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dirtnap
02-01-2010, 4:58 PM
I live across the street from a k-12. The school is at eye level with my yard, but you have to go down a hill, across a 4 lane road(with large median) across a gulley, and back up the same size hill before you are at the fence for the school playground. I am curious as to how distance is determined, A.straight across through thin air or B.over all the terrain in between?

If it's A I'm SOL, if it's B I might be ok....

goober
02-01-2010, 5:07 PM
I live across the street from a k-12. The school is at eye level with my yard, but you have to go down a hill, across a 4 lane road(with large median) across a gulley, and back up the same size hill before you are at the fence for the school playground. I am curious as to how distance is determined, A.straight across through thin air or B.over all the terrain in between?

If it's A I'm SOL, if it's B I might be ok....

i don't know this for a fact but you can bet it's whatever is less favorable to you (i.e. they use A not B).
it's straight-line distance not distance-over-ground, and you can also bet it's from the NEAREST extent of the school property that is m,measurable.

loather
02-01-2010, 5:42 PM
The right answer is that if you in any way lie within 1000 feet of a school -- any part of a school -- you are probably in violation. I wouldn't take any chances on this, especially so given the fact that such things aren't codified in the law.

I just wouldn't risk it.

Robidouxs
02-01-2010, 5:44 PM
The distance would be measured from the property line or edge that the parcel the school is on. The valley would not be taken into account, merely imagine the 1000 foot buffer radiating out from the edge of the school and that is the "gun free school zone."

trautert
02-01-2010, 5:46 PM
Including air space?

raycm2
02-01-2010, 6:06 PM
If you are talking about carrying I would not recommend open carry. Within your home, no problem. Outside is also Ok, but avoid "public" areas of your property (driveway, etc).

dirtnap
02-01-2010, 7:28 PM
Better safe than sorry I suppose, I wish there was a solid answer backed by PC.

Librarian
02-01-2010, 7:33 PM
Better safe than sorry I suppose, I wish there was a solid answer backed by PC.

That there is no such solid answer is a good indication that the legislature was unserious when it passed this law.

pitchbaby
02-01-2010, 9:18 PM
I agree with Librarian.... all of it done for "show"

SixPointEight
02-01-2010, 9:27 PM
Well how would they measure it? With a long measuring tape? Then it's straight line. I suspect its this way, otherwise you could live the next block over, and say that you need to travel on 1000ft of pavement to get there when really two fences is all you have to jump.

How would you measure it if you were irrationally afraid of guns? Whichever way keeps the guns as far away as possible.

loather
02-01-2010, 9:40 PM
How would you measure it if you were irrationally afraid of guns? Whichever way keeps the guns as far away as possible.

EXACTLY.

mhho
02-02-2010, 6:09 AM
Well how would they measure it? With a long measuring tape? Then it's straight line. I suspect its this way, otherwise you could live the next block over, and say that you need to travel on 1000ft of pavement to get there when really two fences is all you have to jump.

Or they can use GPS like they do for sex offenders' homes. They try and like to treat gun owners like those convicts.

paul0660
02-02-2010, 6:16 AM
Google earth it with the measuring tool. You are ok on your own property anyway, with the aforementioned gray area about publicly accessible parts.

OleCuss
02-02-2010, 6:25 AM
You know? If you are worried about it, I'd recommend getting a measuring wheel and both measuring the shortest distance from you to the school that you can walk/measure.

If that distance is more than 1,000 feet, then if you ever get hauled into court you will have at least demonstrated a good-faith effort to ensure that you are more than 1,000 feet away. Since there appears to be no standard available I'd guess that a jury would at least be sympathetic.

Of course, I'd try to avoid having to go to a jury. . . So don't be seen walking around with weaponry - just not prudent.

Decoligny
02-02-2010, 8:04 AM
Including air space?

You're welcome to try hang gliding over an elementary school with a couple pistols on your belt.

Wouldn't want to be in the vicinity of the landing site though. :eek:

goober
02-02-2010, 8:42 AM
Google earth it with the measuring tool. You are ok on your own property anyway, with the aforementioned gray area about publicly accessible parts.

^this



You know? If you are worried about it, I'd recommend getting a measuring wheel and both measuring the shortest distance from you to the school that you can walk/measure.

If that distance is more than 1,000 feet, then if you ever get hauled into court you will have at least demonstrated a good-faith effort to ensure that you are more than 1,000 feet away. Since there appears to be no standard available I'd guess that a jury would at least be sympathetic.

Of course, I'd try to avoid having to go to a jury. . . So don't be seen walking around with weaponry - just not prudent.
^not this

(except the part about not going to a jury :o )
measuring w/ a wheel will give you over ground distance, which will always be equal to or greater than the straight-line distance (nearly always greater), and also will necessitate you to measure in locations where you can actually walk & roll the wheel. DoJ/a DA/prosecutor/etc. are going to measure straight-line using a map/aerial photo in GIS or a Google Earth-type app. in reality they will use a buffer tool that simply puts a line around the irregularly-shaped boundary of the school property @ the proscribed distance:
http://webhelp.esri.com/arcgisdesktop/9.2/published_images/buffer_esri.gif
this means your wheel measurement of the legal distance will almost always end up inside a buffer drawn their way (and thus be too close to the school by their definition, but OK by yours).

OleCuss
02-02-2010, 9:16 AM
Hmm. . .

If the law does not specify the measurement method and I was working on my potential defense I'd still probably try using the wheel. This way you can demonstrate that you made a good-faith effort to comply with the law - which I would think would at least go to intent.

That's not to say that I would want to choose to carry a weapon around in an area in which a Google Map measurement would indicate was within 1,000 feet of a qualifying school. On that I certainly agree with you. However, I've never used a measuring tool on Google - and I'd bet a number of those on any jury wouldn't have either. . .

But again, the key is not to do stupid stuff and get hauled into court. I definitely live within 1,000 feet of a school and no one ever sees me carrying guns around on my property. It just doesn't happen.

SteveH
02-02-2010, 11:09 AM
Well how would they measure it? With a long measuring tape? Then it's straight line. I suspect its this way, otherwise you could live the next block over, and say that you need to travel on 1000ft of pavement to get there when really two fences is all you have to jump.

How would you measure it if you were irrationally afraid of guns? Whichever way keeps the guns as far away as possible.

Google earth.

1000' feet from the outer edge of the school property.

Lots of cops are carrying around lists of every K-12 school in their patrol zones and familiarizing themselves with google earth.

goober
02-02-2010, 11:19 AM
Hmm. . .

If the law does not specify the measurement method and I was working on my potential defense I'd still probably try using the wheel. This way you can demonstrate that you made a good-faith effort to comply with the law - which I would think would at least go to intent.

That's not to say that I would want to choose to carry a weapon around in an area in which a Google Map measurement would indicate was within 1,000 feet of a qualifying school. On that I certainly agree with you. However, I've never used a measuring tool on Google - and I'd bet a number of those on any jury wouldn't have either. . .

But again, the key is not to do stupid stuff and get hauled into court. I definitely live within 1,000 feet of a school and no one ever sees me carrying guns around on my property. It just doesn't happen.

Point taken. The reality of it is that the jury will never have to be told how the calculation was done; they'll see an aerial or satellite image (quite likely from GE or the state's GIS lab, but either way it will be made to look similar to the GE interface to make it accessible) and on it there will be a big red boundary polygon, slightly transparent, around the school in question. If your incident occurred within that red zone, you're screwed.

Google earth.

1000' feet from the outer edge of the school property.

Lots of cops are carrying around lists of every K-12 school in their patrol zones and familiarizing themselves with google earth.

It'll get much easier for them once their depts or the Co or state realizes they can create a poly layer for GE that shows the red zone boundaries around every school, so that no measuring is even required.

SixPointEight
02-02-2010, 11:23 AM
I'm interested in testing this out. How do we determine the boundaries of the school? I was assuming it was just 1000ft from the end of the property(usually a rectangular shape) right?

Robidouxs
02-02-2010, 12:17 PM
From what I have seen, the boundary of the school is the edge of the property line (the buffer would just follow the edge of the property line).

bulgron
02-02-2010, 1:25 PM
Is there some way to show the entire buffer using Google Maps, or do you just kind of eyeball it using the ruler?

xrMike
02-02-2010, 1:36 PM
They measure it with a specially-trained crow on a 1000' leash made of dental floss. Caw! Caw!

Theseus
02-02-2010, 2:27 PM
I can tell you that in my case they used a roll-a-meter. How they determined the edge of the school is still unclear, I believe they said they simply asked a school official.

GuyW
02-02-2010, 2:58 PM
I can tell you that in my case they used a roll-a-meter. How they determined the edge of the school is still unclear, I believe they said they simply asked a school official.

Both of those seem challengeable to me, especially if it was close to 1000'....
.

Casual_Shooter
02-02-2010, 3:08 PM
Did I miss where you said what it is you are trying to do that might be affected by the 1000' rule?

GrizzlyGuy
02-02-2010, 3:12 PM
You're welcome to try hang gliding over an elementary school with a couple pistols on your belt.

Wouldn't want to be in the vicinity of the landing site though. :eek:

Ha! Even if we're not armed, you're still not necessarily safe. If we have to land in a strange LZ and can't spot any wind indicators, we'll often drop this thing we call "Death From Above". It's basically a 3ish-foot long spear with a heavy and sharpened steel tip, with streamers attached to the top (instant wind flag). It's harder than it would seem to hit the spot on the ground you're aiming at. If you happen to spot a hang glider setting up an approach, I recommend kicking up some dust so that we don't need to drop the death device. :D

Here is a pretty accurate way to measure the distance to a school zone, if you have a GPS receiver:

1) Find the location on your property that is closest to the school, use the Mark function to store that point as a waypoint.

2) Hit the Goto button and select that waypoint. Now the GPSr will display the distance and bearing to that point.

3) Walk over to the school, walk along the property line, and look at the distance on the screen as you walk. The accuracy would typically be around +/- 20-ish feet (subtract 100 feet from the indicated distance and you'd be plenty safe).

goober
02-02-2010, 3:17 PM
Is there some way to show the entire buffer using Google Maps, or do you just kind of eyeball it using the ruler?

you can hand-draw/eyeball it, but there are better ways, especially if the property lines are complex/convoluted. i'll make a little tutorial on how to create your own buffer polygons in GE later tonight... it's easy.


They measure it with a specially-trained crow on a 1000' leash made of dental floss. Caw! Caw!

lol :D

I can tell you that in my case they used a roll-a-meter. How they determined the edge of the school is still unclear, I believe they said they simply asked a school official.

wow... that is really surprising. i would have expected them to use the easier, less labor-intensive, higher-tech method that would favor the prosecution, rather than that way, which is the opposite.

but hey.... ya learn something every day.
and i bet if the rolly-wheel had said > 1000', they'd have tried the other way! :chris:

sepiid
02-02-2010, 3:20 PM
Wrong thread

goober
02-02-2010, 5:46 PM
POST TEMPORARILY TAKEN OFFLINE DUE TO PROBLEM WITH METHOD

Thanks to Meplat for discovering that the online buffer tool used in this tutorial has issues and is returning erroneous results.

Please do not use the tool until further notice.

When the tool is fixed or an alternative easy & free way to visualize school zone buffers is determined, it will be posted.

Sorry for any inconvenience.

Meplat
02-02-2010, 5:53 PM
How far in did they say you were?

I can tell you that in my case they used a roll-a-meter. How they determined the edge of the school is still unclear, I believe they said they simply asked a school official.

trautert
02-02-2010, 6:15 PM
I still see roll-o-meters at traffic accidents, so that may still be a common tool available to the PD.

Meplat
02-02-2010, 6:27 PM
Ok, correct me if I make any wrong assumptions. You need to be over 1000' from any part of the school property. The property line is probably not the fence line. The true property line is more likely to be the center of the street. Of course the school could always own some adjacent property that is not obvious, even across the street. One would need to have a parcel map, and a surveyor, or the skills thereof to be sure. Even then, let us assume that farmer Brown has agreed to let the garden club use some of that 160AC parcel next to the school; does that then become part of the school? Google Earth aint gonna get it folks.

I think a prosecutorial Charley Foxtrot like the Theseus case is something worth perusing. We need to nail these bozos down.
:D

Librarian
02-02-2010, 8:30 PM
I really prefer fighting back - "You didn't mark it on the ground - I know the law doesn't require you to, but how am I supposed to know if you fail to mark the boundaries?"

Had it not been for the idiots who prosecuted Theseus, I'd say everyone was over thinking this; unfortunately, that one vile counter example raises the problem to something of real consideration.

Theseus
02-02-2010, 8:39 PM
We didn't really present a strong counter-defense for one strong reason. . . Strategy.

The fact that I had even the "investigating officers" testify that there were 5 of 6 ways to get to the location without knowing there was a school wasn't enough. . . I guess that 1 in 6 chance is enough to convict.

N6ATF
02-02-2010, 8:48 PM
Beyond a reasonable doubt is no longer the standard for conviction? Crap.

dantodd
02-02-2010, 8:55 PM
Beyond a reasonable doubt is no longer the standard for conviction? Crap.

Apparently "reasonable doubt" in LA County is no more accurately defined than "reasonable gun laws."

GuyW
02-02-2010, 10:02 PM
I still see roll-o-meters at traffic accidents, so that may still be a common tool available to the PD.

Amost every PD has an accident reconstruction team who have a survey total station (not the most accurate, but better than a roll-a-tape....and even if the PD doesn't, the Public Works guys do...

.

Kerplow
02-02-2010, 11:17 PM
The right answer is that if you in any way lie within 1000 feet of a school -- any part of a school -- you are probably in violation. I wouldn't take any chances on this, especially so given the fact that such things aren't codified in the law.

I just wouldn't risk it.


in violation of what?

wildhawker
02-02-2010, 11:22 PM
in violation of what?

626.9 PC.


626.9.

(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm under any of the following circumstances:

(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the firearm is otherwise lawful.

(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle. This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in accordance with state law.

(3) When the person possessing the firearm reasonably believes that he or she is in grave danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current restraining order issued by a court against another person or persons who has or have been found to pose a threat to his or her life or safety. This subdivision may not apply when the circumstances involve a mutual restraining order issued pursuant to Division 10 (commencing with Section 6200) of the Family Code absent a factual finding of a specific threat to the person's life or safety. Upon a trial for violating subdivision (b), the trier of a fact shall determine whether the defendant was acting out of a reasonable belief that he or she was in grave danger.

(4) When the person is exempt from the prohibition against carrying a concealed firearm pursuant to subdivision (b), (d), (e), or (h) of Section 12027.

(d) Except as provided in subdivision (b), it shall be unlawful for any person, with reckless disregard for the safety of another, to discharge, or attempt to discharge, a firearm in a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e). The prohibition contained in this subdivision does not apply to the discharge of a firearm to the extent that the conditions of paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) are satisfied.

(e) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:

(1) "School zone" means an area in, or on the grounds of, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of the public or private school.

(2) "Firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in Section 12001.

(3) "Locked container" has the same meaning as that term is given in subdivision (c) of Section 12026.1.

(4) "Concealed firearm" has the same meaning as that term is given in Sections 12025 and 12026.1.

(f) (1) Any person who violates subdivision (b) by possessing a firearm in, or on the grounds of, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or five years.

(2) Any person who violates subdivision (b) by possessing a firearm within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or grades 1 to 12, inclusive, shall be punished as follows:

(A) By imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or five years, if any of the following circumstances apply:

(i) If the person previously has been convicted of any felony, or of any crime made punishable by Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 12000) of Title 2 of Part 4.

(ii) If the person is within a class of persons prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code.

(iii) If the firearm is any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person and the offense is punished as a felony pursuant to Section 12025.

(B) By imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one year or by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or five years, in all cases other than those specified in subparagraph (A).

(3) Any person who violates subdivision (d) shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for three, five, or seven years.

(g) (1) Every person convicted under this section for a misdemeanor violation of subdivision (b) who has been convicted previously of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section 12001.6 shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for not less than three months, or if probation is granted or if the execution or imposition of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three months.

(2) Every person convicted under this section of a felony violation of subdivision (b) or (d) who has been convicted previously of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section 12001.6, if probation is granted or if the execution of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three months.

(3) Every person convicted under this section for a felony violation of subdivision (b) or (d) who has been convicted previously of any felony, or of any crime made punishable by Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 12000) of Title 2 of Part 4, if probation is granted or if the execution or imposition of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three months.

(4) The court shall apply the three-month minimum sentence specified in this subdivision, except in unusual cases where the interests of justice would best be served by granting probation or suspending the execution or imposition of sentence without the minimum imprisonment required in this subdivision or by granting probation or suspending the execution or imposition of sentence with conditions other than those set forth in this subdivision, in which case the court shall specify on the record and shall enter on the minutes the circumstances indicating that the interests of justice would best be served by this disposition.

(h) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or possesses a loaded firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or administration by, a public or private university or college, that are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it is with the written permission of the university or college president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.

(i) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or possesses a firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research, or administration by, a public or private university or college, that are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it is with the written permission of the university or college president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for one, two, or three years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.

(j) For purposes of this section, a firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm. A muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

(k) This section does not require that notice be posted regarding the proscribed conduct...

Kerplow
02-02-2010, 11:51 PM
right i get the 626.9PC part but the OP never stated (unless i missed something) he was actually doing anything except living near a school, which does not appear to be a violation.

Theseus
02-02-2010, 11:57 PM
right i get the 626.9PC part but the OP never stated (unless i missed something) he was actually doing anything except living near a school, which does not appear to be a violation.

Living near a school could be pretty close to a violation if you are a target.

Kerplow
02-03-2010, 12:12 AM
Living near a school could be pretty close to a violation if you are a target.

i see. this i understand.

things i've been reading and your story kinda has me bummed about recently moving near a school. i suppose the key is to keep a low profile and try not to piss off the neighbors.

1923mack
02-03-2010, 6:29 AM
Property lines for most jurisdictions are rarely the centeline of the street. They are usually some distance back from the curb (if there is one). 8' or 10' feet is a common setback to a propery line, but it could be any distance. Many property owners put their fences on or near the property line. A property profile map will show distance from cenerline of street to property line.

Normal surveying procedures have distances measured as horizontal distance. On a steep slope, the distance measured with a wheel may show 1000', but the horizontal distance may be 922 feet. If ground is relatively level than measuring with a tape will work just fine. Google maps will get you close, but a tape is the more accurate way to check.

Librarian
02-03-2010, 7:25 AM
Property lines for most jurisdictions are rarely the centeline of the street. They are usually some distance back from the curb (if there is one). 8' or 10' feet is a common setback to a propery line, but it could be any distance. Many property owners put their fences on or near the property line. A property profile map will show distance from cenerline of street to property line.

Normal surveying procedures have distances measured as horizontal distance. On a steep slope, the distance measured with a wheel may show 1000', but the horizontal distance may be 922 feet. If ground is relatively level than measuring with a tape will work just fine. Google maps will get you close, but a tape is the more accurate way to check.

Streets can be funny.

Older subdivisions - pre 1900 mostly, I think - frequently did not have roads indicated, so later grants of streets to cities would read something like 'the west 30 feet of lots 1,3,5, and 7 and the east 30 feet of lots 2,4,6, and 8 of subdivision NoRoads etc'. That might be an easement, where the lot owner still owns that 30 feet, or it might be a straight transfer, if the city would accept it, so the lot owner would no longer own it.

More modern subdivisions have the streets designed in, and the marked areas of the streets usually granted to the city/county.

But to get back to the point of the thread: without a survey on the ground, you cannot KNOW where the precise boundaries of a school zone may be.

Any other mechanism of estimating the location of school zones should include really big safety margins.

goober
02-03-2010, 8:03 AM
Streets can be funny.

Older subdivisions - pre 1900 mostly, I think - frequently did not have roads indicated, so later grants of streets to cities would read something like 'the west 30 feet of lots 1,3,5, and 7 and the east 30 feet of lots 2,4,6, and 8 of subdivision NoRoads etc'. That might be an easement, where the lot owner still owns that 30 feet, or it might be a straight transfer, if the city would accept it, so the lot owner would no longer own it.

More modern subdivisions have the streets designed in, and the marked areas of the streets usually granted to the city/county.

But to get back to the point of the thread: without a survey on the ground, you cannot KNOW where the precise boundaries of a school zone may be.

Any other mechanism of estimating the location of school zones should include really big safety margins.

point taken. GE Tutorial posted earlier has been amended to recommend a 10% safety margin (100').
and real parcel maps are much better than hand-traced guesses of property lines, of course.

wildhawker
02-03-2010, 9:10 AM
point taken. GE Tutorial posted earlier has been amended to recommend a 10% safety margin (100').
and real parcel maps are much better than hand-traced guesses of property lines, of course.

If I lived near a school zone I might see the basis for spending the exorbitant energy to accurately determine the 1000ft zone; outside of that, it's prudent to lock your unloaded guns in non-descript cases for transport.

putput
02-03-2010, 9:27 AM
I was thinking about running around my neighborhood with a tape measurer and a couple of big buckets of yellow and black paint and painting all the curbs that are within a thousand feet of a school with black and yellow stripes so I could be sure. Do ya think I’ll get into any trouble for this?

GuyW
02-03-2010, 11:19 AM
That might be an easement, where the lot owner still owns that 30 feet, or it might be a straight transfer, if the city would accept it, so the lot owner would no longer own it.


The City of LA (and the State of CA for highways and freeways) own the street right of way in fee. In most areas, tho, the street right of way is just an easement, and the adjoining owner owns to the center of the street.

More modern subdivisions have the streets designed in, and the marked areas of the streets usually granted to the city/county.


Same as above comment, plus, the CA Civil Code says that the legal presumption is that the adjoining owner owns to the center of the street...

ergo, if no other information is known, use the centerline of the street as property line...

.

wildhawker
02-03-2010, 11:34 AM
I was thinking about running around my neighborhood with a tape measurer and a couple of big buckets of yellow and black paint and painting all the curbs that are within a thousand feet of a school with black and yellow stripes so I could be sure. Do ya think Iíll get into any trouble for this?

Yes, and you'll also be creating a liability to yourself and others for reliance issues. Only a land surveyor and legal clarification of property rights for each parcel would give an accurate assessment, and such would incur tens of thousands of dollars for each survey.

Meplat
02-03-2010, 11:57 AM
Thank you.:)

Streets can be funny.

Older subdivisions - pre 1900 mostly, I think - frequently did not have roads indicated, so later grants of streets to cities would read something like 'the west 30 feet of lots 1,3,5, and 7 and the east 30 feet of lots 2,4,6, and 8 of subdivision NoRoads etc'. That might be an easement, where the lot owner still owns that 30 feet, or it might be a straight transfer, if the city would accept it, so the lot owner would no longer own it.

More modern subdivisions have the streets designed in, and the marked areas of the streets usually granted to the city/county.

But to get back to the point of the thread: without a survey on the ground, you cannot KNOW where the precise boundaries of a school zone may be.

Any other mechanism of estimating the location of school zones should include really big safety margins.

Meplat
02-03-2010, 12:06 PM
point taken. GE Tutorial posted earlier has been amended to recommend a 10% safety margin (100').
and real parcel maps are much better than hand-traced guesses of property lines, of course.

I can't get that to work. It only gives about a 50' buffer and it makes the polygon opaque.

Meplat
02-03-2010, 12:13 PM
I was thinking about running around my neighborhood with a tape measurer and a couple of big buckets of yellow and black paint and painting all the curbs that are within a thousand feet of a school with black and yellow stripes so I could be sure. Do ya think Iíll get into any trouble for this?

"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
-- Claire Wolfe,

Claire said that a long time ago. I'm just sayin'............:rolleyes:

1923mack
02-03-2010, 12:15 PM
If one wants to be very conservative, use the center of the street. As Librarian says, there are some older development where the streets and sidewalk areas were not deadicated to the local city or county. Unlike what GuyW says this is the norm. Almost all cities require this deadication to grant development maps. I once owned a home on the end of a culdesack. I owned a triange to the center of said culdesack. This however was a private road, not a city street. All the owners on the street owned the land to the center of the street, and easements were there to allow us all to use the street. There are not however to many private streets adjacent to Schools.

GuyW
02-03-2010, 12:29 PM
Unlike what GuyW says this is the norm.

What that I posted is not true?

.

1923mack
02-03-2010, 12:35 PM
That a street right of way is usually an easement (except City of LA) and not a dedicated to the local city or county.

goober
02-03-2010, 12:40 PM
I can't get that to work. It only gives about a 50' buffer and it makes the polygon opaque.

polygon properties (rt-click in TOC, choose properties, display tab) will let you set transparency, outline, and fill colors.

are you having a problem with the poly's you are drawing, or the output from the online buffer tool?
remember the buffer tool wants the distance in meters, so 335 m will get you a 1100" buffer.

best results will be if you save the buffer kml(s) to your HD rather than opening them directly by clicking on them. then open them from within GE.

hope this helps... i find it to be a handy way to at least get a decent idea of where the no-no zones are, especially when they overlap and such.

if you have further difficulties, feel free to PM me.

putput
02-03-2010, 12:50 PM
Yes but, the look on the officers face when I tell em what i'm doing while holding a paintbrush would be priceless... :eek:


Yes, and you'll also be creating a liability to yourself and others for reliance issues. Only a land surveyor and legal clarification of property rights for each parcel would give an accurate assessment, and such would incur tens of thousands of dollars for each survey.

SteveH
02-03-2010, 12:54 PM
I still see roll-o-meters at traffic accidents, so that may still be a common tool available to the PD.

Rolatape
Steel Tape
Laser
GPS
Google earth

All commonly used when investigating injury traffic collisions.


In non-injury traffic reports they even sometimes use pacing or visual estimation.

GuyW
02-03-2010, 1:24 PM
That a street right of way is usually an easement (except City of LA) and not a dedicated to the local city or county.

A dedication IS an easement to the agency....
.

taloft
02-03-2010, 1:53 PM
Don't forget every small, hidden, charter and private school. Not all schools are owned by the state.

1923mack
02-03-2010, 2:06 PM
A dedication is when you relinquish ownership and give said ownership to the city. An easement is when you still own the property, but allow other to use or access part of it. On my private road example, there were about 30 homes along the private road and they all granted me an easement to drive on the private street to get to my property. If that road were ever to become a city street, all 30 property owners would have to dedicate the 25 foot or so frontage to the city.

Geodetic
02-03-2010, 2:22 PM
Dedication and easement are not always totally different things either. A lot of public roads are dedicated easements for public road purposes. Many times the property owner(s) own the underlying title to the property. You are now walking into the realm of land law. As if it wasn't complicated enough already :TFH:

Theseus
02-03-2010, 2:36 PM
I think the real issue at hand is that 626.9 measurement is from the grounds of the school, not property line.

bulgron
02-03-2010, 2:50 PM
I think the real issue at hand is that 626.9 measurement is from the grounds of the school, not property line.

There's a difference?

This is giving me a headache.

When do we start the federal lawsuit to have the California GFSZ declared unconstitutional, and how do we make sure that we also make it impossible to write "Not within 1000' feet of a school" on a California CCW?

Theseus
02-03-2010, 3:07 PM
There's a difference?

This is giving me a headache.

When do we start the federal lawsuit to have the California GFSZ declared unconstitutional, and how do we make sure that we also make it impossible to write "Not within 1000' feet of a school" on a California CCW?

In the law I have noticed, every little nuance can make a law mean something else.

The real issue here is again in determining what are and are not the school grounds. In Virginia our schools would use community recreation areas for their PE classes. The property was fully open for use by the public, even during school hours. Would these parks be part of the school grounds?

GuyW
02-05-2010, 12:34 PM
A dedication is when you relinquish ownership and give said ownership to the city. An easement is when you still own the property, but allow other to use or access part of it.

"In response to Council Member Hall, the Director indicated that data has not yet been compiled regarding how the specific pieces of right-of-way were dedicated. The City Attorney indicated that right-of-way dedicated as an easement is less complicated to vacate than right-of-way dedicated in fee. He noted the City’s position that right-of-way was probably dedicated as an easement unless there is some evidence to the contrary."

http://www.norco.ca.us/civica/filebank/blobdload.asp?BlobID=2619
.

orangeusa
02-05-2010, 12:54 PM
Man, the hoops we have to jump through, if we know about them.... I've been trying to get up to speed on CA gun laws and after a year, have more questions than knowlege!!

So, I suppose using your tacticool laser rangefinder to estimate would be a bad idea.. :)

SixPointEight
02-05-2010, 1:21 PM
Man, the hoops we have to jump through, if we know about them.... I've been trying to get up to speed on CA gun laws and after a year, have more questions than knowlege!!

So, I suppose using your tacticool laser rangefinder to estimate would be a bad idea.. :)

If you take it off the gun it might be a better idea