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View Full Version : Open cary.... is this?


five.five-six
02-13-2010, 10:37 PM
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4133/img3518.jpg

GunNutz
02-13-2010, 10:49 PM
For the quickest draw - EVER :rolleyes:

BigDogatPlay
02-13-2010, 10:50 PM
12025 (d)(2)(f) PC...

(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed
within the meaning of this section.

I don't see anything about pockets in that sentence. :)

five.five-six
02-13-2010, 10:53 PM
the 142nd Fastest Gun in the West (http://eightysixfourhundred.vox.com/library/audio/6a00c2251d92a98fdb00e398abd4870004.html)





http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2099/img3520f.jpg

Theseus
02-13-2010, 10:57 PM
12025 (d)(2)(f) PC...



I don't see anything about pockets in that sentence. :)

12025(d)(2)(f) is not an exclusive manner, it is an example. Otherwise a thigh rig or a shoulder rig would be illegal even if open.

IIRC the jury instructions are "if the firearm and/or holster is substantially concealed" it is concealed.

ke6guj
02-13-2010, 11:00 PM
12025 (d)(2)(f) PC...



I don't see anything about pockets in that sentence. :)

that would be an example of open carry, it doesn't say that that is the only method of open carry permitted. I'd point to this part of Jim March's knife law page as an example how the same wording in another part of the PC was looked at by a judge,


(4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.
...
(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position. [Ed. note: so if it's a PC653k-legal knife, and it's carried concealed while folded, it's not "readily available" and therefore doesn't meet the "dirk or dagger definition". ONLY "dirks or daggers" need to be open-carry.]
...
25(d) Knives carried in sheaths which are worn openly suspended from the waist of the wearer are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

Most of it is pretty clear. I've added the bold to section 24; note how, in the case of folding knives, legality is "cross-tied" to PC653k.
Part 25(d) applies to "dirks or daggers" that must be open carried. It is VERY confusing in that it is an example of legal open carry, but not the only possible "recipe".

I know of one case in which a guy was at a public event in costume, and was legally open carrying a bunch of cutlery as part of the costume. Without going into details, let me say that the circumstances were appropriate and nobody was threatened in any way. He had a legally-open-carry sword, another belt knife, a belt pouch, and due to the type of jacket worn he ran out of open-carry belt "real estate". So he specially mounted his last double-edge dagger on his ankle, completely visible (not shoved down the boot or up under the pants cuff). For this, he was charged with felony concealed carry of a dirk or dagger.

The DA tried to paint 25(d) as a "waist area requirement" - but as I pointed out to his public defender, it's an example of what's legal but not a strict requirement. As a result, this guy was fully acquitted at a jury trial and has no criminal record to this day.

five.five-six
02-13-2010, 11:00 PM
well alrighty then



http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/834/motivator79500df7f3d3fa.jpg

Cokebottle
02-13-2010, 11:00 PM
the 142nd Fastest Gun in the West (http://eightysixfourhundred.vox.com/library/audio/6a00c2251d92a98fdb00e398abd4870004.html)
At least with that one he isn't going to butt-dial his trigger :p

kap
02-13-2010, 11:05 PM
well alrighty then



http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/834/motivator79500df7f3d3fa.jpg

That's some funny stuff there! LOL!

five.five-six
02-13-2010, 11:07 PM
yea, I don't have the balls for that... but the davis in the pocket holster... that's doable

BigDogatPlay
02-13-2010, 11:29 PM
12025(d)(2)(f) is not an exclusive manner, it is an example. Otherwise a thigh rig or a shoulder rig would be illegal even if open.

IIRC the jury instructions are "if the firearm and/or holster is substantially concealed" it is concealed.

Well I guess the smiley was a little too subtle.

If you want to debate jury instructions, I would argue that the pocket holster is "substantially concealed", hence not carried "openly". And while I know we could debate pocket clipped folding knives as part of it, that's just my opinion. Take it for what it is.

If one wants to OC, one should be as open about it as possible, IMO. The cowboy rig would be pretty hard to mistake... kinda cool. :)

Theseus
02-13-2010, 11:37 PM
Well I guess the smiley was a little too subtle.

If you want to debate jury instructions, I would argue that the pocket holster is "substantially concealed", hence not carried "openly". And while I know we could debate pocket clipped folding knives as part of it, that's just my opinion. Take it for what it is.

If one wants to OC, one should be as open about it as possible, IMO. The cowboy rig would be pretty hard to mistake... kinda cool. :)

Yes, the smiley was too subtle for me. Ha.

I was not trying to argue jury instructions, just provide what guidance I could. I agree that the IWB and pocket holsters are too questionable.

five.five-six
02-13-2010, 11:38 PM
I figured the pocket hostler was probably a "liner" I could clip it outside the pocket....

the problem with the SAS rig, is that it is quite probable that the average LEO would not know how to check if it was loaded or not


as I understand it, on the SAS rig, I could keep cartridges in the belt as it was designed.... right?

five.five-six
02-13-2010, 11:41 PM
Yes, the smiley was too subtle for me. Ha.

I was not trying to argue jury instructions, just provide what guidance I could. I agree that the IWB and pocket holsters are too questionable.

the problem with the IWB holster, is that if my shirt comes out, you would never know I was carrying ... without a terry pat

ke6guj
02-14-2010, 1:01 AM
. And while I know we could debate pocket clipped folding knives as part of it, that's just my opinion. Take it for what it is.
well, since there is no requirement that a folded knive be carried openly, the fact that a pocket-cilpped knive has just the clip visible is immaterial.

My375hp302
02-14-2010, 1:33 AM
What make model holster is that with the Cobra ca-380 in it? Looks like it fits good and I'm looking for one for mine.

five.five-six
02-14-2010, 8:11 AM
it's actually a davis 380 and it's more fun than a barrel of monkeys

the holster is a bianchi

SVPRApps
02-14-2010, 8:16 AM
possibly completely legal if you open carry a handgun....but pull a cable lock thru the magazine well and apply a trigger lock as well? :D

i really want to try that. there's no way i could be arrested for a double locked gun..

ALSO! no bullets or magazines on me at all...

something like this:
http://www.pmokspd.com/pclock.jpg

and like this :D
http://www.solware.co.uk/air-pistol-air-rifle/hoppes-trigger-lock.jpg







all at once going to walmart/starbucks

yelohamr
02-14-2010, 8:57 AM
What, no ankle holster with shorts?

five.five-six
02-14-2010, 9:20 AM
What, no ankle holster with shorts?

http://www.socaltrailriders.org/gallery/data/1375/Jim_Dangle.jpg

My375hp302
02-14-2010, 9:55 AM
it's actually a davis 380 and it's more fun than a barrel of monkeys

the holster is a bianchi

That's cool, it's identical to my Cobra ca-380. You got a model number for that Bianchi holster?

Southwest Chuck
02-14-2010, 10:45 AM
I would argue that the pocket holster is "substantially concealed", hence not carried "openly"......

If one wants to OC, one should be as open about it as possible, IMO. :)

^^^ This.
If one were to just Hang a thumb in your pocket, then it would be almost completely concealed.

Beelzy
02-14-2010, 4:29 PM
well alrighty then



http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/834/motivator79500df7f3d3fa.jpg

The caption "Starbuck's Coffee.......Get Some" would be more appropriate here.

:cool:

GuyW
02-14-2010, 4:50 PM
If you want to debate jury instructions, I would argue that the pocket holster is "substantially concealed", hence not carried "openly".

Wherever the actual line is for "substantial" - this example is way too risky...
.

Swatguy10_15
02-14-2010, 4:55 PM
12025 (d)(2)(f) PC...



I don't see anything about pockets in that sentence. :)

BELT Holster . Thats a pocket holster,likely a no go. :)

dunndeal
02-14-2010, 5:04 PM
In re: The two pictures posted, pocket carry and inside-belt carry,,, both GUILTY.
I'm a supporter of concealed carry for all who are legally not enjoined from doing so but, IMHO, neither of those pass the smell test.

dunndeal
02-14-2010, 5:16 PM
The caption "Starbuck's Coffee.......Get Some" would be more appropriate here.

:cool:

Howard Schultz is an American Hero, he's lived the American dream; common man becomes billionaire. How, why,, and other questions. It doesn't matter, it happened for him.
Steve Jobs, he's at the top of my list. Larry Ellison, TJ Rogers, let's go back awhile, Andrew Carnegie, JD Rockefeller,,, they're all great Americans who achieved enormous success because of the freedoms America gives to those who would create and implement new ideas.

chrisw
02-14-2010, 5:22 PM
http://www.socaltrailriders.org/gallery/data/1375/Jim_Dangle.jpg

:eek: there's something i could have gone without seeing

The Director
02-14-2010, 5:58 PM
:eek: there's something i could have gone without seeing

SFPD's finest! Maybe Laguna even. :D

gucci pilot
02-14-2010, 7:01 PM
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4133/img3518.jpg

I dunno. This guy is telling me that he is strong-side carry only. I think I can take him.

Cokebottle
02-14-2010, 7:22 PM
I dunno. This guy is telling me that he is strong-side carry only. I think I can take him.
Ya... just knock him on his right side. Once his hip is broken, he'll be an easy takedown :rolleyes:

five.five-six
02-14-2010, 9:06 PM
http://www.socaltrailriders.org/gallery/data/1375/Jim_Dangle.jpg
:eek: there's something i could have gone without seeingSFPD's finest! Maybe Laguna even. :D

http://www.polkout.com/picardfacepalm.jpg


it's lieutenant Jim Dangle

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Ted Hyder
02-15-2010, 9:31 AM
Im from New Mexico (gun laws are still pretty civilized here), and new to this site so apologies if Im posting inappropriately but:

I want to ride my dual sport to CA this summer and bring along my old Winchester 94 in a "saddle case." I like to ride off into the desert and do a little plinking before supper.

I will keep the Winnie unloaded in CA. Am I going to get pulled over and hassled? Can I ride through Natl and State Parks w/o being stopped? Am I nuts?

TH

GuyW
02-15-2010, 9:53 AM
its ilegal under federal law in any state to have a gun in a school zone that isn't locked in a case...
.

GrizzlyGuy
02-15-2010, 10:08 AM
Im from New Mexico (gun laws are still pretty civilized here), and new to this site so apologies if Im posting inappropriately but:

I want to ride my dual sport to CA this summer and bring along my old Winchester 94 in a "saddle case." I like to ride off into the desert and do a little plinking before supper.

I will keep the Winnie unloaded in CA. Am I going to get pulled over and hassled? Can I ride through Natl and State Parks w/o being stopped? Am I nuts?

GuyW is correct about the Federal Gun Free School Zones Law (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones#Law) (although having it in a locked gun rack would also comply, although I imagine you don't have such a rack on your dual sport). ;)

By the time you do your ride this summer, you will be OK in National Parks as their policies are about to change (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=266215).

As to our State Parks, see here:

Can I have a firearm in a state park? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_have_a_firearm_in_a_state_park.3F)

Theseus
02-15-2010, 10:28 AM
its ilegal under federal law in any state to have a gun in a school zone that isn't locked in a case...
.

Not quite accurate. Federal law makes it illegal to possess a firearm that "has moved in or otherwise affects interstate commerce."

IANAL, but:

Since the original GFSZ was partly declared unconstitutional because the government failed to prove that mere possession of a firearm effects interstate commerce it is practically a dead law that can likely only be enforced if you are buying, selling or transferring the firearm in a school zone.

Mulay El Raisuli
02-15-2010, 1:25 PM
the 142nd Fastest Gun in the West (http://eightysixfourhundred.vox.com/library/audio/6a00c2251d92a98fdb00e398abd4870004.html)


Thank you! I've been wanting to hear the original for years!


The Raisuli

five.five-six
02-15-2010, 3:11 PM
Thank you! I've been wanting to hear the original for years!


The Raisuli

how about these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJNV4FMpGh8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzd8utz2tts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVwFHk5E5hQ

Smokey510
02-15-2010, 7:55 PM
Is it just me or is it kinda scary to see the hammer cocked back like that? I dunno, maybe its my GLOCK ways and all where you can't even see the hammer. A long trigger pull on the first pull never bothered me.

Cokebottle
02-15-2010, 8:00 PM
Is it just me or is it kinda scary to see the hammer cocked back like that? I dunno, maybe its my GLOCK ways and all where you can't even see the hammer. A long trigger pull on the first pull never bothered me.
Cocked and locked baby... That's how the 1911 and other platforms were intended to be carried.

XD is no different, you just can't see the hammer, not sure about the Glock.
When the slide is racked, it's cocked. The grip safety prevents the pin from contacting the primer.

If anything, it's a little safer because the suicide strap on your holster goes between the hammer and the pin, so if the hammer does inadvertently drop while being carried, it won't fire.

ke6guj
02-15-2010, 8:01 PM
Is it just me or is it kinda scary to see the hammer cocked back like that? I dunno, maybe its my GLOCK ways and all where you can't even see the hammer. A long trigger pull on the first pull never bothered me.

why? If the safety it on, it is safe to carry it like that. Otherwise, you'd should carry it with an empty chamber.

GoodEyeSniper
02-15-2010, 8:03 PM
In re: The two pictures posted, pocket carry and inside-belt carry,,, both GUILTY.
I'm a supporter of concealed carry for all who are legally not enjoined from doing so but, IMHO, neither of those pass the smell test.

I agree with you that in our current legal predicament, this doesn't pass the test. HOWEVER, I believe those first pictures are valid openly carried sidearms in the true sense, and this is where we need to get legally.

Is it just me or is it kinda scary to see the hammer cocked back like that? I dunno, maybe its my GLOCK ways and all where you can't even see the hammer. A long trigger pull on the first pull never bothered me.

Just like, to plenty of the cocked and locked boys, carrying a glock with a round in the chamber and no external safety is scary. How you were born/raised/trained all plays a part.

Smokey510
02-15-2010, 8:04 PM
Cocked and locked baby... That's how the 1911 and other platforms were intended to be carried.

XD is no different, you just can't see the hammer, not sure about the Glock.
When the slide is racked, it's cocked. The grip safety prevents the pin from contacting the primer.

If anything, it's a little safer because the suicide strap on your holster goes between the hammer and the pin, so if the hammer does inadvertently drop while being carried, it won't fire.

Good to hear. My wife's Berretta automatically drops the hammer when you put it on safe. I also have a Smith and Wesson 9mm that is also like that. I guess I assumed all hand guns were like that. I like built in safeties.

Cokebottle
02-15-2010, 8:09 PM
Good to hear. My wife's Berretta automatically drops the hammer when you put it on safe. I also have a Smith and Wesson 9mm that is also like that. I guess I assumed all hand guns were like that. I like built in safeties.
Ya... SA/DA will do that. The 1911 and derivatives are SAO, so the hammer must be back before it will fire.
I think the old Colt Double-Eagle would decock on safe and run DA on the first trigger pull.

five.five-six
02-15-2010, 8:10 PM
Is it just me or is it kinda scary to see the hammer cocked back like that? I dunno, maybe its my GLOCK ways and all where you can't even see the hammer. A long trigger pull on the first pull never bothered me.

yes it is... interestingly, i shoot with a couple LEOs that work for departments that let them have a 1911,


so the story goes:

"I was having problems with a perp, then he settled down, I noticed his eyes were fixated on my 1911 with the hammer back"


I have heard similar stories several times... but with 2 safeties, i have no problem with my 1911 on my hip in condition 1

Theseus
02-15-2010, 10:25 PM
yes it is... interestingly, i shoot with a couple LEOs that work for departments that let them have a 1911,


so the story goes:

"I was having problems with a perp, then he settled down, I noticed his eyes were fixated on my 1911 with the hammer back"


I have heard similar stories several times... but with 2 safeties, i have no problem with my 1911 on my hip in condition 1

Mmmm.....Condition 1.

I know that on my XD it was almost impossible to keep it from cocking. Internal hammer, but even racking the slide back just enough to check the chamber and the hammer would set.

There were only two safeties on it, grip and trigger. I liked the idea that if I was lined up for a shot I didn't have to think about a safety.

Mulay El Raisuli
02-16-2010, 3:42 AM
how about these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJNV4FMpGh8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzd8utz2tts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVwFHk5E5hQ


Twisted! :)


The Raisuli

Twystd1
02-16-2010, 6:13 PM
Actually...
I'm Twystd

five.five-six
02-16-2010, 6:18 PM
HI Twystd :)

swhatb
02-16-2010, 8:16 PM
Can you open carry legally with an in the waist band holster? or does it fall within the meaning of the firearm being substantially covered, like by the pants!?

KylaGWolf
02-16-2010, 10:57 PM
No both of those guns are partially concealed and would be a fail on both counts.

five.five-six
02-16-2010, 11:41 PM
even the M4?