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View Full Version : Question on legality of VERTICAL grips


addyyoon
01-28-2010, 7:57 AM
Now CA PC states:

"forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger."

Does that apply to straight vertical grips? I only ask because I was looking for one and many were labeled vertical pistol grip, but I don't think I've ever seen a grip on a pistol without an angle.

Thanks CGers

-Adrian

dark45
01-28-2010, 8:31 AM
I think your arguing semantics here. I believe any pistol style grip is ANYTHING that would allow you to grasp the firearm forward of the trigger, regardless of the shape or angle. And the word "style" allows them to argue semantics back at you and easily change there definitions on the fly.

addyyoon
01-28-2010, 8:39 AM
So vertical grips WOULD fall under the (ridiculous) CA AW feature list?

EBR Works
01-28-2010, 9:01 AM
So vertical grips WOULD fall under the (ridiculous) CA AW feature list?

Yes and if you put a vertical forward grip on a pistol, Federal AOW regulations apply.

addyyoon
01-28-2010, 9:21 AM
And CA AW laws prohibit two or more features on a rifle (not including rimfires)? So a stock Kel-Tec SU-16CA with a vertical grip would be considered an "assault weapon?"

MudCamper
01-28-2010, 9:29 AM
And CA AW laws prohibit two or more features on a rifle (not including rimfires)? So a stock Kel-Tec SU-16CA with a vertical grip would be considered an "assault weapon?"

You're thinking of the expired federal law. CA law states any one feature.

See the http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

thefinger
01-28-2010, 9:30 AM
I think your arguing semantics here. I believe any pistol style grip is ANYTHING that would allow you to grasp the firearm forward of the trigger, regardless of the shape or angle. And the word "style" allows them to argue semantics back at you and easily change there definitions on the fly.

That's incorrect. If your statement was correct then any handguard on a rifle would be illegal. "Pistol style grip" has been very well defined by the authorities. That's the reason MonsterMan grips are legal for featureless rifles. In fact, you could even run a MonsterMan or Solar Tactical grip on the handguard if you want. They are NOT considered "pistol grips."

So vertical grips WOULD fall under the (ridiculous) CA AW feature list?

Yes.

Yes and if you put a vertical forward grip on a pistol, Federal AOW regulations apply.

True.

Its worth pointing out that while you can run a MonsterMan or Solar Tactical grip (and maybe even a Magpul AFG) on a rifle in CA, you CANNOT run any of them on a pistol.

So your AR15 rifle can have a VFG if you're running a BB.

Your AR15 rifle can run a MM or Solar grip on the handguard if a featureless build.

Your AR15 PISTOL cannot have any VFG, MM or Solar grip on the handguard at all. That would violate federal law unless you got an AOW tax stamp.

addyyoon
01-28-2010, 9:38 AM
Thank you guys for the informed responses, and thank you California for destroying my dreams of being "tacti-cool." :banghead:

DedEye
01-28-2010, 10:10 AM
Thank you guys for the informed responses, and thank you California for destroying my dreams of being "tacti-cool." :banghead:

Or you could, you know, man up and get a bullet button equipped AR and tacticool it out to your heart's content. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#.22Bullet_Button.22_Questions)

The link provided references bullet buttons since they're so integral to legally adding evil features like VFGs, and a semantic cluster**** about what defines forward pistol grip isn't frequently asked enough as to be included in the FAQ.

Also, the Mauser C96 has the closest to a purely vertical grip of any pistol I can recall, and even it has an angle.

addyyoon
01-28-2010, 1:26 PM
Haha thanks DedEye. I'm fully aware of the CA legal AR's out there. I was just hoping to work on my SU-16CA. As a future member of the military, I would like to be able to replicate normal reloading procedures (I know AR and SU reloading is different, but I was referencing swift mag changes) when I am looking for some trigger time when I'm not on Active Duty (I have a year in between my training schedules in order to finish college). It's definitely an option for the future though when $$ is less of a problem.

DedEye
01-28-2010, 1:35 PM
Haha thanks DedEye. I'm fully aware of the CA legal AR's out there. I was just hoping to work on my SU-16CA. As a future member of the military, I would like to be able to replicate normal reloading procedures (I know AR and SU reloading is different, but I was referencing swift mag changes) when I am looking for some trigger time when I'm not on Active Duty (I have a year in between my training schedules in order to finish college). It's definitely an option for the future though when $$ is less of a problem.

Marine PLC?

You don't need a forward grip to work on your tactical reloads. In fact, most TTPs emphasize using your support hand to reload while maintaining primary control of the weapon with the pistol grip, not the fore end.

The manual of arms will be completely different between an SU16 and an AR15 pattern rifle.

Your best bet is probably a rimfire AR, even though the weight of magazines is different from a standard 5.56mm magazine, and most (all?) dedicated .22 uppers don't use the bolt catch.

Another option may be the M&P15-22. The weight is off from a standard AR, but that's easily corrected (everyone already hangs a bunch of **** off their rifles anyway, now you can justify it to yourself as a "training aid") and from what I can recall the bolt hold open works.

There's always airsoft...

addyyoon
01-28-2010, 1:57 PM
Haha the day I turned 18 I swore I wouldn't ever touch an airsoft gun again. Went and bought my first gun after school was over haha. I'm familiar with both manual of arms and what I mean was I'd rather have the ability to swap magazines quickly than have a VFG. I can't think of anyone who reloads the magazine with their trigger hand! Doesn't make sense to me. Anyways, I just wanted to have that VFG on my SU as a means of stabilization when implementing tactical training drills and such. I'm in the 92 Day Reservist program and I plan on moving to PLC after Infantry school.

addyyoon
01-28-2010, 3:57 PM
New question regarding VFGs. What if I were to buy one that folded like this one?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001WJ5JMW/ref=s9_simi_gw_p200_t2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0XJT768FG7DK7A2KJJR5&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

ke6guj
01-28-2010, 4:03 PM
still a "forward grip", just one that folds away for storage.

My375hp302
01-28-2010, 4:11 PM
still a "forward grip", just one that folds away for storage.

Read the law, it doesn't say "forward grip" it says forward PISTOL grip. Every rifle has a forward grip. But anything that folds down to a pistol grip is still out of the question on a featureless rifle.

I think a good way to look at it is if your thumb on your left hand (assuming right handed) is on the left side of the gun your ok, if in holding the grip you can move your thumb to the right side of the gun it's a "pistol style grip".

addyyoon
01-28-2010, 4:17 PM
That's what I thought, but it was worth a shot -_- Nice definition My375hp302

dark45
01-29-2010, 5:25 AM
That's incorrect. If your statement was correct then any handguard on a rifle would be illegal. "Pistol style grip" has been very well defined by the authorities. That's the reason MonsterMan grips are legal for featureless rifles. In fact, you could even run a MonsterMan or Solar Tactical grip on the handguard if you want. They are NOT considered "pistol grips."

i was talking about forward of the trigger it dosn't matter the shape or angle if its a front grip its a pistol style grip to the authorities right?. but i see how when i said "grasp the fire arm" makes it sound as if i mean grabbing it anywhere. i just ment veritcal pistol stle grips. if im still wrong please enlighten me. cause i was almost sure anything forward the trigger like a pistole grip veritcal grip and so on needed a bulletbutton.