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View Full Version : Run in against Oceanside PD last night


BlackReef
02-10-2010, 1:42 PM
Because of my schedule, I do my running/conditioning down at the beach at around 1 AM or so. I carry a knife in a sheath on my belt for self defense.

I sat down to rest for a few minutes, near the boardwalk. Oside PD rolls up, calls for backup etc as Im quietly sitting there.

They walk up, blast their flashlights on my face and start interrogating me, asking me why Im there, etc. I was very short but courteous with my responses. Then the sheath on my belt caught their attention. They immediately cuffed me, detained me, and pulled the knife out. First thing out of the officer's mouth..."Are you serious?" in a sarcastic way.

Anyways so I sit there while one officer watches me, the other is back in his car running my information (I had no ID on me). He comes back after about 30 minutes and gives me a stern lecture about the knives I should carry. He recommended for protection that I get a smaller folder and clip it to my belt.

I guess the biggest problem they had was that my t-shirt was covering most of the knife/sheath, thus rendering it nearly concealed.

Unfortunately I am not versed with knife laws as well as I am firearm laws, so I didnt have alot of legal leverage in my defense. All I knew to do was to be as polite, courteous with my responses, and basically do anything to let them know Im not going to try and hurt them. Im a big dude (6'3) with a long ponytail so they were probably pretty uneasy, atleast initially.

So after the lecture, they took my KABAR and stuck it in the grass next to me. They told me I could have it back, but only reach for it after they are in their cars and are driving away.

So I sat there and waited for a few minutes and talked to some homeless bums, lol. After they left I got my knife, cleaned off the mud and re-sheathed it. I continued my PT in peace. Didnt get home till 3AM or so. No citation or anything, worked out well considering.

Just thought Id share
-J

SteveH
02-10-2010, 1:44 PM
You should be more worried about municiple code violations for hours of park/beach use than the knife IMO.

Roadrunner
02-10-2010, 1:52 PM
It makes me wonder what will happen when we get shall issue. Will these girlie men stay in the police profession or will they run away and find something safer?

McCrown
02-10-2010, 2:05 PM
This is rediculous, if you are sure you were not in violation of anything else I would file a complaint. They couldn't even give you your knife back cause they didn't trust you and the even have firepower. And what would prevent some homeless person from taking it while it was in the grass.

Ed_Hazard
02-10-2010, 2:13 PM
Glad it all worked out fot you. no excuse though on not being versed on knife laws. Accurate knowledge of your rights and dutys when chooseing to carry a knife are a must. Fixed blades must never be concealed.
I've always carried large fixed blades, my EDC is either my custom Dennis Cook damascus karambit or a Dawson bowie. I alsocarry 2 Benchmades along with a fixed blade. My trusty McHenry & Williams 710 and Emerson cqc7 Whats your EDC?

yelohamr
02-10-2010, 2:21 PM
An off topic question. Just need a yes or no answer (preferably a correct answer).
I have a Lagana tomahawk that I carried in Viet Nam. Can that be open carried in CA?

M. D. Van Norman
02-10-2010, 2:24 PM
I think you were very lucky not to be arrested on a felony weapons violation. Wrong, yes, but that’s the way it is right now.

The Director
02-10-2010, 2:34 PM
I think you were very lucky not to be arrested on a felony weapons violation. Wrong, yes, but that’s the way it is right now.

Why? He was doing nothing illegal. A large fixed blade, even double edged, is OK as long as it is worn openly on the belt. If it becomes concealed whether on purpose or by accident, you creep into the dirk / dagger territory.

I think the combo of a guy running in the middle of the night with a Ka-Bar was enough to get him attention, and frankly I would expect cops to at least stop people in this type of scenario. That's what they're supposed to do. The fact nothing was confiscated and he wasn't charged is a testament to him doing nothing wrong.

I'd wager if he'd of gotten a haircut instead of having a ponytail his detention would have been five minutes or less......:p

M. D. Van Norman
02-10-2010, 2:37 PM
By his own admission, he did creep into the concealed dirk/dagger territory, which is an automatic felony charge if I recall correctly.

sfwdiy
02-10-2010, 2:53 PM
By his own admission, he did creep into the concealed dirk/dagger territory, which is an automatic felony charge if I recall correctly.

Carrying a dirk or dagger is only a felony if it's concealed. Open carry of a fixed blade is completely legal under state law. There are all kinds of goofy municipal codes that can catch you, though.

--B

nrvnqsrxk
02-10-2010, 2:54 PM
If the police officer can write in his police report that he did not know your fixed blade was there, as far as the jury is concerned, you are in violation of Penal Code 12020 (4). If you carry a fixed blade, make sure it is somewhere visible (on your waist with your shirt/jacket not covering it. Make absolutely sure that it is visible, and not made visible when a law enforcement officer is approaching you.

This is why he advised you to carry a small folder on your person. You are allowed to carry the folder concealed. Just don't go on school grounds if that blade is longer than 2.5". Also, you should check your county laws for blade length restrictions. In LA, you're in trouble if your blade is longer than 3" I think.

dantodd
02-10-2010, 2:55 PM
Carrying a dirk or dagger is only a felony if it's concealed. Open carry of a fixed blade is completely legal under state law. There are all kinds of goofy municipal codes that can catch you, though.

--B

It is usually best to read the actual post before replying. From the OP:


I guess the biggest problem they had was that my t-shirt was covering most of the knife/sheath, thus rendering it nearly concealed.

MudCamper
02-10-2010, 2:56 PM
Unfortunately I am not versed with knife laws as well as I am firearm laws, so I didnt have alot of legal leverage in my defense.

http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw/knifelaw.html

ETA: Short version: Concealed fixed blade is illegal. Unconcealed fixed blade, any length, is legal. Concealed folder, including locking and assisted opening, any length, is legal. This is all with regard to state law. There are some local ordinances to look out for.

Untamed1972
02-10-2010, 3:12 PM
If the police officer can write in his police report that he did not know your fixed blade was there, as far as the jury is concerned, you are in violation of Penal Code 12020 (4). If you carry a fixed blade, make sure it is somewhere visible (on your waist with your shirt/jacket not covering it. Make absolutely sure that it is visible, and not made visible when a law enforcement officer is approaching you.

This is why he advised you to carry a small folder on your person. You are allowed to carry the folder concealed. Just don't go on school grounds if that blade is longer than 2.5". Also, you should check your county laws for blade length restrictions. In LA, you're in trouble if your blade is longer than 3" I think.

Is that 3" for a folder in LA or only fixed blade?

Man crap like that sucks because I travel all over the state for work. How is one seriously supposed to be able to know the laws of every county, city, and hamlet they pass thru?

rkt88edmo
02-10-2010, 3:47 PM
Since that is sold as a self defense knife, I wonder if it would be more of a legal risk in counties/cities that do not allow you to carry a knife for the purpose of self defense.


If you know of any "purpose" based laws post them up. Not a knife law expert, but I've never heard of such a thing except for exceptions to specifically allow things that are generally forbidden.

aermotor
02-10-2010, 4:03 PM
I'd say you're quite lucky as well to get off with nothing... A stricter LEO looking to slam someone could have put some hurt on you. Any type on concealment on a fixed blade is definitely a no-no. Absolutely legal to carry open, but it really needs to be completely open with no chance of being concealed in the slightest. That's just to keep any trouble off you.

Glad you handled it well and it didn't escalate. An easy lesson learned with no consequences luckily.

dwh100
02-10-2010, 4:36 PM
Sure would be nice if that site were updated.

Maybe someone @ Calguns could build a more up to date version- something like a ...
CA Knife Carry Flow Chart!?!

http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw/knifelaw.html

ETA: Short version: Concealed fixed blade is illegal. Unconcealed fixed blade, any length, is legal. Concealed folder, including locking and assisted opening, any length, is legal. This is all with regard to state law. There are some local ordinances to look out for.

IGOTDIRT4U
02-10-2010, 4:37 PM
I'd say you're quite lucky as well to get off with nothing... A stricter LEO looking to slam someone could have put some hurt on you. Any type on concealment on a fixed blade is definitely a no-no. Absolutely legal to carry open, but it really needs to be completely open with no chance of being concealed in the slightest. That's just to keep any trouble off you.

Glad you handled it well and it didn't escalate. An easy lesson learned with no consequences luckily.

To which I say this is one of the dumbest laws ever. It's almost impossible to hunt without concealing your fixed blade knives. Or is there and exception.

tyrist
02-10-2010, 4:38 PM
Since you yourself stated it was concealed AND for self defense you just dodged a felony.

Meplat
02-10-2010, 5:15 PM
at the beach at around 1 AM or so.

I carry a knife in a sheath on my belt for self defense.

(I had no ID on me).

Unfortunately I am not versed with knife laws

-J

Are you serious? ;)

oaklander
02-10-2010, 5:35 PM
Local knife law is tricky - under the Oakland ord., for example, pretty much ALL knives are outlawed:

9.36.010 - Dangerous weapon defined.

9.36.020 - Carrying dangerous weapon.

9.36.030 - Disorderly conduct.

9.36.040 - Sale, transfer or possession of spring-blade, switch-blade, snap-blade, or other similar type knives prohibited.

9.36.010 - Dangerous weapon defined.

As used in this article, "dangerous weapon" means and includes, but is not limited to:
A.
Any knife having a blade three inches or more in length, or any snap-blade or spring-blade knife regardless of the length of the blade;
B.
Any ice pick or similar sharp stabbing tool;
C.
Any straight edge razor or any razor blade fitted to a handle;
D.
Any cutting, stabbing or bludgeoning weapon or device capable of inflicting grievous bodily harm;
E.
Any dirk or dagger or bludgeon.

(Prior code § 2 7.01)

9.36.020 - Carrying dangerous weapon.

It is unlawful for any person to carry upon his or her person or to have in his or her possession or under his or her control any dangerous weapon; provided that it shall be a defense to any prosecution for a violation of this section if, at the time of the alleged violation, the instrument or device alleged to be a dangerous weapon was in good faith carried upon the person of the accused or was in good faith in his or her possession or control for use in his or her lawful occupation or employment or for the purpose of lawful recreation; and provided, further, that the provisions of this section shall not apply to the commission of any act which is made a public offense by any law of this state.

(Prior code § 2 7.02)

9.36.030 - Disorderly conduct.

It is unlawful for any person who has upon his or her person or in his or her possession or control any dangerous weapon to engage in any fight or participate in any rough or disorderly conduct upon any public place or way or upon the premises of another.

(Prior code § 2 7.03)

9.36.040 - Sale, transfer or possession of spring-blade, switch-blade, snap-blade, or other similar type knives prohibited.

Notwithstanding any provisions in this article to the contrary, no person shall sell, offer for sale, expose for sale, keep, carry, possess, loan, transfer, or give any other person any spring-blade, switch-blade, snap-blade, or other similar type knife, or any knife the blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical device.

pnkssbtz
02-10-2010, 6:40 PM
Isn't oakland ordinances preempted by state just like firearms laws are?

oaklander
02-10-2010, 6:44 PM
Not sure of the state knife laws have the "we intend to occupy the entire field" like the state guns laws do.

Let me check. State law appears to preempt. . .

ETA: see People v. Bass, 225 Cal.App.2d Supp. 777 (1963).

"Applying the principle of the cases just cited we conclude that the Legislature, having prohibited the carrying of dirks, daggers and switch-blade knives, has not only itself not forbidden one to carry the knife possessed by the defendant, but has shut off the power of the city to forbid it."

That being said, I haven't checked to see what the later cases say. . . or if this case has been criticized or overturned, etc. this is an old case. . .

ETA: just ran it against Shepard's on Lexis - still appears to be good law. . .

This is interesting, to say the least!

Isn't oakland ordinances preempted by state just like firearms laws are?

7x57
02-10-2010, 7:42 PM
This is interesting, to say the least!

Wait! Did you just say the muncipal knife ordnances could be challenged under pre-emption? Cuz that's what I thought you just said. :43:

Do we need to form the CKF now? :D

7x57

383green
02-10-2010, 7:56 PM
Do we need to form the CKF now? :D

Let's just make it the CAF. Because I want swords, trebuchets, petards and so forth, too. :43:

7x57
02-10-2010, 8:15 PM
Let's just make it the CAF. Because I want swords, trebuchets, petards and so forth, too. :43:

Good. Swords because no gentleman would be caught dead without one, trebuchets because nothing is more fun than lobbing rotting horses over the enemy's wall. :D

7x57

383green
02-10-2010, 8:17 PM
If my CNC mill was up and running, I'd totally design and build a trebuchet upper receiver.

Seesm
02-10-2010, 8:51 PM
Wait so did someone mention a double edge knife is ok? I was thinking a fairburn sykes type of camando knife is illegal to OWN let alone carry... I want one please let me know. :)

1911su16b870
02-10-2010, 9:07 PM
...I guess the biggest problem they had was that my t-shirt was covering most of the knife/sheath, thus rendering it nearly concealed...

OPD gave the OP a huge bye wrt concealed fixed blade knife (felony) and violation of MCs. IMO Your calm, honest, non-confrontational demeanor got you off. Glad to hear you are ok and making the best of the situation.

Tuck your shirt into your shorts with a fixed blade so the handle is visible or get yourself a combat folder.

ETA: check the municipal codes for allowed knives...

Kerplow
02-10-2010, 11:30 PM
Local knife law is tricky - under the Oakland ord., for example, pretty much ALL knives are outlawed:

correct me ifin' im wrong, but doesnt the below in bold basically say that if you violate 9.36.020 you are basically cool as long as it was "in good faith" and "for the purpose of lawful recreation"?

I would have though minding your own business ("in good faith") while doing your nightly jog could be construed as "lawful recreation."


it is unlawful for any person to carry upon his or her person or to have in his or her possession or under his or her control any dangerous weapon; provided that it shall be a defense to any prosecution for a violation of this section if, at the time of the alleged violation, the instrument or device alleged to be a dangerous weapon was in good faith carried upon the person of the accused or was in good faith in his or her possession or control for use in his or her lawful occupation or employment or for the purpose of lawful recreation; and provided, further, that the provisions of this section shall not apply to the commission of any act which is made a public offense by any law of this state.

chickenfried
02-10-2010, 11:38 PM
But he didn't state it was concealed. He said it was "nearly concealed":p

chaled
02-10-2010, 11:40 PM
Oceanside PD hits me up everytime my girl and I have a romantic firepit going on at the beach. Never asked us about weapons though. It's always the same drugs and alcohol bit and the on going search for glass bottles. Flashlights in your grill are freakin annoying. Glad you got out unscathed.

Foriegn power
02-10-2010, 11:53 PM
To the original person, I can totally relate to you, i always run with a knife! But on my situation I run with the knife/ sheathed holding it while i run and have parachute cord wrapped around the sheath where I put my keys chained to it, so it looks like a key chain. But I would almost never run without a knife for many reasons! Keep on carrying.

pullnshoot25
02-11-2010, 1:03 AM
An off topic question. Just need a yes or no answer (preferably a correct answer).
I have a Lagana tomahawk that I carried in Viet Nam. Can that be open carried in CA?

It ain't but a tomahawk thing (http://caopencarry.blogspot.com/2009/06/it-aint-but-tomahawk-thing.html)

pullnshoot25
02-11-2010, 1:15 AM
I dislike Oceanside Police Department. However, the guy there that I deal with on OC stuff is relatively decent.

sreiter
02-11-2010, 1:15 AM
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:

(4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.


(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not
prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use
as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death
only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.

Section 653k
Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's
area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the
public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells,
offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any
other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in
length is guilty of a misdemeanor.
For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a
knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a
spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other
similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more
inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick
of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other
mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by
any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not
include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure
applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to
the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism
that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade,
or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.
For purposes of this section, "passenger's or driver's area" means
that part of a motor vehicle which is designed to carry the driver
and passengers, including any interior compartment or space therein.

SenorJefe
02-11-2010, 7:20 AM
OPD is difficult because of the frequency and harshness they deal with stops. They are, however, often lenient when it comes to minor infractions. The reason they push hard is b/c of the element they encounter in o'side. The rest who aren't gangbangin' or drug running, they bid farewell.

Going thru a checkpoint is a different story, it's like the inquisition.

doorman
02-11-2010, 7:30 AM
I think I recall a rather unfortunate event that happened to OPD awhile back. I think they had an officer who was shot and killed from a distance while making a routine traffic stop. They are probably a little overly cautious

Decoligny
02-11-2010, 7:47 AM
Wait so did someone mention a double edge knife is ok? I was thinking a fairburn sykes type of camando knife is illegal to OWN let alone carry... I want one please let me know. :)

Double edged knife is perfectly legal. There is absolutely nothing in the Penal Code making them illegal.

"Dirk or Dagger" in California Penal Code does not mean "double edged", "Dirk or Dagger" means any knife that can readily be used for stabbing (all fixed blades, and any open folder), and a "Dirk or Dagger" only becomes illegal when it is concealed.

Decoligny
02-11-2010, 7:50 AM
Is that 3" for a folder in LA or only fixed blade?

Man crap like that sucks because I travel all over the state for work. How is one seriously supposed to be able to know the laws of every county, city, and hamlet they pass thru?

The 3" rule is LA County and LA City ordinances. It only applies to knives that are carried exposed. It applies to any knife with a blade 3" or over.

So, if you have an 8" folder, you can legally carry it concealed in LA County and LA City.

Liberty1
02-11-2010, 7:54 AM
Open carry of a fixed blade is completely legal under state law. There are all kinds of goofy municipal codes that can catch you, though.

--B

I would venture muni-codes applied to fixed blade dirk/daggers are pre-empted by 12020 PC. But that could be an expensive fight.

dantodd
02-11-2010, 8:03 AM
But he didn't state it was concealed. He said it was "nearly concealed":p

Partially concealed is concealed per California case law. (For guns anyway, I don't know if the same applies to knives.)

Liberty1
02-11-2010, 8:04 AM
I dislike Oceanside Police Department.

:rolleyes:
You accomplished nothing good with that statement.


However, the guy there that I deal with on OC stuff is a good guy.

Just this would have helped our cause more.


N8,
Got your message. I'm indisposed for two weeks:eek: then I will FINALLY get around to taking care of that thing...

L1

pullnshoot25
02-11-2010, 8:40 AM
:rolleyes:
You accomplished nothing good with that statement.




Just this would have helped our cause more.


N8,
Got your message. I'm indisposed for two weeks:eek: then I will FINALLY get around to taking care of that thing...

L1

I will try to be more impartial...

Awesome on "the thing." We will talk. MUahaha. ;)

Roadrunner
02-11-2010, 9:02 AM
I have one of these,

http://www.northamericanknives.com/files/1788248/uploaded/W1206.jpg

and one of these.

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/Springfield_Armory/SA_XD9_3in_lg.jpg

I wonder how silly people will think I am if I had both on my belt?

RedStripes
02-11-2010, 9:34 AM
The 3" rule is LA County and LA City ordinances. It only applies to knives that are carried exposed. It applies to any knife with a blade 3" or over.

So, if you have an 8" folder, you can legally carry it concealed in LA County and LA City.


I have always known this but always wondered why. Does anyone have a clue what the point is?

It is really annoying I can't clip my 3.5 inch kershaw. I know I could probably get away with it but I am only 19 so I don't want to give cops any more reason to hassle me.I swear there is no good reason on earth some bureaucrat should care what I do with my knives. Or my guns or any of my property. That's it I am open carrying every day and tinting my front windshield 5%. (i wish)

M1A Rifleman
02-11-2010, 10:16 AM
A slow night, as they were trolling.

It used to be that people out after 1 or 2 am was unusual (bars close at 2 etc) so it caught suspicion.

Reading the LEO report in my local paper is shows a general pattern to those they bust between the hours of 12-4am. It seems to start with a pull over for mundane issues like headlights or tail lights, or loittering and then it expands to seeing somthing leading to a search and a find. From your post, I could see they'ed right up that they spotted you loittering. ;) Good luck

MasterYong
02-11-2010, 10:56 AM
I used to carry a KABAR next-gen (the biggest one, I'm not sure they even still make it) strapped to my belt when I rode my bike around Arcata. I did a lot of mountain biking, and since the thing is about as big as you get before folks start calling your knife a machete, I always found it useful for clearing new growth off my trails...

No one ever looked at me sideways. I'm 99% sure I even went into APD to file a police report once with it on... never even heard anything about it.

I'm so glad that, despite what everyone thinks around here, the local LEOs in Humboldt aren't JBTs.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-11-2010, 12:31 PM
Ok, the knife laws here in California are quirky, but generally pretty good. Do yourself a favor and just get a folder. The quirks in the law say that if it is closed, it can not be considered an concealed weapon. Period. And while your experience with the OPD may have been annoying to you, they DID let you go when they could very well have nailed you for a felony. You had a fixed blade knife, and your shirt draped over part of it. That is a felony. It would have probably been a slam dunk for the DA to really hose you on. So while you may feel like he was being a pain in the @$$, he did cut you some slack once he figured out that you weren't one of the local denizens of the deep that lurk in that area. You know, the ones that are the reason you are carrying the knife in the first place? And he gave you some good advice on how to legally carry instead of saying that you shouldn't carry. That is a HUGE step up from most cops who would tell you not to carry anything at all, and give you some FUD about it all being illegal.

OPD has lost 2 officers in the last 10 years, both on fairly routine stops involving just one suspect. One was shot multiple times by an illegal gangbanger, the other shot from a distance while he was working a stop. So yes, they are a tad cautious. And they are usually pretty good about letting you off with warnings or fix it tickets when they can if you aren't one of the gangbanging lowlifes they have to deal with on a regular basis. I am not saying give up your rights in any way. But look at it from their point of view. A lone guy. Big. Big fixed blade knife carried partially concealed. 1 AM. High crime/gang area. You did well to be polite, and that probably played a big part in them cutting you loose and leaving the knife. Get as massive of a folder as you like, and carry that from now on, and you shouldn't have any more problems like this.

-Mb

Nor-Cal
02-11-2010, 1:40 PM
I've openly carried my Kabar all around the central valley for a while now and no problems what so ever I carry it all the time I jst get weird looks at times or " is it real" questions,

snobord99
02-11-2010, 9:16 PM
I think I recall a rather unfortunate event that happened to OPD awhile back. I think they had an officer who was shot and killed from a distance while making a routine traffic stop. They are probably a little overly cautious

I don't know about them being overly cautious because of it, but the event you speak of did happen. If I remember the date correctly, it was Dec. 16, 2006, around 9:00pm. He was shot with a .22lr rifle (I didn't find out which model specifically). The guy that fired the fatal shot was 17. The official estimate was that it was from somewhere between 386 to 392 feet away.

doorman
02-11-2010, 10:48 PM
thanks for filling me in on the details. I hope justice prevails. that is a shame.

sreiter
02-11-2010, 11:15 PM
The 3" rule is LA County and LA City ordinances. It only applies to knives that are carried exposed. It applies to any knife with a blade 3" or over.

So, if you have an 8" folder, you can legally carry it concealed in LA County and LA City.

source ?

Seesm
02-12-2010, 12:24 AM
Double edged knife is perfectly legal. There is absolutely nothing in the Penal Code making them illegal.

"Dirk or Dagger" in California Penal Code does not mean "double edged", "Dirk or Dagger" means any knife that can readily be used for stabbing (all fixed blades, and any open folder), and a "Dirk or Dagger" only becomes illegal when it is concealed.

Thing that sucks is a LEO would probably stop you if he saw a Sykes Fairburn style knife on your side... :) But that is cool to know as I had always though that was a big no no. thanks

snobord99
02-12-2010, 12:53 AM
thanks for filling me in on the details. I hope justice prevails. that is a shame.

No worries. The case is essentially over (don't know anything about if there's been an appeal or anything). There were 3 suspects. One had the charges dropped at the prelim b/c judge said there wasn't enough evidence to bind him over, the other 2 were both found guilty in separate trials. As I said, the guy that fired the fatal shot was 17 and the other guy was 16. They both got life w/o the possibility of parole (the max).

Decoligny
02-12-2010, 12:07 PM
source ?

Los Angeles County Ordinances

http://search.municode.com/html/16274/index.htm

13.62.010 Knives and daggers defined.

As used in this chapter, the terms “knives and daggers” shall include any knife having a blade of three inches or more in length; any spring-blade, switch-blade or snap-blade knife; any knife any blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical device; any ice pick or similar sharp stabbing tool; any straight-edge razor or any razor blade fitted to a handle. (Ord. 11915 § 1, 1979.)

13.62.020 Carrying knives and daggers in plain view prohibited.

It is unlawful for any person to carry on his person, in plain view, any knife or dagger. (Ord. 11915 § 2, 1979.)


Los Angeles City Municipal Code 162995

http://cityclerk.lacity.org/lacityclerkconnect/index.cfm?fa=ccfi.viewrecord&cfnumber=84-0247

This one is an embedded pdf file. It is the top file on the right hand side of the link.

These are the only LA city or county ordinances dealing with the carry of knives. If it isn't illegal by a published code or ordinance, it is LEGAL.

There is no law against carrying any concealed folding knife in LA county or city.

dirtnap
02-12-2010, 12:14 PM
It makes me wonder what will happen when we get shall issue. Will these girlie men stay in the police profession or will they run away and find something safer?


Why would they be less safe when we have shall issue? IMHO the way this comes off makes us look bad....:confused:

Desert Dude
02-12-2010, 12:26 PM
Ok, the knife laws here in California are quirky, but generally pretty good. Do yourself a favor and just get a folder. The quirks in the law say that if it is closed, it can not be considered an concealed weapon. Period. And while your experience with the OPD may have been annoying to you, they DID let you go when they could very well have nailed you for a felony. You had a fixed blade knife, and your shirt draped over part of it. That is a felony. It would have probably been a slam dunk for the DA to really hose you on. So while you may feel like he was being a pain in the @$$, he did cut you some slack once he figured out that you weren't one of the local denizens of the deep that lurk in that area. You know, the ones that are the reason you are carrying the knife in the first place? And he gave you some good advice on how to legally carry instead of saying that you shouldn't carry. That is a HUGE step up from most cops who would tell you not to carry anything at all, and give you some FUD about it all being illegal.

OPD has lost 2 officers in the last 10 years, both on fairly routine stops involving just one suspect. One was shot multiple times by an illegal gangbanger, the other shot from a distance while he was working a stop. So yes, they are a tad cautious. And they are usually pretty good about letting you off with warnings or fix it tickets when they can if you aren't one of the gangbanging lowlifes they have to deal with on a regular basis. I am not saying give up your rights in any way. But look at it from their point of view. A lone guy. Big. Big fixed blade knife carried partially concealed. 1 AM. High crime/gang area. You did well to be polite, and that probably played a big part in them cutting you loose and leaving the knife. Get as massive of a folder as you like, and carry that from now on, and you shouldn't have any more problems like this.

-Mb

Darn, I wish I had said this! It's exactally how I feel. 1+++ to you sir.
No matter where they work LEO's have a rough time of it. Go ahead, put on a badge, cinch up a gun belt and jump in a black and white. I'll bet 99% of us would change our minds after the 1st night.

OC4ME
02-12-2010, 2:27 PM
....Fixed blades must never be concealed....

Paraphrasing:

Judge to a LEO in a preliminary court appearance for a CCW violation.

Judge - "How did you know he was carrying a concealed weapon?"

LEO - "Your Honor, I saw it."

Judge - "Well, if you saw the weapon it was not concealed, case dismissed."

Now, as Ed_Hazard rightly states, know ALL of the weapons statutes state and local. Federal would not hurt either, then you know what is legal.

MasterYong
02-12-2010, 2:37 PM
Paraphrasing:

Judge to a LEO in a preliminary court appearance for a CCW violation.

Judge - "How did you know he was carrying a concealed weapon?"

LEO - "Your Honor, I saw it."

Judge - "Well, if you saw the weapon it was not concealed, case dismissed."

Now, as Ed_Hazard rightly states, know ALL of the weapons statutes state and local. Federal would not hurt either, then you know what is legal.

LOL partially concealed is concealed... the judge wont care that the LEO could see it. If you were concealing a handgun without a permit, and an LEO saw a glimpse of it, do you think the case would go the same way as you describe? No.

bubbagump
02-12-2010, 3:24 PM
You got lucky.

Not knowing the law is not an excuse.

Concealed Fixed Blade = Felony

Concealed Folding Knife in OPEN POSITION = Felony

Double-Edged = NOT ILLEGAL

653K is only relevant to AUTOMATIC KNIVES

FOLDING and FIXED BLADE KNIVES HAVE NO SIZE LIMIT PER STATE LAW

Check your Municipal Code and County Code for more knife regulations.

GuyW
02-12-2010, 3:34 PM
13.62.020 Carrying knives and daggers in plain view prohibited.

It is unlawful for any person to carry on his person, in plain view, any knife or dagger. (Ord. 11915 § 2, 1979.)



Isn't that sneaky - I wonder how many people have read this and concluded that they should conceal the knife to stay legal??
.

OC4ME
02-12-2010, 3:48 PM
LOL partially concealed is concealed... the judge wont care that the LEO could see it. If you were concealing a handgun without a permit, and an LEO saw a glimpse of it, do you think the case would go the same way as you describe? No.

Actual case here in Missouri. The language of the statute is the key to the definition of concealed.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-12-2010, 3:53 PM
Here in CA, concealed means anything that is not 100% visable 100% of the time. Anything covering any part of it is enough for some cops to nail you.

GuyW
02-12-2010, 4:02 PM
Here in CA, concealed means anything that is not 100% visable 100% of the time. Anything covering any part of it is enough for some cops to nail you.

Why do people keep posting this FUD?

A member posted the BAJI jury instructions that defined concealed (for handguns) (my paraphrase) as "SUBSTANTIALLY covered".

As a practical matter, 100% open is safest, becasue as we all should know, you can be arrested and tried in CA for LEGAL actions....
.

gun toting monkeyboy
02-12-2010, 4:16 PM
I should have clarified. As far as your average beat cop is concerned, anything not 100% visable 100% of the time is enough for them to arrest you and make your life miserable. And remember that the laws for knives are different than those dealing with firearms. IIRC the penalties for having a concealed handgun are less than those for having a concealed knife.

-Mb

Dragonaught
02-12-2010, 5:03 PM
Just a WARNING in regards to Oceanside PD They will lie on their report if it suits them.
I know this first hand when I was arrested on a Felony Charge due to their report.
This was later dropped but they flat out lied about the whole incident.

yelohamr
02-12-2010, 5:47 PM
It ain't but a tomahawk thing (http://caopencarry.blogspot.com/2009/06/it-aint-but-tomahawk-thing.html)

Thanks. If you see an old dude open carrying a tomahawk and an S&W, that will be me.

pullnshoot25
02-12-2010, 7:12 PM
Thanks. If you see an old dude open carrying a tomahawk and an S&W, that will be me.

Wait until you see what I have planned for school :)

dirtnap
02-12-2010, 8:22 PM
Wait until you see what I have planned for school :)

Pretty pink dress? ;)

gravedigger
02-12-2010, 11:48 PM
Come on guys! If OPD arrested a MARINE, legally open carrying an UNloaded pistol with practice rounds on the opposite side, on the 4th of July, walking home from the fireworks with his family, is this REALLY a surprise? The cops in OPD (some, not all) are real a-holes. They work hard to maintain that reputation.

pullnshoot25
02-13-2010, 9:32 AM
Pretty pink dress? ;)

Just to please you, I might do that :)

eccvets
02-13-2010, 8:18 PM
Why? He was doing nothing illegal. A large fixed blade, even double edged, is OK as long as it is worn openly on the belt. If it becomes concealed whether on purpose or by accident, you creep into the dirk / dagger territory.
p


no, you cant carry a double edged knife in california! dont get people arrested!

eccvets
02-13-2010, 8:19 PM
You should be more worried about municiple code violations for hours of park/beach use than the knife IMO.

true, why the f are you on a beach at 1am?

dantodd
02-13-2010, 8:29 PM
no, you cant carry a double edged knife in california! dont get people arrested!

This is wrong. Do you have ANY PC that you could cite to support this statement?

pullnshoot25
02-13-2010, 8:49 PM
no, you cant carry a double edged knife in california! dont get people arrested!

Got PC? I will bet you a new AR receiver that you are wrong.