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View Full Version : Let's Play "Spot the Law Violations" with Vallejo CCW Policy


Gray Peterson
02-11-2010, 7:42 PM
All right all,

Wanted to get a bunch of set of eyes on this to see what Vallejo PD is doing wrong with their CCW local policy manual. As some folks may know, there was a news story by the local paper about the police warning their residents to not have guns unfamiliar to them, and the newspaper essentially twisted it into "no one should arm themselves" (surprise surprise). This was discussed here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=268943). I apparently was the one that generated the news paper by asking for the local CCW policy in a PRA request. *shrugs*

Vallejo seems to have a rather anti-carry policy. If your license has ever been revoked or suspended, you can never get a license there, they don't issue 90 day licenses, and so on.

Your guides are:

Salute v. Pitchess
Guillory v. County of Orange

Not particularly focused on 2A/14A DP+PI issues, as that is being addressed in Sykes. More focused on state law and equal protection. Want to kick Vallejo in the teeth since they're bankrupt.

Billy Jack
02-11-2010, 8:04 PM
You can do a Peruta or a Gorski and 'screw the pooch' or you can do it the Billy Jack way somewhat under the radar. If you Vallejo folks want to take on the policy and the practice I can show you how to do it.

I understand Guillory v Gates was in used as a Cite in the pleadings of one of the 2nd Amendment cases heading to SCOTUS so the 14th and 2nd are not mutually exclusive.

Interested parties can contact myself and team members through our site. It is free, yes free. I will help you Grasshopper. When you can snatch the CCW from my outstretched hand you are ready to go forth and slay the evil CLEOS. Too strong? Hey that is they way this Brave talks.

Seriously men, let's take em down!

I took a moment to go to the site you provided and review the Vallejo CCW Policy. I had to stop and clean my computer screen as I spit coffee all over it as I read the policy. Not going to post specifics here but it violates Salute v Pitchess, Guillory v Gates and the Penal Code. I betcha if you do a Forensic examination of the files you will find 14th Amendment violations as well. Interested parties will contact us as I have indicated earlier in this post.

Billy Jack


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

D-Man
02-11-2010, 8:18 PM
On page 2 they require a medical fitness and / or psychological testing. That goes against the DOJ standards and requirements for one.

Annual qualification with the weapon, since a permit is good for 2 years.

They also require applicants to complete POST training on page 3 from a community college.

A small item is that on page 5 they restrict you from carrying on school grounds at all.

They require the training completed, or the training scheduled on your interview date before you even have done the interview.

I know those are just bullet points, but it gives you a start.

Billy Jack
02-11-2010, 8:23 PM
On page 2 they require a medical fitness and / or psychological testing. That goes against the DOJ standards and requirements for one.

Annual qualification with the weapon, since a permit is good for 2 years.

They also require applicants to complete POST training on page 3 from a community college.

A small item is that on page 5 they restrict you from carrying on school grounds at all.

They require the training completed, or the training scheduled on your interview date before you even have done the interview.

I know those are just bullet points, but it gives you a start.

D-Man,

Most of your conclusions are wrong and you missed the important ones. Let's not ruin the surprise by telling them here, what they are doing wrong. Billy Jack like to do a 'Little Big Horn' on the Long Knives

Hopi
02-11-2010, 8:23 PM
You can do a Peruta or a Gorski and 'screw the pooch' or you can do it the Billy Jack way somewhat under the radar. If you Vallejo folks want to take on the policy and the practice I can show you how to do it.

I understand Guillory v Gates was in used as a Cite in the pleadings of one of the 2nd Amendment cases heading to SCOTUS so the 14th and 2nd are not mutually exclusive.

Interested parties can contact myself and team members through our site. It is free, yes free. I will help you Grasshopper. When you can snatch the CCW from my outstretched hand you are ready to go forth and slay the evil CLEOS. Too strong? Hey that is they way this Brave talks.

Seriously men, let's take em down!

I took a moment to go to the site you provided and review the Vallejo CCW Policy. I had to stop and clean my computer screen as I spit coffee all over it as I read the policy. Not going to post specifics here but it violates Salute v Pitchess, Guillory v Gates and the Penal Code. I betcha if you do a Forensic examination of the files you will find 14th Amendment violations as well. Interested parties will contact us as I have indicated earlier in this post.

Billy Jack


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

Is your concern with this exposure that they will change their policy to reflect our criticism? Wouldn't that be your goals with any lawsuits?

If so, it seems that our community might be able to do for free what you will happily charge for. If I'm misreading your intent here, feel free to correct me.

D-Man
02-11-2010, 8:25 PM
D-Man,

Most of your conclusions are wrong and you missed the important ones. Let's not ruin the surprise by telling them here, what they are doing wrong. Billy Jack like to do a 'Little Big Horn' on the Long Knives

Fair enough. Happy to delete my other post if you wish. Not one to mess with TBJ on something.

Billy Jack
02-11-2010, 8:27 PM
Is your concern with this exposure that they will change their policy to reflect our criticism? Wouldn't that be your goals with any lawsuits?

If so, it seems that our community might be able to do for free what you will happily charge for. If I'm misreading your intent here, feel free to correct me.

Brave can walk into Chief's office with copies of all the laws he is violating and he will not change them. It does not work that way. Been doing these for a lot of years.

Tell you what, try your suggestion first and see what he does.

What part of free do you not understand?

Billy Jack

Billy Jack
02-11-2010, 8:33 PM
A good, constructive discussion about this department and how to deal with it would best be conducted off this site, by e-mail or phone conversation. I would like to see some Vallejo residents involved or you are just peeing into rain. That get your Mocassins wet.

Billy Jack

www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

Hopi
02-11-2010, 8:35 PM
Brave can walk into Chief's office with copies of all the laws he is violating and he will not change them. It does not work that way. Been doing these for a lot of years.

Tell you what, try your suggestion first and see what he does.


I'll ask again in different terms, since I seem to have mis-communicated it the first time; how can posting this thread 'screw the pooch', what response will this thread generate that would lead you to categorize the OP as a potential 'Gorski' by posting?



What part of free do you not understand?

Billy Jack

I love you. You're a funny character.

MP301
02-12-2010, 2:55 AM
A good, constructive discussion about this department and how to deal with it would best be conducted off this site, by e-mail or phone conversation. I would like to see some Vallejo residents involved or you are just peeing into rain. That get your Mocassins wet.

Billy Jack

www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

Now thats some funny stuff right thar! :p

Seriously folks, if you live in Valley-ho, then get off your ***** and go hear him out. I will repeat what he said..."What part free dont you understand?"

Dont be Ascairt! There are no reports of BJ scalping anybody! At least none we can verify!

kermit315
02-12-2010, 8:07 AM
tagged to watch.

dantodd
02-12-2010, 8:12 AM
D-Man,

Most of your conclusions are wrong and you missed the important ones. Let's not ruin the surprise by telling them here, what they are doing wrong. Billy Jack like to do a 'Little Big Horn' on the Long Knives

Some folks prefer to do it as a community. You are welcome to join in but please do not quash the conversation.

Thank you.

Untamed1972
02-12-2010, 8:52 AM
What amazes is me as they they require their reserve officers to go thru the CCW process and actually pay a fee for the license. Why dont they just authorize them to carry off duty on their Dept. ID?

Sounds like a sucka** dept to be a reserve for.....not only did you pay for your own training and are working for free, they charge you for the privilege of carrying off duty?

Billy Jack
02-12-2010, 8:58 AM
Some folks prefer to do it as a community. You are welcome to join in but please do not quash the conversation.

Thank you.

How much you post should be determined by what you want to accomplish. If you desire to bloviate, then by all means discuss this on the Internet to death. If on the other hand, a person resides in Vallejo, which apparently you do not, and they would like to address this issue from a legal stand point, they might want to have a qualified person do a thorough review of the process and then decide how to proceed.

I see many wet Mocassins out their. If you bloviate long enough your face also get wet.

Billy Jack



www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

dantodd
02-12-2010, 11:07 AM
How much you post should be determined by what you want to accomplish. If you desire to bloviate, then by all means discuss this on the Internet to death. If on the other hand, a person resides in Vallejo, which apparently you do not, and they would like to address this issue from a legal stand point, they might want to have a qualified person do a thorough review of the process and then decide how to proceed.

I see many wet Mocassins out their. If you bloviate long enough your face also get wet.

Billy Jack



www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

Preston. Please refrain from calling names. Yes, I know what bloviate means and I am not impressed. I have often suggested that people who want a CCW should work with you. And, if they have the money, you offer a very valuable service.

However; please do not belittle the efforts of others.

See, it is possible to have a nice conversation without the name calling.

Knight
02-12-2010, 11:17 AM
Oh, yes, BJ, my man! Just when things were getting boring around here. Looking forward to what unfolds. :popcorn:

7x57
02-12-2010, 11:33 AM
OK, this is going to be a test of whether we care more about the 2A or about certain long-standing differences between Billy Jack and Calguns. :(

7x57

dantodd
02-12-2010, 11:40 AM
OK, this is going to be a test of whether we care more about the 2A or about certain long-standing differences between Billy Jack and Calguns. :(

7x57

It really shouldn't be. This is a endeavor set forth by a well respected member of the community and those who do not wish to participate can merely stay out. This has zero to do with Preston.

Live and let live.

bwiese
02-12-2010, 12:06 PM
I have to say that Billy Jack has a specific goal of solving individual CCW issues outside the RKBA sphere. He has a good record of it.

Gray's commentaries really aren't in conflict with TBJ as these comments and TBJs work allo involve procedural flaws leading to due process/equal protection matters.

The fact that there is a business aspect in TBJ's efforts shouldn't be frowned upon - our OLL revolution was hugely boosted by "enlighted capitalism" by FFLs wanting to make money and taking a calculated, intelligent risk-vs-reward stance. Bottom line, what TBJ does can and does work. If someone wants a CCW bad enough and has some reasonable funds to do it, he'll get a CCW that likely "won't go away". The fact that folks are getting CCWs in LA speaks for itself.

Right now we don't have RKBA - so Sykes etc. is on hold. For the short term - and via the short hairs, so to speak - TBJ's way is the right way. It at least gets invidual results and creates a "recipe" for replication if people follow all the steps. (Many folks abandon things at the early stages, which is wrong.)

Having separate and dual paths moving toward gunrights is ALWAYS a good thing - a "pincers movement", if you will. [You'll notice my inquiries in the past about cops owning illegal AWs were designed around equal protection matters, and not incorporated RKBA, and designed for a possible favorable incremental politico-legal outcome.]

While in no way supportive of UOC given the personal and political risks vs. future favorable environment, I will say that the UOCers - if they hoped to be truly helpful and still insist on UOCing - should indeed go thru all the steps in their locale to apply for, and be denied, and appeal, and be denied, a CCW. You can't make due process or equal protection claims if you friggin' haven't followed a process that other successful applicants have.

7x57
02-12-2010, 12:19 PM
This has zero to do with Preston.


It potentially has everything to do with Billy Jack, given that it seems rather likely that he already has info on that department and has offered his help for free on what amounts to his area of unusual expertise.

7x57

SgtDinosaur
02-12-2010, 12:29 PM
I just perused Billy Jack's website and I have to say I would use his services. I doubt very much that I would be successful on my own, and would definitely need someone to guide me. And yeah, I live in Vallejo, but I haven't decided to pursue it right now. I had a CCW permit in Georgia back in 91/92 and it was so different there. I just don't know if I have the time, patience and energy to go through Vallejo's perverted process.

sfwdiy
02-12-2010, 1:08 PM
...The fact that folks are getting CCWs in LA speaks for itself.

Huh? Pics or it didn't happen. :p

--B

ke6guj
02-12-2010, 1:13 PM
Huh? Pics or it didn't happen. :p

--B

IIRC, there are specific classes of people that listed in the LA court ruling/settlement that by their profession are basically deemed to have meet the "good cause" requirements. BJ has, in the past, asked for people that meet the requirement to contact him. Jason Davis, on behalf of CGF, also posted a memo explaining it.

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/ccw/Open-Letter-LA-CCW-(Assenza)-2009-09-05.pdf

dantodd
02-12-2010, 1:39 PM
It potentially has everything to do with Billy Jack, given that it seems rather likely that he already has info on that department and has offered his help for free on what amounts to his area of unusual expertise.

7x57

I am certainly not too big a man to admit when I am wrong. I think you and I read the following differently.

Interested parties can contact myself and team members through our site. It is free, yes free. I will help you Grasshopper. When you can snatch the CCW from my outstretched hand you are ready to go forth and slay the evil CLEOS. Too strong? Hey that is they way this Brave talks.

If this is meant to say that he will assist Gray in publicly changing the CCW policy then bully for him and I misread his statement. If it means, as I read it, that they will continue to help individuals with their GC statement for free and the appeal process for a fee then this effort is parallel to his efforts and he will be no specific help in this endeavor.

Preston can clear the confusion up directly if he so chooses.

johnny_22
02-12-2010, 1:53 PM
"According to a spokesman for the sheriff's office, applications for concealed weapons permits are up 25%."

http://www.kcbs.com/localnews/Vallejo-Continues-to-React-to-Crime-Wave/6350274

Hope they are applying smart, with Team Billy Jack's help.

dantodd
02-12-2010, 1:55 PM
Hope they are applying smart, with Team Billy Jack's help.

Anyone applying for a CCW should avail themselves of his offer of a free GC review. It is the most important aspect of the application (assuming you are not a prohibited person! :D )

7x57
02-12-2010, 5:07 PM
If this is meant to say that he will assist Gray in publicly changing the CCW policy then bully for him and I misread his statement.

I understood him to be offering free advice for anyone who wanted to give it a try, just not in a venue he thinks would be counterproductive.

One thing I've noticed about Billy Jack--he's very consistent in only offering to help efforts that he believes are done "right." That seems to irritate people, though I've never noticed that any of them had a fraction of his experience in winning cases in 2A-hostile courts against intransigent departments. If I lived there and were going to make the effort, frankly, I'd do it his way no matter how it annoyed anyone. If he says don't discuss it here, I wouldn't. It seems that he offered to meet face-to-face with interested parties to give free advice--why would I not do that?

CGF knows when to keep their mouths shut too.

7x57

Billy Jack
02-12-2010, 7:48 PM
TBJ has assisted applicants for free in counties all over California. Some were to PD's but most are to SO's. The vast majority were successful and not a dime was spent by the applicant except for copies. My applicants to not post success as they understand the word 'concealed' and have legitimate concerns for their safety and that of their families.

Posting, 'hey I just got mine' is most foolish, but acceptable on some of the other sites. We do not discuss anyones GC with anyone else except counsel. I realize many of you have questions that we can not answer to your satisfaction. The applicants that wind up hiring me do not want their particular cases and circumstances discussed on a public forum.

The bay area is about to explode and the Sheriffs race is about to get much more interesting in one of the counties. TBJ love California Government Code 6250, Public Records Act. Makes our job so much easier and like the movie, there isn't anything they can do to stop me short of a 'Buford Pusser'.

Free still means free gentlemen. One more thing a couple of you need to understand, this is an anonymous site and referring to anyone by their real name is inappropriate and rude to say the least. This is an area that Moderator should take a serious look at. Let's not go around outing people you do not agree with. Copy that?

Billy Jack


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

Gray Peterson
02-12-2010, 8:01 PM
Free still means free gentlemen. One more thing a couple of you need to understand, this is an anonymous site and referring to anyone by their real name is inappropriate and rude to say the least. This is an area that Moderator should take a serious look at. Let's not go around outing people you do not agree with. Copy that?
Billy Jack


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

I'm willing to bet that doesn't necessarily apply to someone like myself, Gene Hoffman, Bill Wiese, artherd (Ben Cannon), etc?

Billy Jack
02-12-2010, 8:11 PM
I'm willing to bet that doesn't necessarily apply to someone like myself, Gene Hoffman, Bill Wiese, artherd (Ben Cannon), etc?

Brave was not clear enough. If you desire to identify yourself by your real name that is a personal choice but doing so to others is inappropriate. On TBJ site we never refer to any poster by real names. Could it be that Billy Jack exercises more discretion and discipline than calgunners?

Billy Jack



www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

dantodd
02-12-2010, 8:15 PM
Alrighty. Can we get a mod in here to get all the OT stuff cleaned up and get back to the topic at hand. I'd hate for a perfectly good thread to get derailed.

Meplat
02-12-2010, 10:51 PM
If you are giving advice on GC statments for free you ae doing the lords work.

If later down the line I decide to litigate I would expect to pay.

TBJ has assisted applicants for free in counties all over California. Some were to PD's but most are to SO's. The vast majority were successful and not a dime was spent by the applicant except for copies. My applicants to not post success as they understand the word 'concealed' and have legitimate concerns for their safety and that of their families.

Posting, 'hey I just got mine' is most foolish, but acceptable on some of the other sites. We do not discuss anyones GC with anyone else except counsel. I realize many of you have questions that we can not answer to your satisfaction. The applicants that wind up hiring me do not want their particular cases and circumstances discussed on a public forum.

The bay area is about to explode and the Sheriffs race is about to get much more interesting in one of the counties. TBJ love California Government Code 6250, Public Records Act. Makes our job so much easier and like the movie, there isn't anything they can do to stop me short of a 'Buford Pusser'.

Free still means free gentlemen. One more thing a couple of you need to understand, this is an anonymous site and referring to anyone by their real name is inappropriate and rude to say the least. This is an area that Moderator should take a serious look at. Let's not go around outing people you do not agree with. Copy that?

Billy Jack


www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

7x57
02-13-2010, 1:06 AM
BCould it be that Billy Jack exercises more discretion and discipline than calgunners?


Undoubtedly!

7x57

wildhawker
02-17-2010, 5:14 PM
bump