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goodlookin1
01-29-2010, 7:07 AM
Hey guys,

This may be a ridiculous question, but I was talking to a guy at a gun store and we were discussing optics and looking at the ACOG's. I noticed the TA31F has terrible eye relief (like inch and a half at best)....so bad that you come really close to or have your face touch the charging handle to see the full picture. He then proceeded to tell me that you have to be careful because if your gun is not clean, the CH can get stuck on the bolt and come firing back at your face, knocking out some teeth or worse. He told me a story of a guy in the military that it happened to (Ya, I know how those go....a "friend of my friend's buddy had this happen"). Probably just another old wive's tale circulating amongst the military comrades, but it did get me second guessing how close I want my face to that section of the gun. It at least sounds feasible, and I like my teeth right where they are :D

Is there any credibility to this potentially happening? A quick google search came up with no such stories.

technique
01-29-2010, 7:13 AM
Nope. I run my gun dirty as all hell. I have a Ta31F...never heard or experienced such a thing.
I also have zero eye relief issues...

ETA: most guys (deployed) clean their weapons very frequently. Even in a sustained firefight, a load out (average) is 300rnds or less. That would be somewhat rare or extreme to even fire ALL of that at once...
I haven't cleaned in 2K+..no issues.

DENCO
01-29-2010, 7:21 AM
Cool something else to think about:D

45R
01-29-2010, 7:39 AM
The latch on the charging handle probably broke or was not locked up with the receiver when it was fired.

Jim_KT
01-29-2010, 7:46 AM
Nope. I run my gun dirty as all hell. I have a Ta31F...never heard or experienced such a thing.
I also have zero eye relief issues...


I've heard of, but never experienced such a thing. There has been an account on m4carbine.net in which one guy in a class wrote about the loss of his PRI latch and experienced the CH gently tapping him in the face.

The latch either broke or there is something seirously wrong with the weapon. If the latch is NOT broken and the well in the upper receiver is in functioning order then I cannot see how such a thing would occur without major incident.

99sparks
01-29-2010, 7:53 AM
Yea! What R45 said? If the charging handle is not fully forward and locked in it will follow the bolt back. That is why you should release the charging handle at full pull. Let it slam forward. Do not attempt to let it go forward slowly.

Jim_KT
01-29-2010, 8:00 AM
Here's a challenge that we can all do. Ride the bolt forward and see if you can get it to go into battery WITHOUT having the charging handle latch itself to the upper receiver. I've done this on six of my uppers and cannot get that condition to occur.

I don't know how that is possible with FUNCTIONING components. Give it a try. Allowing the bolt to fly home is mostly advised in order to get the weapon to go into battery.

If the weapon does fire out of battery, then there are bigger problems to deal with than the charging handle flying back.

Sniper3142
01-29-2010, 8:04 AM
The charging handle might move backwards if not properly latched but it WILL NOT do any real damage.

I've fired my AR with the charging handle not fully seated and while it did move backwards during firing, it did have any real force to it. The CH on an AR15 is what is called non-reciprocating. That means is does not move with the bolt when the rifle is fired.

technique
01-29-2010, 8:07 AM
People bust latches all the time...
It makes no sense that the handle would come rearward...there is nothing there to send it back at you, only to take it forward.

Further more, do you really think a little tiny latch, and a little notch are holding the CH in place and stopping it from smacking you in the face? Really? No! Really? Come on?
With rapid fire? Full auto? No!!!




Jim KT, I understand. I have broken several CH's (PRI) and I posted about it.
In that very thread IIRC, is a guy who did the same. He continued firing and did not get hit in the face. There is nothing the BCG would hit to push it back.

KALIDAWG8996
01-29-2010, 8:09 AM
I agree with Sniper on this one...the charging handle may slide back but, with no significant force....I call bum gouge on this one.

Stockton
01-29-2010, 8:10 AM
Wouldn't worry about the latch. Just make sure it locks in properly. Placing your the tip of your nose on the charging handle is a method for repeating a good cheek weld.

45R
01-29-2010, 8:12 AM
You learn "someting" new everyday!

buffybuster
01-29-2010, 8:24 AM
It's a non-reciprocating design. During any normal operation there is no way it can come back with any force. If the gas carrier key were to blow out, then it could conceivably catch the charging handle on the way back, but I've never seen that happen. I've seen a number of M16/M4's fired to failure/destruction and that never happened.

Jim_KT
01-29-2010, 8:25 AM
People bust latches all the time...
It makes no sense that the handle would come rearward...there is nothing there to send it back at you, only to take it forward.

Further more, do you really think a little tiny latch, and a little notch are holding the CH in place and stopping it from smacking you in the face? Really? No! Really? Come on?
With rapid fire? Full auto? No!!!




Jim KT, I understand. I have broken several CH's (PRI) and I posted about it.
In that very thread IIRC, is a guy who did the same. He continued firing and did not get hit in the face. There is nothing the BCG would hit to push it back.

Absolutely agree with you. I wasn't disagreeing with ya'.

This is a topic that I see crop up every now and then and for some reason is the only topic that actually annoys me with regard to the AR.

I had a guy at the range a few years back try and "instruct" me to ensure tha CH was fully forward AFTER the bolt flew home, even with functioning and in-spec components. I asked him to explain to me how that was physically possible and offered my own AR at the time as a prop/visual aide. He couldn't for the life of him get that condition to happen but still claims that it will occur if I did not push the CH forward.

ar15barrels
01-29-2010, 9:03 AM
The only time a charging handle jumps out of the upper during firing is if you are using a buffer that's too short for the buffer tube.
An example would be a carbine buffer in a rifle buffer tube.

When you use the proper buffer with the proper tube, the rearward travel of the carrier is limited by the buffer in the buffer tube.
When you use the wrong combination, the gas key can hit the inside of the charging handle and send it back at you.

Bug Splat
01-29-2010, 9:23 AM
Tell that to this guy.....

This is Richard. He is one the most experienced Black Opp Tactical combat fighter to ever walk the earth. Never heard of him? That because he is that good.

He will never forget the day his CH was dirty from firing 3000 round non-stop and slammed into his face and took out his front teeth and broke his jaw while stopping a nuclear threat in Canada. Never heard about it? Again, he is that good.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_B1LlYh6iKqs/SrA_BoH0DYI/AAAAAAAAAww/zcjP_ooJ3pI/s400/missing-teeth-2.jpg

goodlookin1
01-29-2010, 9:35 AM
Tell that to this guy.....

This is Richard. He is one the most experienced Black Opp Tactical combat fighter to ever walk the earth. Never heard of him? That because he is that good.

He will never forget the day his CH was dirty from firing 3000 round non-stop and slammed into his face and took out his front teeth and broke his jaw while stopping a nuclear threat in Canada. Never heard about it? Again, he is that good.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_B1LlYh6iKqs/SrA_BoH0DYI/AAAAAAAAAww/zcjP_ooJ3pI/s400/missing-teeth-2.jpg

Smeagol?

:rofl:

Noonanda
01-29-2010, 12:05 PM
Tell that to this guy.....

This is Richard. He is one the most experienced Black Opp Tactical combat fighter to ever walk the earth. Never heard of him? That because he is that good.

He will never forget the day his CH was dirty from firing 3000 round non-stop and slammed into his face and took out his front teeth and broke his jaw while stopping a nuclear threat in Canada. Never heard about it? Again, he is that good.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_B1LlYh6iKqs/SrA_BoH0DYI/AAAAAAAAAww/zcjP_ooJ3pI/s400/missing-teeth-2.jpg

Doesnt this guy work with Jack Bower and Chuck Norris

Seesm
01-29-2010, 12:12 PM
I am saying nahhhh.

turbochris
01-29-2010, 12:14 PM
dont think this can happen

264charlie
01-29-2010, 12:22 PM
Ever watch a high power shoot? Lots of guys with nose touching the charging handle every shot...

Hey guys,

This may be a ridiculous question, but I was talking to a guy at a gun store and we were discussing optics and looking at the ACOG's. I noticed the TA31F has terrible eye relief (like inch and a half at best)....so bad that you come really close to or have your face touch the charging handle to see the full picture. He then proceeded to tell me that you have to be careful because if your gun is not clean, the CH can get stuck on the bolt and come firing back at your face, knocking out some teeth or worse. He told me a story of a guy in the military that it happened to (Ya, I know how those go....a "friend of my friend's buddy had this happen"). Probably just another old wive's tale circulating amongst the military comrades, but it did get me second guessing how close I want my face to that section of the gun. It at least sounds feasible, and I like my teeth right where they are :D

Is there any credibility to this potentially happening? A quick google search came up with no such stories.

killshot44
01-29-2010, 12:30 PM
Tell that to this guy.....

This is Richard. He is one the most experienced Black Opp Tactical combat fighter to ever walk the earth. Never heard of him? That because he is that good.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_B1LlYh6iKqs/SrA_BoH0DYI/AAAAAAAAAww/zcjP_ooJ3pI/s400/missing-teeth-2.jpg

That is just great, blowing "Richards" cover - do you know how much danger you've placed him in?

DO YOU ?

travo5100
01-29-2010, 12:45 PM
I agree with previous posters. 1st, the latch on the charging handle would have to be broken., 2nd, the charging handle/ bolt carrier group would have to be extremely dirty/fouled up to create the fit needed to give the charging handle any real force behind it. I've seen broken latches before and the instant it touches face/hand/ or whatever, it stops dead in it's tracks. Like i said, it would have to be a criminally fouled up bolt/charging handle for it to grab on and give it any force.

Bug Splat
01-29-2010, 1:02 PM
That is just great, blowing "Richards" cover - do you know how much danger you've placed him in?

DO YOU ?

I just killed myself and all of us didn't I :eek:

ar15barrels
01-29-2010, 1:04 PM
Ever watch a high power shoot? Lots of guys with nose touching the charging handle every shot...

It's so they don't get hit in the teef... ;)

VictorFranko
01-29-2010, 1:23 PM
Ever watch a high power shoot? Lots of guys with nose touching the charging handle every shot...

If your stock is adjusted properly, your nose should just about be touching the charging handle. Most shoot with their stock too long, IMHO.

shark92651
01-29-2010, 1:30 PM
Further proof that some of the worse mis-information about guns comes out of gun shops. Your charging handle would pretty much have to be seriously jammed up, probably with epoxy, for something like this to happen. Besides - who lines their teeth up with the charging handle - if you are shooting correctly it should break your nose, not your teeth.

NiteQwill
01-29-2010, 2:29 PM
A proper cheek weld and sight picture should have your nose touching the CH. It's funny watching guys at the range attempt to zero their rifle with their nose a good 6-8 inches away from the CH.

MasterYong
01-29-2010, 2:42 PM
I have over 1000 rounds in my beater AR with no problems (only boresnaked, never cleaned anything in the upper.).

If I'm ever in a situation where I fire 1000 rounds without having the opportunity to check the weapon out I'd say I'm screwed anyway...

Bug Splat
01-29-2010, 3:03 PM
A proper cheek weld and sight picture should have your nose touching the CH. It's funny watching guys at the range attempt to zero their rifle with their nose a good 6-8 inches away from the CH.

Not true. People are taught NTCH because they can't grasp the concept of a proper cheek weld on their own. NTCH is not required or needed at all. Many were taught that way so they shoot that way.

NiteQwill
01-29-2010, 4:34 PM
Not true. People are taught NTCH because they can't grasp the concept of a proper cheek weld on their own. NTCH is not required or needed at all. Many were taught that way so they shoot that way.

So you're saying that one can group and zero their rifle (AR irons, of course) by having their cheek weld a good 6-8 inches away from the charging handle? One cannot even obtain a proper sight picture without proper NTCH.

I guarantee one who uses NTCH will group and zero in 12 rounds versus one who doesn't.

Jim_KT
01-29-2010, 4:42 PM
^^^

Taking this off topic, but I used to be a strict proponent of NTCH. I still practice that indexing technique, but have seen quite a few zero/shoot and peform very well without practicing NTCH albeit not 6-8" away from the rear sight. Good cheek/stock weld and sight picture can be obtained via muscle memory. I for one cannot claim that my cheek/stock weld is EXACTLY the same each and ever time but NTCH does help increase the likelihood that it will be.

NiteQwill
01-29-2010, 4:54 PM
^^^

Taking this off topic, but I used to be a strict proponent of NTCH. I still practice that indexing technique, but have seen quite a few zero/shoot and peform very well without practicing NTCH albeit not 6-8" away from the rear sight. Good cheek/stock weld and sight picture can be obtained via muscle memory. I for one cannot claim that my cheek/stock weld is EXACTLY the same each and ever time but NTCH does help increase the likelihood that it will be.

That's what I mean. I understand what BugSplat was saying. But for folks unfamiliar with the platform, it's sometimes hard to understand (or perform the task) why a consistent shooting position is necessary to group and zero the rifle. I was simply stating that NTCH is most likely the best way to obtain such accuracy, consistently.

Bug Splat
01-29-2010, 4:57 PM
So you're saying that one can group and zero their rifle (AR irons, of course) by having their cheek weld a good 6-8 inches away from the charging handle? One cannot even obtain a proper sight picture without proper NTCH.

I guarantee one who uses NTCH will group and zero in 12 rounds versus one who doesn't.

It only takes me 3-4 rounds to zero and I don't use it. NTCH is only for training those new to shooting. Only 2 point of reference (front sight and rear sight) are needed to aim. You can hold the rifle 4 feet back and still shoot dead on if you are consistent. I hate NTCH. I refused to use it even when my military buddies insist I should. I'm a 100 times better shot then them and they still claim to know "the right way". Finding your comfortable shooting position is far more important than cramming your nose into a block of metal.

Jim_KT
01-29-2010, 4:58 PM
NiteQwill: I would agree with your statement. NTCH is probably the most expedient way to get new shooters up and running quickly.

NiteQwill
01-29-2010, 5:28 PM
It only takes me 3-4 rounds to zero and I don't use it.

If you can group and zero a rifle in 3-4 rounds at 50 yds, you are my hero. Seriously. :D

I consistently group 6/6 then zero 6/6 within 2 cm.

ar15barrels
01-29-2010, 5:34 PM
If you can group and zero a rifle in 3-4 rounds at 50 yds, you are my hero. Seriously. :D

When I zeroed my 243, I started by bore sighting it via looking down the barrel.
I fired 1 round into the 100yd berm to let my spotter call a correction.
I dialed the correction and moved to paper.
I fired another round and made another 3 moa correction.
Then I fired a 5 round group and made a 3/4 moa correction and that's about where it's stayed for almost 600 rounds.
Mind you, those were the very first rounds though the barrel after having been chambered just a couple nights before.

I did not HAVE to fire the 5 round group, 2 would have sufficed as they were all in the same big hole anyways...

MasterYong
01-29-2010, 5:55 PM
Uuuuhhhhh you can zero a rifle in 2 shots easy. Google it.

flyermike
01-29-2010, 6:00 PM
for proper sight picture with iron sights your nose is going to be touching the charging handle atleast thats what they told me to do in the army

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:M16_rifle_correct_sight_picture_fig_4-18.png

NiteQwill
01-29-2010, 6:56 PM
Uuuuhhhhh you can zero a rifle in 2 shots easy. Google it.

When you have the eyes of a 95 year old, my 9-12 rounds is equal to 2. :D

264charlie
01-29-2010, 9:05 PM
When I zeroed my 243, I started by bore sighting it via looking down the barrel.
I fired 1 round into the 100yd berm to let my spotter call a correction.
I dialed the correction and moved to paper.
I fired another round and made another 3 moa correction.
Then I fired a 5 round group and made a 3/4 moa correction and that's about where it's stayed for almost 600 rounds.
Mind you, those were the very first rounds though the barrel after having been chambered just a couple nights before.

I did not HAVE to fire the 5 round group, 2 would have sufficed as they were all in the same big hole anyways...

But you can see the laser as it fires.... LOL

Sniper3142
01-30-2010, 12:41 AM
So you're saying that one can group and zero their rifle (AR irons, of course) by having their cheek weld a good 6-8 inches away from the charging handle? One cannot even obtain a proper sight picture without proper NTCH.

I guarantee one who uses NTCH will group and zero in 12 rounds versus one who doesn't.

The ARMY teaches NTCH because they are trying to get people qualified on their rifle the fastest and easiest way possible.

Now... the MARINES do not teach NTCH. The Marine Corps teaches basic and advanced MARKSMANSHIP skills. Marines learn shooting fundementals.

The ARMY soldiers usually can't hit the broad side of a barn... from the inside.

Marines regularly shoot and qualify out to 500 yards every year. Most ARMY dogs don't even believe an M16 is able to accurately hit a man sized target that far out.

;)

xaaronx
01-30-2010, 1:04 AM
Wouldn't worry about the latch. Just make sure it locks in properly. Placing your the tip of your nose on the charging handle is a method for repeating a good cheek weld.

I was taught the same, nose to the charging handle. Im not worried about the charging handle, and Ive never seen an AR get even close to being fouled enough to catch the handle.

NiteQwill
01-30-2010, 6:17 AM
The ARMY teaches NTCH because they are trying to get people qualified on their rifle the fastest and easiest way possible.

Now... the MARINES do not teach NTCH. The Marine Corps teaches basic and advanced MARKSMANSHIP skills. Marines learn shooting fundementals.

The ARMY soldiers usually can't hit the broad side of a barn... from the inside.

Marines regularly shoot and qualify out to 500 yards every year. Most ARMY dogs don't even believe an M16 is able to accurately hit a man sized target that far out.

;)
I'm sorry that you joined the wrong service. My sincerest apologies. ;)

rkt88edmo
01-30-2010, 6:59 AM
Ever watch a high power shoot? Lots of guys with nose touching the charging handle every shot...

Yeah - once upon a time there were these things called "iron sights" which were commonly referred to as "sights" and people used them to aim their rifles. The proper use of said sights on the AR platform was a "nose-to-charging-handle" cheekweld.

I am sure the hundreds of thousands of US military shooters would have exposed any possible problem with stuck charging handles.

rkt88edmo
01-30-2010, 7:01 AM
The ARMY teaches NTCH because they are trying to get people qualified on their rifle the fastest and easiest way possible.

Now... the MARINES do not teach NTCH. The Marine Corps teaches basic and advanced MARKSMANSHIP skills. Marines learn shooting fundementals.

The ARMY soldiers usually can't hit the broad side of a barn... from the inside.

Marines regularly shoot and qualify out to 500 yards every year. Most ARMY dogs don't even believe an M16 is able to accurately hit a man sized target that far out.

;)

If that was the standard, I'd love to see the Marine field manual on the techniques they used with ghost ring sights - honestly.

BigAL
01-30-2010, 7:26 AM
I used the NTCH technique with iron sights when I ran an A2 carry handle. Now with non-magnified red dot sights it's less of an issue. But I still find it's better to get closer than way back as it allows better "fighting stance" posture for recoil control. As such, I run my collapse-able stocks at the first setting longer than completely collapsed.