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jdberger
02-03-2010, 9:44 AM
This thread has been crossposted here. (https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=266114)

As most of you know, the City of Oakland is considering the licensing of ammunition dealers, additional restrictions on the sales of ammunition and a law requiring the prompt reporting of stolen firearms.

Oakland has repeatedly cited similar ammunition control ordinances in San Francisco, Berkeley, Los Angeles and Richmond as their model and proof of their constitutionality.

The stated reason for these ordinances is that they will help to reduce crime.

So - the research project has three prongs.

One: Find the ammo ordinances in the above cities. Compare to the Oakland ordinance.

Two: Using the list of ABAG governments, compile a list of FFLs and ammunition retailers by municipality.

Three: Again, using the list of ABAG governments, compile a list of murders (or maybe just assemble a per capita "gun homicide" rate) organized by municipality.

This would need to be completed by February 10th (ish).

Obviously, this is a HUGE project. It would benefit from some division.

The idea is to demonstrate that the proposed ordinance isn't going to help Oakland, because they have a cultural problem, not a gun problem.

That'll be the carrot...

The stick is CGF's promise of expensive and humiliating litigation.

Please let me know if you'd be interested in contributing.

We need to stop these guys in their tracks.

http://spartanwarband.com/albums/modernart/300_Frank_Miller.sized.jpg

dantodd
02-03-2010, 12:47 PM
Are you suggesting that Oakland leaders might admit the problem is with the people who voted them into office when they can blame an inanimate object that doesn't vote?

wildhawker
02-03-2010, 12:47 PM
Los Angeles attached

44907
44908

wildhawker
02-03-2010, 1:00 PM
City of Richmond attached

44909

jdberger
02-03-2010, 1:11 PM
Are you suggesting that Oakland leaders might admit the problem is with the people who voted them into office when they can blame an inanimate object that doesn't vote?

Nope. But there is such a thing as "fair warning". A detailed presentation illustrating that they've their collective heads in their rectums might do that.

After all, if they're willing to pay up to $3 million in legal fees, they better have a good reason.

wildhawker
02-03-2010, 1:11 PM
City of Berkeley attached

44910

jdberger
02-03-2010, 1:20 PM
Thanks, Brandon. Note that neither the Richmond not Berkeley codes refer to customer ID requirements for ammo purchases....I'll see if I can look further.

wildhawker
02-03-2010, 1:22 PM
San Francisco attached

44911

tba02
02-03-2010, 1:24 PM
Can I get someone to compile the violent crime stats by city and offense and put them into some sort of spreadsheet? Excel will work fine.

I'll compile, I'm through NAPA but cannot get back to the task until tomorrow AM, should be done before 9:00

wildhawker
02-03-2010, 1:25 PM
Thanks, Brandon. Note that neither the Richmond not Berkeley codes refer to customer ID requirements for ammo purchases....I'll see if I can look further.

Nothing I found, SF does however:

(b)
No vendor shall sell or otherwise transfer ownership of any firearm ammunition without at the time of purchase recording the following information on a form to be prescribed by the Chief of Police: (1) the name of the vendor (including the name of the specific individual) transferring ownership to the transferee; (2) the place where the transfer occurred; (3) the date and time of the transfer; (4) the name, address and date of birth of the transferee; (5) the transferee's driver's license number, or other identification number, and the state in which it was issued; (6) the brand, type and amount of ammunition transferred; and (7) the transferee's signature.
(c)
The records required by this Section shall be maintained on the premises of the vendor for a period of not less than two years from the date of the recorded transfer. Said records shall be subject to inspection at any time during normal business hours.

obeygiant
02-03-2010, 2:18 PM
Los Angeles attached

44907
44908


City of Richmond attached

44909


City of Berkeley attached

44910

Wildhawker FTW. Nicely done.

wildhawker
02-03-2010, 2:24 PM
I'm seeing LA, SF and Sacto with ammo sales regs, any others known?

obeygiant
02-03-2010, 2:36 PM
Carson is one that passed recently

ETA:

Here are the pertinent sections of the Carson Municipal Code (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B7O8lhd3bsBQYzRjNDQwZTUtMmRjYi00MjRkL Tk1MWEtMTkyMTdkYzg4OGNl&hl=en)

wildhawker
02-03-2010, 2:58 PM
Here's Sacto

44930
44928

obeygiant
02-03-2010, 7:10 PM
Compiling a document with the pertinent codes but so far ....

Ammuntion Sales (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B7O8lhd3bsBQMjQ3ZGQyMTgtNTFlOC00OWEzL WEwNTAtZjY2NGRkMGUxMTIy&hl=en)

Hayward
Inglewood
Pasadena
Santa Monica
Contra Costa County
San Bernardino County
San Diego County


Marin County (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B7O8lhd3bsBQODBjNTZiNDEtMGI0ZS00ZmZjL ThlNDEtMWYzODEzOWM0MmUz&hl=en)

Electricboy
02-03-2010, 9:01 PM
what about statistics from D.C., Didnt they have the strictest gun laws and no FFL's. How much did crime drop from June 2008 to dec 2009?

i guess that wasnt the direction you were heading.... oops

jdberger
02-03-2010, 10:59 PM
what about statistics from D.C., Didnt they have the strictest gun laws and no FFL's. How much did crime drop from June 2008 to dec 2009?

i guess that wasnt the direction you were heading.... oops

No. Not really. That works for a National argument, but I'm concentrating on the Bay Area, specifically ABAG governments because that's where LCAV is concentrating its efforts.

We might not be able to stop them, But we can demonstrate, in front of the world and everyone, that they're full of poop. And getting beat up on TV by a bunch of amateurs will be embarrasing - and might serve as a warning to anyone else that's thinking about listening to these fools.

We'll banish their lobbyist to the same table as the Flat Earthers and NAMBLA.

jdberger
02-03-2010, 11:01 PM
I'm seeing LA, SF and Sacto with ammo sales regs, any others known?

So - no Richmond. No Berkeley....

Interesting.

Can we see if maybe another pair of eyes can take a look? If I'm gonna call LCAV and the Oakland City Council liars on TV, I'd like to be right.... ;)

jdberger
02-04-2010, 10:50 AM
Would any of our more graphically gifted folks be interested in creating a map of the ABAG counties and municipalities?

This would have to go onto a relatively large piece of posterboard that I could stand on an easel.

Powerpoint or some sort of interactive map might be neat, too - but I don't know if we'd get permission to use it. However, it might be neat to hand it out as part of a media packet later.

wildhawker
02-04-2010, 12:36 PM
My father-in-law can do large color photo-quality plots on poster board out of San Jose.

We might want to post a "help wanted" in a few high-traffic forums for the graphics work.

timdps
02-04-2010, 4:37 PM
Here is something from Marin county:

http://www.co.marin.ca.us/depts/BS/main/agdocs/991102gundlr.html

Not sure its what you are looking for.

tim

dantodd
02-04-2010, 5:57 PM
If I could add a fourth prong to your presentation.

A listing of the statutes that LCAV and others have pushed through in other cities and what those cities have had to pay to opposing council. I think here you can extend beyond the Bay Area.

Heller
Nordyke
McDonald approx. (You know they are going to lose)
NRA v. SF Housing Authority

etc.

jdberger
02-04-2010, 7:08 PM
If I could add a fourth prong to your presentation.

A listing of the statutes that LCAV and others have pushed through in other cities and what those cities have had to pay to opposing council. I think here you can extend beyond the Bay Area.

Heller
Nordyke
McDonald approx. (You know they are going to lose)
NRA v. SF Housing Authority

etc.

Great idea. I'm kinda hoping that someone else will be available to present the "stick".

As it is, I'm not sure how I'm going to get enough time to do my presentation. Maybe I can have people pull cards and cede their time to me.

obeygiant
02-04-2010, 9:18 PM
Would any of our more graphically gifted folks be interested in creating a map of the ABAG counties and municipalities?

This would have to go onto a relatively large piece of posterboard that I could stand on an easel.

Powerpoint or some sort of interactive map might be neat, too - but I don't know if we'd get permission to use it. However, it might be neat to hand it out as part of a media packet later.

I should have a map for you within the next half hour.

All CA FFL's
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6756/fflbycounty1.th.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/fflbycounty1.jpg/)
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/2909/fflbycounty2.th.jpg (http://img341.imageshack.us/i/fflbycounty2.jpg/)

obeygiant
02-06-2010, 10:44 AM
List of FFL by County (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArO8lhd3bsBQdElkdXliQTVGSmV2WGZKck5aUXB1W FE&hl=en)

jdberger
02-09-2010, 10:59 PM
Allrighty!

Thanks to everyone who's stepped up to assist! Y'all are amazing.

Now - I've another request.

I need a map. A big map. Of the ABAG municipalities (borders, etc). It's gotta be in color.

What I'd like to do, is color code the municipalities by number of murders (or possibly murder rate). I can provide the colors/numbers a little further into the project.

I'd like to be able to put this on a 36" X 24" piece of posterboard - so it's best if the map is a .pdf.

Also, I plan to have some overlays for it (see the maps Obeygiant posted above) so it would be helpful if the base map was uncluttered.

Thoughts?

Can someone put this together for me?

jdberger
02-09-2010, 11:00 PM
Oh - and it would be great if someone could round up the present draft of the measure. OCC changed it a little on Feb. 2.

obeygiant
02-14-2010, 3:19 PM
Oh - and it would be great if someone could round up the present draft of the measure. OCC changed it a little on Feb. 2.

Supplemental Report - 2010 FEB -4 PM 6:17 (http://clerkwebsvr1.oaklandnet.com/attachments/24122.pdf)

Supplemental Report - 2010 JAN 12 PM 7:24 (http://clerkwebsvr1.oaklandnet.com/attachments/24022.pdf)

Master Detail Report Legislative File ID 09-0857 (http://clerkwebsvr1.oaklandnet.com/detailreport/matter.aspx?key=17742)

Master Detail Report Legislative File ID 09-0857-1 (http://clerkwebsvr1.oaklandnet.com/detailreport/matter.aspx?key=18152)

Master Detail Report Legislative File ID 09-0857-2 (http://clerkwebsvr1.oaklandnet.com/detailreport/matter.aspx?key=18153)