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hoffmang
02-12-2010, 9:24 PM
All,

The Calguns Foundation sent this letter (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/East-Palo-Alto-CGF-Ltr-2010-02-12.pdf) to East Palo Alto Police Chief Ronald Davis earlier today.

We will be closely monitoring the situation and are hopeful we can obtain a positive result for gun owners.

-Gene

Foulball
02-12-2010, 9:28 PM
Nice letter. Direct, to the point and constructive while still offering help.
+1 to Jason and CGF.

cqbdude
02-12-2010, 9:31 PM
Thank You Calguns Foundation.

My375hp302
02-12-2010, 9:38 PM
Wow! GREAT letter, I'm very interested to see how they respond. My first instinct is they are going to tell us to shove it but I hope that's not the case. There's already too much negative relations between us and LE and I would love to see this turn into a positive interaction.

trashman
02-12-2010, 9:38 PM
Nicely done, as usual. Looking forward to a positive outcome on this one.

--Neill

wildhawker
02-12-2010, 9:41 PM
Excellent letter. I'll look forward to their response, written or otherwise, with great interest.

capo
02-12-2010, 9:42 PM
LEGIT.

bodger
02-12-2010, 9:48 PM
Well done.
Especially the acknowledgment of the budget issues in EPA and the offer to expend CGF resources to
help the department with training, etc.
Very classy.
I hope the powers that be in EPA have enough class to accept this generosity as it would
benefit both LEO and the general citizenry.

oaklander
02-12-2010, 9:51 PM
I love Jason's logo, BTW. . .

:D

chris
02-12-2010, 9:55 PM
great letter. the detective should know the laws and keep comments like this to himself. again an outstanding letter. go get'em guys.

Lone_Gunman
02-12-2010, 10:02 PM
And that, my friends, is how it's done. A well written letter with a lot of muscle behind it trumps the pitchfork wielding mob.

Richie Caketown
02-12-2010, 10:05 PM
Good stuff , i cant wait to see the response

BigDogatPlay
02-12-2010, 10:06 PM
That letter is well played.

Ever since this whole thing broke I've been very torn by it. The Facebook comments, by Detective Tuason and by others (presumably LEO) are shameful to me as both a citizen and as a former LEO. I'm no saint, and said my share of stupid things over the years over drinks after watch, but nothing like that.

That the detective is also, apparently, a CGN member makes his Facebook comments all the more troubling as they are, on face, grossly hypocritical.

I don't expect him to be fired. Conduct unbecoming it was to be sure, but that's most often just "a vacation" to turn the detective's own phrase. But he, and his superiors, have to realize that he has (as was pointed out elsewhere) tainted himself forever more. I hope for his sake, and for the sake of the people of EPA, that he tosses in his papers and finds a different career path even if it's elsewhere in city government. One cop to another... he does not belong in law enforcement, pure and plain.

But I also hope that Chief Davis and the council will sack up on this and take CGF's generous offer to build a bridge to replace the one that Detective Tuason so carelessly and shamelessly burned down.

aplinker
02-12-2010, 10:17 PM
Very well done.

383green
02-12-2010, 10:19 PM
And that, my friends, is how it's done. A well written letter with a lot of muscle behind it trumps the pitchfork wielding mob.

That's pretty much what I thought after reading this letter, but you worded it better than I would have. :thumbsup:

ke6guj
02-12-2010, 10:22 PM
I love Jason's logo, BTW. . .

:D

Yah, I didn't know that he was one of "those" Davis'es when I first heard about him at TMLLP. Once you know that, the logo makes perfect sense.

jmzhwells
02-12-2010, 10:23 PM
I hate EPA, the worst place ever!!

Alaric
02-12-2010, 10:24 PM
Excellent letter.

My only concern is that it may just be ignored.

Is this letter being circulated to any media outlets with a press release explaining the overall issue as well? Just a thought that is might help keep it from being conveniently "overlooked" by the department.

nobody_special
02-12-2010, 10:25 PM
Very well written - understanding, helpful but with backbone. Thanks CGF and Jason Davis!

oaklander
02-12-2010, 10:25 PM
In the other thread, Gene has implied what will happen if the letter is ignored.

Excellent letter.

My only concern is that it may just be ignored.

Is this letter being circulated to any media outlets with a press release explaining the overall issue as well? Just a thought that is might help keep it from being conveniently "overlooked" by the department.

hoffmang
02-12-2010, 10:26 PM
My only concern is that it may just be ignored.


EPA ignores that letter at its peril.

-Gene

pitchbaby
02-12-2010, 10:31 PM
The pen is mightier than the sword... also Gene's side arm..... ;)

Alaric
02-12-2010, 10:35 PM
In the other thread, Gene has implied what will happen if the letter is ignored.

Seeing as how San Mateo County likely has at least one LEA official monitoring this board now, it would likely to be superfluous to release it to a paper anyway.

Rally Dave
02-12-2010, 10:40 PM
Bravo, bravo!!

twotap
02-12-2010, 10:41 PM
Exellent letter.
Hope they take it as serious as we do.

Eddie1965
02-12-2010, 10:43 PM
Great letter.

CCWFacts
02-12-2010, 10:52 PM
great letter. the detective should know the laws and keep comments like this to himself. again an outstanding letter. go get'em guys.

What worries me most about this detective is not what he said, but that he got past their employment screening, psyche eval in particular. No one should joke about shooting a compliant person who is laying on the ground and not resisting. It's not a joke. It's not a thought that should occur to anyone who is entrusted with a gun. They need to correct not only their training, but also their employment screening.

steadyrock
02-12-2010, 11:16 PM
Very, very nice. I am watching this one closely.

aplinker
02-12-2010, 11:16 PM
What worries me most about this detective is not what he said, but that he got past their employment screening, psyche eval in particular. No one should joke about shooting a compliant person who is laying on the ground and not resisting. It's not a joke. It's not a thought that should occur to anyone who is entrusted with a gun. They need to correct not only their training, but also their employment screening.

I disagree.

I know plenty of sane, good people who make lots of off-handed jokes and comments about vile, horrible, evil, wrong and disgusting things for the sake of a laugh.

battleship
02-12-2010, 11:19 PM
Great letter, hopefully something good will come of it.

CABilly
02-12-2010, 11:20 PM
I'd like to see a PS quoting Rod's CCW comment and asking what the department's issuance policy is, and why an officer who is not the CLEO would know that no one has a chance of ever getting a CCW permit.

oaklander
02-12-2010, 11:31 PM
When someone, who is in a position of state-enforced power, "jokes" in public, and in writing, about depriving law-abiding citizens of a constitutional right, we have a problem.

What if he had said, "let's just take all those peace protesters, prone 'em out, and if one of them moves, two weeks off?"

I disagree.

I know plenty of sane, good people who make lots of off-handed jokes and comments about vile, horrible, evil, wrong and disgusting things for the sake of a laugh.

abusalim81
02-12-2010, 11:43 PM
Great job guys... Happy to be on the same team!

7x57
02-12-2010, 11:58 PM
EPA ignores that letter at its peril.


OK, Gene, I have to know. Were you able to type that without breaking into a loud "bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha!" afterwards? :D

7x57

bden
02-13-2010, 12:03 AM
This is why I love Calguns. Keep up the awesome and constructive work.

Steyr_223
02-13-2010, 12:16 AM
Very nice.

oops
02-13-2010, 12:16 AM
well done.

Whiskey84
02-13-2010, 12:29 AM
Awesome letter. Well done!

Theseus
02-13-2010, 12:32 AM
Well written letter. I hope the officer gets what he needs, and I don't mean that in a way that suggests any ill will.

quick draw mcgraw
02-13-2010, 12:38 AM
Great letter. Very happy to see this being pursued in such a professional manner and I hope that this ugly incident will end up as a positive lesson for all law enforcement agencies to learn from.

Cokebottle
02-13-2010, 12:58 AM
What worries me most about this detective is not what he said, but that he got past their employment screening, psyche eval in particular.
How long has he been on the force?
Attitudes change over time, and people can become jaded and cynical.

He may very well have been a "good guy" when he was hired 5, 10, or 25 years ago.


I just hope the Chief gets to page 2... particularly the last paragraph. It's a great letter and offers help with the solution.

pullnshoot25
02-13-2010, 2:19 AM
Hot damn. You guys make me proud to be a Californian.

B Strong
02-13-2010, 6:35 AM
Great letter, now let's watch how this is spun.

Invisible_Dave
02-13-2010, 7:12 AM
The problem with Facebook is that people still have the mindset they are "typing a note to their friend" without acknowledging the entire world can also see it. How many times have all of us said something as "exaggerated humor" or for shock value to get a laugh at a party? The other night at a get together i told my wife "I'm going to punch you in the face." The people at the party know me, know my personality, know my beliefs, know my values, know the context of the conversation, and found it funny. The fact that I would never lay a hand on my wife made for an ironic joke. That being said, if I would have posted that on facebook, left it to others to read with their own inner voice and inflection, people would think I'm a jerk. (I may be but thats a side issue)
The detective was wrong for what he posted. I think a retraction and apology is required. I do feel that an "off with his head approach" some people took when this story broke is severe as we don't know what the guys true feelings are with an out of context quote. Finally, be careful what you post on your own facebook/twitter/myspace/etc pages. This problem is only going to grow as more generations get on social networking sites.

Forever-A-Soldier
02-13-2010, 7:27 AM
Excellent job CGF!!! Keep up the good work!

F.A.S. Out

putput
02-13-2010, 7:37 AM
**sigh** Returns tar and feathers to shed while cooler heads prevail **sigh**

PatriotnMore
02-13-2010, 8:13 AM
Good job.

Roadrunner
02-13-2010, 8:21 AM
As everyone else is hoping that this becomes a positive, I do as well. But I can't help but think of the overall attitude among police in general who want to keep the law abiding citizen disarmed.

As I'm writing this, I'm thinking of the current Orange County Sheriff's antigun position, the fact that Vallejo discourages people from being armed, Oakland's antigun laws, California's overwhelming list of laws, as compared to other states, and the fact that police, if they truly wanted to, could be the tipping point to California getting shall issue. It doesn't take a genius to see that shall issue has worked well in 80% of the United States, and it doesn't take someone with a PhD to do the research and discover, if they don't already know, that 80% of the United States is shall issue. For a city like Vallejo to tell everyone not to arm themselves, and for a cop to make outrageous statements like Tuason's, just makes them look foolish, and uninformed. Ron Davis, the EPA police chief seems to think that law abiding citizens makes it tough to tell the good guys from the bad guys, yet Miami, Florida had a tough go of it with violent crime before Florida enacted its shall issue laws. The antis in California continue to come up with excuses to create more gun laws, but it seems that for every excuse they come up with, there is an example outside of California where their concerns are absolutely unfounded. It also seems apparent to me that the politicians and police choose not to do the research and rely on LCAV, and the Brady's propaganda for their sole sources of information regarding firearms and violence. Since Gene has offered the services of Calguns, and a group of Pro2A police, to help get EPA up to speed on the reality of citizens with guns, it would seem appropriate to include this kind of historic information in their training.

Personally, I don't want to fan the flames in this issue, but if keeping this kindling, is that catalyst that brings about shall issue, then I'm all for whatever it takes to get it done including ruffling the feathers of cops who want to keep a strangle hold on the second amendment in California.

pullnshoot25
02-13-2010, 8:28 AM
The problem with Facebook is that people still have the mindset they are "typing a note to their friend" without acknowledging the entire world can also see it. How many times have all of us said something as "exaggerated humor" or for shock value to get a laugh at a party? The other night at a get together i told my wife "I'm going to punch you in the face." The people at the party know me, know my personality, know my beliefs, know my values, know the context of the conversation, and found it funny. The fact that I would never lay a hand on my wife made for an ironic joke. That being said, if I would have posted that on facebook, left it to others to read with their own inner voice and inflection, people would think I'm a jerk. (I may be but thats a side issue)
The detective was wrong for what he posted. I think a retraction and apology is required. I do feel that an "off with his head approach" some people took when this story broke is severe as we don't know what the guys true feelings are with an out of context quote. Finally, be careful what you post on your own facebook/twitter/myspace/etc pages. This problem is only going to grow as more generations get on social networking sites.

Trust me, you will see things little differently when you are looking down the looong barrel of an AR-15 that is about to rape you of life and limb.

If I were to say anything like that, I would be quickly arrested.

May heads roll.

Sick Boy
02-13-2010, 8:36 AM
Wow, excellent letter.

Awaiting their positive reply.

ChuckBooty
02-13-2010, 8:45 AM
Agreed...this is a great and professional letter. It can only increase CGF's power and influence. +1 for the CGF...donation inbound!

GrizzlyGuy
02-13-2010, 8:51 AM
That is a well-crafted letter and the call to action is perfect: EPA needs to immediately contain this instance of the problem, and quickly implement a long term corrective action so that the problem can never occur again. Additional training and policy review/change is the proper implementation of the corrective action. That is really no different from how a severe problem would be handled in the private sector. This was demanded by CGF, and an apology was only requested, which is appropriate.

IMHO, how EPA chooses to discipline this particular detective for this particular incident is largely immaterial. It is at least possible that he knows he screwed up and sincerely wants to make amends. In that case, the 'lemon could be transformed into lemonade', and he could potentially take the lead in being the department's expert on open carry and firearms laws in general. Rehabilitation can sometimes lead to an exceptional level of passion for doing the opposite (right) thing.

Yes, that last part may be overly optimistic, but dark clouds, silver linings, lemons/lemonade, etc. are fun to contemplate. :)

GunNutz
02-13-2010, 8:54 AM
plato or plomo

M. D. Van Norman
02-13-2010, 9:00 AM
I’m sure the chief and his staff will have a nice little chuckle.

While I certainly appreciate all the uproar over the officer’s unprofessional comments, I can’t help but fear that we are wasting our efforts here. The question is one of power and behavior (or misbehavior, as the case may be). As long as the police have certain misplaced powers, bad behavior will persist.

We have to keep our eyes on the prize. Our ultimate goal should be to make it so that weapons are no concern of our police officers, except when a weapon is actually being used as a direct threat against the officers or the public. Weapons have to be removed as an a priori reason for law-enforcement involvement.

Only when the misplaced power is taken away will the behavior change.

GaryV
02-13-2010, 9:18 AM
What if he had said, "let's just take all those peace protesters, prone 'em out, and if one of them moves, two weeks off?"

Worse has been said about peace protesters, by a much more prominent public official, in California, without any negative repercussions.

The problem that the police chief had better worry about here is that if this detective, or potentially any other EPA LEO, is now involved in a shooting, this is going to come back to bite them big time. If they don't respond fairly strongly to distance themselves from this, and correct their officers' attitudes, it'll be difficult to win in court against a perception that they are tacitly condoning an attitude of "if you don't like 'em, shoot 'em; you can get away with it because you're a cop" among their officers. Taking Calguns up on their offer would be just about the best way they could protect themselves from that.

CitaDeL
02-13-2010, 9:29 AM
Nice letter, save one line.


As the Chief of Police, you know it is your duty to serve and protect.

While the Chief and other officers have a duty to serve the community on the basis that is part of the scope of their duties in the course of their employment, police have no duty or obligation to provide protection for individuals. (Warren v D.C. 1981)

dantodd
02-13-2010, 10:20 AM
While the Chief and other officers have a duty to serve the community on the basis that is part of the scope of their duties in the course of their employment, police have no duty or obligation to provide protection for individuals. (Warren v D.C. 1981)

They do have a duty to protect the community. There was no assertion in the letter that the duty to protect was toward any individual.

(You can safely assume that Warren is a pretty well known and understood case in these parts. do a search for it on the forum, it is mentioned quite regularly.)

just4fun63
02-13-2010, 10:50 AM
As everyone else is hoping that this becomes a positive, I do as well. But I can't help but think of the overall attitude among police in general who want to keep the law abiding citizen disarmed.



I think this is an overly broad statement. It does seem to be a prevalent attitude in LE management in larger cities but is quite the opposite in smaller communities and rural areas.
I was recently talking to a high ranking police official about the open carry issue, his main complaint was it caused him to have to expend resources dealing with panicky sheeple that see the open carriers and call in "man with a gun" in such a way as to make it seem that there is a public danger occurring. Police resources are limited and these calls tie up his officers who need to be dealing with real calls.

I hope that detective get some "time on the beach" with no pay and the Department gets some good training.

Fyathyrio
02-13-2010, 1:25 PM
And that, my friends, is how it's done. A well written letter with a lot of muscle behind it trumps the pitchfork wielding mob.
While I agree with you that it's a well written letter and will hopefully promote the desired change in EPA...seems like it's more fun to be part of the pitchfork wielding mob judging by the activity level of the other thread. They haven't even gotten around to lighting the torches yet, then it's really gonna be a party. Unfortunately logic and reason usually fail to affect decisions made on emotional grounds.

bodger
02-13-2010, 1:29 PM
And that, my friends, is how it's done. A well written letter with a lot of muscle behind it trumps the pitchfork wielding mob.


Assuming Frankenstein can read, of course. :D

yelohamr
02-13-2010, 1:35 PM
Great letter. Buy that man a beer.

freonr22
02-13-2010, 1:36 PM
To facilitate corrective action in light of the current budgeting issues faced by the City, The
Calguns Foundation is willing to furnish its own resources, which include the use of trained law
enforcement officers, experienced firearms rights attorneys, training materials, and guides to the
City free of charge. The Chairman of The Calguns Foundation, Inc., Mr. Gene Hoffman, is
willing to meet with you to further discuss the details of the proposed assistance./end quote


this is just outstanding. If you cannot afford to do it on your own, we will take care of it for you.... EPIC

Roadrunner
02-13-2010, 3:59 PM
I think this is an overly broad statement. It does seem to be a prevalent attitude in LE management in larger cities but is quite the opposite in smaller communities and rural areas.
I was recently talking to a high ranking police official about the open carry issue, his main complaint was it caused him to have to expend resources dealing with panicky sheeple that see the open carriers and call in "man with a gun" in such a way as to make it seem that there is a public danger occurring. Police resources are limited and these calls tie up his officers who need to be dealing with real calls.

I hope that detective get some "time on the beach" with no pay and the Department gets some good training.

So, what your saying is that the rural cops are bugged by the UOCers, but not panicking. I can appreciate that. However, even rural cops like Adam Christianson (Stanislaus County Sheriff) have CCW policies (http://www.stanislaussheriff.com/forms/pdf/records/SCSD%20Policy%20for%20Permits%20to%20Carry%20Conce aled%20Weapons.pdf) that aren't exactly friendly toward the average citizen. Unfortunately, his idea of good cause is a person who is in greater peril of victimization than the average person. However, while they're assessing your good cause, it might be too late. So, while they may not be freaking out, they are still very stingy with handing out the CCW's. And that's my main point.

NorCal MedTac
02-13-2010, 4:02 PM
No one should joke about shooting a compliant person who is laying on the ground and not resisting. It's not a joke. It's not a thought that should occur to anyone who is entrusted with a gun.

How many threads on this very board have stupid comments like that in regards to those they percieve as criminals. Not saying I don't understand the sentiment when people do but it still is not responsible for those that take on the responsibility of being a gun owner.

However, great letter and donation inbound.

Ding126
02-13-2010, 5:57 PM
Excellent

Cokebottle
02-13-2010, 7:11 PM
How many threads on this very board have stupid comments like that in regards to those they percieve as criminals.
Most members on this board are not speaking as representatives of an LEA.
For the most part, those who are LEOs are pretty reserved in their statements. They may make comments that seem to indicate that they might be prone to a civil rights violation or two, but I've never seen one threaten excessive force.

This detective, while posting on his personal Facebook page, was speaking as a cop, about cop duties and situations. He wasn't speaking as "Joe Schmoe" BSing about plinking on BLM land.
If he had said something about getting drunk and shooting at Joshua Trees, I'd think "what an a-hole", but I wouldn't take the opinion that the entire department has an attitude problem.

aplinker
02-13-2010, 7:51 PM
When someone, who is in a position of state-enforced power, "jokes" in public, and in writing, about depriving law-abiding citizens of a constitutional right, we have a problem.

What if he had said, "let's just take all those peace protesters, prone 'em out, and if one of them moves, two weeks off?"

I'm not disagreeing in the least and that wasn't my point. It's what's in red that makes this an issue - and it should be.

I'm solely making the obvious point that a few comments are not a complete picture of a person or their beliefs, nor are they summary judgment of an organization.

I've often said it's not the mistakes one makes, but how someone deals with those mistakes that defines their true nature. I think we'll learn shortly about EPAPD in their response to this letter. I'm not particularly sanguine.

The problem with Facebook is that people still have the mindset they are "typing a note to their friend" without acknowledging the entire world can also see it. How many times have all of us said something as "exaggerated humor" or for shock value to get a laugh at a party? The other night at a get together i told my wife "I'm going to punch you in the face." The people at the party know me, know my personality, know my beliefs, know my values, know the context of the conversation, and found it funny. The fact that I would never lay a hand on my wife made for an ironic joke. That being said, if I would have posted that on facebook, left it to others to read with their own inner voice and inflection, people would think I'm a jerk. (I may be but thats a side issue)
The detective was wrong for what he posted. I think a retraction and apology is required. I do feel that an "off with his head approach" some people took when this story broke is severe as we don't know what the guys true feelings are with an out of context quote. Finally, be careful what you post on your own facebook/twitter/myspace/etc pages. This problem is only going to grow as more generations get on social networking sites.

I think we see some generational differences in response already.

BigJB
02-13-2010, 7:58 PM
This is one of the many reasons why Calguns will get some $$$ love from me as soon as I am on my feet again.

CCWFacts
02-13-2010, 10:34 PM
They do have a duty to protect the community. There was no assertion in the letter that the duty to protect was toward any individual.

I'm curious, what does it mean to "protect the community"? Do they really have a duty for it?

How many threads on this very board have stupid comments like that in regards to those they percieve as criminals. Not saying I don't understand the sentiment when people do but it still is not responsible for those that take on the responsibility of being a gun owner.

Absolutely right. You see a lot of people say really stupid things on these boards like, "if I found someone in my house, it would be shoot, shovel and shutup", referring to criminal perpetrators as "goblins", making statements about "he can't sue you if he's dead" and similar types of statements.

IT IS EXTREMELY FOOLISH AND IRRESPONSIBLE TO MAKE STATEMENTS LIKE THAT! If someone posts something like that, and that person is later involved in a self-defense shooting, you can be sure that a DA, or a civil attorney, will be looking for those statements and will be reading them in court! Those statements are liability bombs with no expiration. It's just as stupid for us non-LEO gun owners to say that as it is for this officer to say it. This particular officer is now going to be a major liability risk for his dept for a long long time, just like any gun owner who says something like "shoot shovel and shutup" has exposed himself to a heap of liability for a long long time.

And it's not just "I shouldn't say it because I don't want to get caught". It's stupid to have that attitude even if you never put it in writing. Writing it is stupid-squared, but even having that attitude is going to show through somehow, in post-shooting interviews and actions, and it will make a difference in the outcome.

DON'T JOKE ABOUT SHOOTING PEOPLE, in any context. Here are some reasons:


It creates a "liability time-bomb".
Joking about shooting someone is a threat and, in today's society, threats are taken at face value (although LEOs seem to get a pass on this).
Joking about shooting someone is creepy and will make other people afraid.

just4fun63
02-14-2010, 7:38 AM
I think this is an overly broad statement. It does seem to be a prevalent attitude in LE management in larger cities but is quite the opposite in smaller communities and rural areas.
I was recently talking to a high ranking police official about the open carry issue, his main complaint was it caused him to have to expend resources dealing with panicky sheeple that see the open carriers and call in "man with a gun" in such a way as to make it seem that there is a public danger occurring. Police resources are limited and these calls tie up his officers who need to be dealing with real calls.

I hope that detective get some "time on the beach" with no pay and the Department gets some good training.

So, what your saying is that the rural cops are bugged by the UOCers, but not panicking. I can appreciate that. However, even rural cops like Adam Christianson (Stanislaus County Sheriff) have CCW policies (http://www.stanislaussheriff.com/forms/pdf/records/SCSD%20Policy%20for%20Permits%20to%20Carry%20Conce aled%20Weapons.pdf) that aren't exactly friendly toward the average citizen. Unfortunately, his idea of good cause is a person who is in greater peril of victimization than the average person. However, while they're assessing your good cause, it might be too late. So, while they may not be freaking out, they are still very stingy with handing out the CCW's. And that's my main point.

Roadrunner I wasn't the clearest in my post, the police official I spoke to was from a medium size somewhat liberal city. Most of the LE I know from the rural areas are pro armed citizen. Of course I don't want to make overly broad statements and I'm sure there are some anti gun or neutral out there. I guess the point I was trying to make was; the big "anti gun attitude" seems to stem from big city police management and filters down to the rank and file.
I agree that "good cause" is wrong. It should be "shall issue"

OC4ME
02-14-2010, 9:01 AM
...nice letter, waste of time, but still nice. The bad cop is a symptom of a far reaching problem. Cops circle the wagons when one of their own is threatened. Even when the cop deserves it. Ignore the citizenry long enough and we forget and move on to the next American Idol episode.

The only way to correct this institutional mindset of us (cops) vs. them (citizens) is to publicly keep the heat turned up on all cops. Change can only come from within, not from without. Calguns may get this dude sacked, but the EPAPD and all others LEA's will be even more retrenched in their view of We The People.

When the cops think that the average law abiding armed citizen is a threat, an impediment to what LE thinks is right for society we the people will never have them on our side. The side of the constitution.

The problem is that California does not have a explicitly enumerated right to keep and bear arms. You change the CA Constitution you change the mindset.

I know....good luck with that.

oaklander
02-14-2010, 9:05 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago

The problem is that California does not have a explicitly enumerated right to keep and bear arms. You change the CA Constitution you change the mindset.

I know....good luck with that.

Ishoot
02-14-2010, 9:19 AM
...nice letter, waste of time, but still nice. The bad cop is a symptom of a far reaching problem. Cops circle the wagons when one of their own is threatened. Even when the cop deserves it. Ignore the citizenry long enough and we forget and move on to the next American Idol episode.....

I disagree, as there's no quick fix to this. I see this as a step towards the right direction. Mindsets don't change overnight. It takes a lot of small nudges to eventually change the minds of many.

obeygiant
02-14-2010, 10:52 AM
Great work!

Maestro Pistolero
02-14-2010, 11:27 AM
Originally Posted by OC4ME
...nice letter, waste of time, but still nice. The bad cop is a symptom of a far reaching problem. Cops circle the wagons when one of their own is threatened. Even when the cop deserves it. Ignore the citizenry long enough and we forget and move on to the next American Idol episode.....
A letter is a necessary step in throwing down the gauntlet. Without a demand letter (which this is IMO) and it's response, there can be no clarity about the position of the parties, and nothing against which to measure and plan remedial action.

ChuckBooty
02-14-2010, 11:31 AM
A letter is a necessary step in throwing down the gauntlet. Without a demand letter (which this is IMO) and it's response, there can be no clarity about the position of the parties, and nothing against which to measure and plan remedial action.

I agree. It's clear to me that EPO has no intention to act on this at all. I'm sure that by now they've been absolutely INNUNDATED with calls, emails, letters and faxes (especially after the Drudge and the FNC write up). I'm willing to be that NO ONE has gotten a response. No one! That says all I need to know right there.

Maestro Pistolero
02-14-2010, 12:12 PM
EPO thinks open carry causes a drain on their limited resources. But look at what one, big-mouthed rogue detective has done. As a resource drain, managing the OC 'threat' pales in comparison to this stupidity.

OC4ME
02-14-2010, 1:08 PM
A letter is a necessary step in throwing down the gauntlet. Without a demand letter (which this is IMO) and it's response, there can be no clarity about the position of the parties, and nothing against which to measure and plan remedial action.

I am not sure how more clear the UOC'ers position can be. We all know what, have known what LE's position is. The positions of the two sides of this issue are and have been crystal clear for years.

We have thrown down a gauntlet, will LE pick it up? Unfortunately LE has the power of arrest and intimidation backed by the old saying. "Yeah right, tell it to the judge. Now get in the car, watch your head."

One of my favorite statements from Rocky - reporter - "what is your prediction for this fight?" Clubber - "pain."

curtisfong
02-14-2010, 1:12 PM
I still see no reason why EPA will want to respond. Its a good letter, but there's nothing to indicate anything good will come of this whole incident (IMO).

timdps
02-14-2010, 1:25 PM
I still see no reason why EPA will want to respond. Its a good letter, but there's nothing to indicate anything good will come of this whole incident (IMO).


I predict a second letter will follow this one if there is no response in a reasonable period. Say two weeks? :43:

tim

OC4ME
02-14-2010, 1:36 PM
I predict a second letter will follow this one if there is no response in a reasonable period. Say two weeks? :43:

tim

...then, when they do not respond to that letter, after a reasonable time we can send another letter...;)

kcbrown
02-14-2010, 1:37 PM
...then, when they do not respond to that letter, after a reasonable time we can send another letter...;)

Stop! Or I shall say "stop" again! :D

OC4ME
02-14-2010, 1:45 PM
Stop! Or I shall say "stop" again! :D

...sorry...:pinch:

oaklander
02-14-2010, 2:45 PM
Escalation works better than repetition.

:cool:

Roadrunner
02-14-2010, 2:48 PM
Well, there's one thing for sure. If EPA doesn't respond, it will be a good indicator of what they intend to do about this....NOTHING! The problem with government bodies is that there is only one way to hit them and that's at the ballot box if you can't hit them in the wallet. Since there isn't a victim per se, unless you can rationalize that the guy from Redwood city who was proned out is a victim, what do you have, other than a loud mouth cop with a serious lack of discretion issue. I'm sure if this dumbass was a security guard somewhere, we might have some real leverage because it's a private company that relies on keeping a good clean name. But other than voting out city council members and the mayor, how do you deal with city offices? Even if a new set of elected officials is put in place and they promise to clean house, there are rules in place that make it a lengthy process just to get rid of the dead wood. That in turn costs money, but the most important thing is the people have to shed their apathy and let the elected officials see it. To the city council, the only people that really matter are the ones who have the power of the vote, and those people are the ones who have an address in East Palo Alto. Businesses don't matter because there's no money in it for them to get involved. How many East Palo Alto voters can we count on to not reelect the mayor and city council. If you know that, you know what percentage of a chance there is in changing the practices of the police department. I personally don't see Tuason getting fired, because I don't think the Chief cares. In fact I only see him caring if he was trying to prevent a law suit or cover his own fat bass. I don't see the city council or Mayor caring either because I think that the majority of the residents of EPA are too apathetic to care. If I'm wrong, I would gladly accept correction.

7x57
02-14-2010, 3:36 PM
Guys, just remember that even if you expect to have to escalate upstairs, it's vitally important to be able to show that you tried all lesser means first. So the letter is the right opening play no matter what endgame EPA PD chooses.

7x57

woodey
02-14-2010, 4:05 PM
That is a classy letter, it give's the PD an easy way out & lets them save face. Job well done!

davescz
02-14-2010, 6:14 PM
That is a classy letter, it give's the PD an easy way out & lets them save face. Job well done!

Way too easy, this cop should be fired, you dont make death threats on the public and get to keep the badge, at least in any just world

tombinghamthegreat
02-14-2010, 6:49 PM
Maybe on this plus side it will lead to more better education on the gun laws?

MP301
02-14-2010, 10:06 PM
So, what your saying is that the rural cops are bugged by the UOCers, but not panicking. I can appreciate that. However, even rural cops like Adam Christianson (Stanislaus County Sheriff) have CCW policies (http://www.stanislaussheriff.com/forms/pdf/records/SCSD%20Policy%20for%20Permits%20to%20Carry%20Conce aled%20Weapons.pdf) that aren't exactly friendly toward the average citizen. Unfortunately, his idea of good cause is a person who is in greater peril of victimization than the average person. However, while they're assessing your good cause, it might be too late. So, while they may not be freaking out, they are still very stingy with handing out the CCW's. And that's my main point.

Well, if rural cops (and Stan County is not my idea of rural), have an issue of using resources on MWG calls, maybe its a good idea to screen the calls better like some agencies do. I saw a post a while back that had a link to a 911 call, (anyone know where its art please repost it here). The dispatcher, once she figured out it was just a gun in a holster without any other out of the ordainary circumstances, told the caller she would not send an officer because there was no law broken.

A letter is a necessary step in throwing down the gauntlet. Without a demand letter (which this is IMO) and it's response, there can be no clarity about the position of the parties, and nothing against which to measure and plan remedial action.

You bet. There is a process that must be followed here for credibilty. Try even filing so much as a small claims case without providing a copy of a demand letter in court. Try convincing anyone that you tried to handle the whole thing fairly without proving it. This is necessary and fair.

That is a classy letter, it give's the PD an easy way out & lets them save face. Job well done!

I loved the letter too. But it doesnt necessarily give them an easy way out in their minds. Their egos and the fear of looking like wusses to their peers in other depts will most likely prevent them from accepting anything from "some uppity citizens group telling them how to do things." I hope im wrong, but I know LE all to well. Now if there was enough pressure (and so far im not seeing it) from the city government, well then maybe....

We are living in interesting times and im real curious as to how al of this will play out.....

Draankol
02-15-2010, 8:02 AM
Excellent correspondence. This is the type of action that will really help us with our firearms rights issues in California.

Kudos to everyone at the Calguns Foundation.

While I feel that this is a very positive step in the right direction, I fear that the East Palo Alto Police Department and Chief will be apt to blowing this off as a well written letter from a bunch of gun nuts. Even though we are nut a bunch of nuts, we are passionate about our rights, just a the EPA PD is passionate about keeping the power they have. So far, the only response I have seen, and if any one else has more recent info about it please do tell, was a statement saying that the comments made by Det. Tuason were his own and not reflective of the EPA PD. To me, that is basically telling the public, of whom Det. Tuason so lovingly spoke of murdering, to pound sand.

Gene and Jason, you guys are great, everything guns owners should be. Thanks for spearheading this! You make a way better figurehead for the cause than I would!

Aptos
02-15-2010, 9:30 AM
Demanding an apology is weak; no one outside the gun community will care if the East Palo Alto Police Department (EPA PD) apologizes or not.

I would recommend that any open carryiers that have been held at gunpoint by EPA PD contact a good attorney. They are the ones that can demand $$$ and really change the EPA PD's ways.

quick draw mcgraw
02-16-2010, 12:55 PM
Gene-

Have you heard anything from or about EPAPD/Det. Tuason regarding your letter or any of its demands, suggestions, or offers?

Thanks again for all your 2A work and support!!!

wildhawker
02-16-2010, 1:18 PM
Demanding an apology is weak; no one outside the gun community will care if the East Palo Alto Police Department (EPA PD) apologizes or not.

I would recommend that any open carryiers that have been held at gunpoint by EPA PD contact a good attorney. They are the ones that can demand $$$ and really change the EPA PD's ways.

You're incorrect, and it's important to correct the record. A civil rights case is not going to make anyone rich (money damages are typically none or $1). This has been hashed out ad nauseam.

Demanding an apology is secondary to demanding proper training.

OC4ME
02-16-2010, 2:13 PM
...you can give all the training to a person you want. They will sit through the training and complete as required. Does not mean that their views will change. Their education will permit them to better "play" the system. When was the last time you looked forward to "sensitivity training" and did it really change your views?

The light of public scorn, however dim, will grow brighter as more know the truth of EPAPD and other LEA's. The law applies to all citizens, even LEO's.

Theseus
02-16-2010, 2:16 PM
...you can give all the training to a person you want. They will sit through the training and complete as required. Does not mean that their views will change. Their education will permit them to better "play" the system. When was the last time you looked forward to "sensitivity training" and did it really change your views?

The light of public scorn, however dim, will grow brighter as more know the truth of EPAPD and other LEA's. The law applies to all citizens, even LEO's.

Maybe because sensitivity training is nothing more than a scam to keep companies from paying large lawsuits to "harassed" people. Didn't you watch that Bull****! episode?

wildhawker
02-16-2010, 2:19 PM
It changes views when violations of policy equate to Federal civil rights lawsuits and disciplinary action up to and including termination of employment.

Try going to a large construction project with female workers and mouth off. See how long you last.

...you can give all the training to a person you want. They will sit through the training and complete as required. Does not mean that their views will change. Their education will permit them to better "play" the system. When was the last time you looked forward to "sensitivity training" and did it really change your views?

The light of public scorn, however dim, will grow brighter as more know the truth of EPAPD and other LEA's. The law applies to all citizens, even LEO's.

OC4ME
02-16-2010, 3:42 PM
It changes views when violations of policy equate to Federal civil rights lawsuits and disciplinary action up to and including termination of employment....Granted

Try going to a large construction project with female workers and mouth off. See how long you last....We are not discussing a construction site. We are discussing LEA's and their employees who have more latitude that a dude swinging a hammer.This is not a workplace incident, this is a expressed intent to murder a law abiding citizen given the opportunity. Leave employment law to lawyers and HR departments.

sorensen440
02-16-2010, 4:53 PM
Very well done

hoffmang
02-16-2010, 9:13 PM
Have you heard anything from or about EPAPD/Det. Tuason regarding your letter or any of its demands, suggestions, or offers?
Today was the first business day that they had our letter in hand as it went out late on Friday. Government, even when responsive, is not known for being fast.
...We are not discussing a construction site. We are discussing LEA's and their employees who have more latitude that a dude swinging a hammer.This is not a workplace incident, this is a expressed intent to murder a law abiding citizen given the opportunity. Leave employment law to lawyers and HR departments.

LOL! Jobsites aren't subject to 42 USC 1983. Training on civil rights is taken quite seriously by LEA/LEOs. Once trained, they lose qualified immunity to suit...

-Gene

quick draw mcgraw
02-16-2010, 9:26 PM
Thanks for the update Gene!!

KylaGWolf
02-16-2010, 9:50 PM
Trust me, you will see things little differently when you are looking down the looong barrel of an AR-15 that is about to rape you of life and limb.

If I were to say anything like that, I would be quickly arrested.

May heads roll.

Not only would you be arrested the press would be notified and you would be lambasted in the paper for being the evil gun owner that threatened someone on a social network on line. I can also almost bet that you would be charged with the very least terroristic threat charges. Oh yeah not to mention that you would probably lose your job in some instances and many other ramifications.

My personal feelings are this. The officer should be fired and banned from working in any area of law enforcement period. Criminal charges should be filed in this case as it would for any civilian that did the same thing.

scrat
02-21-2010, 1:11 PM
Gene what ever became of this

hoffmang
02-21-2010, 1:16 PM
Gene what ever became of this

This is still underway. For some hopefully obvious reasons we can't comment on it yet.

-Gene

Seesm
02-21-2010, 1:49 PM
Can someone get me the letter in email form? MY computer WILL NOt open Gene's files... New laptop so I am nto sure why this is... Weird.

Btw one said he was a CG member? What is his screeen name to see the kind of stuff he has typed in here.

Thanks folks!! And thanks to the CGF for ALL it does for ALL of us.

Meplat
02-21-2010, 2:21 PM
I can't open it either. I reinstalled acrobat and it works for every thing else? Bummer, I'd really like to see that letter.


Can someone get me the letter in email form? MY computer WILL NOt open Gene's files... New laptop so I am nto sure why this is... Weird.

Btw one said he was a CG member? What is his screeen name to see the kind of stuff he has typed in here.

Thanks folks!! And thanks to the CGF for ALL it does for ALL of us.

hoffmang
02-21-2010, 2:35 PM
For those of you having difficulty downloading the letter (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/East-Palo-Alto-CGF-Ltr-2010-02-12.pdf), I've reposted it after saving it in an older version of the PDF standard.

-Gene

elrcastor
02-21-2010, 5:00 PM
Can someone get me the letter in email form? MY computer WILL NOt open Gene's files... New laptop so I am nto sure why this is... Weird.

Btw one said he was a CG member? What is his screeen name to see the kind of stuff he has typed in here.

Thanks folks!! And thanks to the CGF for ALL it does for ALL of us.

I can't open it either. I reinstalled acrobat and it works for every thing else? Bummer, I'd really like to see that letter.

try downloading acrobat reader 9.3 http://get.adobe.com/reader

outland
02-21-2010, 11:12 PM
nothing good yet huh? let me guess... two weeks!

keneva
02-22-2010, 5:43 AM
I had a discouraging talk with our local police chief on Friday. As I have stated before, our Fast Draw club has held competitions from club shoots to the California State Championships in 2007. We have OC'd during our street fairs, Christmas parades and even in our city council meetings. I wanted to do the OC thing at Starbucks yesterday and cleared it with Starbucks. They had no problem. I called to talk to the chief and left a message on Thurs. just to give him a heads up. He called me on Friday and asked me to come in and talk to him.

I was shocked at his response. He said that he asked one of his Sergeants how he would proceed if he got a call of MWG at a local coffee shop.

His response was, We would pull up and secure the perimeter and observe the suspects. Roll in with rifles drawn. Prone them out. Handcuff them and take their weapons away from them. I am not happy with this at all. I called and talked with my city councilman. He and I are going to meet today. We did not do OC at Starbucks.

I would like to talk to Gene or Brian before I go any further.

davescz
02-22-2010, 8:09 AM
I had a discouraging talk with our local police chief on Friday. As I have stated before, our Fast Draw club has held competitions from club shoots to the California State Championships in 2007. We have OC'd during our street fairs, Christmas parades and even in our city council meetings. I wanted to do the OC thing at Starbucks yesterday and cleared it with Starbucks. They had no problem. I called to talk to the chief and left a message on Thurs. just to give him a heads up. He called me on Friday and asked me to come in and talk to him.

I was shocked at his response. He said that he asked one of his Sergeants how he would proceed if he got a call of MWG at a local coffee shop.

His response was, We would pull up and secure the perimeter and observe the suspects. Roll in with rifles drawn. Prone them out. Handcuff them and take their weapons away from them. I am not happy with this at all. I called and talked with my city councilman. He and I are going to meet today. We did not do OC at Starbucks.

I would like to talk to Gene or Brian before I go any further.

I sure hope you got that cop on tape saying that stuff.

Is it time yet for a huge civil disobedance march??? maybe 200 open carry folks in front of a school zone, "try to arrest us all you crazed killer coppers", should be our battle call.

lets fight these SOB's with all our effort.

HUTCH 7.62
02-22-2010, 8:17 AM
I hate EPA, the worst place ever!!

Theses days I can say it is beat out by Richmond, Oakland, and Vallejo as the worst place ever. EPA is tranforming into a decent city and home prices are well above the 500's

davescz
02-22-2010, 8:24 AM
Theses days I can say it is beat out by Richmond, Oakland, and Vallejo as the worst place ever. EPA is tranforming into a decent city and home prices are well above the 500's

i would not call EPA a decent city by anymeans. they hire and retain cops that want to kill open carry folks, the former mayor who still resides there is a county supervisor, you know good ole Gibson, the one that tried to ram thru her gun store restrictions just a few months ago county wide.

If the leaders and police force in EPA are any indication, that town is scum dispite any increase in home prices.

HUTCH 7.62
02-22-2010, 8:27 AM
i would not call EPA a decent city by anymeans. they hire and retain cops that want to kill open carry folks, the former mayor who still resides there is a county supervisor, you know good ole Gibson, the one that tried to ram thru her gun store restrictions just a few months ago county wide.

If the leaders and police force in EPA are any indication, that town is scum dispite any increase in home prices.

Well if you put it like that.........Then, to hell with EPA:p

AndrewMendez
02-22-2010, 8:34 AM
i would not call EPA a decent city by anymeans. they hire and retain cops that want to kill open carry folks, the former mayor who still resides there is a county supervisor, you know good ole Gibson, the one that tried to ram thru her gun store restrictions just a few months ago county wide.

If the leaders and police force in EPA are any indication, that town is scum dispite any increase in home prices.

Oakland #2?
We really have a lot more traction, then I thought we did.

CGF - Laying the smack down, 1 corrupt city at a time!

POLICESTATE
02-22-2010, 8:57 AM
Well if you put it like that.........Then, to hell with EPA:p

Don't forget they have an IKEA, in my book that is more than enough reason NOT to live there. Even if they sell french presses for only $13

dantodd
02-22-2010, 9:04 AM
Is it time yet for a huge civil disobedance march??? maybe 200 open carry folks in front of a school zone, "try to arrest us all you crazed killer coppers", should be our battle call.

I truly hope that you are not serious about that.


It didn't work out so well the last time someone tried a mass armed demonstration in CA. And then it wasn't even illegal.


http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug01/barillari/pantherprologue.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/politicalmuscle/images/2007/05/03/blackpanthers_2.jpg

AndrewMendez
02-22-2010, 9:08 AM
I truly hope that you are not serious about that.


It didn't work out so well the last time someone tried a mass armed demonstration in CA. And then it wasn't even illegal.


http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug01/barillari/pantherprologue.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/politicalmuscle/images/2007/05/03/blackpanthers_2.jpg

Right on que.

dantodd
02-22-2010, 9:16 AM
Right on que.

Used far too often here but every now and then it is actually relevant.

davescz
02-22-2010, 9:25 AM
I truly hope that you are not serious about that.


It didn't work out so well the last time someone tried a mass armed demonstration in CA. And then it wasn't even illegal.


http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug01/barillari/pantherprologue.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/politicalmuscle/images/2007/05/03/blackpanthers_2.jpg

maybe thier failure might have to do with what they were fighting for?

back in 1776 some well armed folks took on one of the most powerful empires of that time, and won their rights back.

dantodd
02-22-2010, 9:27 AM
maybe thier failure might have to do with what they were fighting for?

Do you have ANY idea what the protest was about?

Hopi
02-22-2010, 9:49 AM
Do you have ANY idea what the protest was about?

Ha ha ha... Oh the irony.

oaklander
02-22-2010, 10:04 AM
EPIC History Lesson Fail.

Dave, they were protesting GUN LAWS!

TatankaGap
02-22-2010, 10:49 AM
Excellent Letter - good job to all involved :D

dantodd
02-22-2010, 11:54 AM
EPIC History Lesson Fail.

Dave, they were protesting GUN LAWS!

And specifically those having to do with open carry.

Meplat
02-22-2010, 3:12 PM
Finally got it up!!!:eek::o Did I say that? Great letter!

bodger
02-22-2010, 3:30 PM
EPIC History Lesson Fail.

Dave, they were protesting GUN LAWS!


Looking at that picture now and considering the way things are, it's hard to believe those guys didn't all get blown away.

Steyr_223
02-22-2010, 3:33 PM
Looking at that picture now and considering the way things are, it's hard to believe those guys didn't all get blown away.

Not really..The Panthers were armed and their weapons were loaded in those pictures..A fire fight between lawful armed protesters and capital security would have been a major incident. Besides I am sure someone in power told capital police the protesters were not breaking any laws..

Red Dog
02-22-2010, 4:13 PM
Tag

Cokebottle
02-22-2010, 7:35 PM
Is it time yet for a huge civil disobedance march??? maybe 200 open carry folks in front of a school zone, "try to arrest us all you crazed killer coppers", should be our battle call.
Bad move.

200 violations of 626.9 would absolutely create the wrong kind of publicity.

Aleksandr Mravinsky
02-22-2010, 7:59 PM
200 violations of 626.9 would absolutely create the wrong kind of publicity.

By 'in front of a school zone', I'm pretty sure he means just outside the 1000' mark. Not within the GFZ, just barely outside it.

quick draw mcgraw
02-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Bad move.

200 violations of 626.9 would absolutely create the wrong kind of publicity.


Totally agree!! I can see the evening news headline now.....200 crazy armed gun owners attack elemantary school today.....!!!

Doheny
02-23-2010, 11:33 AM
Bad move.

200 violations of 626.9 would absolutely create the wrong kind of publicity.

Yes, bad move. Add this to his idea of stalking the Detective; another silly idea.

Liberty1
02-23-2010, 11:40 AM
Is it time yet for a huge civil disobedance march???

NO!

Let's do this smart and whatever Gene has planned for EPA PD I'm confident is smart for this point in Ca's history of self defense rights activism. :43:

ocspeedracer
02-23-2010, 12:10 PM
good letter, please keep us posted.

Hunt
02-23-2010, 12:43 PM
All,

The Calguns Foundation sent this letter (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/East-Palo-Alto-CGF-Ltr-2010-02-12.pdf) to East Palo Alto Police Chief Ronald Davis earlier today.

We will be closely monitoring the situation and are hopeful we can obtain a positive result for gun owners.

-Gene

God Bless CalGuns Foundation

stator
02-23-2010, 4:42 PM
Probably will take heat for this, but I disagree with the approach. I believe CGF needed to be more "behind the scenes" with this matter, than the very public approach of posting that letter in public. Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

If this was a politician-appointed or elected position (i.e. chiefs and sheriffs), then by all means do it in public. But for this one, tell the public and CGF contributors that steps are being taken in a more private approach. Take the public approach if a pattern emerges among the rank and file. Until then, don't risk ending up with a "lose-lose" situation.

ETA: I do believe those were excellent points in the letter.

dantodd
02-23-2010, 5:30 PM
Probably will take heat for this, but I disagree with the approach. I believe CGF needed to be more "behind the scenes" with this matter, than the very public approach of posting that letter in public. Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

I am not sure what rank and file would be suspicious of. Can you elaborate?

If a single person is wronged a back-room deal might make sense but when the affront is to the entire population of a city then unless it is dealt with publicly those wronged will not know things have been corrected.

oaklander
02-23-2010, 6:42 PM
CGF is aware of the PR aspects of everything we do.

;)

Probably will take heat for this, but I disagree with the approach. I believe CGF needed to be more "behind the scenes" with this matter, than the very public approach of posting that letter in public. Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

If this was a politician-appointed or elected position (i.e. chiefs and sheriffs), then by all means do it in public. But for this one, tell the public and CGF contributors that steps are being taken in a more private approach. Take the public approach if a pattern emerges among the rank and file. Until then, don't risk ending up with a "lose-lose" situation.

ETA: I do believe those were excellent points in the letter.

Doheny
02-23-2010, 8:06 PM
Probably will take heat for this, but I disagree with the approach. I believe CGF needed to be more "behind the scenes" with this matter, than the very public approach of posting that letter in public. Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

I believe I understand what you're saying and I agree. For the record, no where does this poster say anything about a "backroom deal." As often happens, people put words into someone else's writings.

The public approach CGF has taken in the matter will only serve to strengthen the city's resolve and if anything, convince the PD that they need to "circle the wagons." Anyone reading these threads, and you can be sure that PD management is, will see a mob/lynch mentality. They (the PD) will see the need to protect their employee, both professionally and fraternally.

The mob mentality here and the need for blood is what will "elevate suspicion" by the LEO community. If there is ever a chance for a courtesy to be extended or a wobbler to be ignored, it likely won't happen. Heaven help you if it occurs when you're wearing a CG t-shirt!

Frankly, I see the letter as impotent. It basically asks for two things; an apology and a open carry training program. I don't see the apology happening and they can say they implemented an open carry training program by simply Xeroxing someone else's open carry memo and distributing it to department members.

The City is not going to kowtow or jump the way many folks here would like. I think more would be gained by closing, if not deleting this thread and the "main" thread and waiting patiently for a response. The chest beating and bravado isn't going to help gain anything.

.

hoffmang
02-23-2010, 8:17 PM
Frankly, I see the letter as impotent.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Not all of the cards in CGF's hands are on the table for either you, or frankly for EPA at this point in time.

Those cards will be played as appropriate.

-Gene

thedrickel
02-23-2010, 9:02 PM
Probably will take heat for this, but I disagree with the approach. I believe CGF needed to be more "behind the scenes" with this matter, than the very public approach of posting that letter in public. Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

If this was a politician-appointed or elected position (i.e. chiefs and sheriffs), then by all means do it in public. But for this one, tell the public and CGF contributors that steps are being taken in a more private approach. Take the public approach if a pattern emerges among the rank and file. Until then, don't risk ending up with a "lose-lose" situation.

ETA: I do believe those were excellent points in the letter.

Let me be the first to say . . . Welcome back ;)

ljg17
02-23-2010, 9:32 PM
I appreciate the public communication. I'm sick and tired of trying to be measured in response. If a police officer had made similar comments about a racial group the "representatives" of that group would be selling their "sensitivity" courses to the city. CGF is offering the same services for free very classy. Let them "close ranks" I do not put myself in "wobbler" situations and do not feel the need to lick the boots of yet another criminal syndicate and beg for a portion of my god given rights. If 20 open carriers protested outside of city hall there would certainly be a ratcheting up of the need for the city to apologize for the actions of their employee.

I believe I understand what you're saying and I agree. For the record, no where does this poster say anything about a "backroom deal." As often happens, people put words into someone else's writings.

The public approach CGF has taken in the matter will only serve to strengthen the city's resolve and if anything, convince the PD that they need to "circle the wagons." Anyone reading these threads, and you can be sure that PD management is, will see a mob/lynch mentality. They (the PD) will see the need to protect their employee, both professionally and fraternally.

The mob mentality here and the need for blood is what will "elevate suspicion" by the LEO community. If there is ever a chance for a courtesy to be extended or a wobbler to be ignored, it likely won't happen. Heaven help you if it occurs when you're wearing a CG t-shirt!

Frankly, I see the letter as impotent. It basically asks for two things; an apology and a open carry training program. I don't see the apology happening and they can say they implemented an open carry training program by simply Xeroxing someone else's open carry memo and distributing it to department members.

The City is not going to kowtow or jump the way many folks here would like. I think more would be gained by closing, if not deleting this thread and the "main" thread and waiting patiently for a response. The chest beating and bravado isn't going to help gain anything.

.

davescz
02-24-2010, 8:34 AM
I appreciate the public communication. I'm sick and tired of trying to be measured in response. If a police officer had made similar comments about a racial group the "representatives" of that group would be selling their "sensitivity" courses to the city. CGF is offering the same services for free very classy. Let them "close ranks" I do not put myself in "wobbler" situations and do not feel the need to lick the boots of yet another criminal syndicate and beg for a portion of my god given rights. If 20 open carriers protested outside of city hall there would certainly be a ratcheting up of the need for the city to apologize for the actions of their employee.

exactly, we need 20 folks to show up, I am local and can show up, yet nothign is planned. we need to never let this threat of death go. this rotten cop, and his rotten chief need to go. this is a civil rights issue.

when will a protest event be held.?????????

delisle
02-24-2010, 8:40 AM
God Bless CalGuns Foundation

Ditto! Thanks for all the hard work on our behalf!

oaklander
02-24-2010, 11:40 AM
Folks, nothing is being ruled out at this time. That being said, let's give EPA some time to actually respond to the letter.

I can assure you that this matter will not drop off the RADAR.

BigDogatPlay
02-24-2010, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by stator
Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

If you can find me rank and file LEOs who endorse the concept that the free exercise of an enumerated right, that is endorsed in California law, is worthy of summary execution for the exerciser if they carelessly make a furtive movement, then I would suggest that law enforcement in this state is the real problem and would need a top to bottom house cleaning.

That is after all what this all started with, whether it was intended as a joke or not. As a former LEO at the rank and file, supervisory and staff levels, I was personally offended and professionaly embarrased by the officer's words.

LEOs are public servants, employed by the state to act upon our behalf. If a LEO is going to make such comments publicly I believe that the public, particularly those in the community he serves and who have given him perhaps their highest measure of trust, has an absolute right to know what that officer has on his mind.

Doheny
02-24-2010, 12:19 PM
I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

That's what gentlemen do.

:thumbsup:

POLICESTATE
02-24-2010, 12:28 PM
Sometimes I miss the days when gentlemen would settle their differences with a proper display of fisticuffs.

Would certainly make things in Congress much more interesting :thumbsup:

Python2
02-24-2010, 12:37 PM
If you can find me rank and file LEOs who endorse the concept that the free exercise of an enumerated right, that is endorsed in California law, is worthy of summary execution for the exerciser if they carelessly make a furtive movement, then I would suggest that law enforcement in this state is the real problem and would need a top to bottom house cleaning.

That is after all what this all started with, whether it was intended as a joke or not. As a former LEO at the rank and file, supervisory and staff levels, I was personally offended and professionaly embarrased by the officer's words.

LEOs are public servants, employed by the state to act upon our behalf. If a LEO is going to make such comments publicly I believe that the public, particularly those in the community he serves and who have given him perhaps their highest measure of trust, has an absolute right to know what that officer has on his mind.

I am with you brother. As a fellow Filipino-American and very much in tune with our culture, I am embarrassed to say the least with this guy Tuazon. I am honestly convince he meant what he said when he said it. Just my gut feeling having had experience with LEO's in the Philippines, I am not saying all are bad but I can say most are. I wonder if he was born in the Philippine and brought that attitude here. There is a saying in our culture "birds of the same feather flock together" He should really be fired in my opinion.

masameet
02-24-2010, 1:08 PM
I am with you brother. As a fellow Filipino-American and very much in tune with our culture, I am embarrassed to say the least with this guy Tuazon. I am honestly convince he meant what he said when he said it. Just my gut feeling having had experience with LEO's in the Philippines, I am not saying all are bad but I can say most are. I wonder if he was born in the Philippine and brought that attitude here. There is a saying in our culture "birds of the same feather flock together" He should really be fired in my opinion.

I had a much older cousin who was a cop in the Philippines during the Marcos era. He gave it all up to come here and work a menial job. Being a cop there and being one here in the States -- how can you honestly draw any comparison between the two?

I'm familiar with "Flip" humor, and I'm pretty sure Tuason was joking. Was it in bad taste? Of course. Nevertheless as a Filipina-American and firearms enthusiast, I certainly won't hold his remarks against him.

And has anyone looked at the EPA PDF regarding disciplinary actions and its officers? It's DL-able from its website. I may be mistaken, but from reading it I gather that nothing regarding making an off-duty online joke that threatens no one in particular but offends one group of people following a particular hobby is not among the offenses that could get an EPA cop fired. Verbally reprimanded, sure. But fired, no.

vrand
02-24-2010, 1:19 PM
Folks, nothing is being ruled out at this time. That being said, let's give EPA some time to actually respond to the letter.

I can assure you that this matter will not drop off the RADAR.

:thumbsup:

Soldier415
02-24-2010, 1:29 PM
Probably will take heat for this, but I disagree with the approach. I believe CGF needed to be more "behind the scenes" with this matter, than the very public approach of posting that letter in public. Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

If this was a politician-appointed or elected position (i.e. chiefs and sheriffs), then by all means do it in public. But for this one, tell the public and CGF contributors that steps are being taken in a more private approach. Take the public approach if a pattern emerges among the rank and file. Until then, don't risk ending up with a "lose-lose" situation.

ETA: I do believe those were excellent points in the letter.


Hi Stator,

Nice to see you again :)

We are still waiting on your retraction over here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3859826#post3859826

Gray Peterson
02-24-2010, 1:48 PM
Probably will take heat for this, but I disagree with the approach. I believe CGF needed to be more "behind the scenes" with this matter, than the very public approach of posting that letter in public. Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

If this was a politician-appointed or elected position (i.e. chiefs and sheriffs), then by all means do it in public. But for this one, tell the public and CGF contributors that steps are being taken in a more private approach. Take the public approach if a pattern emerges among the rank and file. Until then, don't risk ending up with a "lose-lose" situation.

ETA: I do believe those were excellent points in the letter.

So when are you going to retract your statements about OLL's? (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=86737)

Soldier415
02-24-2010, 1:51 PM
Hi Stator,

Nice to see you again :)

We are still waiting on your retraction over here http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3859826#post3859826

So when are you going to retract your statements about OLL's? (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=86737)

*Sniff*

Smell that?





It's the plot thickening...

madmike
02-24-2010, 2:04 PM
*Sniff*

Smell that?





It's the plot thickening...


Before I scrolled down, I was sure you were referring to a feline kind of scent...

-madmike.;)

Python2
02-24-2010, 2:28 PM
I'm familiar with "Flip" humor, and I'm pretty sure Tuason was joking. Was it in bad taste? Of course. Nevertheless as a Filipina-American and firearms enthusiast, I certainly won't hold his remarks against him.
.

His word and being a cop is not a "Flip" humor to me. If you have been around LEO's and people with power to enforce to the masa in the Philippines you might think differently.
I am glad the new generation in that country are changing for the better however.
I am still curious and wonder if Tuazon was Philippine born and came here as an adult. That might say a lot about him.

artherd
02-26-2010, 11:05 AM
Hi Stator! What's your address for service of process? Thanks for playing :)

Hopi
02-26-2010, 11:08 AM
Hi Stator! What's your address for service of process? Thanks for playing :)

Doh!

Somebody didn't look both ways before trying to cross the street....

wildhawker
02-26-2010, 12:01 PM
Masa, the issue is that he can no longer fulfill his job description. As expressed previously by Don Kilmer and others, he and the department are up **** creek if he's ever involved in a shooting. He is now a bona fide liability that every news service in the US would swarm if anything even appears sensational.

I guess if this was just good ole boys bein good ole boys, you'd be ok with the result of replacing "gun owner" with "nigger" or "gook"?

HUTCH 7.62
02-26-2010, 12:02 PM
Doh!

Somebody didn't look both ways before trying to cross the street....


Ouch I think Stator just got hit by a bus

vrand
02-26-2010, 1:40 PM
Masa, the issue is that he can no longer fulfill his job description. As expressed previously by Don Kilmer and others, he and the department are up **** creek if he's ever involved in a shooting. He is now a bona fide liability that every news service in the US would swarm if anything even appears sensational.

I guess if this was just good ole boys bein good ole boys, you'd be ok with the result of replacing "gun owner" with "nigger" or "gook"?

^^^ ditto

Cokebottle
02-26-2010, 4:48 PM
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Not all of the cards in CGF's hands are on the table for either you, or frankly for EPA at this point in time.

Those cards will be played as appropriate.

So you're saying that you've got a 9 and an ace showing, with 2 more aces and another 9 in the hand ;)

KCM222
02-26-2010, 8:41 PM
I guess if this was just good ole boys bein good ole boys, you'd be ok with the result of replacing "gun owner" with "nigger" or "gook"?

I knew there was a reason to read through the whole thread before posting...

Liberty1
02-26-2010, 10:25 PM
So you're saying that you've got a 9 and an ace showing, with 2 more aces and another 9 in the hand ;)

Don't play poker with Gene!

Cokebottle
02-26-2010, 10:31 PM
Don't play poker with Gene!
As long as when he flips them over he doesn't say "I win! Full House Flush!"
Guys used to get shot for that ;)

zx9rdr
03-05-2010, 12:29 AM
Have there been any further updates or responses to the letter either privately or publicly?

NorCal MedTac
03-20-2010, 12:47 PM
Anything new on this? Its been well TWO WEEKS since the last posting.

hoffmang
03-20-2010, 8:00 PM
More information in... TWO WEEKS!

-Gene

acousticmood
03-21-2010, 8:59 AM
tag - Just want to keep informed.

yelohamr
03-21-2010, 9:08 AM
Everyone concerned has been sworn to secrecy. If they tell you, they have to kill you.:rolleyes:

Theseus
03-21-2010, 3:23 PM
Everyone concerned has been sworn to secrecy. If they tell you, they have to kill you.:rolleyes:

Oh. . . Now I have to decide which I want more. . . to know the answer or live. :p

Sutcliffe
03-21-2010, 5:20 PM
Everyone concerned has been sworn to secrecy. If they tell you, they have to kill you.:rolleyes:


Begging for some kind of furtive movement and a paid vacation.

HUTCH 7.62
06-30-2010, 10:13 PM
:gene:Probably will take heat for this, but I disagree with the approach. I believe CGF needed to be more "behind the scenes" with this matter, than the very public approach of posting that letter in public. Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

If this was a politician-appointed or elected position (i.e. chiefs and sheriffs), then by all means do it in public. But for this one, tell the public and CGF contributors that steps are being taken in a more private approach. Take the public approach if a pattern emerges among the rank and file. Until then, don't risk ending up with a "lose-lose" situation.

ETA: I do believe those were excellent points in the letter.

Damn bro were you been

obeygiant
06-30-2010, 10:55 PM
:gene:
Probably will take heat for this, but I disagree with the approach. I believe CGF needed to be more "behind the scenes" with this matter, than the very public approach of posting that letter in public. Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

If this was a politician-appointed or elected position (i.e. chiefs and sheriffs), then by all means do it in public. But for this one, tell the public and CGF contributors that steps are being taken in a more private approach. Take the public approach if a pattern emerges among the rank and file. Until then, don't risk ending up with a "lose-lose" situation.

ETA: I do believe those were excellent points in the letter.
Damn bro were you been

Good question, as he has yet to man up and offer a retraction.


...
What I have been told by a DOJ representative is basically you rolled, and Gene is trying to save the day (hence his purchase of a few GB OLLs for standing) but the odds do not look favorable from my perspective...


You've been awfully silent. Care to comment on which alleged "DOJ representatives" you are conversing with? I would very much like to know who is making false statements about me.

To be quite clear; I am calling you out, demanding a public apology and retraction.
Hi Stator! What's your address for service of process? Thanks for playing :)

:gene:

Flintlock Tom
07-01-2010, 8:09 AM
Folks, nothing is being ruled out at this time. That being said, let's give EPA some time to actually respond to the letter.

I can assure you that this matter will not drop off the RADAR.

I'm curious about the status of this issue. Any response at all form the PAPD?

Flintlock Tom
07-01-2010, 1:24 PM
Folks, nothing is being ruled out at this time. That being said, let's give EPA some time to actually respond to the letter.

I can assure you that this matter will not drop off the RADAR.
I'm curious about the status of this issue. Any response at all form the PAPD?

advocatusdiaboli
07-01-2010, 3:43 PM
I disagree.

I know plenty of sane, good people who make lots of off-handed jokes and comments about vile, horrible, evil, wrong and disgusting things for the sake of a laugh.

Maybe, but context is important--they person was talking about his work and what he'd do while engaged in it and he is in a position of power. Not the same as an obvious internet joke and he wields firearms is allowed to use them. This is an order of magnitude more serious.

Doheny
07-01-2010, 6:11 PM
Maybe, but context is important--they person was talking about his work and what he'd do while engaged in it and he is in a position of power. Not the same as an obvious internet joke and he wields firearms is allowed to use them. This is an order of magnitude more serious.

I think that many have not read Tuason said or don't know how to break it down. Nowhere did he say what he'd do or that he would shoot someone as the mob has been saying. He did say that the other guy should have proned out the person in question. He doesn't even say that he'd prone someone out.

For those hoping that he'll get fired or receive some heavy handed discipline, you're going to be disappointed. Sure, the city may say they've implemented a training program, etc, but that will be the extent of it. I'm not justifying Tuason's actions; rather, I'm not just blinding jumping on the bandwagon like many are.

With that said, I applaud the continued work of CGF.

.

advocatusdiaboli
07-01-2010, 6:14 PM
I 't think that many have not read he said or don't know how to break it down. Nowhere did Tuason say what he'd do or that he would shoot someone as the mob has been saying. He did say that the other guy should have proned out the person in question. He doesn't even say that he'd prone someone out.

For those hoping that he'll get fired or receive some heavy handed discipline, you're going to be disappointed. Sure, the city may say they've implemented a training program, etc, but that will be the extent of it. I'm not justifying Tuason's actions, I'm not just blinding jumping on the bandwagon like many are.

With that said, I applaud the continued work of CGF.

I do know how to break it down and so do Jeff and Gene and that is why they wrote the letter which essentially sides with my view and not yours. Putting people in the prone position with loaded firearms trained on them for open carry is excessive and we all know it--even you. Take a look at Sunnyvale's LE memo for an example for a good policy.I am not calling for him to lose his job, but I agree with the letter--to the letter. He will be dealt with appropriately within the department after this and it's their call. All their officers will be better trained just as officers in AZ are now being trained on the new law. I too applaud the work CGF are doing. I just take this particular LE's attitude more seriously than you and I am glad CGF agrees.

pullnshoot25
07-01-2010, 6:56 PM
I do know how to break it down and so do Jeff and Gene and that is why they wrote the letter which essentially sides with my view and not yours. Putting people in the prone position with loaded firearms trained on them for open carry is excessive and we all know it--even you. Take a look at Sunnyvale's LE memo for an example for a good policy.I am not calling for him to lose his job, but I agree with the letter--to the letter. He will be dealt with appropriately within the department after this and it's their call. All their officers will be better trained just as officers in AZ are now being trained on the new law. I too applaud the work CGF are doing. I just take this particular LE's attitude more seriously than you and I am glad CGF agrees.

I take this sort of thing VERY seriously, since quite a few of the OC community have been drawn upon and threatened.

Soldier415
07-02-2010, 12:36 PM
Probably will take heat for this, but I disagree with the approach. I believe CGF needed to be more "behind the scenes" with this matter, than the very public approach of posting that letter in public. Reason is that it is very likely to elevate suspicion by many rank and file LEO's throughout the state on gun owners.

If this was a politician-appointed or elected position (i.e. chiefs and sheriffs), then by all means do it in public. But for this one, tell the public and CGF contributors that steps are being taken in a more private approach. Take the public approach if a pattern emerges among the rank and file. Until then, don't risk ending up with a "lose-lose" situation.

ETA: I do believe those were excellent points in the letter.
I do believe Ben has been waiting to hear from you, he can be found in that thread regarding your retraction...