PDA

View Full Version : OLL and DA in Butte


Alex$
02-13-2010, 3:47 PM
My apologies up front, I am ill and a bit off my normal self. Had a couple conversations in a local gun store today and just had to try to get some clarity.

Young guy and his friend are looking at a .22 colt pattern rifle asked if they had any in .223, immediately there were two people professing how illegal they are in CA. You can't have an AR pattern rifle as they are illegal.

I waited until the guy and his friend were alone and said that it isn't illegal to have a rifle in .223, go to calguns.net and read up. He started talking about getting parts to make a rifle full auto so I said, check out calguns.net and I went back to buying overpriced ammo. ($15.00 for 20 7.62x39mm but that's another story)

Guy behind me while I was paying, (probably related to owner) says that .223 and OLL are illegal in Butte county and that Ramsay will bust anyone who has one. Further, he stated that you cannot buy a stripped lower in Butte county since it is illegal.

Politely as possible I stated "I appreciate your opinion sir, but I own several and have purchased them in Butte county." He said they are illegal and Ramsay will prosecute. I referred him to calguns.net and shut up since it will not go anywhere. Paid for my overpriced ammo and left.

Very frustrating.

Why am I writing this long-winded post? Aside from the cold medication I am on, I am wanting to ask this august body of fine folks about my DA in Butte County; is it FUD or is Ramsay going to prosecute anyone owning or selling OLL's?

Now don't get me wrong, I respect the FFL's right not to deal in OLL's, he had a run in with Ramsay and refuses to deal in them. So I have no ill will toward him, just was put off by the comments being passed.

hoffmang
02-13-2010, 3:49 PM
I've never heard of an OLL prosecution in Butte County. If one were to be attempted, all one would need to do is get in touch with CGF and we'll put an end to it.

-Gene

tenring
02-13-2010, 3:54 PM
How about a trip to Tehama County? We'll fix you up and our ammo is cheaper too.


...or see me at the Chico Gun show next weekend;)


Jason

Alex$
02-13-2010, 3:54 PM
Thank you for the quick response Gene, I think I need to buy another OLL for a featureless build since I have some old 30 round mags in storage.

:)

Alex$
02-13-2010, 3:56 PM
I will drop by to say hi at the gun show, I will be the one with the old firearms on my shoulder for sale. :)

I appreciate the offer, but I have a OLL friendly FFL in Chico. I will probably make my way up to your store to browse soon though.

How about a trip to Tehama County? We'll fix you up and our ammo is cheaper too.


...or see me at the Chico Gun show next weekend;)


Jason

curtisfong
02-13-2010, 4:33 PM
Why would you say anything unless you have a printed stack of flowcharts you could hand out with you?

If you dont have documentation to back it up, you may as well just keep quiet.

Spyder
02-13-2010, 4:56 PM
Safer Arms, huh? Lucky guess? Yea, I quite going there quite a while ago...

Alex$
02-13-2010, 4:59 PM
That's a great attitude, unless you have printed documentation keep silent? No thanks.

I gave up a long time ago with the store owner, he has his opinion and I respect it. What I commented on was customers getting bad information from other customers.

Why would you say anything unless you have a printed stack of flowcharts you could hand out with you?

If you dont have documentation to back it up, you may as well just keep quiet.

Alex$
02-13-2010, 5:02 PM
Safer Arms, huh? Lucky guess? Yea, I quite going there quite a while ago...

No, they are a complete waste of time. Just about anything you want to do there you can do at the Chico Rod & Gun. The only time I asked about gun transfers there I got a long lecture on how hard it is to get XXX model gun, but I can go on a waiting list and pay up front. I walked out and transfered the model gun I wanted elsewhere for less cost.

curtisfong
02-13-2010, 5:02 PM
That's a great attitude, unless you have printed documentation keep silent?

Just saying, without documentation you aren't going to have any impact. If you genuinely want to make a difference, have a stack of them handy. If everybody who said something at a range or a gun shop hand handouts with them, they could really make a difference.

Alex$
02-13-2010, 5:08 PM
Just saying, without documentation you aren't going to have any impact. If you genuinely want to make a difference, have a stack of them handy. If everybody who said something at a range or a gun shop hand handouts with them, they could really make a difference.

True, true, I do have a handful in my range bag, but I was just running in to the shop to buy 20 rounds of overpriced ammo to test fire an SKS I recently bought. The wife was driving and waiting in the car, so all I could do was comment politely that it is legal and he should go to calguns.net for clarification.

I am a cheap bastard and have not ordered referral cards either, maybe I will one day.

kf6tac
02-13-2010, 7:33 PM
Why would you say anything unless you have a printed stack of flowcharts you could hand out with you?

If you dont have documentation to back it up, you may as well just keep quiet.

If someone is convinced that the local DA will prosecute you for an OLL, chances are they won't consider a flowchart, not produced or endorsed by the DA, to be legitimate "documentation" anyway.

hoffmang
02-13-2010, 7:48 PM
If someone is convinced that the local DA will prosecute you for an OLL, chances are they won't consider a flowchart, not produced or endorsed by the DA, to be legitimate "documentation" anyway.

That's why the Orange County Sheriff's Department training memo (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf) is quite good. It points out the Flowchart as a recommended tool.

-Gene

Hozr
02-13-2010, 7:49 PM
Safer Arms. Who would have guessed? I took my OLL in there to shoot and the kid behind the counter inspected it and said no problem. I fired about 3 rounds before the manager ran out and chewed my ***. He first said I could not have it because it was illegal. After I informed him the kid at the counter inspected and cleared it and that is IS legal he just claimed it was too much power for the range.

Well which is it?

I refuse to spend money in that place unless I need to shoot. I will NOT buy ammo or anything else there, and especially no firearms. I've had them hand me guns to inspect that were already in the DROS process and sold to someone else.

The store at aftershock is no better.

B Strong
02-13-2010, 7:53 PM
That's a great attitude, unless you have printed documentation keep silent? No thanks.

I gave up a long time ago with the store owner, he has his opinion and I respect it. What I commented on was customers getting bad information from other customers.



It's like that old kid's game "telephone."

More nonsense is articulated about firearms and firearms laws in gunstores than any other location.

Alex$
02-13-2010, 8:15 PM
It's like that old kid's game "telephone."

More nonsense is articulated about firearms and firearms laws in gunstores than any other location.

Precisely why I felt compelled to tell the young guy to go to calguns.net and that a .223 IS legal in CA.

"A journey of a thousand miles..." Though I suspect we are further along than a single step.

CSACANNONEER
02-13-2010, 8:23 PM
First of all, AR patterned rifles have NEVER been illegal in California. True, many had to become RAWs but, they have never been totally illegal. Next, why the hell would you support such a store? If you want to pay too much for ammo, I'll sell you some!

Alex$
02-13-2010, 11:38 PM
Well, with all due respect, I have a range trip planned to test 4 new firearms I bought. I don't have any 7.62x39 on hand so my choices were limited.

Chico/Butte county are a bit limited on gun shops that are worth a damn, so I had to buy 20 over priced Fiocchis. Bulk order online to follow.

:)

Gregchico
02-14-2010, 8:02 AM
Funny, I thought you were talking about the short guy with bad teeth at Big 5. As I have had a very similar conversation with him about 2-3 weeks ago. Safer Arms is a big source of FUD, in my opinion.

Are are some very good FFLs around that are OLL friendly (member RHT447, Hank of H&K Ent. specifically) and you can always come down to Oroville's Clay Pit to break in your new guns and buy over priced ammo here.....

Hank Thompson
H & K Enterprises
Chico, CA 95973
(530) 893-2122

Alex$
02-14-2010, 8:13 AM
Hank treats me well, nice guy too.

Huntington's over pricing is really more akin to highway robbery. The berm at 500 meters in the pits is my friend. I just wish people would stop moving the metal plate, its a heavy haul back up the hill.

:33:

sac550
02-14-2010, 3:23 PM
That's why the Orange County Sheriff's Department training memo (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf) is quite good. It points out the Flowchart as a recommended tool.

-Gene

Looks like they copied most of their memo, verbatim, from the Sac PD memo put out over a year ago.

Good to see departments putting the info out there.

asheron2
02-15-2010, 5:12 PM
Safer Arms, huh? Lucky guess? Yea, I quite going there quite a while ago...

Bwahahahaha, i hate that store too

camsoup
02-15-2010, 5:57 PM
a little OT I know... but Safer arms has moved the handgun ammo behind the counter...because "its the law already", that was the response I recieved when I asked why they had done it already.

I informed them that it doesn't go into effect until 2011, along with the thumbprint being needed. I was flat out told I was wrong, and they would know better because they HAVE to know the laws....:chris:

Not stepping a foot in there again. .40S&W hollow points were "on sale" for 38.99 per box of 50, lame!

Ive seen plenty of AR's at Oroville, never seen anyone arrested and prosecuted for a legal OLL in Butte.

ke6guj
02-15-2010, 6:28 PM
a little OT I know... but Safer arms has moved the handgun ammo behind the counter...because "its the law already", that was the response I recieved when I asked why they had done it already.

I informed them that it doesn't go into effect until 2011, along with the thumbprint being needed. I was flat out told I was wrong, and they would know better because they HAVE to know the laws....:chris:
and they were correct about it, you were wrong. Portions of AB962 went into effect on Jan 1, 2010, and other portions don't go into effect until Feb 2011.

bakokid
02-15-2010, 6:56 PM
wow that place sounds like hell. i worked at sports authority a while back, i was the only person in the outdoors dept and gun counter. well i had to deal with the idiot management try to tell me about firearms from time to time when non of them had fired or owned any, also had to listen to the bs they fed customers while i was trying to sell. i inquired about an ar special order for a customer and got my but chewed cause they aare "illegal" 2 weeks later i quit and bought an oll at a different store. another time i asked if we could get mini 14s and was told they wouldnt sell them cause they were paramilitary. they next week we got a shipment in with 2 minis. i loved selling and dealing with the customers buying firearms but could not handle the management in that place

Fot
02-15-2010, 7:05 PM
Just my input on this.. my observations..

Safer arms has always been anti-oll

Hank Thompson is a great FFL, works out of his house.

Wouldn't surprise me if Ramsey's office tried to pressure dealers not to sale OLL ( heard that's the reason the Tackle box no longer doesn't transfers)

Most the LEO's I have talked to have a decent understanding of the law for EBR's, although most seem to think a mag lock is always needed if not registered, so a featureless build might cause some issues.

Every time I have been to the range at Oroville someone besides me will have an AK or AR and nobody bats an eye.

Alex$
02-15-2010, 8:32 PM
Just my input on this.. my observations..

Safer arms has always been anti-oll

I know someone who worked at Safer Arms, I have walked in and talked to the manager and worker-bees there a few times so I won't be going back again.

Thompson is a great FFL, works out of his house.

Hank has my vote, I currently do business with him.

Wouldn't surprise me if Ramsey's office tried to pressure dealers not to sale OLL ( heard that's the reason the Tackle box no longer doesn't transfers)

Yes, that is the reason they won't deal in them, they are also under the impression that OLLs will one day be confiscated. I don't argue, they do what they feel prudent in the environment they do business.

Most the LEO's I have talked to have a decent understanding of the law for EBR's, although most seem to think a mag lock is always needed if not registered, so a featureless build might cause some issues.

Precisely why I am planning a featureless build for my 30 round mags in storage.

Every time I have been to the range at Oroville someone besides me will have an AK or AR and nobody bats an eye.

Was there today and someone was bump firing several mag through a nice flatop build. I forgot my Allen wrenches so I could not dial in the red dot reticle I just put on my M4 pattern build.

I guess it is me just waking up to the BS, but I have had enough.

tileguy
02-15-2010, 9:46 PM
the tackle box in chico told me the exact same thing about the DA 5 or 6 months ago. i just smiled and walked out it was a girl behind the counter that day.

ldivinag
02-15-2010, 10:01 PM
Why did I read the title of this as

OLL AND IN DA BUTT?????

camsoup
02-15-2010, 10:03 PM
and they were correct about it, you were wrong. Portions of AB962 went into effect on Jan 1, 2010, and other portions don't go into effect until Feb 2011.


I don't see anything in AB962 going into effect until Feb 1st, 2011


12061. (a)

A vendor shall comply with all of the following conditions, requirements and prohibitions:

* (1) A vendor shall not permit any employee who the vendor knows or reasonably should know is a person described in Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code to handle, sell, or deliver handgun ammunition in the course and scope of his or her employment.
* (2) A vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of, offer for sale or otherwise offer to transfer ownership of, or display for sale or display for transfer of ownership of any handgun ammunition in a manner that allows that ammunition to be accessible to a purchaser or transferee without the assistance of the vendor or employee thereof.
* (3) Commencing February 1, 2011, a vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any handgun ammunition without, at the time of delivery, legibly recording the following information:

This is all I see in 962 about ammo not being accessible to customers without assistance from the vendor.....it does not say that it was effective as of 2010.

jasilva
02-15-2010, 10:12 PM
I don't see anything in AB962 going into effect until Feb 1st, 2011


12061. (a)

A vendor shall comply with all of the following conditions, requirements and prohibitions:

* (1) A vendor shall not permit any employee who the vendor knows or reasonably should know is a person described in Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code to handle, sell, or deliver handgun ammunition in the course and scope of his or her employment.
* (2) A vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of, offer for sale or otherwise offer to transfer ownership of, or display for sale or display for transfer of ownership of any handgun ammunition in a manner that allows that ammunition to be accessible to a purchaser or transferee without the assistance of the vendor or employee thereof.
* (3) Commencing February 1, 2011, a vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any handgun ammunition without, at the time of delivery, legibly recording the following information:

This is all I see in 962 about ammo not being accessible to customers without assistance from the vendor.....it does not say that it was effective as of 2010.

Unless a specific date is given as in section (3) a law goes into effect at midnight on Jan 1 of the year after it is signed. So all provisions of 962 went into effect except (3).

ke6guj
02-16-2010, 1:31 AM
I don't see anything in AB962 going into effect until Feb 1st, 2011


12061. (a)

A vendor shall comply with all of the following conditions, requirements and prohibitions:

* (1) A vendor shall not permit any employee who the vendor knows or reasonably should know is a person described in Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code to handle, sell, or deliver handgun ammunition in the course and scope of his or her employment.
* (2) A vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of, offer for sale or otherwise offer to transfer ownership of, or display for sale or display for transfer of ownership of any handgun ammunition in a manner that allows that ammunition to be accessible to a purchaser or transferee without the assistance of the vendor or employee thereof.
* (3) Commencing February 1, 2011, a vendor shall not sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any handgun ammunition without, at the time of delivery, legibly recording the following information:

This is all I see in 962 about ammo not being accessible to customers without assistance from the vendor.....it does not say that it was effective as of 2010.As jasilva mentioned, all of AB962 went into effect on Jan 1, the year after it was signed. It was signed in 2009, so it goes into effect on Jan 1, 2010 unless specifically noted in the bill. The sequestering of handgun ammo went into effect on 01-01-10. ONly the ammo logging and mail-order prohibition are specifically delayed until 02-01-11.

tenring
02-17-2010, 6:54 PM
As jasilva mentioned, all of AB962 went into effect on Jan 1, the year after it was signed. It was signed in 2009, so it goes into effect on Jan 1, 2010 unless specifically noted in the bill. The sequestering of handgun ammo went into effect on 01-01-10. ONly the ammo logging and mail-order prohibition are specifically delayed until 02-01-11.

+1:mad:

I know this thread took a left turn here, but here's DOJ's memo on the subject. We found this on their site after getting a heads-up from a trade organization...

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/2009-BOF-05.pdf

Alex$
02-17-2010, 7:11 PM
No worries on the derail of thread, any opportunity to clarify the convoluted CA gun/ammo laws is all good with me.

norcalsniper
02-24-2010, 3:35 PM
Just FYI.... most LE agencies in Butte have been given training to be able to recognize an OLL and California Legal AR's. Many of them also carry around the flowchart to help them walk through the muddy California laws. Regardless of anyone's opinion at the DA's office there will not likely be any charges being sent to them from the street level!

mk3mitch
02-24-2010, 3:44 PM
When will the FUD end? I went into my old work yesterday. The manager of the store introduced me to calguns around two years ago, and showed me his OLL's. I had no idea you could have them. I now own one. Anyway, we chat and he tells me he never shoots anymore and blah blah, then he says "be careful man, don't be surprised if you get a knock on your door soon, DOJ is serious", I'm like "dude, lose the tinfoil hat", and he is like "think what you want man, it's coming, they are gonna be at our doors before you know it taking our OLL's" haha. Some people are just paranoid I guess. :TFH:

norcalsniper
02-24-2010, 6:22 PM
Do some research on that... DOJ has actually conceded somewhat on that issue. They have made policy or law stating that no other guns will be added to the Kasler list. The reason being that if they add a gun they have to open it up to registration for those who own them. After that gun is registered as an "assault rifle" it can have all the "evil" features and they are worse off than they were before.

That is not to say they will not try to pass NEW legislation in the future though!

hoffmang
02-24-2010, 11:42 PM
The AW flowchart has been or is being adopted by most every responsible LEA.

-Gene