PDA

View Full Version : 1911 Kaboom


bondmid003
02-22-2010, 7:19 PM
Was shooting at a range near my parents home in North Carolina this past friday with my dad where we were testing out my new G20. There was only one other gentleman on the pistol range with us that day and he was shooting a Taurus 1911. Halfway through my first magazine I looked over at the guy right before he pulled the trigger and his 1911 went boom in his hands. There was an abnormal puff of smoke, the magazine shot out of the bottom and the guy started to bleed from his face just to the right of his nose.

Needless to say I grabbed the guy some tissues to clean himself up. Then we took a look at the 1911. The magazine bottom plate had shot clean off and the internal spring was mangled to pieces. Both grips had also shattered completely (that was what most likely shot up and cut his face). The first thing I asked was if he thought it fired out of battery but he didn't think so. Well after several minutes with the RSO and range personell trying to get the gun (the slide was jammed pretty bad), they found the blown up casing inside. Sure enough the 1911 had fired out of battery and the casing was completely open on the side that had been closest to the magazine.

Unfortunately the guy was firing personal reloads and his warranty is most likely void. Just thought I would share the story to serve as a warning to check your reloads carefully.

Shiloh13
02-22-2010, 7:34 PM
Wow... glad he wasn't hurt to badly.
I have never seen a kaboom, and I hope to never see or be part of one.

Sheldon
02-22-2010, 7:59 PM
Sounds like a double charge of powder to me.

louscamaro91
02-22-2010, 8:03 PM
Taurus specifically states NOT to fire reloads in their firearms.
Sucks for the owner.
I saw a Sig P220 explode once, the guy shooting it was using 1920's thompson ammo.

gunn
02-22-2010, 8:09 PM
Taurus specifically states NOT to fire reloads in their firearms.
Sucks for the owner.
I saw a Sig P220 explode once, the guy shooting it was using 1920's thompson ammo.

I don't think there's a single gun that says "sure, shoot reloads in me" inside the manual. There's a liability issue there and the mfgs can't control the quality control of each and every reloader out there. I'd be similarly shocked if there was a printer that says "sure, use refilled cartridges with me."
-g

Sheldon
02-22-2010, 8:17 PM
The only damage may be the magazine. I had that happen once and the magazine blew out, but nothing else was harmed. Plastic guns fair far worse than all steel ones. Reloads aren't the issue. BAD reloads are.

J-cat
02-22-2010, 8:22 PM
Taurus specifically states NOT to fire reloads in their firearms.

Is there something special about Tauruses that makes them dangerous with reloads?

Grumpyoldretiredcop
02-22-2010, 8:25 PM
Is there something special about Tauruses that makes them dangerous with reloads?

No. Firearms manufacturers can't control what reloaders do, therefore aren't willing to take the liability. It's not a perfect defense, but plausible deniability.

louscamaro91
02-22-2010, 8:26 PM
I don't think there's a single gun that says "sure, shoot reloads in me" inside the manual. There's a liability issue there and the mfgs can't control the quality control of each and every reloader out there. I'd be similarly shocked if there was a printer that says "sure, use refilled cartridges with me."
-g

Try looking in a Wilson Combat manual, they even give you reload data, Nighthawk is the same way :)

Noobert
02-22-2010, 8:30 PM
The only damage may be the magazine. I had that happen once and the magazine blew out, but nothing else was harmed. Plastic guns fair far worse than all steel ones. Reloads aren't the issue. BAD reloads are.

Indeed they do fair worse...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/ZW17/howaglockworks.gif

OHOD
02-22-2010, 8:31 PM
Interesting.
I'm unfamiliar with how this occurred.

Can someone explain to me how it happens?
Fired out of battery?

louscamaro91
02-22-2010, 8:32 PM
Could have been a squib round.

Table Rock Arms
02-22-2010, 8:50 PM
Could have been a squib round.

Very easily could have been. In fact maybe that is why he looked over at him midway through his magazine. He might have heard a pop instead of a bang and looked over. Even if he didn't realize it at the time something wasn't right and thats why he looked over.

bondmid003
02-22-2010, 9:07 PM
I don't remember the specific sound I heard, but the puff of smoke was indistinguishable. I actually didn't turn my head at the noise, but actually a second or so prior to him shooting.

Fired out of battery means the Taurus was able to fire without the round not being fully seated in the chamber. If you can imagine the round was sticking out of the chamber ever so slightly and that portion wasn't supported by anything. We actually found two more of his cases after he left that bulged severely, so what we figured was they were the two rounds he fired prior to the boom. Either it was the fact it was the last round or that case was a little weaker than the others but the exploding gases were enough to rupture the bottom of the case and blow the magazine out of the bottom.

It actually looked like the gun might be ok, other than he'll have to replace the magazine and the grips

Sheldon
02-22-2010, 9:12 PM
The 1911 has a disconnector that should prevent an out of battery round from firing. If the gun is faulty and the disconnector is not doing its job then this could be the result. More likely it was an overcharged round and as the round starts to unlock the barrel and gets a little extracted the unsupported portion of the case blows out due to the high chamber pressure. The case it stuck hard in the chamber and the slide/extractor cannot pull the case out of the chamber so it will be partially unlocked and the gasses will blow down the magazine well, usually taking out the magazine or blowing the bottom out of it.

Edited to add......if the prior cases were bulged then his loads were probably on the hot side....maybe too hot. The web of the case that blew out may have been a little weaker than the other cases and gave out. Play with the high end loads and this can happen.

J-cat
02-22-2010, 9:17 PM
No. Firearms manufacturers can't control what reloaders do, therefore aren't willing to take the liability. It's not a perfect defense, but plausible deniability.

That's a given.

Table Rock Arms
02-22-2010, 9:19 PM
I don't remember the specific sound I heard, but the puff of smoke was indistinguishable. I actually didn't turn my head at the noise, but actually a second or so prior to him shooting.

Fired out of battery means the Taurus was able to fire without the round not being fully seated in the chamber. If you can imagine the round was sticking out of the chamber ever so slightly and that portion wasn't supported by anything. We actually found two more of his cases after he left that bulged severely, so what we figured was they were the two rounds he fired prior to the boom. Either it was the fact it was the last round or that case was a little weaker than the others but the exploding gases were enough to rupture the bottom of the case and blow the magazine out of the bottom.

It actually looked like the gun might be ok, other than he'll have to replace the magazine and the grips

I understand what happens if a weapon fires out of battery. The pop I was referring to was what you would have heard if the round before it were a squib, which is another reason a gun goes kaboom. One of the reasons I think it could have been a squib, is that if the gun were functioning properly it should not have fired out of battery. If there was excessive bulging on his other cases, he could have just over charged it.

bondmid003
02-22-2010, 9:20 PM
RLW, the explanation was for OHOD who asked to explain "firing out of battery"

I agree it also could have been overcharged rounds

Table Rock Arms
02-22-2010, 9:39 PM
RLW, the explanation was for OHOD who asked to explain "firing out of battery"

I agree it also could have been overcharged rounds

Understood. No matter what the cause, there is a lesson to be learned. Always wear eye protection. I couldn't tell you how many people have told me there is no reason to wear any.

bondmid003
02-22-2010, 9:44 PM
Understood. No matter what the cause, there is a lesson to be learned. Always wear eye protection. I couldn't tell you how many people have told me there is no reason to wear any.

+1, although this guy WAS wearing eye protection and the chunk of grip actually hit him below his glasses. That being said who knows if a chunk richocheted off his eye pro

cineski
02-22-2010, 9:48 PM
I'm not entirely sure, but if I had to have a kaboom, I think I'd chose a plastic rather than steel gun.

Sheldon
02-22-2010, 9:55 PM
I would rethink that if I were you. Almost every plastic pistol I have seen that had a double charge go off in it has had the frame blow apart with pieces coming off. They are were the kaboom phrase came from.

Ultimate
02-22-2010, 10:00 PM
Sounds like a double charge of powder to me.

I second that.

bubbapug1
02-22-2010, 10:10 PM
I had a kaboom on a glock 17 yesterday at a match. The brass I had loaded failed at the base and went off. The magazine was shot out the bottom, some shrapnel also exited the gun and hit my hand and face, and a fair amount of fire torched my trigger finger, but no damage was apparent to the glock.

The magazine spring was destroyed, but no rounds went off...it felt like a grenade went off in my hand...

We took the glock apart, checked all the parts, reassembled it and ran another 200 rounds through it...friggin glocks....nuts.

sqroot3
02-22-2010, 11:48 PM
out of curiosity, how many 1911s have y'all seen fire out of battery?

Notblake
02-23-2010, 12:11 AM
I think I'm going to buy a glock chambered in 10mm auto then shoot full power .40 S&W, so that if I do a double charge on accident it will just be a normal charge 10mm. hehe :D

bubbapug1
02-23-2010, 6:42 AM
Its tough to double charge a 9mm or 10mm. If your loading anywhere the max the casing won't take it as the charge fills the case full on the first charge.

My kaboom wasn't a double charge or an out of battery experiance, it was defective brass.

Fishslayer
02-23-2010, 9:00 AM
Indeed they do fair worse...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/ZW17/howaglockworks.gif

:jump:



out of curiosity, how many 1911s have y'all seen fire out of battery?

Curious about that myself. I thought hammer type semiautos couldn't do that....

SCMA-1
02-23-2010, 9:11 AM
Sounds like a double charge. I have a friend who did that "once" with his 1911. He just doesn't adequately concentrate while reloading and that's why I will never shoot any of his reloads. His double charge did the same thing; the case blew out and blew the remaining rounds, magazine internals and the floor plate right out the bottom of the grip. He also got a face full of brass; luckily he had his shooting glasses on.

lazs
02-23-2010, 9:14 AM
Not many self chuckers will fire out of battery.. Not many self chuckers support the base of the case very well.

A squib load and then another round fired right after is probly the reason. Most revolvers will be damaged but not blow up. Have seen some interesting barrel bulges.

Double or tripple charge? no gun holds up to that.

xxdabroxx
02-23-2010, 9:14 AM
:jump:

Curious about that myself. I thought hammer type semiautos couldn't do that....

It would be really tough with the 1911 design, if the slide is back a little bit and the hammer did manage to fall, the firing pin stop should absorb the hit prior to the hammer making contact with the firing pin. Stranger things have happened, but i feel it is very unlikely that is what happened in this instance. Double/ over charge seems much more likely.

SJgunguy24
02-23-2010, 9:27 AM
People need to remember that a gun is only an explosion containment device.

bondmid003
02-23-2010, 6:20 PM
The guys' PT1911 was taken apart by the RSO, not a squib round because we found the casing still in the gun with the ruptured underside

SCMA-1
02-23-2010, 6:23 PM
The guys' PT1911 was taken apart by the RSO, not a squib round because we found the casing still in the gun with the ruptured underside

Overcharge.

J-cat
02-23-2010, 6:51 PM
People need to remember that a gun is only an explosion containment device.

What takes place in the chamber is not an explosion.

sonico
02-23-2010, 7:30 PM
What takes place in the chamber is not an explosion.

Is that a semantic point or...? It's definitely an explosion, albeit a directed and controlled one...well...usually.

J-cat
02-23-2010, 7:34 PM
It is not an explosion. It is a progressive buildup of pressure and a release. An explosion is an instantaneous buildup of pressure and subsequent carnage.

A directed and controlled explosion is called a shaped charge.