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GrizzlyGuy
02-06-2010, 4:19 PM
From San Jose Mercury today (http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14349691):

WALNUT CREEK — Gray skies and a spattering of rain didn't dampen the enthusiasm of about 100 members of the Open Carry movement, who showed up Saturday morning displaying unloaded guns at a restaurant in downtown Walnut Creek.

The group hopes to make it easier to legally carry a loaded gun in California and has been gathering at Bay Area restaurants for the past few months. The original meeting place for Saturday was to have been nearby California Pizza Kitchen, but that company made it clear Open Carry advocates weren't welcome, so the group moved to the Buckhorn Grill.

"We're not politically involved. We're a restaurant and we're serving food," regional manager Tom McLaughlin said as he welcomed the group into his establishment. Both Peet's Coffee & Tea and California Pizza Kitchen have banned guns from their premises in response to recent requests from the national Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, while Starbucks refused the campaign's request to do so.

Not everyone in the restaurant was a member of Open Carry. Some people came from as far away as Fremont and Sausalito to learn about the group. Other patrons were dismayed when they walked in and unexpectedly encountered a restaurant full of men with pistols on one hip and ammunition on the other.

"I'm a little worried," said Hayley King, of Walnut Creek, who stopped in for lunch. "I don't feel safe in here. I wouldn't have come if I had known."

"If it's (carrying guns) not for law enforcement, it's completely wrong," said Rumer Cantrell, a Walnut Creek resident who attends Carondelet High School in Concord. "Violence should never be promoted in any way. To be walking around saying, 'You can see I have a gun,' promotes violence."

"By carrying a firearm I am creating a deterrent to violence," responded Jon Schwartz, of Livermore, an active Open Carry member who attended with his wife and baby daughter. "I hope I never have to draw my firearm in response to anyone else's actions."

Pinkie Anderson, of Sausalito, moved to California in July from Connecticut, where she had a permit to carry a concealed weapon, her Ruger .357.

"I came here to learn more about Open Carry," Anderson said.

In Connecticut, Anderson completed a weapons course and passed a background check and was automatically issued her concealed carry permit. In California, it's much harder to get such a permit, a situation Open Carry advocates want to change.

"Because of budget cuts, there are fewer police officers on the street. We feel we should be able to defend ourselves," said Emmanuel Tsompanas, of Antioch.

"How many times have you been in a restaurant when someone was holding the restaurant up?" said Griffin Dix, president of the Alameda County chapter of the Brady Campaign. "It's much more likely that someone might make a mistake, thinking the gun is unloaded when it isn't loaded, or start shooting and hit the wrong person.

"Stores should take responsibility to not allow people with guns," Dix said.

Members of the group met with Walnut Creek police before the event to have their firearms checked to make sure they were unloaded, said Capt. Tim Schultz of the Walnut Creek Police Department.

The setting for Saturday's event wasn't disclosed until Friday night on KSFO radio, some group members said.

"There was some talk on local blogs about protesters showing up with water balloons and other mischief," said Brad Huffman, an active Open Carry member. "We wanted to keep the possibility of anything going wrong to a minimum."

Ballistic043
02-06-2010, 4:29 PM
" "It's much more likely that someone might make a mistake, thinking the gun is unloaded when it isn't loaded, or start shooting and hit the wrong person."


oh, i see. someone might make a mistake. thinking that when the gun is unloaded, its not loaded.


glad you cleared that up.

yoteassasin
02-06-2010, 4:34 PM
oh the CHILDREN!!!:nopity:

bigcalidave
02-06-2010, 4:36 PM
100 people showed up? That's a pretty good turnout.

yoteassasin
02-06-2010, 4:41 PM
AND..... the news article wasn't so bad either I enjoyed the quote from the management of the buckhorn the most
i just saw the quote from the girl from Carondelet what a pile of crap. I bet they are still as ugly as they were back when I went to De La Salle ha
"Caronde-kennel"

name change
02-06-2010, 4:47 PM
These 100 people deserve our salute. :patriot:

Gryff
02-06-2010, 5:02 PM
These 100 people deserve our salute. :patriot:

I'm not sure what it gets us other than negative publicity.

yoteassasin
02-06-2010, 5:08 PM
I'm not sure what it gets us other than negative publicity.

I would't be so sure
we are all aware of the official stand down but what they are doing is commendable none the less and it appears that the tide of public perception is starting to change. if they can go virtually unmolested in WC we are in way better shape than we were in Livermore just a month ago !

Ding126
02-06-2010, 5:12 PM
"We're not politically involved. We're a restaurant and we're serving food," regional manager Tom McLaughlin said as he welcomed the group into his establishment. Both Peet's Coffee & Tea and California Pizza Kitchen have banned guns from their premises in response to recent requests from the national Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, while Starbucks refused the campaign's request to do so.

Not everyone in the restaurant was a member of Open Carry. Some people came from as far away as Fremont and Sausalito to learn about the group. Other patrons were dismayed when they walked in and unexpectedly encountered a restaurant full of men with pistols on one hip and ammunition on the other.

"I'm a little worried," said Hayley King, of Walnut Creek, who stopped in for lunch. "I don't feel safe in here. I wouldn't have come if I had known."

"If it's (carrying guns) not for law enforcement, it's completely wrong," said Rumer Cantrell, a Walnut Creek resident who attends Carondelet High School in Concord. "Violence should never be promoted in any way. To be walking around saying, 'You can see I have a gun,' promotes violence."
"By carrying a firearm I am creating a deterrent to violence," responded Jon Schwartz, of Livermore, an active Open Carry member who attended with his wife and baby daughter. "I hope I never have to draw my firearm in response to anyone else's actions."

Pinkie Anderson, of Sausalito, moved to California in July from Connecticut, where she had a permit to carry a concealed weapon, her Ruger .357.

"I came here to learn more about Open Carry," Anderson said.

In Connecticut, Anderson completed a weapons course and passed a background check and was automatically issued her concealed carry permit. In California, it's much harder to get such a permit, a situation Open Carry advocates want to change.

"Because of budget cuts, there are fewer police officers on the street. We feel we should be able to defend ourselves," said Emmanuel Tsompanas, of Antioch.

"How many times have you been in a restaurant when someone was holding the restaurant up?" said Griffin Dix, president of the Alameda County chapter of the Brady Campaign. "It's much more likely that someone might make a mistake, thinking the gun is unloaded when it isn't loaded, or start shooting and hit the wrong person.

"Stores should take responsibility to not allow people with guns," Dix said.

Members of the group met with Walnut Creek police before the event to have their firearms checked to make sure they were unloaded, said Capt. Tim Schultz of the Walnut Creek Police Department.

The setting for Saturday's event wasn't disclosed until Friday night on KSFO radio, some group members said.

"There was some talk on local blogs about protesters showing up with water balloons and other mischief," said Brad Huffman, an active Open Carry member. "We wanted to keep the possibility of anything going wrong to a minimum."

__________________

+1 Starbucks....no more California Pizza Kitchen or Pete's coffee for me.

My real concern is the negative comments and how uncomfortable people were feeling seeing a weapon..Is this movement going to help or hurt the objective?

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 5:12 PM
These 100 people deserve our salute. :patriot:

These 100 people are shortsighed and foolish.

yoteassasin
02-06-2010, 5:19 PM
These 100 people are shortsighed and foolish.

how about stomping your feet just a little more about how they won't listen to you or how stupid they are. It is time to figure out how to get along with them. we have the same end result in mind REMEMBER!

Ding126
02-06-2010, 5:21 PM
Due to the negative comments from the article

I would prefer CCW ( someday ) than open carry..just for the reason of not everyone feels comfortable seeing or being around firearms. ( less attention )

onedavetoomany
02-06-2010, 5:21 PM
These 100 people are shortsighed and foolish.

How are these types of demeaning statements beneficial to the gun rights movement as a whole? Some people may disagree with you.... it doesn't mean they are "shortsighted and foolish." Please show some respect for views other than your own.

onedavetoomany
02-06-2010, 5:26 PM
Due to the negative comments from the article

I would prefer CCW ( someday ) than open carry..just for the reason of not everyone feels comfortable seeing or being around firearms. ( less attention )

Keep in mind that the media will hunt down the few people in the store that are against open carry and publish their quote. I got far more positive reactions this afternoon than criticism. The Walnut Creek Police said they received exactly ZERO complaints from the public. That would not have happened a month ago! Public awareness is improving things even if the media acts as though everyone is still against it.

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 5:27 PM
how about stomping your feet just a little more about how they won't listen to you or how stupid they are. It is time to figure out how to get along with them. we have the same end result in mind REMEMBER!

I've offered to assist them in organizing strategic, politically-useful campaigns. No phone calls.

Sorry, it is what it is.

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 5:29 PM
How are these types of demeaning statements beneficial to the gun rights movement as a whole? Some people may disagree with you.... it doesn't mean they are "shortsighted and foolish." Please show some respect for views other than your own.

I'll show respect and appreciation to those actions worthy of it.

This isn't one of them.

I'd like it very much if these participants would stop making work for me and others; I don't enjoy playing clean-up crew. UOC would be easier to swallow if they were paying their own way, so to speak.

Gryff
02-06-2010, 5:29 PM
I would't be so sure
we are all aware of the official stand down but what they are doing is commendable none the less and it appears that the tide of public perception is starting to change. if they can go virtually unmolested in WC we are in way better shape than we were in Livermore just a month ago !

There are basically three types of attitudes towards guns. Extremely Pro, Slightly Pro or Ambivalent, and Anti. The only people who cheer UOC are the extremely pros. Most moderates are going to ask "What's the point?" and think that extremists are trying to shove their activities in everyone else's face.

How are these types of demeaning statements beneficial to the gun rights movement as a whole? Some people may disagree with you.... it doesn't mean they are "shortsighted and foolish." Please show some respect for views other than your own.

Why show respect for a movement that has a high likelihood of undermining RKBA and CCW efforts as a whole in the state? Until Incorporation, all UOC is going to achieve is increased efforts by state politicians to strip even more rights from gun owners. UOC is not going to help Incorporation, and it is not helping with CCW efforts.

SixPointEight
02-06-2010, 5:31 PM
"If it's (carrying guns) not for law enforcement, it's completely wrong," said Rumer Cantrell, a Walnut Creek resident who attends Carondelet High School in Concord. "Violence should never be promoted in any way. To be walking around saying, 'You can see I have a gun,' promotes violence."

How does having a gun promote violence? That's my question. Honestly, if person A is mad at person B, and goes over to instigate a problem, then notices that person B has a handgun strapped to their belt, I'm quite confident that person A is either changing his mind, or at least re-thinking what he's about to say.

With that said, I support May-Issue CCW over letting us UOC

onedavetoomany
02-06-2010, 5:31 PM
I've offered to assist them in organizing strategic, politically-useful campaigns..

It sounds like you were offering to assist them "stand down." Why would they call you for that?

CalNRA
02-06-2010, 5:31 PM
100 people?

The area around California Pizza Kitchen is pretty nice and safe. These people outta go UOC at a more suitable location, say International Blvd in Oakland where they might actually need it?

On the upside at least in this article they mentioned the aim of wanting to make CCW issuance more fair, unlike the last few times when all the UOCers could talk about was their right to OC without mentioning why they are forced to UOC in the first place.

Yes, yes, I know, if you live 3 hours away from Walnut Creek a CCW is easier to get.

CitaDeL
02-06-2010, 5:32 PM
100 people showed up at a restaurant to eat and it makes the news.

The only remarkable thing I believe that has caught my attention in this article is the inability of any of the anti-gun interviewees to articulate their opinion. It is as if the presence of firearms has disengaged their higher thinking processes and incomprehensible gibberish dribbles out. I suppose they could claim that they were erroneously quoted, but then that might imply the reporter was biased.

I fail to see how this could be construed as negative press. Nothing more than someone's extra sensitive feelings were hurt. There was no wild west shootout at the Buckhorn. No blood in the streets. No conspicuous display of police intervention.

There was also no organized anti-gun opposition to interfere with the demonstration. No poster board signs... No water balloons filled with red paint... No chants against the babykillers. It appears that the Brady Clan's principles end at the ENTER key on their keyboard and musters only enough initiative to threaten a boycott by telephone and email. Im sure the Buckhorn is counting out their till tonight just like they do each closing.

Someone came to witness the event and to learn about open carry... this is significant- The numbers are growing and we have the media to thank for its repeated 2 minutes of free advertizing. Its a shame that this couldnt be used in some way to spread the word about Calguns. Ooops- it has, though just once on a radio program... But then, there is the issue of the absence of a 'open carry' information forum.

This wave of media around open carry hasnt yet subsided- so there is still time to promote Calguns, and bring more like-minded gun owners into our fold. We just need to be prepared when they show up.

Alaric
02-06-2010, 5:34 PM
"There was some talk on local blogs about protesters showing up with water balloons and other mischief," said Brad Huffman, an active Open Carry member.

Who in their right mind brings a water balloon to a gun fight? Oh, wait...

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 5:34 PM
It sounds like you were offering to assist them "stand down." Why would they call you for that?

No, I've offered to help them "stand up".

onedavetoomany
02-06-2010, 5:35 PM
I'll show respect and appreciation to those actions worthy of it..

Thats too bad. Are you planning on being respectful at the UOC / Calgunner BBQ that Oaklander is planning? Sounds like I'm wasting my time if this is an attitude typical of Calgunners....

bballwizard05
02-06-2010, 5:41 PM
Thats too bad. Are you planning on being respectful at the UOC / Calgunner BBQ that Oaklander is planning? Sounds like I'm wasting my time if this is an attitude typical of Calgunners....

Plz dont let what he says represent ALL calgunners in your mind.

CalNRA
02-06-2010, 5:43 PM
Thats too bad. Are you planning on being respectful at the UOC / Calgunner BBQ that Oaklander is planning? Sounds like I'm wasting my time if this is an attitude typical of Calgunners....

ahem...

No, I've offered to help them "stand up".

yoteassasin
02-06-2010, 5:43 PM
Thats too bad. Are you planning on being respectful at the UOC / Calgunner BBQ that Oaklander is planning? Sounds like I'm wasting my time if this is an attitude typical of Calgunners....

obviously you are both passionate about your cause. There needs to be a little more mutual respect between these 2 groups and both are at fault. I think today may be a turning point in uoc and how it is perceived in public eye. Oaklander's BBQ will be a big deal regarding both groups coming to terms with each other BUT EGO's will need to be left behind if it is to go any where. may i suggest we argue facts and leave the feelings and opinions for the brady bunch

onedavetoomany
02-06-2010, 5:43 PM
Plz dont let what he says represent ALL calgunners in your mind.

I definitely won't. Oaklander and I spoke on the phone and had a great conversation. Many of you seem like great people!

onedavetoomany
02-06-2010, 5:46 PM
obviously you are both passionate about your cause. There needs to be a little more mutual respect between these 2 groups and both are at fault. I think today may be a turning point in uoc and how it is perceived in public eye. Oaklander's BBQ will be a big deal regarding both groups coming to terms with each other BUT EGO's will need to be left behind if it is to go any where. may i suggest we argue facts and leave the feelings and opinions for the brady bunch

Just for the record, I have never seen UOCers making personal attacks on Calgunners... My goal is to discourage the bashing. It doesn't get us anywhere!

bballwizard05
02-06-2010, 5:47 PM
I definitely won't. Oaklander and I spoke on the phone and had a great conversation. Many of you seem like great people!


Wildhawker is too. Gun people are by nature more conservative, and conservative people tend to be more stubborn (IN A GOOD WAY) :) but it's only because all of us gun enthusiasts care to see change. I live way to far away to go to the BBQ, but hopefully like stated above, ego's can be set aside for a greater cause. Our freedom.

Fissssh
02-06-2010, 5:50 PM
Just watched the news and I would say it was a wash, not too negative and not very positive. I'm just waiting for the nut case anti's in my family to start calling. From what I saw it just looked foolish but I'm from a different era, back when we had more gun rights.

Telperion
02-06-2010, 5:51 PM
I'll show respect and appreciation to those actions worthy of it.

This isn't one of them.

I'd like it very much if these participants would stop making work for me and others; I don't enjoy playing clean-up crew. UOC would be easier to swallow if they were paying their own way, so to speak.

Who crowned you king? Contrast your tone to that of Gene (here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3761230&postcount=1)). Maybe that's why they aren't calling you.

The more personal you make this ("OCers are foolish" vs. "OC is foolish") the harder it is going to be to reconnect with these people post-incorporation.

B Strong
02-06-2010, 5:52 PM
Griffin Dix lost in the wrongful death suit against Beretta, so he's dedicated himself to making life misreable for gun owners.

Sad thing to lose a son, but there is no collective guilt statute.

Anothercoilgun
02-06-2010, 6:05 PM
People foolish for doing what you should have done. Nice.

JeffM
02-06-2010, 6:11 PM
how about stomping your feet just a little more about how they won't listen to you or how stupid they are. It is time to figure out how to get along with them. we have the same end result in mind REMEMBER!


The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Bad decisions by soldiers, officers, and politicians have lost wars, despite having "the same end result in mind" as the people who know better...

100 idiots are still idiots despite being on "my side"

Some people just don't understand that good ideas sometimes aren't.

G17GUY
02-06-2010, 6:12 PM
Who crowned you king? Contrast your tone to that of Gene (here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3761230&postcount=1)). Maybe that's why they aren't calling you.

The more personal you make this ("OCers are foolish" vs. "OC is foolish") the harder it is going to be to reconnect with these people post-incorporation.

They keep it up and they will all be limited to bananas. You want to join?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=259774&highlight=open+carry

And who says they are not nuts?

Alaric
02-06-2010, 6:20 PM
This thread is full of fundamental attribution error (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error).

larnfow
02-06-2010, 6:59 PM
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=7261522

I saw this last night at 11pm.... Brady Bunch Infomercial?

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 7:12 PM
Thats too bad. Are you planning on being respectful at the UOC / Calgunner BBQ that Oaklander is planning? Sounds like I'm wasting my time if this is an attitude typical of Calgunners....

Of course I'll be respectful. And I'll be there. Hope you will be, too. We can be civil and disagree.

Blue
02-06-2010, 7:17 PM
Walnut Creek is a bunch of fuddy duddys. Livermore is more of the same, only more of a working class town. How come they never open carry in a city that actually has crime?

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 7:21 PM
Who crowned you king? Contrast your tone to that of Gene (here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3761230&postcount=1)). Maybe that's why they aren't calling you.

The more personal you make this ("OCers are foolish" vs. "OC is foolish") the harder it is going to be to reconnect with these people post-incorporation.

A foolish act repeated is a sure sign of a foolish actor. We've all had many tones and taken many tacts in this [ongoing] debate; it's amusing that you selectively choose your character reference for me.

I've talked at length and on many occasions with many pro-UOC folks, and enjoyed many wonderful and thoughtful conversations as well as brainstorming sessions. Note that nearly all of these proponents (if not entirely all) have elected to suspend UOC events until we can actually use them to benefit gun rights. We're seeing the old bull and young bull here and at OCDO, with a new generation of UOC participants currently [ignorantly] carrying the torch in spite of the wisdom to the contrary.

You'll understand when I say that I'm severely concerned about this new generation of UOC participant/advocate that refuses assistance offered in good faith and with the interests of all gun owners at heart.

ETA: I'm further amused about the "reconnecting" comment. When those who are actually being productive in the gun rights movement are successful in and post-incorporation efforts there will be no need to "reconnect"; gun rights culture will simply exist to whatever degree we wish to be so. UOC will either be banned or not, and they will be free to participate as may be allowed by law. LOC in CA is no longer a second-level goal as it's been precluded by the Legislature. What do we need to "re-connect" for? For that matter, where are they when we need them for productive efforts *now*? Some have made a decision to refocus their efforts and fight strategically; pity that their wisdom appears to be lost on the UOCers of today.

Hopi
02-06-2010, 7:35 PM
A foolish act repeated is a sure sign of a foolish actor. .


To be fair, maybe we should just ask those whom are championing and engaging in foolish behavior, what they'd prefer to be called.


We are running out of ways to skin this cat.

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 7:37 PM
To be fair, maybe we should just ask those whom are championing and engaging in foolish behavior, what they'd prefer to be called.

We are running out of ways to skin this cat.

I'm game for that, and I'd prefer that we not simply equate 'UOC advocate' with 'fool' as I know many Open Carry advocates who are unquestionably not foolish and do not deserve it.

Telperion
02-06-2010, 7:45 PM
I'm concerned as much and for the same reasons. Are these people OCDO? What other groups have you talked to that agreed to suspend these events? There seem to be some people (Pinkie Anderson, of Sausalito, moved to California in July from Connecticut, where she had a permit to carry a concealed weapon, her Ruger .357. "I came here to learn more about Open Carry," Anderson said.) who may not familiar with CGF's concerns, and attacking these people off the bat is not my idea of good politics. YMMV

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 7:53 PM
Generally, yes on OCDO but I know some are spinning off into new groups (some were/are part of the MinuteMen movement in SoCal).

jdberger
02-06-2010, 8:00 PM
Griffin Dix lost in the wrongful death suit against Beretta, so he's dedicated himself to making life misreable for gun owners.

Sad thing to lose a son, but there is no collective guilt statute.

A teeny more here on Griffon Dix (http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-12-24/bay-area/17520806_1_michael-soe-beretta-usa-griffin-dix).

Dix was killed while at the home of Michael Soe, then 14, who wanted to show Dix his father's handgun, a Beretta Model 92 semiautomatic pistol. Soe removed the loaded magazine and, not realizing there was a bullet in the chamber, fired at Dix, killing the Berkeley High freshman with a bullet through the heart.

Tragic.

Roadrunner
02-06-2010, 8:10 PM
No, I've offered to help them "stand up".

Actually it sounds to me like you are pouting because they didn't take your offer. In that case, you need to lighten up because it sounds personal.

Steyr_223
02-06-2010, 8:14 PM
The 100 UOC folks should try in this area next..

http://www.sfgate.com/maps/oaklandhomicides/

Roadrunner
02-06-2010, 8:19 PM
The 100 UOC folks should try in this area next..

http://www.sfgate.com/maps/oaklandhomicides/

I'm just wondering how many of them are ganstas.

Hopi
02-06-2010, 8:19 PM
Actually it sounds to me like you are pouting because they didn't take your offer. In that case, you need to lighten up because it sounds personal.

When another persons' behavior negatively impacts you personally, you tend to take it personally.

Roadrunner
02-06-2010, 8:26 PM
When another persons' behavior negatively impacts you personally, you tend to take it personally.

I'm a gun owner, should I take it personally? I have no problem with the UOCers. If I lived in Urbania, I might consider UOC. I chose instead to move to a more rural locale and enjoy the freedom away from violence. Unfortunately, the politicians in Urbania haven't the good sense to see that banning or restricting an inanimate object does nothing to reduce violent crime. Truly that's the definition of insanity being displayed at its worst.

Hopi
02-06-2010, 8:31 PM
I'm a gun owner, should I take it personally? I have no problem with the UOCers. If I lived in Urbania, I might consider UOC. I chose instead to move to a more rural locale and enjoy the freedom away from violence. Unfortunately, the politicians in Urbania haven't the good sense to see that banning or restricting an inanimate object does nothing to reduce violent crime. Truly that's the definition of insanity being displayed at its worst.


Not everybody has the luxurious option of retreating. Everybody should have the protections of our civil rights.

Take it personally or not, one day those civil liberties that you claim to enjoy by method of retreat might be civil liberties that you need help to secure. If/when that day comes, I'm sure you'll want a winning team with a winning strategy in your corner......

Roadrunner
02-06-2010, 8:46 PM
Not everybody has the luxurious option of retreating. Everybody should have the protections of our civil rights.

Take it personally or not, one day those civil liberties that you claim to enjoy by method of retreat might be civil liberties that you need help to secure. If/when that day comes, I'm sure you'll want a winning team with a winning strategy in your corner......

Backup chief, I, unlike others here, support the UOCers decision to legally carry their firearms into places that seem to be tacitly supporting, or at least not restricting their legal option to bear arms in public. My choice to move here occurred long before UOC became popular and when it was apparent that L.A. city was intent on making as many victims as criminals could create. So piss off dude, I still live in California and I am still enduring the same B.S. laws as everyone else.

Swiss
02-06-2010, 8:50 PM
I wish people would stop suggesting they go to more crime-ridden areas to UOC. As everyone knows, that has the potential to turn into a huge problem for all gun owners. Better they stick to areas where the political statement (and that's all it is) can be made in peace.


The 100 UOC folks should try in this area next..

http://www.sfgate.com/maps/oaklandhomicides/

Roadrunner
02-06-2010, 8:52 PM
I wish people would stop suggesting they go to more crime-ridden areas to UOC. As everyone knows, that has the potential to turn into a huge problem for all gun owners. Better they stick to areas where the political statement (and that's all it is) can be made in peace.

+1!!!

ivanimal
02-06-2010, 8:59 PM
So piss off dude, .

I guess you dont wish to stay here.

Hopi
02-06-2010, 9:06 PM
Backup chief, I, unlike others here, support the UOCers decision to legally carry their firearms into places that seem to be tacitly supporting, or at least not restricting their legal option to bear arms in public. My choice to move here occurred long before UOC became popular and when it was apparent that L.A. city was intent on making as many victims as criminals could create. So piss off dude, I still live in California and I am still enduring the same B.S. laws as everyone else.

The irony of your post is that your support *right now* of these open carry demonstrations has the very real outcome for all of us enduring the pragmatic prohibitions on carry for much longer than we need to. If masochism is your thing, please know that other gunnies don't share your pleasure enduring this real-world problem.


You can call me chief, or dude, or whatever, but I'd much rather you and the rest of the UOC advocates do it from the sidelines while the wining team continues to march the ball up the field.

maddoggie13
02-06-2010, 9:08 PM
I was there with my Glock 26...at least 100 people were there. :43: Lot of great people and fun...this is my 1st UOC and will not be my last.

Dark Paladin
02-06-2010, 9:12 PM
With that said, I support May-Issue CCW over letting us UOC

Uhh. . . I think you meant SHALL-issue, right?

Vinz
02-06-2010, 9:19 PM
I hope this doesn't put political pressure on these restruants. Which would not be fair as they have to operate and make money.

I hope at least they had made arrangments with the owner.
Walnut Creek hummm?
vinz

Paragun
02-06-2010, 9:31 PM
If it wasn't for news stories like this I would have never found this site. I never believe only one story, I search, read, and listen. I feel it is necessary to show support for these people and the message they are spreading. Otherwise no one would ever hear it.

I never really cared about the constitution before, or our rights. I thought the elected officials were working for us with good intensions. I thought "we" were governed by the constitution, but now I realize that the government is governed by the constitution. All because of stories like this and the class in U.S. history 101 at Palomar.

Roadrunner
02-06-2010, 10:07 PM
The irony of your post is that your support *right now* of these open carry demonstrations has the very real outcome for all of us enduring the pragmatic prohibitions on carry for much longer than we need to. If masochism is your thing, please know that other gunnies don't share your pleasure enduring this real-world problem.


You can call me chief, or dude, or whatever, but I'd much rather you and the rest of the UOC advocates do it from the sidelines while the wining team continues to march the ball up the field.

Considering the fact that MacDonald has the very real possibility of bringing 2A back to everyone of us in less than 5 months, I have some very serious doubts that, contrary to what we've seen with 962, the legislators will ram a bill through that repeals the 12025(f) section. If for some reason the supreme court chooses to not incorporate the 2A (from what I hear, that's highly unlikely), then it probably won't matter because that will pretty much give them carte blanc to do what they please with firearms laws and restrictions. Look at it this way, if MacDonald loses, the UOCers are having the last hurra, before we see some real draconian gun laws get enacted. And you know what, it won't be because of them.

Lastly, I might add we are all on the same "team". If you however want to distinguish yourself in someway elitist way from the rest of the community, be my guest. But I support anyone who is pro2A, and will not condemn anyone that is working legally toward the goal of reestablishing our 2A rights in this backward state.

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 10:19 PM
Roadrunner, is Gary Gorski or Richard Hamblen on your team?

Roadrunner
02-06-2010, 10:20 PM
Roadrunner, is Gary Gorski or Richard Hamblen on your team?

Uh, no. Is Sarah Brady on yours?

Hopi
02-06-2010, 10:36 PM
Lastly, I might add we are all on the same "team". If you however want to distinguish yourself in someway elitist way from the rest of the community, be my guest. But I support anyone who is pro2A, and will not condemn anyone that is working legally toward the goal of reestablishing our 2A rights in this backward state.

Excerpted as the only point worth responding to.

If you'd been paying attention, you'd note that there are two distinct points of view on this topic. Yes, we are on the same 'team' in the sense that we all want to restore as much of the true intent of the 2a as possible, both in CA and nationally. However, there are two very different teams when it comes to strategy and execution...... and two distinctly different track records of success, or lack thereof.

One team has an impressive track record of winning. They have outlined a clear legal strategy that includes comprehensive planning and educated action.

The other team has a conspicuous absence of victories. They count among their ranks folks that are now prohibited persons due to this activity, and folks that are too new to the gun rights community to even be considered green. Further, their activity has directly resulted in multiple businesses taking public anti-2a stances leading them to roll out prohibitive corp policy specifically addressing this activism. Both of those outcomes were warned against by the first team, go figure. Both of those outcomes certainly don't help any of us in the gun community.



It's wise to recognize the difference between the time to drive and the time to ride as a passenger.

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 10:45 PM
Lastly, I might add we are all on the same "team". If you however want to distinguish yourself in someway elitist way from the rest of the community, be my guest. But I support anyone who is pro2A, and will not condemn anyone that is working legally toward the goal of reestablishing our 2A rights in this backward state.

Roadrunner, is Gary Gorski or Richard Hamblen on your team?

Uh, no. Is Sarah Brady on yours?

Is 'Sarah Brady' a euphemism for 'misguided and/or misinformed gun advocate'?

In all seriousness, why wouldn't Gary Gorski (who, at his core, is passionate about gun rights) be on your team? Maybe because he's passionate yet arrogant, active and incapable enough to cause damage to the very right he seeks to promote?

And there I was thinking that we were all on the same team. I guess it's ok to be an 'elitist' after all.

oaklander
02-06-2010, 10:47 PM
Folks, I am not going to weigh in on this thread except to say that it is great anytime we can get 100 law-abiding gun owners in one place. That being said, I will invite the new UOCers to read up on the current thinking on UOC (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=267046).

Also we urgently need support from the PRO gun community here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=266833

If we could get 100 well-dressed pro-gun men and women for THAT event, it would be EPIC.

:D

technique
02-06-2010, 10:56 PM
Folks, I am not going to weigh in on this thread except to say that it is great anytime we can get 100 law-abiding gun owners in one place. That being said, I will invite the new UOCers to read up on the current thinking on UOC (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=267046).

Also we urgently need support from the PRO gun community here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=266833

If we could get 100 well-dressed pro-gun men and women for THAT event, it would be EPIC.

:D

Good job, Oak.
I agree, 100 pro gunners in one place at one time is a good thing.
I hope those same people show up for support (well dressed), that would be a positive exchange.

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 10:56 PM
But that is actual grassroots political *work* which might be strategically useful. I'd rather drink coffee and eat burgers with an unloaded gun on my hip. :rolleyes:

Folks, I am not going to weigh in on this thread except to say that it is great anytime we can get 100 law-abiding gun owners in one place. That being said, I will invite the new UOCers to read up on the current thinking on UOC (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=267046).

Also we urgently need support from the PRO gun community here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=266833

If we could get 100 well-dressed pro-gun men and women for THAT event, it would be EPIC.

:D

demnogis
02-06-2010, 11:01 PM
What we understand is that you're upset that a new round of pro-rights advocates didn't come to you for permission first.

Did you stop and think that these 85+ or so people don't know about Calguns, let alone you?

You're so quick to be condescending of these people wishing to engage in their lives (albeit, armed in accordance with the law), but I don't recall you chiming in, saying "I'll be there, telling these guys about CG and why they should wait for incorporation!" on any of the threads, websites or other methods of outreach.

And please, don't play the "I wasn't invited" card. Open Carry event invitations are extended to everyone. Even those who disagree.

[...]
You'll understand when I say that I'm severely concerned about this new generation of UOC participant/advocate that refuses assistance offered in good faith and with the interests of all gun owners at heart.[...]

CalNRA
02-06-2010, 11:05 PM
What we understand is that you're upset that a new round of pro-rights advocates didn't come to you for permission first.

Did you stop and think that these 85+ or so people don't know about Calguns, let alone you?

You're so quick to be condescending of these people wishing to engage in their lives (albeit, armed in accordance with the law), but I don't recall you chiming in, saying "I'll be there, telling these guys about CG and why they should wait for incorporation!" on any of the threads, websites or other methods of outreach.


ahem...

I've offered to assist them in organizing strategic, politically-useful campaigns. No phone calls.

Sorry, it is what it is.

sounds like he put himself out there offering advice and help and they went ahead and did what they did.

Just saying...

oaklander
02-06-2010, 11:14 PM
Dave has contacted me and he is going to outreach to the OCDO community to rally some of their troops for the Oakland City Council Meeting.

This is a step in the right direction, and while we can agree to disagree, I think it is great that these folks are willing to step forward and help out on this important issue.

I think part of the situation here is that a lot of these guys (and gals) are totally new to the 2A political scene. That being said, it behooves us to educate them (nicely) and welcome them here.

While my UOC opinions are well-known - that doesn't prevent me from working with OCDO on issues like the upcoming Oakland City Council Meeting on the 16th.

To the extent that we can ALL work together, even if it's just on a few issues, we serve as a force-multiplier to each other.

CABilly
02-06-2010, 11:14 PM
"How many times have you been in a restaurant when someone was holding the restaurant up?" said Griffin Dix, president of the Alameda County chapter of the Brady Campaign. "It's much more likely that someone might make a mistake, thinking the gun is unloaded when it isn't loaded, or start shooting and hit the wrong person.


Man, people have short memories. Wasn't it just a year or so ago when the East Bay was plagued with a rash of restaurant take-overs and robberies?

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 11:14 PM
What we understand is that you're upset that a new round of pro-rights advocates didn't come to you for permission first. Did you stop and think that these 85+ or so people don't know about Calguns, let alone you?

I'm not asking for them to contact *me* (although they can if they'd like). I'm asking them to contact *we*. I know that Adnan Shahab, the man quoted in this (http://www.ktvu.com/news/22489381/detail.html)new KTVU article, is a member here, started a number of threads on the issue and is using UOC to further his personal political aspirations (http://www.shahab2010.com/). All of the participants might not know about Calguns or our concerns, but enough of them do.

You're so quick to be condescending of these people wishing to engage in their lives (albeit, armed in accordance with the law), but I don't recall you chiming in, saying "I'll be there, telling these guys about CG and why they should wait for incorporation!" on any of the threads, websites or other methods of outreach.

Don't you feel even slightly responsible to pass along the caution and basis for it being an active participant at OCDO, or are you that adept at playing Pilat? Where's the OC community looking after its own? Once again, OC shows little interest in taking responsibility for its actions.

And please, don't play the "I wasn't invited" card. Open Carry event invitations are extended to everyone. Even those who disagree.

Want me to show up and discuss it? Sure. I've offered to meet for coffee (even offered to buy the coffee); say, Starbucks? I can be contacted at wildhawker at gmail dot com or via phone (PM for it).

wildhawker
02-06-2010, 11:18 PM
Man, people have short memories. Wasn't it just a year or so ago when the East Bay was plagued with a rash of restaurant take-overs and robberies?

According to crime statistics we have from City of Oakland sources, it seems such crimes haven't gone away, either.

Hooligan
02-06-2010, 11:52 PM
I don't get the "us" versus "them". We are all gun owners/users that are seeking the same end result. The way I see it, CGF and the ULOC groups are going at it two different ways.

CGF is working on their goal through the political and judicial systems. Trying to convince the politicians such silly laws are illegal/unneeded.

ULOC groups are grassroots, being seen and heard by the general population (otherwise knowns as citizens). They are trying to convince the people that such silly laws are illegal/unneeded. In turn the people will stop calling their legislators to enact stupid laws.

CGF is working towards, and hoping for, incorporation, in which case the ULOC work may be moot. The ULOC groups are working on their goals in case incorporation does not happen. Kind of like plan A and plan B. Seems to make sense in my book. I can't fathom how the ULOC activities are going to have any affect on the Supreme Court's decision, either negatively or positively. But if done correctly (which it seems they are), they can positively affect the thoughts of California citizens.

There must something that can link this one goal, instead of the condescending, "you are going to mess it up for all us" attitude that this thread quickly went to.

spddrcr
02-06-2010, 11:54 PM
While at first i applauded most of the open carry people when it really started picking up in the last year or 2 and i even called pullnshoot out on some stuff on his blog and he was more then happy to discuss what i had brought up through email and even invited me to get ahold of him next time i was down south but now we really are moving into new territory with uninformed and ignorant people in the UOC movement IMO. Originally i really did believe in the UOC movement as a way to get real CCW laws passed but it seems it is now turning into groups of people who when asked why they do it respond with "cause i can" instead of giving a proper explanation of what they are trying to acomplish in the long run.
why cant people look at the past that has repeated itself over and over and relize that it will once again repeat itself if the same actions are taken as every other time it has repeated itself? when UOC is outlawed and regulated by some political figure looking to further his career more then anything else who will the UOC advocates blame at that time? I know who i will blame.

and on an end note how in the hell could this ever help anyone's cause? the poster over at the claycord.com blog is having a field day with this one. you guys that were there today might think big deal but this blog is followed by a lot of influential political people in the city's it covers and tends to be a feeder for the local news stations and their website as they tend to get the news first. so please reflect on this picture below and tell me how this could ever help your cause, im sure we will be seeing it on news websites before the weekend is over.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6UrU7wMTQxY/S24SMoJ5kRI/AAAAAAAAZQM/z0k9pkD-6Rw/7.jpg

spddrcr
02-06-2010, 11:59 PM
I don't get the "us" versus "them". We are all gun owners/users that are seeking the same end result. The way I see it, CGF and the ULOC groups are going at it two different ways.

CGF is working on their goal through the political and judicial systems. Trying to convince the politicians such silly laws are illegal/unneeded.

ULOC groups are grassroots, being seen and heard by the general population (otherwise knowns as citizens). They are trying to convince the people that such silly laws are illegal/unneeded. In turn the people will stop calling their legislators to enact stupid laws.

CGF is working towards, and hoping for, incorporation, in which case the ULOC work may be moot. The ULOC groups are working on their goals in case incorporation does not happen. Kind of like plan A and plan B. Seems to make sense in my book. I can't fathom how the ULOC activities are going to have any affect on the Supreme Court's decision, either negatively or positively. But if done correctly (which it seems they are), they can positively affect the thoughts of California citizens.

There must something that can link this one goal, instead of the condescending, "you are going to mess it up for all us" attitude that this thread quickly went to.

please check out claycord.com the blog that has done quite a bit of reporting on the UOC movement in the area where todays event was held, they tend to get a pretty good response from members of the community and from the comments being made i think it's safe to say YOUR GOING TO MESS IT ALL UP FOR US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CalNRA
02-07-2010, 12:23 AM
I know that Adnan Shahab, the man quoted in this (http://www.ktvu.com/news/22489381/detail.html)new KTVU article, is a member here, started a number of threads on the issue and is using UOC to further his personal political aspirations (http://www.shahab2010.com/).


what is...his deal? Is he using the UOC thing to get media exposure?

wildhawker
02-07-2010, 12:46 AM
what is...his deal? Is he using the UOC thing to get media exposure?

I have some beliefs about Mr. Shahab's ultimate interests but will remain silent on them until after the election.

zum
02-07-2010, 1:01 AM
Im a gun owner and also grew up around guns, and i must say that im just not feeling this OC stuff.

really, what is the point? IMO your not only looking like a gun NUT but also... say someone with a gun does enter the local denny's as your paying and notices your armed as he walks in brandishing his weapon, id say your as good as dead and being that most criminals are bad shots maybe someone else is going to catch a round.

now had you not been OPENLY CARRYING chances are the crackhead would have just brandished a weapon, demanded that the register be emptied out and been on his way, with the cops hot on his tail.

:flame suit ON!:

so yes IMO openly carrying is dangerous! and yes id prefer people do this with a CCW but...

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 7:09 AM
Excerpted as the only point worth responding to.

If you'd been paying attention, you'd note that there are two distinct points of view on this topic. Yes, we are on the same 'team' in the sense that we all want to restore as much of the true intent of the 2a as possible, both in CA and nationally. However, there are two very different teams when it comes to strategy and execution...... and two distinctly different track records of success, or lack thereof.

One team has an impressive track record of winning. They have outlined a clear legal strategy that includes comprehensive planning and educated action.

The other team has a conspicuous absence of victories. They count among their ranks folks that are now prohibited persons due to this activity, and folks that are too new to the gun rights community to even be considered green. Further, their activity has directly resulted in multiple businesses taking public anti-2a stances leading them to roll out prohibitive corp policy specifically addressing this activism. Both of those outcomes were warned against by the first team, go figure. Both of those outcomes certainly don't help any of us in the gun community.

It's wise to recognize the difference between the time to drive and the time to ride as a passenger.

You want to be a snob and make asinine comments, knock yourself out. As for the little bit I can glean from your post, you conveniently left some things out. Yeah, Peets and the California Pizza Kitchen have said no to guns, but Starbucks and Buckhorn grill have no problem with it. But of course, Disneyland said no to firearms long before UOC began its campaign just as a lot of the malls and shopping centers have had "NO FIREARMS" signs. Just to name a few. I remember "Horton Plaza" in San Diego having "NO FIREARMS" signs posted around the mall back in the 80's. I know Victoria Gardens in Rancho Cucamonga, had "NO FIREARMS" signs before UOC took hold. West Covina Fashion Plaza has prohibited firearms in their mall since the 70's, and I remember "NO FIREARMS" signs posted at the "Beverly Center" long before anyone considered UOC. In fact, if you had been paying attention, restaurants and private businesses in SHALL ISSUE states are posting "NO FIREARMS" signs in their windows as well. So to suggest that UOCers are somehow screwing things up is ludicrous.

Now, as for people getting jacked up by police who seem to "enforce" laws without obtaining the knowledge of those laws first, or getting nailed by uninformed jurors who may have been given erroneous information in which to make a decision, that's unfortunate, and I hope his attorney gets his conviction overturned. As for the 74 year old guy who ignorantly UOCed into a school zone, that's equally unfortunate, and I hope his attorney deals with it. However, to date, a majority of UOCers are doing it safely and within the law, and I think making some headway based on the vids that I've watched thus far. The Brady's are certainly squawking about it, no surprise there. But the thing that's most disappointing is the noise I hear from people like you and Wildhawker. You make these claims that OH MY GOD, THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE MORE TROUBLE FOR US! Or you arrogantly suggest that that the UOCers are going to make a mess for YOU to clean up. Well I know of at least one poster on this thread that wouldn't have discovered Calguns if it wasn't for the UOCers standing in the gap. As for the prohibited persons you mention......let's count them......1......2, the 74 year old guy, not necessarily a UOC activist...........is there a 3? I suppose you could count the criminals that are illegally carrying illegally obtained firearms on their persons, but of course they aren't (U)nloaded or are they (O)pen (C)arried.

I have a great deal of respect for Gene Hoffman, Don Kilmer, Alan Gura, Chuck Michel, Oaklander and their support staff who are busting their tails to put the 2A back into the hands of every American that chooses to bear arms for self defense, but I will not condemn the UOCers, because I liken them to the patriots at Lexington and Concord who are willing to stand up and draw a line in the sand and say to government "This far and no further". I tip my hat to those guys who are willing to put up with the humiliation from police who over step their bounds each time they handcuff a UOCer just to do an "e" check of their firearms, as if they are dangerous criminals who need to be restrained. As I have said countless times, I don't UOC because I don't feel the need in my community and I believe it would be counterproductive to the 2A cause. However, those that are doing it in Urbania where there is violent crime and no way to defend yourself from violent attack, have a point and I support their decision.

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 7:22 AM
Is 'Sarah Brady' a euphemism for 'misguided and/or misinformed gun advocate'?

Not at all. You just seem to be making the same noise as her.

In all seriousness, why wouldn't Gary Gorski (who, at his core, is passionate about gun rights) be on your team? Maybe because he's passionate yet arrogant, active and incapable enough to cause damage to the very right he seeks to promote?

And there I was thinking that we were all on the same team. I guess it's ok to be an 'elitist' after all.

From what I've read of Gorski, he stumbles around like a blind man in a lighted room. The UOCers are simply exercising their right to bear arms well within the confines of the law. So suggesting that because I support UOCers, I must support Gorski is really reaching for a snide comment. Seriously.

pullnshoot25
02-07-2010, 9:11 AM
It sounds like you were offering to assist them "stand down." Why would they call you for that?

Actually, Wildhawker has been instrumental for bringing people together and helping out the OC movement.

100 people?

The area around California Pizza Kitchen is pretty nice and safe. These people outta go UOC at a more suitable location, say International Blvd in Oakland where they might actually need it?

On the upside at least in this article they mentioned the aim of wanting to make CCW issuance more fair, unlike the last few times when all the UOCers could talk about was their right to OC without mentioning why they are forced to UOC in the first place.

Yes, yes, I know, if you live 3 hours away from Walnut Creek a CCW is easier to get.

The point is to do a POLITICAL protest, not engage in a friggin GUNFIGHT. THe point is to associate guns with good guys, not provoke an opportunity to use them. I love the "if you guys had balls" arguments that pervade this site. While I do not agree with a lot of the UOC activities at the moment, I will say that they all at least have a pair, unlike some of the degenerate keyboard commandos on this site.

Thats too bad. Are you planning on being respectful at the UOC / Calgunner BBQ that Oaklander is planning? Sounds like I'm wasting my time if this is an attitude typical of Calgunners....

Why wouldn't he be? The man is a very brief 7x57. :)

Wildhawker is too. Gun people are by nature more conservative, and conservative people tend to be more stubborn (IN A GOOD WAY) :) but it's only because all of us gun enthusiasts care to see change. I live way to far away to go to the BBQ, but hopefully like stated above, ego's can be set aside for a greater cause. Our freedom.

Agreed.

Who crowned you king? Contrast your tone to that of Gene (here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3761230&postcount=1)). Maybe that's why they aren't calling you.

The more personal you make this ("OCers are foolish" vs. "OC is foolish") the harder it is going to be to reconnect with these people post-incorporation.

Yeah, he has done alot more than just pissing on anthills. Ask me how I know that.

They keep it up and they will all be limited to bananas. You want to join?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=259774&highlight=open+carry

And who says they are not nuts?

You mentioned bananas and nuts in the same post. FTW :)

Actually it sounds to me like you are pouting because they didn't take your offer. In that case, you need to lighten up because it sounds personal.

No, he is just pointing out that stupid is as stupid does. I have offered advice as well on many of these outings and my advice has been ignored as well.

I'm just wondering how many of them are ganstas.

Probably not many, if any at all.

Im a gun owner and also grew up around guns, and i must say that im just not feeling this OC stuff.

really, what is the point? IMO your not only looking like a gun NUT but also... say someone with a gun does enter the local denny's as your paying and notices your armed as he walks in brandishing his weapon, id say your as good as dead and being that most criminals are bad shots maybe someone else is going to catch a round.

now had you not been OPENLY CARRYING chances are the crackhead would have just brandished a weapon, demanded that the register be emptied out and been on his way, with the cops hot on his tail.

:flame suit ON!:

so yes IMO openly carrying is dangerous! and yes id prefer people do this with a CCW but...

Te Bigger Tool Company is missing an employee. Report back immediately.

/personal opinion follows.

While I do not agree with some of the shenanigans going on in the OC community and I have very little time to actually care about or write stuff about it, I will say that a HUNDRED PEOPLE is a friggin AMAZING turnout, especially considering the fact that I had pretty much no idea that this one was brewing, and I consider myself to be on top of the OC thing most of the time. The most I got was 60 (even though I expected 100) and that was through heavy publicizing. On that aspect, kudos.

As far as all the comments about "people getting pissy" and whatnot in regards to the response of Wildhawker & Co. to the seemingly typical UOC bullheadedness, I will say that while I love the zest, zeal and gusto of many of these new guys, they are not necessarily prone to listening. Cato, Army and myself have been over on OCDO putting out CGN/CGF flamewars and trying to get people into our camp but not everyone is going to fit that mould. That said, acting like little ****s and spouting off pointless, baseless and inane pop-psych comments (Like those from My375hp302, zum and every other employee of the Bigger Tool Company, you all know if you are on THAT payroll or not) does absolutely NOTHING to dissuade, persuade or convince other people. In fact, it just increases the spite (Feel free to ask me how I know that.)

I will check back on this thread later, despite the blood pressure spike that will ensue.

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 9:41 AM
Actually, Wildhawker has been instrumental for bringing people together and helping out the OC movement.

No, he is just pointing out that stupid is as stupid does. I have offered advice as well on many of these outings and my advice has been ignored as well.

Just a few questions, if you don't mind.

1. How did you get started?

2. Did you have coaching from someone else UOCing?

3.If so, how did your mentor get started? Someone had to take the first step.

4.Are the current batch of UOCers doing something wrong?

5. The UOCers have gotten certain businesses off of the fence and committed to one position or the other, is that a problem?

6. Has the UOC movement actually done something that can definitively be call detrimental to the overall cause?

Hopi
02-07-2010, 10:00 AM
You want to be a snob and make asinine comments,

That's funny. Your emotion is battling your intelligence. And your emotion is winning.


The smart, educated, politically-savvy, mature, and organized UOC activists have mostly stood down upon the recommendations of the *right people*.

Folks like Mudcamper and Pullinshoot (among many other members here) have wisely weighed the risk/reward and have made the equally wise decision to heed the warnings...warnings that have manifested in the realistic consequences you've tried unsuccessfully to hand wave around.

Fortunately for the gun-rights community, you have little influence on the actions and successes of real gun rights advocates compared to folks like Gene and Wildhawker. My participation in this discussion is nothing more than an exercise to expose the selfish nonsense that you're promoting.

Despite your assertion, there is no legal right in CA to carry right now. Sadly, all of your wasted words circle right back to that point. There are people fighting to establish that activity as a right in CA, and they are doing it the right way. Those people are not carrying unloaded guns into Chucky Cheese and chest thumping about how they need to do that to protect themselves.

Currently, there are more effective ways to legally carry a gun in CA. Until we have incorporation and the subsequent legal victories establishing carry as a right, the fact remains that any method of carry in CA is currently not a right, it is a privilege.That is the unfortunate reality....I suggest you read up on the topic. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=267046)

grnt
02-07-2010, 10:10 AM
"I'm a little worried," said Hayley King, of Walnut Creek, who stopped in for lunch. "I don't feel safe in here. I wouldn't have come if I had known."

"If it's (carrying guns) not for law enforcement, it's completely wrong," said Rumer Cantrell, a Walnut Creek resident who attends Carondelet High School in Concord. "Violence should never be promoted in any way. To be walking around saying, 'You can see I have a gun,' promotes [/I]violence."



This is what breeds[I] the anti gun atmosphere. They think only cops and criminals should have guns.

zum
02-07-2010, 10:18 AM
Te Bigger Tool Company is missing an employee. Report back immediately.



i take it we don't agree... i can accept that

BusBoy
02-07-2010, 10:38 AM
Im going to chime in here. I know I shouldn't but what I read here on CalGuns sometimes is a head scratcher.

I found CalGuns though a opencarry site (look at my gianormous post count!) when I was reading about UOC and how to do it. I was interested in people standing up for their rights and was impressed with the flak that they endure to further that cause by reading event reports through their forums.

Every time I am on the forums here I see the same people trouncing UOC and pretty much calling people dumb or idiots.. maybe folks dont use those words but its not hard to read between the lines.

So I guess what I am trying to say is... Right now I look at certain CalGuns members as a bunch of elitists and anyone else who doesnt agree or follow their way of doing things is a fool. That turns me off to what I can see is a HUGELY valuable organization that is making HUGE headway in the fight for gun owners legally in CA.

I live in Concord and attended the open carry event in Walnut Creek. It was a great little get together I didnt UOC as I read and agree with certain points on why people should wait. Belittling peoples efforts will only push them more to what you are trying to dissuade. As its surely been said before cant we just all get along? Provide information to UOC advocates and try to coach them, not call them names.

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 10:47 AM
That's funny. Your emotion is battling your intelligence. And your emotion is winning.

Oh, you mean like this from you?

Excerpted as the only point worth responding to.

If you'd been paying attention, you'd note that there are two distinct points of view on this topic.

I don't mind conversing with people who disagree with me, but I really dislike loud mouths who want to brow beat me as only they think their arrogance can. If you want a civilized conversation from me, then act civilized, if you are capable.

The smart, educated, politically-savvy, mature, and organized UOC activists have mostly stood down upon the recommendations of the *right people*.

Folks like Mudcamper and Pullinshoot (among many other members here) have wisely weighed the risk/reward and have made the equally wise decision to heed the warnings...warnings that have manifested in the realistic consequences you've tried unsuccessfully to hand wave around.

That is their choice and I support their decision as well.

Fortunately for the gun-rights community, you have little influence on the actions and successes of real gun rights advocates compared to folks like Gene and Wildhawker. My participation in this discussion is nothing more than an exercise to expose the selfish nonsense that you're promoting.

Yep, you're right, I have no influence, nor do I pretend to have influence, but I will encourage everyone who is in the fight.....even you.

Despite your assertion, there is no legal right in CA to carry right now. Sadly, all of your wasted words circle right back to that point. There are people fighting to establish that activity as a right in CA, and they are doing it the right way. Those people are not carrying unloaded guns into Chucky Cheese and chest thumping about how they need to do that to protect themselves.

Well, let's see. I may have misspoke when I said rights. However, it is legal and not prohibited by law. Of course those police officials that also called it a "right" in their memos may have misspoke as well, but I'll defer to however they want to view it at the moment until the supreme court uses a hammer an chisel and cuts it into stone.

Currently, there are more effective ways to legally carry a gun in CA. Until we have incorporation and the subsequent legal victories establishing carry as a right, the fact remains that any method of carry in CA is currently not a right, it is a privilege.That is the unfortunate reality....I suggest you read up on the topic. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=267046)

Well, why be so coy, please enlighten me with your expertise.

pullnshoot25
02-07-2010, 10:47 AM
Just a few questions, if you don't mind.

1. How did you get started?

2. Did you have coaching from someone else UOCing?

3.If so, how did your mentor get started? Someone had to take the first step.

4.Are the current batch of UOCers doing something wrong?

5. The UOCers have gotten certain businesses off of the fence and committed to one position or the other, is that a problem?

6. Has the UOC movement actually done something that can definitively be call detrimental to the overall cause?

Have you read my blog? You can find the answers to all of your questions on there. There is even a search function!

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 10:55 AM
Have you read my blog? You can find the answers to all of your questions on there. There is even a search function!

Nope, I've never read you blog. What's the web address?

CitaDeL
02-07-2010, 10:56 AM
"I'm a little worried," said Hayley King, of Walnut Creek, who stopped in for lunch. "I don't feel safe in here. I wouldn't have come if I had known."

"If it's (carrying guns) not for law enforcement, it's completely wrong," said Rumer Cantrell, a Walnut Creek resident who attends Carondelet High School in Concord. "Violence should never be promoted in any way. To be walking around saying, 'You can see I have a gun,' promotes [/I]violence."



This is what breeds[I] the anti gun atmosphere. They think only cops and criminals should have guns.

You are half right. Those quoted came with their anti-gun beliefs and likely departed with their beliefs intact. The UOC presense there did not however, 'create' the anti-gun atmosphere.

When people already believe only police and criminals have handguns, and people carrying handguns that do not have badges or the authority of a peace officer are introduced- you will either challenge their perceptions or they pigeon hole gun owners as a criminals.

Prior to that day, no such challenge was presented and up to that point, there was nothing to indicate that they might be wrong.

POINTMANDDT
02-07-2010, 10:57 AM
I was there yesterday (my first time doing this) and I would say the turn out was around 80-100 people. Also, I had people come up to me and say I like what you guys are doing. I did not hear any negative comments. All and I mean all of the participants are pushing for California to become a "shall issue" state. This is the first step to making that happen. Lastly, some of the Calgun members here sound like the Brady Campaign regarding open carry, its so sad to see fellow 2nd Amendment advocates so divided.

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 11:01 AM
I was there yesterday (my first time doing this) and I would say the turn out was around 80-100 people. Also, I had people come up to me and say I like what you guys are doing. I did not hear any negative comments. All and I mean all of the participants are pushing for California to become a "shall issue" state. This is the first step to making that happen. Lastly, some of the Calgun members here sound like the Brady Campaign regarding open carry, its so sad to see fellow 2nd Amendment advocates so divided.

Thanks for the first hand summary instead of the arm chair quaterback criticism.

Hopi
02-07-2010, 11:03 AM
So piss off dude

I guess you dont wish to stay here.

You want to be a snob and make asinine comments, knock yourself out.


and then...



If you want a civilized conversation from me, then act civilized, if you are capable.



LOL. Riiiiiiiiight.





Well, why be so coy, please enlighten me with your expertise.

Enlighten you about what? I provided you with a link that has plenty of information, Pullinshoot just gave you a lead to another very good source.


Considering these questions of yours:

4.Are the current batch of UOCers doing something wrong?

5. The UOCers have gotten certain businesses off of the fence and committed to one position or the other, is that a problem?

6. Has the UOC movement actually done something that can definitively be call detrimental to the overall cause?

I think it's clear that what I've said previously is spot on; the educated gun rights proponents have made a wise decision w/r/t this behavior at this time. You'd think that after all of your lengthy posts on this subject, you'd be in a better position to answer the above questions yourself.

POINTMANDDT
02-07-2010, 11:11 AM
Thanks for the first hand summary instead of the arm chair quaterback criticism.

Your welcome, I always supported these guys. Finally I decided to show my ultimate support and participate. This was my first time and to be honest I was pretty nervous about the whole thing. I went alone and found support from people that truly support our Constitution. BTW, were there any other Calgunners there?

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 11:14 AM
and then...



LOL. Riiiiiiiiight.





Enlighten you about what? I provided you with a link that has plenty of information, Pullinshoot just gave you a lead to another very good source.


Considering these questions of yours:


I think it's clear that what I've said previously is spot on; the educated gun rights proponents have made a wise decision w/r/t this behavior at this time. You'd think that after all of your lengthy posts on this subject, you'd be in a better position to answer the above questions yourself.

Gee, don't like it when it's served back to you, then don't serve it in the first place.

I briefly perused some of the stuff, since you don't seem willing to just lay it out, I'll get to it when I feel like it.

BusBoy
02-07-2010, 11:17 AM
I was there. I was with a friend. Two big guys. I was the one with the USA Olympic jacket on.

Your welcome, I always supported these guys and finally I decided to show my ultimate support and participate. This was my first time and to be honest I was pretty nervous about the whole thing. I went alone and found support from people that truly support our Constitution. BTW, were there any other Calgunners there?

Hopi
02-07-2010, 11:21 AM
Gee, don't like it when it's served back to you, then don't serve it in the first place.


Nope, I couldn't care less. Serve it up all you want. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of your "act civil" comment. I looked over this thread again and noticed that you got the warning about your conduct.


I briefly perused some of the stuff, since you don't seem willing to just lay it out, I'll get to it when I feel like it.

What are you talking about? There are dozens of threads on this topic, including this thread that you are involved in, the one I linked is just one of the latest to outline explicitly the concerns. If you don't know about the topic, why are you posting so enthusiastically, in support of either position? I'm genuinely curious here.

Ignorance is bliss.

POINTMANDDT
02-07-2010, 11:23 AM
I was there. I was with a friend. Two big guys. I was the one with the USA Olympic jacket on.

Hmm I didn't meet everyone, because I had to leave early. Glad to see I wasn't the only Calgun member there.

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 11:27 AM
Currently, there are more effective ways to legally carry a gun in CA.

Okay, let me spoon feed you. I'll write slowly so you can grasp my question. What did you mean when you said this?

Hopi
02-07-2010, 11:36 AM
Okay, let me spoon feed you. I'll write slowly so you can grasp my question. What did you mean when you said this?


LOL. Spoon feed me?


I'll return the favor...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163061&highlight=locked+unloaded

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=018149931542195181678%3Apzxbzjzh1zk&ie=UTF-8&q=locked+unloaded+carry&sa=Search&siteurl=www.google.com%2Fcse%2Fhome%3Fcx%3D0181499 31542195181678%3Apzxbzjzh1zk

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 11:41 AM
LOL. Spoon feed me?


I'll return the favor...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=163061&highlight=locked+unloaded

http://www.google.com/cse?cx=018149931542195181678%3Apzxbzjzh1zk&ie=UTF-8&q=locked+unloaded+carry&sa=Search&siteurl=www.google.com%2Fcse%2Fhome%3Fcx%3D0181499 31542195181678%3Apzxbzjzh1zk

Gee, that wasn't so hard was it? Based on this information, the law might as well not exist. According to you, no one should exercise their ability under the law to carry in accordance with the law.

Hopi
02-07-2010, 11:43 AM
Gee, that wasn't so hard was it?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were educated on carry in CA. Silly me.

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 11:47 AM
I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were educated on carry in CA. Silly me.

I don't carry, so why would I research what I don't need?

Hopi
02-07-2010, 11:50 AM
I don't carry, so why would I research what I don't need?

So that you can engage intelligently in conversations like this one? Sounds crazy, I know.

pullnshoot25
02-07-2010, 11:54 AM
Nope, I've never read you blog. What's the web address?

It is in my sig line. Also, googling "Open carry" gives my blog address as the ninth search result :)

Also, quit it with the bickering. You guys sound like a bunch of harridans battling it out over parking spots.

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 11:54 AM
So that you can engage intelligently in conversations like this one? Sounds crazy, I know.

It wasn't about the law, it was about people being ridiculed for carrying against the wishes of the more vocal like you and wildhawker. Go back a few pages and reread the posts. Or is that crazy also?

wildhawker
02-07-2010, 11:56 AM
Not at all. You just seem to be making the same noise as her.

It's a bit perplexing that you'd equate Sarah Brady with an active gun rights advocate.

From what I've read of Gorski, he stumbles around like a blind man in a lighted room. The UOCers are simply exercising their right to bear arms well within the confines of the law. So suggesting that because I support UOCers, I must support Gorski is really reaching for a snide comment. Seriously.

You ignored my question and your own statements. Now Gorski "stumbles around like a blind man in a lighted room", therefore he is not on your team. I'm making a similar argument for the current UOC participants and *I'm* the only "elitist" here?

I'm going to forego the discussion on "rights", as I am quite sure it would be summarily ignored and I'd rather spend the time on productive efforts.

Roadrunner
02-07-2010, 11:57 AM
It is in my sig line. Also, googling "Open carry" gives my blog address as the ninth search result :)

Also, quit it with the bickering. You guys sound like a bunch of harridans battling it out over parking spots.

I can't help it. In my former life I was a cavalry scout that hated indians.

IrishPirate
02-07-2010, 12:01 PM
"If it's (carrying guns) not for law enforcement, it's completely wrong," said Rumer Cantrell, a Walnut Creek resident who attends Carondelet High School in Concord. "Violence should never be promoted in any way. To be walking around saying, 'You can see I have a gun,' promotes violence."


yeah, people are obviously just looking for someone with a gun so they can do violent things.....that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard. The last person anyone is going to try to be violent with, is the guy with a gun. It's a non-verbal reminder that my life is more important to me than yours and I'm going to make sure that at the end of the day, I'm still breathing. Plus it's way less offensive than a T-shirt that says "F*ck with me and I'll kill you"

wildhawker
02-07-2010, 12:06 PM
<sigh>

Meplat
02-07-2010, 12:52 PM
There are basically three types of attitudes towards guns. Extremely Pro, Slightly Pro or Ambivalent, and Anti. The only people who cheer UOC are the extremely pros. Most moderates are going to ask "What's the point?" and think that extremists are trying to shove their activities in everyone else's face.


This seems to be a common bay area phenomenon with a lot of issues. Must be something in the water.:rolleyes:

wildhawker
02-07-2010, 1:01 PM
This seems to be a common bay area phenomenon with a lot of issues. Must be something in the water.:rolleyes:

I grew up in the sticks of the Central Valley; you're not going to be able to convince me that UOC in downtown Fresno, Visalia, Kingsburg, Madera or Merced would be a homecoming parade. There are unquestionably more pro-gun or ambivalent citizens there per capita, but the 5 miles around my home probably has more residents than the entire SJ Valley. I was going to say that something that causes ill-reasoned arguments must be in the Valley's water, but then I remembered that the Valley has no water. Maybe it's in the air.

Meplat
02-07-2010, 1:24 PM
I was not talking about open carry I was talking about in your face, counter productive, demonstrations of all sorts. :rolleyes:

You are right, we have no water. It's been stolen by the tree huggers in the bay area for a worthless fish that is not endangered and not even native. So it probably is something in the air. After all, all the crap pollution from the bay area gets blown up the delta by the onshore winds and blown through Fresno and down to Bakersfield where it backs up against the Tehachapi Mountains. Probably has a lot of pot smoke in it too so there is no telling what we might be thinkin over here.:p

PS Hope you have a sense of humor.;)


I grew up in the sticks of the Central Valley; you're not going to be able to convince me at that UOC in downtown Fresno, Visalia, Kingsburg, Madera or Merced would be a homecoming parade. There are unquestionably more pro-gun or ambivalent citizens there per capita, but the 5 miles around my home probably has more residents than the entire SJ Valley. I was going to say that something that causes ill-reasoned arguments must be in the Valley's water, but then I remembered that the Valley has no water. Maybe it's in the air.

wildhawker
02-07-2010, 1:31 PM
PS Hope you have a sense of humor.;)

Not to worry, that's one of the few things I don't lack. :D

Meplat
02-07-2010, 1:44 PM
I have an idea. Why don’t we all agree to start titling any and all threads that have anything at all to do with UOC, pro or con; Food fight-1, Food fight-2 and so on.

Cause that’s what it is going to degenerate into.
:43:

Seesm
02-07-2010, 1:51 PM
I am not into UOC but CCW are what are needed... Lots of them...

but no more Peets or California Pizza Kitchen for me and my family EVER again. I will amke sure of this...

bigcalidave
02-07-2010, 1:55 PM
This thread fails.

You know what would be a great turnout of activists, have 100 activists all go down to the coco county sheriffs office and apply for a CCW. Hell, bring all your friends too.

Alaric
02-07-2010, 2:44 PM
This thread fails.

You know what would be a great turnout of activists, have 100 activists all go down to the coco county sheriffs office and apply for a CCW. Hell, bring all your friends too.

Great idea. Better yet, do this in every urban county that has a similar history of lack of issuance simultaneously, with a minimum of 100 activists each.

Now THAT would be a news story that would garner positive attention and get our point across.

wildhawker
02-07-2010, 2:56 PM
Right now we'd made a poignant but expensive point that would be mostly lost on the media and CLEO. After Sykes, expect to see C3 Leaders in your area (statewide) organize mass timed CCW applications.

Hopi
02-07-2010, 2:56 PM
Right now we'd made a poignant but expensive point that would be mostly lost on the media and CLEO. After Sykes, expect to see C3 Leaders in your area (statewide) organize mass timed CCW applications.


:43:

Alaric
02-07-2010, 3:08 PM
Right now we'd made a poignant but expensive point that would be mostly lost on the media and CLEO. After Sykes, expect to see C3 Leaders in your area (statewide) organize mass timed CCW applications.

Heh, I can't wait.

POINTMANDDT
02-07-2010, 3:33 PM
What we understand is that you're upset that a new round of pro-rights advocates didn't come to you for permission first.

Did you stop and think that these 85+ or so people don't know about Calguns, let alone you?

You're so quick to be condescending of these people wishing to engage in their lives (albeit, armed in accordance with the law), but I don't recall you chiming in, saying "I'll be there, telling these guys about CG and why they should wait for incorporation!" on any of the threads, websites or other methods of outreach.

And please, don't play the "I wasn't invited" card. Open Carry event invitations are extended to everyone. Even those who disagree.

I actually talk to them about Calguns. The most common response I got was Calguns is not very friendly to Open Carry groups. I explained to them I have never seen any unfriendly posts toward UOCers. That is until today from Wildhawker and others. So disappointed............:(

POINTMANDDT
02-07-2010, 3:37 PM
This thread fails.

You know what would be a great turnout of activists, have 100 activists all go down to the coco county sheriffs office and apply for a CCW. Hell, bring all your friends too.


I love that idea, great thinking.......:thumbsup:

BusBoy
02-07-2010, 3:43 PM
I actually talk to them about Calguns. The most common response I got was Calguns is not very friendly to Open Carry groups. I explained to them I have never seen any unfriendly posts toward UOCers. That is until today from Wildhawker and others. So disappointed............:(

Kinda like what I said in a previous post but maybe i was lost in the back and forth ;-)

Im going to chime in here. I know I shouldn't but what I read here on CalGuns sometimes is a head scratcher.

I found CalGuns though a opencarry site (look at my gianormous post count!) when I was reading about UOC and how to do it. I was interested in people standing up for their rights and was impressed with the flak that they endure to further that cause by reading event reports through their forums.

Every time I am on the forums here I see the same people trouncing UOC and pretty much calling people dumb or idiots.. maybe folks dont use those words but its not hard to read between the lines.

So I guess what I am trying to say is... Right now I look at certain CalGuns members as a bunch of elitists and anyone else who doesnt agree or follow their way of doing things is a fool. That turns me off to what I can see is a HUGELY valuable organization that is making HUGE headway in the fight for gun owners legally in CA.

I live in Concord and attended the open carry event in Walnut Creek. It was a great little get together I didnt UOC as I read and agree with certain points on why people should wait. Belittling peoples efforts will only push them more to what you are trying to dissuade. As its surely been said before cant we just all get along? Provide information to UOC advocates and try to coach them, not call them names.


And I just ran across a great thread by Gene that just does exactly that... coaches without belittling! Its in the last page of the UL carry thread thats popular.

-BusBoy

It Feels Lonely in Concord... Any CalGunners in the area that go to the USI Range?

Fissssh
02-07-2010, 3:48 PM
Keep me posted and I will be there.

Right now we'd made a poignant but expensive point that would be mostly lost on the media and CLEO. After Sykes, expect to see C3 Leaders in your area (statewide) organize mass timed CCW applications.

wildhawker
02-07-2010, 3:49 PM
Considering my comments in a vacuum gives you an inaccurate reflection of the totality of my views on UOC and how I plan to utilize the tool in the near future.

I look forward to discussing this at Oak's BBQ next month.

Hopi
02-07-2010, 3:54 PM
Kinda like what I said in a previous post but maybe i was lost in the back and forth ;-)



And I just ran across a great thread by Gene that just does exactly that... coaches without belittling! Its in the last page of the UL carry thread thats popular.



I will comment on this briefly. If you're going to put yourself out there as the face of advocacy, you'd better be ready to face the criticism of your peers. Trust me, the criticism from outside the gun-rights community will be much harsher and the intent will not come from their shared interest in the same end result.

If you can't articulate valid support for your agenda here, God help you us all when a truly hostile environment presents itself.

At the very least, you should understand the fight before stepping into the ring.

Meplat
02-07-2010, 4:06 PM
I actually talk to them about Calguns. The most common response I got was Calguns is not very friendly to Open Carry groups. I explained to them I have never seen any unfriendly posts toward UOCers. That is until today from Wildhawker and others. So disappointed............:(

You have to be kidding me!?!?!? This has been an ongoing series of food fights for months!

CalNRA
02-07-2010, 4:07 PM
The point is to do a POLITICAL protest, not engage in a friggin GUNFIGHT. THe point is to associate guns with good guys, not provoke an opportunity to use them. I love the "if you guys had balls" arguments that pervade this site. While I do not agree with a lot of the UOC activities at the moment, I will say that they all at least have a pair, unlike some of the degenerate keyboard commandos on this site.



you know, I had a level of respect for UOC and you in particular until now.

wildhawker
02-07-2010, 4:27 PM
you know, I had a level of respect for UOC and you in particular until now.

To defend Nate for a moment, he's an intelligent, passionate and reasonable man (unless we're talking about love interests, then all bets are off). We have all said some caustic things over the course of many discussions, myself included. I'd just ask that you consider his role and substantial efforts in guiding the new UOCers to the best of his ability.

BusBoy
02-07-2010, 4:51 PM
I will comment on this briefly. If you're going to put yourself out there as the face of advocacy, you'd better be ready to face the criticism of your peers. Trust me, the criticism from outside the gun-rights community will be much harsher and the intent will not come from their shared interest in the same end result.

If you can't articulate valid support for your agenda here, God help you us all when a truly hostile environment presents itself.

At the very least, you should understand the fight before stepping into the ring.

Hopi, Never said I put myself out there as an advocate of anything not sure if youre speaking to me or not. Did I post my advocacy anywhere?? As for posting "valid support for your agenda"? Where are you reading my agenda at as I dont recall posting anything resembling an agenda??

I think I understand the fight pretty well, Hence my statement "I didnt UOC as I read and agree with certain points on why people should wait" I happened to read about those points here at CGN.

As for criticism... please, this is just a forum it would take a whole lot more than that to really raise my hairs. The bulk of my post was about people who may not have originated their Pro Gun beliefs from CalGuns and dont really know the/a better way to express their support for 2A. Again coach and educate, seems simple to me. :D

N6ATF
02-07-2010, 4:56 PM
Lemme try to break down this quote tree in the interest of respect and gallows humor:

The area around California Pizza Kitchen is pretty nice and safe. These people outta go UOC at a more suitable location, say International Blvd in Oakland where they might actually need it?

The point is to do a POLITICAL protest, not engage in a friggin GUNFIGHT. THe point is to associate guns with good guys, not provoke an opportunity to use them. I love the "if you guys had balls" arguments that pervade this site. While I do not agree with a lot of the UOC activities at the moment, I will say that they all at least have a pair, unlike some of the degenerate keyboard commandos on this site.

you know, I had a level of respect for UOC and you in particular until now.

CalNRA, if you lost respect for Nate because you were being sarcastic, and he didn't pick up on it, that's something.

Challenging people to put their lives on the line, and engage in what might be construed as an illegal militia formation in a high-crime area (and with predictable spin, a white supremacist demonstration intended to provoke a race riot), is another thing.

If the latter, with no intention of attending such an event, is what you propose, that would earn you the rank of Corporal in the Keyboard Commandos.

Hopi
02-07-2010, 5:01 PM
Hopi, Never said I put myself out there as an advocate of anything not sure if youre speaking to me or not. Did I post my advocacy anywhere?? As for posting "valid support for your agenda"? Where are you reading my agenda at as I dont recall posting anything resembling an agenda??

I think I understand the fight pretty well, Hence my statement "I didnt UOC as I read and agree with certain points on why people should wait" I happened to read about those points here at CGN.

As for criticism... please, this is just a forum it would take a whole lot more than that to really raise my hairs. The bulk of my post was about people who may not have originated their Pro Gun beliefs from CalGuns and dont really know the/a better way to express their support for 2A. Again coach and educate, seems simple to me. :D

I'm sorry, my post did seem directed at you personally. I was using the generic 'you' directed at the thinner-skinned amongst the *we must do it right now* UOC advocates.

I agree with the 'coach and educate' strategy, however, historically on this board, some of the more vocal advocates have demonstrated the 'with or without you' attitude, shunning both cooperation and the political/legal savvy necessary to win.

I will say again, as I have in other UOC threads, THANK YOU to those UOC advocates whom have digested the risks/rewards of the *must do it right now* agenda and have chosen to wisely stand down.

BusBoy
02-07-2010, 5:22 PM
I'm sorry, my post did seem directed at you personally. I was using the generic 'you' directed at the thinner-skinned amongst the *we must do it right now* UOC advocates.

I agree with the 'coach and educate' strategy, however, historically on this board, some of the more vocal advocates have demonstrated the 'with or without you' attitude, shunning both cooperation and the political/legal savvy necessary to win.

I will say again, as I have in other UOC threads, THANK YOU to those UOC advocates whom have digested the risks/rewards of the *must do it right now* agenda and have chosen to wisely stand down.

Yeah I do remember reading some of the with or without you posts. Not good.
I do see frustration of the whole thing but I cant for the life of me see doing UOC as a "I dare you to arrest me I'm legally following the law! Fauk Off"
Now, People calmly attending a lunch while UOCing and handing out pro gun literature ... hmmmmm not sure how that fits in with the overall strategy of CalGuns Foundations legal efforts. Do you think it hurts the efforts? I mean are people changing their minds about guns or were they already made up before seeing a UOC event?

POINTMANDDT
02-07-2010, 5:33 PM
You have to be kidding me!?!?!? This has been an ongoing series of food fights for months!

I spend most of my time in the sales forum or OT forum, but this area has caught my attention. Now I know, and I very suprise.

POINTMANDDT
02-07-2010, 5:36 PM
Kinda like what I said in a previous post but maybe i was lost in the back and forth ;-)



And I just ran across a great thread by Gene that just does exactly that... coaches without belittling! Its in the last page of the UL carry thread thats popular.

-BusBoy

It Feels Lonely in Concord... Any CalGunners in the area that go to the USI Range?

I may be living in Concord soon, pending an approval from a Bank (Short Sale). Its in the turtle creek area, so maybe we'll be neighbors. BTW, I love shooting at the range and have plenty of ammo hit me up when you want to go.

pullnshoot25
02-07-2010, 5:38 PM
I can't help it. In my former life I was a cavalry scout that hated indians.

That is irrelevant to the context. Look up the meaning of "harridan". Even better, let me link you to it (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/harridan).

I am not into UOC but CCW are what are needed... Lots of them...


Agreed. I am not into UOC either. I am into the right to carry. I would love ULOC (Unlicensed/Unrestricted/Unbastardized Loaded Open Carry) but that may take a bit.


you know, I had a level of respect for UOC and you in particular until now.

Considering that I wasn't singling out anyone in particular, this statement is truly telling.

To defend Nate for a moment, he's an intelligent, passionate and reasonable man (unless we're talking about love interests, then all bets are off). We have all said some caustic things over the course of many discussions, myself included. I'd just ask that you consider his role and substantial efforts in guiding the new UOCers to the best of his ability.

Yeah, I scared the last one off with my "don't talk to cops" lesson. Which is fine, I wasn't that into her.

On a more relevant note, I thank you for the compliments :)

BusBoy
02-07-2010, 5:51 PM
I may be living in Concord soon, pending an approval from a Bank (Short Sale). Its in the turtle creek area, so maybe we'll be neighbors. BTW, I love shooting at the range and have plenty of ammo hit me up when you want to go.

Sweet! I go weekly to USI. Currently trying to get into the orientation for their Action Pistol events. They seem like great fun!

POINTMANDDT
02-07-2010, 5:58 PM
Sweet! I go weekly to USI. Currently trying to get into the orientation for their Action Pistol events. They seem like great fun!

Me too, I need to send my info to them. What group are you trying to get in Diablo?

BusBoy
02-07-2010, 6:06 PM
Me too, I need to send my info to them. What group are you trying to get in Diablo?

Well I'm a member of the Diablo rod and gun club @USI but Diablo Action Pistol holds Orientation Classes that you have to go through. They are every odd month and I guess the March class is full :eek: so it may be May :mad: before I can possibly begin shooting events with them.

Fissssh
02-07-2010, 6:26 PM
Yep, was there Thursday.


-BusBoy

It Feels Lonely in Concord... Any CalGunners in the area that go to the USI Range?

POINTMANDDT
02-07-2010, 6:35 PM
Well I'm a member of the Diablo rod and gun club @USI but Diablo Action Pistol holds Orientation Classes that you have to go through. They are every odd month and I guess the March class is full :eek: so it may be May :mad: before I can possibly begin shooting events with them.

What bummer, I thought I had plenty of time to sign up.:(

Dragunov
02-07-2010, 6:36 PM
I'm not sure what it gets us other than negative publicity.

I think we're all tired of skulking around in the background. Skulking hasn't done anything but lost us some of our rights, and it will only bring failure in the future. I don't have a handgun, but I carry an unloaded rifle and ammo in my vehicle legally at all times.

Fissssh
02-07-2010, 6:39 PM
Two days ago at the meeting they said it was half full. :(What bummer, I thought I had plenty of time to sign up.:(

CalNRA
02-07-2010, 8:13 PM
Considering that I wasn't singling out anyone in particular, this statement is truly telling.


so help me understand this, is it now acceptable to start calling unspecified people on Calguns "degenerate keyboard commandos"?

since you said that in a reply to me, I assumed it had something to do with me. But if it wasn't directed at me, please name who you were called "degenerate keyboard commando" to avoid confusion.

here is what you said:

While I do not agree with a lot of the UOC activities at the moment, I will say that they all at least have a pair, unlike some of the degenerate keyboard commandos on this site.

Please help me understand who the "some of the ...." are?

BusBoy
02-07-2010, 8:58 PM
Two days ago at the meeting they said it was half full. :(

Yeah I was at the meeting... the info was wrong. Garth the guy who runs registration emailed me that reg was full for March... but yea Im signed up for May.

Since your a member you had to see me the whole freeking room cleared when new members were told to go outside. I was standing against the wall of windows there by the door. Coughing and trying to stay quiet! Sad with that many members, the turnout the club gets on that Thursday.

Can'thavenuthingood
02-07-2010, 11:06 PM
An interesting read, this thread.

So does anyone know how this guy got 85-100 people to commit and show up as promised?
Did he buy the burgers or what?


Vick

technique
02-08-2010, 12:43 AM
An interesting read, this thread.

So does anyone know how this guy got 85-100 people to commit and show up as promised?
Did he buy the burgers or what?


Vick


Ya know, "no shat"..is what I say to that. How in the world?
We have hardly been able to get 100 people together for a CGN shoot, or build party. Un-FN-believable.:o

spaceburger
02-18-2010, 4:09 PM
I was at the OC event in WC and as a matter of fact got quoted in those articles along with seeing my full name printed in them and seeing my name, face, and voice plastered on TV footage on KRON 4 that night. I did not want that to happen but it was cool to see allot of support from fellow workers.
Let me say the event was very carefully planned via facebook by a guy who happens to be an ex-LEO. He worked very hard to coordinate with Buckhorn and WCPD and that is how 80-100 people showed up.
We met in advance with the WC Police Chief and it was a pleasure to see the pre-meeting compliance check very professionally carried out.
From everything I have seen, and read, it was reported accurately and for the most part it came out as good press.
Had I know fellow calgunners were there (BusBoy, POINTMANDDT, etal.) it would have been cool to meet up and discuss this issue. Hopi has made it clear that since that event, many UOC people have stood down – myself included. Had I heard some of those arguments before I attended, I might have said or did things differently.
But now for my point..
I was active on calguns four years ago but saw allot of stupid infighting and ego being plastered in these threads (keyboard commandos). Frankly it becomes ammo for the anti-gunners to read the stupid sh%t that gets said among some of you guys. Roadrunner, wildhawker, Hopi, pullnshoot25, CalNRA..I respect your opinions and you guys have allot of good things to say BUT PLEASE
1) check your ego
2) repy with thoughtful positive stuff, not flaming each other
3) If you must, flame via PM, not in an open thread where it becomes an open fight to prove nothing

Hopi
02-18-2010, 4:20 PM
I was at the OC event in WC and as a matter of fact got quoted in those articles along with seeing my full name printed in them and seeing my name, face, and voice plastered on TV footage on KRON 4 that night. I did not want that to happen but it was cool to see allot of support from fellow workers.
Let me say the event was very carefully planned via facebook by a guy who happens to be an ex-LEO. He worked very hard to coordinate with Buckhorn and WCPD and that is how 80-100 people showed up.
We met in advance with the WC Police Chief and it was a pleasure to see the pre-meeting compliance check very professionally carried out.
From everything I have seen, and read, it was reported accurately and for the most part it came out as good press.
Had I know fellow calgunners were there (BusBoy, POINTMANDDT, etal.) it would have been cool to meet up and discuss this issue. Hopi has made it clear that since that event, many UOC people have stood down – myself included. Had I heard some of those arguments before I attended, I might have said or did things differently.
But now for my point..
I was active on calguns four years ago but saw allot of stupid infighting and ego being plastered in these threads (keyboard commandos). Frankly it becomes ammo for the anti-gunners to read the stupid sh%t that gets said among some of you guys. Roadrunner, wildhawker, Hopi, pullnshoot25, CalNRA..I respect your opinions and you guys have allot of good things to say BUT PLEASE
1) check your ego
2) repy with thoughtful positive stuff, not flaming each other
3) If you must, flame via PM, not in an open thread where it becomes an open fight to prove nothing


Good post and point taken. I think two things about this; this topic has run it's course for the most part, and both sides of the aisle have much to reflect on.

Blood Ocean
02-18-2010, 5:08 PM
Interesting read to say the least, you guys should send each other gift baskets, they make everything better.