended we go to the Stockade on our way to work. I called the Stockade and actually made an appointment to do so, my friend purposely came in late and car pooled with me, he was a busy exec at our company and had trouble breaking away, so he was excited to get it done on this particular day that we arranged 3 or 4 days earlier. We got to the Stockade, and the guys that I normally saw were courteous as usual, and 1 of them said they would get the guy who does the transfers (he was the mgr named "Joe"). "Joe" overheard his employee and rudely snapped "no transfers today-I'm busy!", we tried to explain we had made an appointment and he started shouting and even cursing-my friend said in an angry tone "fine we're done here". Joe had some smart arse comment for my pal's backside as he exited.
I stood there for a moment stunned as my pal was already out the door. I looked at the guys that usually worked with me and I just said, "I am a returning customer that recommended my friend to come here for this appt-what's up?" They both were embarrassed and apologetic and obviously afraid to speak out to their boss, I felt bad for them as I know they were a couple of retired vets doing the job for side pay. It was like an embarrassing kick in the gut since I liked all these guys- it was just that their boss was a pri*ck.
Well, late that night when I got home, "Joe" had left a message for me, and I called back, I told him who I was, and he jumped in with a seemingly begging plea for forgiveness for how he acted earlier and that he would do a transfer for either of us when ever we wanted, and I simply told him my friend went way out of his way to get there with an appt, and that he certainly wouldn't consider coming back due to our earlier treatment, and I said that I probably would not patronize either store again, and would share my story with anyone that mentions the Stockade or Fowler's. So I have shared it with this community. I have no idea why he called, but I doubt it was of his own conscience. I did actually go to Fowler's again and have seen the "Joe" there as well. I do my transfers at OCA in Lake Forest or Turner's in Tustin or Steve Pham of Fountain Valley(he is always at the OC gunshow).
Best-Mike

geeknow
02-24-2010, 12:18 PM
Not sure 'bout the laws but I'd be packing up my marbles and finding a new place to play! I think the DROS system is supposed to be open everyday from like 7am to 11pm or something like that. Probably an FFL here can correct me. Maybe the store just has a policy/only has qualified people to do DROS on weekdays? Not just any employee can do transfers, at least if they want them done properly. "dohhh! corrected before I could push the post button!"


nope...

State law trumps store policy here.

As an FFL/dealer, I am required (as part of my license) to perform a PPT anytime that I am also performing transfers.

In other words, if I am open and running DROS's, then I am also required to run PPT's.

take care,
g

Paradiddle
02-24-2010, 12:31 PM
Too bad I don't know the area. I happened on The Stockade yesterday. I wandered in and spent a few bucks on powder bushings, powder and case lube. I was impressed that they were able to ask such high prices on their firearms. Too bad I didn't know where Field Time was. I would have gone there too.

You can't find reloading supplies anywhere in the OC area but at the Stockade and Fowlers. None of the other local shops (except for Phillips Wholesale out in Pomona) carry it.

Their prices on some things are competitive (mostly rifles and shotguns) - anything black or plastic is overpriced. Some times their service is great (at Fowlers) and sometimes - not so much.

They are still better then any Turners I've been into.

dachan
02-24-2010, 12:35 PM
Once again... ILLEGAL to refuse. I suggest people print this out and hand it to the fools/criminals at The Stockade.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9

Does anyone know where in the PC does it state dealers must perform PPT's upon request?

PC12072 (d) states all PPT's must go through a dealer.

PC12082 covers the process of a PPT and maximum fees.

PC12071 covers licensing requirements for a dealer.

I can't find where any of these specifically require a dealer to perform a PPT upon request.

Stkx66
02-24-2010, 1:53 PM
I've been treated well everytime I've been to the Stockade as well as Fowlers and being relatively new to handguns they answered every question I had and believe me I had plenty across multiple visits. I ended up buying 2 pistols from the sister store, Fowlers, ( only because Fowlers had the model I wanted in the case at the time ) (Something to be said to be able to inspect the actual gun you're going to purchase.) I will continue to do business with both stores.

Paradiddle
02-24-2010, 2:31 PM
No shame at all. Buying online gives you an extensive selection. I have nothing to lose at Fowlers or Stockade except more of my money. Ill buy online and save my money. I dont think I would ever buy a gun at Fowlers or Stockade. Id sooner shop at Turners the rest of my life.

Online and then pay a local shop $60 on top of DROS to accept your shipment? You don't really save much money on an online firearm purchase.

CZlover
02-24-2010, 4:13 PM
You can't find reloading supplies anywhere in the OC area but at the Stockade and Fowlers. None of the other local shops (except for Phillips Wholesale out in Pomona) carry it.

Their prices on some things are competitive (mostly rifles and shotguns) - anything black or plastic is overpriced. Some times their service is great (at Fowlers) and sometimes - not so much.

They are still better then any Turners I've been into.

Now you can find reloading supplies @ Field Time Sports & Guns too :D...and the prices are pretty decent :)

FailedAngrMgmt
02-24-2010, 5:30 PM
Does anyone know where in the PC does it state dealers must perform PPT's upon request?

PC12072 (d) states all PPT's must go through a dealer.

PC12082 covers the process of a PPT and maximum fees.

PC12071 covers licensing requirements for a dealer.

I can't find where any of these specifically require a dealer to perform a PPT upon request.

from the link you quoted, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9



I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?

Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:

1. For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
2. For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.

(PC section 12072(d))

FailedAngrMgmt
02-24-2010, 5:41 PM
I also found this, http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12082.html

Cokebottle
02-24-2010, 7:28 PM
No shame at all. Buying online gives you an extensive selection. I have nothing to lose at Fowlers or Stockade except more of my money. Ill buy online and save my money. I dont think I would ever buy a gun at Fowlers or Stockade. Id sooner shop at Turners the rest of my life.
Yes and no.

When Turner's is the only FFL left in California, we'll all be paying $125 plus DROS for guns we buy on the internet.

Cokebottle
02-24-2010, 7:32 PM
I also found this, http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12082.html
That's the better one to go with.

The AG FAQ has a bit of FUD in it in some areas (not saying it does here, but that FAQ is not immune from having some "made up" laws and omissions).

dachan
02-24-2010, 7:49 PM
from the link you quoted, http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9


I also found this, http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12082.html

That's the better one to go with.

The AG FAQ has a bit of FUD in it in some areas (not saying it does here, but that FAQ is not immune from having some "made up" laws and omissions).

1) AG FAQ is not PC and has no relevancy in a court of law.

2) No where in PC12082 does it state a dealer cannot refuse a request to perform a PPT.

I started a thread in the FFL forum to address this question.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=273479

STAGE 2
02-24-2010, 7:51 PM
Yes and no.

When Turner's is the only FFL left in California, we'll all be paying $125 plus DROS for guns we buy on the internet.

Nah. This is just a lame excuse for criminal behavior. There will always be someone to fill the void especially if the market was as fat as that.

Cokebottle
02-24-2010, 8:02 PM
Nah. This is just a lame excuse for criminal behavior. There will always be someone to fill the void especially if the market was as fat as that.
Since it is extremely difficult to establish a "kitchen table FFL" in most cities, if everyone is buying online, then only online dealers will be left.

"fat" market? People are apparently already paying $150 for transfers... unless Turner's never does them and the price is to force people to go elsewhere.

J-cat
02-24-2010, 8:18 PM
Oh no! You mean I can put the Springfield Professional on layaway? :eek: :tt1:

Of course you can. Do it!

7.62x54R
02-24-2010, 9:21 PM
Online and then pay a local shop $60 on top of DROS to accept your shipment? You don't really save much money on an online firearm purchase.

Do the math. Both Rifle Gear and T&A I believe charge 40$ + 25$ Dros to receive a handgun. For Example (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3857719&postcount=131)

Bud's =568$ Shipped + 40$ + 25$= 633$

Field Time =620$ +8.75% tax + at least 25 dros= 699.25

SAVINGS OF 66.25$ Don't know about you but that's a lot of ammo or range fees.

dachan
02-25-2010, 10:19 AM
Does anyone know where in the PC does it state dealers must perform PPT's upon request?

PC12072 (d) states all PPT's must go through a dealer.

PC12082 covers the process of a PPT and maximum fees.

PC12071 covers licensing requirements for a dealer.

I can't find where any of these specifically require a dealer to perform a PPT upon request.

Found it, CA Code of Regulations 4033. Next time a dealer refuses to process a PPT upon request or posts limited hours, you can quote CCR 4033. Properly adopted regulations have the force of law. Just make sure your request to the dealer is in writing, contain all the terms of the transaction and be signed by the seller and buyer.


11 CCR § 4033

Cal. Admin. Code tit. 11, § 4033




BARCLAYS OFFICIAL CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS
TITLE 11. LAW
DIVISION 5. FIREARMS REGULATIONS
CHAPTER 3. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REGULATIONS ON NON-DEALER SALES OR
TRANSFERS OF FIREARMS THROUGH LICENSEES OR DEALERS AND ISSUANCE OF CERTIFICATES
OF ELIGIBILITY PURSUANT TO PENAL CODE SECTIONS 12070, 12071, 12071.1, AND 12082
ARTICLE 3. TRANSFERS
This database is current through 2/12/10 Register 2010, No. 7
§ 4033. Criteria for Processing Section 12082 Transactions.


(a) All dealers shall process a section 12082 transaction upon the request of the transferor. All such requests shall:


(1) Be in writing and contain all of the terms of the transaction, and



(2) Be signed by the transferor and the transferee.


(b) Except as otherwise provided in Penal Code section 12082, a dealer shall process a section 12082 transaction in the same manner as if it were a dealer retail sale.



Note: Authority cited: Section 12082, Penal Code. Reference: Section 12071, 12072, 12073, 12076 and 12077, Penal Code.



HISTORY

1. Change without regulatory effect renumbering section 982.1 to section 4033
filed 6-28-2006 pursuant to
section 100, title 1, California Code ofRegulations (Register 2006, No. 26).

11 CCR § 4033, 11 Search Term Begin CA ADC § 4033 Search Term End
1CAC

11 Search Term Begin CA ADC § 4033 Search Term End

END OF DOCUMENT

STAGE 2
02-25-2010, 11:12 AM
Since it is extremely difficult to establish a "kitchen table FFL" in most cities, if everyone is buying online, then only online dealers will be left.

"fat" market? People are apparently already paying $150 for transfers... unless Turner's never does them and the price is to force people to go elsewhere.

Who said anything about a kitchen table FFL? If every FFL in california closes down except turners, I'm leaving my law practice and opening up a gun store.

Its called supply and demand, and there are PLENTY of good FFL's out there. Shutting down an illegal one isnt going to make a bit of a difference.

Any gunstore who makes it harder for citizens to purchase firearms is NO friend of the 2nd amendment, period.

orangeusa
02-25-2010, 11:23 AM
+1 on that. I was holding off, but competition should fill in nicely any void left by any LGS going away.

My personal experience at Fowlers has made me grit my teeth enought times that I do NOT go there anymore. This is not the only thread about Fowlers/Stockade!!! Not even for cleaning supplies. I even bought a used rifle on CG that cost more than their new price (boy was I steamed at them at that point)!! Good riddance. Wonder where they get those register fools? Do they take a special "insensitivity course"? :)

Cokebottle
02-25-2010, 5:33 PM
Its called supply and demand, and there are PLENTY of good FFL's out there. Shutting down an illegal one isnt going to make a bit of a difference.
I agree... but I was referring to the comment "who needs them, just buy it online".

If everyone buys everything online, then there's no demand, and the local shops will close.

BamBam-31
02-25-2010, 5:45 PM
NOPE.. full boat deposit required for custom shop..

got one coming.. for 14 months!!!

expecting in March.. but who the hell is even keeping track anymore?
the manager that took my order in sig hill has already transferred to another store and back in the mean time.. wtf?!

Beetle was talking about the one we saw that day in their display case. ;)

robert101
02-25-2010, 6:29 PM
I've had not so friendly experiences at both Fowlers and Stockade. I do not accept bad customer service any more. No way - no how. I work hard for my money and I will not beg for service and accept being treated poorly. I do most of my shopping online and use them as they had used me in the past - I walk past the counters of guns to view my next desired purchase. Then I shop else where. I'm curtious and pleasent when I'm doing my walk-about shopping. So for that, they are really good.

7.62x54R
02-25-2010, 7:35 PM
I've had not so friendly experiences at both Fowlers and Stockade. I do not accept bad customer service any more. No way - no how. I work hard for my money and I will not beg for service and accept being treated poorly. I do most of my shopping online and use them as they had used me in the past - I walk past the counters of guns to view my next desired purchase. Then I shop else where. I'm curtious and pleasent when I'm doing my walk-about shopping. So for that, they are really good.

I do the same

Fobanginvtek
02-25-2010, 8:09 PM
Yeah i have bought about 2 rifles from Stockade, and it seems like they don't want business or something? They are not THAT helpful, just a little. They also dont want ANYTHING to do with AR/AK shippings.

Rob454
02-25-2010, 8:34 PM
Let me pose a question guys.

What would anyone possibly gain by reporting these folks to the DOJ? Sure, they don't like to PTT, they also overcharge for DROS, but at this point I think we'll take every gun shop we can. Don't like their practices, then vote with your wallets and boycott them. Shop elsewhere.

I don't really like Fowlers or Stockade like everyone else, but it'd be a real shame if they closed their doors. No one has as extensive stock as these guys in Orange County. It's a lose-lose situation if we report them.

It woudl be even more of a shame if you simply allow these gun store owners to do as they please. See as a FFL they are required by law to do a PPT. when they make up their own rules as to when and how they do PPTs they should be set straight. Sorry IMO as a gun store you are a RETAIL business and thus should have some semblance of customer service. Although there are a few shops that know what those words actually mean and actually have customer service there are more horror stories about this industry. Personally I say report them. When you got your FFL you kknew the game. now you dont wanna play it.



wow.. i never understood why anyone would overpay for a gun when they can get the exact same thing somewhere else. .

Because not everyone is a price savvy gun shopper.

BamBam-31
02-25-2010, 8:51 PM
Because not everyone is a price savvy gun shopper.

Usually, I try to get the best price possible. Sometimes, however, I'll pay a little more to reward places w/ good customer service. Or I'll pay the slightly higher prices at my local shop (who also happen to be a good bunch of guys) to help keep them open. Like Black Majik says, in the bigger scheme of things, it's better for all of us that way. :)

(Not saying that's the case w/ Stockade & Fowlers, btw.)

Synergy
02-25-2010, 9:03 PM
I have only dealt with Fowler's a few times in the last couple of months. I have yet to have a problem and their customer service has been good to me. They also have some firearms many stores don't stock like a Desert Tactical SRS in .338 LM, sitting open on top of the glass case.

J-cat
02-25-2010, 9:16 PM
NOPE.. full boat deposit required for custom shop..

got one coming.. for 14 months!!!

expecting in March.. but who the hell is even keeping track anymore?
the manager that took my order in sig hill has already transferred to another store and back in the mean time.. wtf?!

They have two Professionals for sale on the shelf. You can lay them away.

Fobanginvtek
02-26-2010, 12:45 AM
I agree, but I just don't think they have that much input when I come in. Seems like they just answer the question you asked, and don't add any other input or opinions. But i do agree they have a wide selection of pistols. Good place to window shop for pistols. *over priced

J-cat
02-26-2010, 8:07 AM
Hard to believe how? It has been on the shelf for months. Maybe you should visit the store instead of hypothesizing.

Black Majik
02-26-2010, 8:46 AM
It's tough to believe, but a brand new SA Pro at Fowlers and Stockade is cheaper than the used ones sold on Calguns.

The Stockade was asking $2599.

Buy buy buy!

BamBam-31
02-26-2010, 8:58 AM
I can't afford this thread....:p

Black Majik
02-26-2010, 8:59 AM
I can't afford this thread....:p

Layaway is accepted. ;)

BamBam-31
02-26-2010, 9:02 AM
(plugs ears) La la la la la....

bluebum
02-26-2010, 2:06 PM
there are so many threads that talk about stores with horrible customer service, bad policies, etc... while i do not want to pass judgment without actually having been to the stores, these threads are nonetheless effective.
to the OP and any other calgunners in the orange county area, visit OC Armory in Lake Forest or Riflegear in Costa Mesa for PPT or FFL. i personally have done at least 4 or 5 ppts at each store and have only had awesome service and experiences.

Beetle Bailey
02-26-2010, 7:58 PM
Yes, it was a real, live Springfield Armory Professional at Stockade. The price was $2599. When you come thru the front door, it's in one of the glass cases in the far corner on the right. Black Majik was with me when we both saw it just sitting there innocently. It was the FBI gun. I have shot one before, so I kinda have an idea of what it looks like.

J-Cat confirmed what we already said, although he was not in the shop at the same time we were. BamBam-31 came in the shop later that day but I don't know if he got a look at it. Doesn't really matter because he's shot one before as well.

BTW, I think that is one of the advantages of the overpriced shops. As I said, they often have some really cool stuff in stock. That selection doesn't really help you if you are looking for a Glock 17 because you can pretty much find one of those anywhere, but if it is something a bit tougher to find. . .

Anyways, hope you get the Pro and that you enjoy it.

08duramax
02-27-2010, 12:07 PM
That pro has been there for a while. It was there back in December. I almost bought it myself. That gun was tight as heck. I could barely even rack it. I think I left a couple of drool spots on it though.

Fobanginvtek
02-27-2010, 6:13 PM
there are so many threads that talk about stores with horrible customer service, bad policies, etc... while i do not want to pass judgment without actually having been to the stores, these threads are nonetheless effective.
to the OP and any other calgunners in the orange county area, visit OC Armory in Lake Forest or Riflegear in Costa Mesa for PPT or FFL. i personally have done at least 4 or 5 ppts at each store and have only had awesome service and experiences.

Yeah Riflegear are good ppl, very helpful.

BBKGARY
04-01-2010, 6:07 AM
Ive been treated w respect and courtesy whenever ive visited The Stockade, grabbed an HK usb 40, and an Acog there on seperate visits, all was well... Lip up

Rangda
04-01-2010, 10:53 AM
I have been that store to do a PPT once. It was a Friday and I called the day before to ask if they do PPT DROS in the store ( I didn't know a FFL HAVE to do PPT by law at the time). The guy over the phone say yes. But when we got there, the sales rep told us they don't do PPT if there is ONE unhelpped customer in the store.

It pissed off my buyer. And apparently he had placed an order for a pistol Stockade did not have in stock. So he told the sales rep, he will cancel his order and take both purchase else where. The sales rep change his face so quick and try to say since he was buying from the store, made him a "buying" customer. So he could go ahead and spend his time do a PPT for us.

I since then never deal anything with them again. I just don't like the shady business they were trying to pull. If any one is looking to do PPT in OC, try OC Indoor Range. Nice place to do PPT. I once finished a PPT within 15 min.

Rangda
04-01-2010, 10:54 AM
Stockade is a good place to see the gun. But I won't buy from them. Not with their price and the way they do business.

cyberhh
04-01-2010, 11:20 AM
You can't find reloading supplies anywhere in the OC area but at the Stockade and Fowlers. None of the other local shops (except for Phillips Wholesale out in Pomona) carry it.

Their prices on some things are competitive (mostly rifles and shotguns) - anything black or plastic is overpriced. Some times their service is great (at Fowlers) and sometimes - not so much.

They are still better then any Turners I've been into.

You can get reloading supplies at Field Time Sports in Westminster. I'll be buying my Dillon there before long.

Chuntsman949
04-01-2010, 11:23 AM
Field Time Sports is RIDICULOUS, I love that place. I discovered it on my way to the stockade. Thats where I am gonna by my pistol!

cyberhh
04-01-2010, 11:41 AM
I do want to remind everyone that although Field Time is priced higher than Turners I have asked and they have matched or beat Turner's price every time. I realize that Price Matching is a PITA, but if Best Buy can do it, I believe a local gun shop should be able to as well without us complaining.

My preferred locations for purchasing/PPT's are:

Field Time
Ade's
Grant Boys
RifleGear

In that order. Though I did visit OC Armory the other day and they seem to be really, really nice. Told them I was there to meet another customer about non gun business and the response was "Well that's okay too." Seemed to be a nice response for someone who was not going to buy anything that day and I will be back.

For me the decision is - how nice and professional are the people? Would I go back? and Would I buy a gun there? How is the selection of guns? How is the selection of accessories?

Field Time won my business on all counts. Good selection (though Bob's place is new and he has not received a lot of his initial orders), Great accessory selection, very good customer service (they get busy, but I have never even been witness to the normal brush off that I have seen every other shop deliver at least once), and a professional PPT process.

Ade's and Grant Boys are a close second, the locations are more convenient for me, but the selection is not as good. The people are great at both locations (Jabba is gone from Ade's - Pat can be a little short, but is hilarious when you get him talking.)

I do not have much experience with Riflegear - I just did a PPT with them last week and it was incredibly smooth. Seems like the place to go if you need a OLL/EBR in OC.

I will not go back to the Stockade (at least until I can afford a SA Pro) because the guys in the front were rude the few times I went when all I knew of was Turner's. Their selection is great and the guy in the back room with the reloading supplies was really polite, but the gun guys were total A-Holes and I do not have any desire to do business with them when I can get what I want cheaper and with a smile elsewhere.

Turner's is ok, but the people that I have met there are all too happy to spread the typical FUD.

No experience with Fowlers or Bolsa or really anywhere else.... I hear good things about T&A (and the name is awesome!)

maxima
04-01-2010, 9:37 PM
From my experience, Stockade are well stocked because almost every gun there is over priced. The staff, sigh, is just plain rude and arrogant, with no respect to customers. Buyers beware!

iSaiga
04-01-2010, 9:45 PM
Just wonder how do they stay in business for so long with this kind of customer service.

SammyL
04-02-2010, 4:45 PM
field times great store bought my mossy 500 from them back in feb and everything went great.....great pricing and great customer service very knowledgeable, as others have said great selection and very willing to help.......never spent more then a few mins in there without someone asking if i needed any help with anything...........even when i said to them just looking today and drooling over the guns......they just said no drooling on the gun showcase but the floor was fine......hahaha always feel welcomed and someone always greeting you as you walk in...great place, wished they had OLLs .......

dadoody
04-02-2010, 4:46 PM
Last Sunday, The Stockade in Westminster again refused to do Dros for me & another Calgunner. They simply said: " We dont do Dros on the weekends!":mad:

Is this NOT against the State & Federal Laws?

I swear, the people who work here and Fowler Gunroom are some of the most unfriendly staff of people to be working in this industry

Synergy
04-02-2010, 4:53 PM
I swear, the people who work here and Fowler Gunroom are some of the most unfriendly staff of people to be working in this industry

Are you on crack? I Dros'ed a CBOB at Fowler's today. I have been in the store a few times and always got good service. Meaning I know what I am looking at and what I want to fondle. I dont ask a lot of questions. Some of their prices are high, but where else in LA can you fondle a DT SRS or Barret 98 Bravo?

They are doing something right!
-At least 7-8 employees working
-About 20 customers shopping and buying.

B Strong
04-03-2010, 7:28 AM
Last Sunday, The Stockade in Westminster again refused to do Dros for me & another Calgunner. They simply said: " We dont do Dros on the weekends!":mad:

Is this NOT against the State & Federal Laws?

It's not illegal.

An FFL can set their time of operation for any purpose.

If they tell you they won't do a transfer because you're (Black, Gay, Too Old, Disabled) there's a problem but time of service is stricly up to the licensee.

Cokebottle
04-03-2010, 11:57 AM
It's not illegal.

An FFL can set their time of operation for any purpose.
They must offer PPT services during the hours of operation specified on their license.

If they are open and selling guns, they must also do PPT.
Now, if they are open and only selling ammo and accessories, but are also refusing to DROS new purchases until Monday, then that's understandable... they probably listed their hours of operation as M-F 10-5.

The way to test that would be for someone with an 03/COE to go in on a weekend and buy a C&R gun. If they can walk out the door with it that day, then the shop should be doing PPT.