PDA

View Full Version : More UOC in the news...


edwardm
01-28-2010, 3:27 AM
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14282441


ReprintPrint Email Font Resize
News report inspires man to display gun in E. Palo Alto store

By Jessica Bernstein-Wax

Daily News Staff Writer
Posted: 01/28/2010 03:00:00 AM PST

A man apparently inspired by a news report on Open Carry gun activists strolled into an East Palo Alto supermarket with a handgun on his hip Wednesday and began shopping for groceries, police said.

The store manager at Mi Pueblo Food Center in the Ravenswood 101 shopping complex alerted police after patrons became frightened, said East Palo Alto police Sgt. Roderick Norris.

About four officers responded and found the man with an unloaded, holstered handgun on his hip and a loaded magazine in his pocket shopping in the store. Police determined he hadn't broken any laws, but the store manager asked him to leave, Norris said.

"Each business has the prerogative not to serve anyone that they want," Norris said. "He's not part of any group or organization according to him. He just wanted to exercise his rights. I guess he ... saw on TV that it was legal to do so."

The man, who lives in Redwood City, later apologized to police and said "he didn't really think it out," Norris added.

Open Carry advocates have made headlines in recent weeks for displaying unloaded, holstered guns in public places around the Bay Area. The group has said it wants every state to legalize carrying loaded guns in public.

California Penal Code bars carrying concealed weapons without a county-issued license but says it isn't a crime to openly display a firearm in a belt holster. However, it remains illegal for the gun to be loaded in most cases.

"The concern for us is that you don't know what the mind set of this person is," Norris said. "You don't know if they're out there just expressing their right to do this or if they have something more sinister in mind."

In a statement earlier this month, Lt. Ray Lunny of the San Mateo County Sheriff's Office warned residents that officers have the authority to examine visible firearms to make sure they are unloaded.

"Open carry advocates create a potentially very dangerous situation," Lunny said. "When police are called to a 'man with a gun' call they typically are responding to a situation about which they have few details other than that one or more people are present at a location and are armed. Officers may have no idea that these people are simply 'exercising their rights.' "

:rolleyes:

Robidouxs
01-28-2010, 5:15 AM
I just wonder how long it is until a member of the public "accidentally" injures a UOC since they "feared for their life."

Tack
01-28-2010, 6:15 AM
I just wonder how long it is until a member of the public "accidentally" injures a UOC since they "feared for their life."

Until the second amendment is incorporated into state constitutions and we can LOC, us UOCs had best walk in groups. I am aware that I'm carrying an expensive prize on my hip when I OC, and do not want my gun taken away by surprise.

On second thought, irrationally 'fearing for your life' is a sign of mental instability if not a hate crime.

Would you try and grab a gun from three guys carrying? I would not, but I'm not nuts.

Tack

SIGscout
01-28-2010, 6:34 AM
"The concern for us is that you don't know what the mind set of this person is," Norris said.

LOL... He's F****** shopping. He is probably in the mind set of: I'M HUNGERY SO I'M GONNA GET ME SOME FOOD.

Tack is right on
" irrationally 'fearing for your life' is a sign of mental instability if not a hate crime."

Chris M
01-28-2010, 6:50 AM
"You don't know if they're out there just expressing their right to do this or if they have something more sinister in mind."

Does he seriously think that someone who is about to commit a crime is going to Open Carry?

bodger
01-28-2010, 6:54 AM
About four officers responded and found the man with an unloaded, holstered handgun on his hip and a loaded magazine in his pocket shopping in the store. Police determined he hadn't broken any laws, but the store manager asked him to leave, Norris said.


I wonder if that loaded magazine "in his pocket" was concealed.
If so, isn't that breaking the law?

cdtx2001
01-28-2010, 6:57 AM
About four officers responded and found the man with an unloaded, holstered handgun on his hip and a loaded magazine in his pocket shopping in the store. Police determined he hadn't broken any laws, but the store manager asked him to leave, Norris said.


I wonder if that loaded magazine "in his pocket" was concealed.
If so, isn't that breaking the law?

No, he is not breaking the law.

GrizzlyGuy
01-28-2010, 6:58 AM
About four officers responded and found the man with an unloaded, holstered handgun on his hip and a loaded magazine in his pocket shopping in the store. Police determined he hadn't broken any laws, but the store manager asked him to leave, Norris said.


I wonder if that loaded magazine "in his pocket" was concealed.
If so, isn't that breaking the law?

From here (http://californiaopencarry.org/faq.html):

I've heard concealed magazines are illegal. Is that true?

While there is no code that supports this, there was an appellate case in 1974, People v. Hale, that ruled this way. It ruled that although the firearm in question was not concealed, the magazine was, and that only partial concealment is still concealment, and that the magazine was an "essential component" of the firearm. The logic is tortured beyond belief, but it currently could be used as a persuasive precedent in court. One way to avoid this pitfall is to carry your magazines in belt holsters, so that they match the 12025(f) language of "carried openly in belt holsters". Another option would be to keep an unloaded magazine in the firearm, thereby "completing" the firearm, and invalidating the asinine "essential component" logic.

bodger
01-28-2010, 7:11 AM
So it's not illegal but if you do conceal a loaded magazine you might get charged. And if a DA can convince a jury that you were concealing an essential component of the firearm, and that it is illegal to do so, you could get convicted.

This state is a neurotic joke.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 7:16 AM
LOL, why is it always supermarkets and coffee shops in upscale suburbs?

If someone really wants to prove a point. They should OC where I live (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sobrante%20park).

:p

SVPRApps
01-28-2010, 7:25 AM
but then if you concealed the gun in your pocket, out of sight, no one can see it....then it wouldn't cause a scene....but its illegal. :rolleyes:

Nodda Duma
01-28-2010, 7:27 AM
Is this not a Good Thing? Citizens unassociated with the UOC movement carrying openly in a LEGAL fashion and going about their daily lives without trying to make a statement. There is still a long road ahead, but the guy in this article is the desired end product (without resultant harrassment by shop owners and LEO). Ie, a Free World to bear arms in.

davescz
01-28-2010, 7:33 AM
east palo alto is hardly upscale. if more folks there had guns, the murder rate would drop. one more store to boycott

oaklander
01-28-2010, 7:34 AM
Exactly how do you UOC in California without making a statement?

If you AREN'T making a statement, then the gun is just a "fashion accessory." Unless he was really carrying it for self-defense out of some delusion that he was in a dangerous supermarket.

I have a grudging respect for anyone who makes a political point with their actions. Even if I disagree with their point.

But guns as fashion accessories? That's just weak.

Is this not a Good Thing? Citizens unassociated with the UOC movement carrying openly in a LEGAL fashion and going about their daily lives without trying to make a statement. There is still a long road ahead, but the guy in this article is the desired end product (without resultant harrassment by shop owners and LEO). Ie, a Free World to bear arms in.

Uxi
01-28-2010, 7:38 AM
Officers may have no idea that these people are simply 'exercising their rights.'

ROFL. How about they do their f'ing jobs and figure it out.

sepiid
01-28-2010, 7:56 AM
oaklander LOL, why is it always supermarkets and coffee shops in upscale suburbs?

If someone really wants to prove a point. They should OC where I live.



HAHA, i live about 3-4 blocks from there, if this is the upscale suburb then compton must be the ritz carlton.

that particular store is situated right in the middle of the GHETTO. right near university avenue and 101 across from the ikea.

Python2
01-28-2010, 8:12 AM
LOL, why is it always supermarkets and coffee shops in upscale suburbs?

If someone really wants to prove a point. They should OC where I live (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sobrante%20park).

:p

Exactly what he did, carry in a place similar to where you live:) EPA not WPA.

edwardm
01-28-2010, 8:23 AM
Well, at least it was East Palo Alto, and not something like Woodside or Belmont Hills. ;)

LOL, why is it always supermarkets and coffee shops in upscale suburbs?

If someone really wants to prove a point. They should OC where I live (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sobrante%20park).

:p

thedrickel
01-28-2010, 9:36 AM
He went to EPA to piss off Rose Jacobs-Gibson :)

oaklander
01-28-2010, 9:44 AM
Let me address your points, one by one.

Oaklander,

Intimidating Illegals?!? Are you serious? The open carrier was most likely hispanic. I normally only contribute to OCDO, but your comments are so outrageous that I want to go on the record... I will not support this organization in any way shape or form due to the demeaning statements made by Calguns Board members such as yourself. Are you for gun rights or not? Based on your comments, I would think Calguns is more anti-gun than the Brady campaign.

If you had read any of my other 5600 posts, you might have picked up that I do criticize UOC, but that I generally support it, and in fact was going to go to a UOC "protest" in Redwood City last weekend until it got rained out.

However, me being the old curmudgeon that I am, I do like to point out some of the strategic shortfalls of UOC, and I have done so numerous times. Probably too many times, actually.

If you had spent any time on this forum, you might also note that I am actually friends with several noted UOC advocates, whom I have met in person. You might also have noted that I DO tend to jump into most UOC threads, and comment on them. Usually, it's in good fun. Sometimes, I do "jump the shark," which may be the case here. I'm not afraid to admit that.

That being said, the running joke (that you are obviously not aware of) is that I am trying to get people to UOC where I live in Oakland. Again, your lack of participation here means that you are not aware of my love-hate relationship with UOC.

So, point #1 - get your facts straight.

It's a sad day when UOC is more acceptable to the average Bay Area resident than it is to members of a "progun" organization. What a joke. I guess I shouldn't expect much from a bunch of people that sit around criticizing other law abiding citizens for exercising their rights. If you want to stand down and give up your rights, make that decision for yourself and let others make their own decision.

Unless I say otherwise, my opinions are only my own. Since you obviously value the Second Amendment, perhaps you might also want to research the First Amendment as well.

People who know me know that I call it as I see it. I don't pull punches, and I am NOT going to avoid "hot" topics. I would rather have a heated discussion about something controversial than simply sweep it under the rug.

If you don't like my PERSONAL opinions, that's fine. But it takes a HUGE leap in logic to impugn my personal opinions against the organization that I happen to be a member of. Let me say it another way - just because I am a CGF Board Member, it does not mean that I am not entitled to have my own personal opinions. Another way to say this is that I would rather cut off my hand than cut out my tongue.


Point #2 - I will not be muzzled.

I've already heard the collectivist rhetoric that "we're all in this together," but the RKBA is an individual right not a collective one, so it's an individual choice to make.

You are wrong. You are confusing the concept of "rights," and the concept of "stewardship." The Second Amendment is most certainly an individual right. Nobody here on Calguns (forum, board, or otherwise) has claimed anything different.

That being said, it is a right that must be carefully preserved and expanded. Again, my personal opinion is that UOC is not a good idea right now. That does not reflect the official Board position, which is easily findable here. But since you appear to have not spent much time on this forum, you obviously don't know the official position.

Point #3 - you appear to not even understand the interplay between a "right" and the "stewardship" of that right.

Finally, your quip that CGF is more anti-gun than the Brady's is laughable. So funny in fact, that I have chosen it to be a part of my signature.

:p

ETA: if you want to discuss this offline - click on my "Personal Google Voice" link in my sig. and give me a ring. I'm always willing to talk to another pro-gunner. I think after you talk with me, you will see that, while I may have some wacky posts from time to time, and some opinions that don't sit will with some people, that you and I are on the same side after all. . .

Technical Ted
01-28-2010, 9:45 AM
LOL, why is it always supermarkets and coffee shops in upscale suburbs?

If someone really wants to prove a point. They should OC where I live (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sobrante%20park).

:p
Oak,

This shopping center IS NOT in an upscale suburb. It's a shopping center in EAST Palo Alto, a community that only seems to be a part of Palo Alto to people unfamiliar with the region.

East Palo Alto is one of the poorest communities in San Mateo County and has one--if not the highest--crime rates in San Mateo County.

Palo Alto is in Santa Clara county.

Technical Ted
01-28-2010, 9:46 AM
Exactly what he did, carry in a place similar to where you live:) EPA not WPA.
WPA? Over 30 years as a resident and I never heard Palo Alto referred to as West Palo Alto.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 9:49 AM
LOL - *everything* outside of East Oakland is an upscale suburb to me.

:D

Actually I misread the article - I just saw the PA part and not the EPA part. My bad!!!

Oak,

This shopping center IS NOT in an upscale suburb. It's a shopping center in EAST Palo Alto, a community that only seems to be a part of Palo Alto to people unfamiliar with the region.

East Palo Alto is one of the poorest communities in San Mateo County and has one--if not the highest--crime rates in San Mateo County.

Palo Alto is in Santa Clara county.

Technical Ted
01-28-2010, 9:50 AM
Actually, Ravenswood 101 would have made a good candidate for the empty holster event in San Mateo County that Hoffmang was pondering last week.

GSequoia
01-28-2010, 9:51 AM
Oak,

This shopping center IS NOT in an upscale suburb. It's a shopping center in EAST Palo Alto, a community that only seems to be a part of Palo Alto to people unfamiliar with the region.

East Palo Alto is one of the poorest communities in San Mateo County and has one--if not the highest--crime rates in San Mateo County.

Palo Alto is in Santa Clara county.

Ted,

You must understand, to Oaklander everything short of Fallujah is an upscale neighborhood.



[token comment]ANother UOCer doing hard work to score press! :rolleyes: [/token comment]

wildhawker
01-28-2010, 9:56 AM
Dear Troll,

I assume you'll be taking just one cowardly shot at Oaklander before running back to the safety net of OCDO?

Let me know.

-Brandon

Oaklander,

Intimidating Illegals?!? Are you serious? The open carrier was most likely hispanic. I normally only contribute to OCDO, but your comments are so outrageous that I want to go on the record... I will not support this organization in any way shape or form due to the demeaning statements made by Calguns Board members such as yourself. Are you for gun rights or not? Based on your comments, I would think Calguns is more anti-gun than the Brady campaign.

It's a sad day when UOC is more acceptable to the average Bay Area resident than it is to members of a "progun" organization. What a joke. I guess I shouldn't expect much from a bunch of people that sit around criticizing other law abiding citizens for exercising their rights. If you want to stand down and give up your rights, make that decision for yourself and let others make their own decision.

I've already heard the collectivist rhetoric that "we're all in this together," but the RKBA is an individual right not a collective one, so it's an individual choice to make.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 9:57 AM
Must. Resist. Impulse. To. Post. Chart.

:D

pullnshoot25
01-28-2010, 9:57 AM
I OC'd at a Mexican market once...

oaklander
01-28-2010, 9:58 AM
I'll make it even easier for the troll. I'll give out my PERSONAL cell phone number:

415.827.1776.

Call me any time. . .

;)

Dear Troll,

I assume you'll be taking just one cowardly shot at Oaklander before running back to the safety net of OCDO?

Let me know.

-Brandon

gotthelife4u
01-28-2010, 9:59 AM
Onedavetoomany is a poster over at www.opencarry.org. I think that's why he seems to have taken offense to your comments.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 10:00 AM
Racist!

j/k

:p

See, that's the point that I am trying to make the the person who jumped on me in this thread. We joke about things, we even disagree, but we are still on the same side.

I OC'd at a Mexican market once...

wildhawker
01-28-2010, 10:01 AM
Onedavetoomany is a poster over at www.opencarry.org. I think that's why he seems to have taken offense to your comments.

Good for him. I hope he comes back to address Oak's counterpoints. I'd hate for him to reinforce the notion that OCDO fanboi trolls are cowards.

pullnshoot25
01-28-2010, 10:01 AM
Racist!

j/k

:p

See, that's the point that I am trying to make the the person who jumped on me in this thread. We joke about things, we even disagree, but we are still on the same side.

I will admit, the stark contrast of skin color was actually pretty funny.

technique
01-28-2010, 10:03 AM
This thread sucks.

onedavetoomany
01-28-2010, 10:04 AM
For the record, I've UOCd on MacAurthur. Is that ghetto enough for you Oaklander?

oaklander
01-28-2010, 10:05 AM
It's full of WIN!

IBTL, BTW

This thread sucks.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 10:06 AM
Not really.

:p

Now, kindly address the points in my post. Or simply give me a call. Or leave this thread, otherwise, people will get the impression that you are trolling.

For the record, I've UOCd on MacAurthur. Is that ghetto enough for you Oaklander?

Python2
01-28-2010, 10:11 AM
WPA? Over 30 years as a resident and I never heard Palo Alto referred to as West Palo Alto.
OK, how about west of 101:D
Over 30 plus years in San Mateo County and heard that word a few times just to separate the bad and upscale part of Palo Alto.:)

oaklander
01-28-2010, 10:15 AM
I'm going outside for a smoke. I'll take my phone with me in case I get any phone calls while I am out. . .

:gene:

Technical Ted
01-28-2010, 10:18 AM
OK, how about west of 101:D
Over 30 plus years in San Mateo County and heard that word a few times just to separate the bad and upscale part of Palo Alto.:)
Two different cities. East Palo Alto wasn't incorporated until 1984. Until then it was patrolled by the San Mateo County Sheriff and the CHP.

The actual demarcation line is San Francisquito Creek

onedavetoomany
01-28-2010, 10:21 AM
Let me address your points, one by one.



If you had read any of my other 5600 posts, you might have picked up that I do criticize UOC, but that I generally support it, and in fact was going to go to a UOC "protest" in Redwood City last weekend until it got rained out.

However, me being the old curmudgeon that I am, I do like to point out some of the strategic shortfalls of UOC, and I have done so numerous times. Probably too many times, actually.


Congratulations on the 5600 posts. I was responding to the posts that I've seen in which you've made demeaning statements about open carriers. I've read your opinion on the "strategic shortfalls" and I disagree. I have no problem if you don't want to open carry, but I will continue to do so. Fair enough?




If you had spent any time on this forum, you might also note that I am actually friends with several noted UOC advocates, whom I have met in person. You might also have noted that I DO tend to jump into most UOC threads, and comment on them. Usually, it's in good fun. Sometimes, I do "jump the shark," which may be the case here. I'm not afraid to admit that.

That being said, the running joke (that you are obviously not aware of) is that I am trying to get people to UOC where I live in Oakland. Again, your lack of participation here means that you are not aware of my love-hate relationship wit
Unless I say otherwise, my opinions are only my own. Since you obviously value the Second Amendment, perhaps you might also want to research the First Amendment as well.

When did I call for the revocation of your First Amendment rights? Of course you can continue to attack UOCers, but I wanted to go on the record saying I don't appreciate the comments.


People who know me know that I call it as I see it. I don't pull punches, and I am NOT going to avoid "hot" topics. I would rather have a heated discussion about something controversial than simply sweep it under the rug.


I'm the same way. That's exactly why I called you out. Do you have a problem with that?


If you don't like my PERSONAL opinions, that's fine. But it takes a HUGE leap in logic to impugn my personal opinions against the organization that I happen to be a member of. Let me say it another way - just because I am a CGF Board Member, it does not mean that I am not entitled to have my own personal opinions. Another way to say this is that I would rather cut off my hand than cut out my tongue.


Point #2 - I will not be muzzled.



If you are a board member, your comments do to an extent reflect the organization because you are the leadership. I stated that I will not support the organization while board members make these types of comments. If the majority of Calguns members disagree with you, they would not keep you on the board.



You are wrong. You are confusing the concept of "rights," and the concept of "stewardship." The Second Amendment is most certainly an individual right. Nobody here on Calguns (forum, board, or otherwise) has claimed anything different.

That being said, it is a right that must be carefully preserved and expanded. Again, my personal opinion is that UOC is not a good idea right now. That does not reflect the official Board position, which is easily findable here. But since you appear to have not spent much time on this forum, you obviously don't know the official position.

Point #3 - you appear to not even understand the interplay between a "right" and the "stewardship" of that right.



So carrying my firearm in a legal manner is bad stewardship?


Finally, your quip that CGF is more anti-gun than the Brady's is laughable. So funny in fact, that I have chosen it to be a part of my signature.

:p


Read my comment. I said "Based on your comments...." it could be perceived that way. There is a difference.


ETA: if you want to discuss this offline - click on my "Personal Google Voice" link in my sig. and give me a ring. I'm always willing to talk to another pro-gunner. I think after you talk with me, you will see that, while I may have some wacky posts from time to time, and some opinions that don't sit will with some people, that you and I are on the same side after all. . .

I can appreciate that.

Technical Ted
01-28-2010, 10:21 AM
I'll make it even easier for the troll. I'll give out my PERSONAL cell phone number:

415.827.1776.

Call me any time. . .

;)
Now I have the Blondie tune from American Gigolo in my head.

wildhawker
01-28-2010, 10:25 AM
If you are a board member, your comments do to an extent reflect the organization because you are the leadership. I stated that I will not support the organization while board members make these types of comments. If the majority of Calguns members disagree with you, they would not keep you on the board.

Ah, no, actually. All Boards have some diversity (to greater or lesser degrees) which adds creativity and assists in vetting out concepts and ideas to make the product stronger. Like working in an echo chamber? (oh, that's right, you play at OCDO).

So carrying my firearm in a legal manner is bad stewardship?

Prior to Jan 1, 2010? Yes.
After Jan. 1, 2010? Only if you care about those remaining downsides to the leg taking on UOC and banning it entirely (with some other new laws as fallout).

GrizzlyGuy
01-28-2010, 10:37 AM
Now I have the Blondie tune from American Gigolo in my head.

LOL! I love Blondie. Rifle Range (http://www.metrolyrics.com/rifle-range-lyrics-blondie.html) is one of their best songs ever (not just because it's about a rifle range). Check it out some time, it's on their debut album ("Blondie") (http://www.amazon.com/Blondie/dp/B00005MNP5/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1264707228&sr=8-4). There's a ton of good songs on there, well worth the $8.

Anyhoo, back to regularly scheduled post topic...

Kestryll
01-28-2010, 10:41 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone ever really think that by joining a forum to take someone to task over something and be snide in the process is going to do ANYTHING positive?

I'm serious, other than cause yet more drama and strife what is the objective of joining and acting like a troll?

Wouldn't it make more sense to drop the attitude, leave the digs and smart-aleck remarks at the door and and actually converse?
Or is the intent not to discuss but just to stir up drama and go back to where ever you came from and act like the big man?

I've always wondered this.

onedavetoomany
01-28-2010, 11:04 AM
I'll make it even easier for the troll. I'll give out my PERSONAL cell phone number:

415.827.1776.

Call me any time. . .

;)

I spoke with Oaklander and we resolved our differences. I would urge you all to take what I said into account and refrain from attacking UOCers. We should all be on the same side.

ChrisO
01-28-2010, 11:24 AM
I UOC in Stockton! Oakland is a cake walk :p haha East oakland is pretty ghetto my brother lived off of lakeshore ave and we went to "Da East O" and it was a different world but I have lived in stockton my whole life so nothing to shocking :/ .

oaklander
01-28-2010, 11:25 AM
Dave and I had a good phone conversation a few minutes ago. Turns out he lives somewhat near to me, and I've invited him to my next BBQ!

:D

I think I was also able to explain all the good stuff that CGF is doing, and explain that we are a diverse group, with diverse opinions.

That being said, I am aware that my comments regarding UOC sometimes step over the line. I wish to apologize for that.

The bottom line is that we are all fighting the same fight, and it does nobody any good if we start bickering. If I'm the cause of that, I am sorry. It is certainly not my intention to start any kind of rift.

I've also spoken on the phone with one of the UOC leaders in Norcal, and he and I will be meeting informally, and unofficially to discuss points of commonality.

This was a short, but EPIC thread! Nothing to see here anymore, move along!!!

:p

I spoke with Oaklander and we resolved our differences. I would urge you all to take what I said into account and refrain from attacking UOCers. We should all be on the same side.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 11:27 AM
Kes, I totally agree with you. And in Dave's defense, he actually did call me. It says a lot about his character that he would do that.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone ever really think that by joining a forum to take someone to task over something and be snide in the process is going to do ANYTHING positive?

I'm serious, other than cause yet more drama and strife what is the objective of joining and acting like a troll?

Wouldn't it make more sense to drop the attitude, leave the digs and smart-aleck remarks at the door and and actually converse?
Or is the intent not to discuss but just to stir up drama and go back to where ever you came from and act like the big man?

I've always wondered this.

wildhawker
01-28-2010, 11:36 AM
I'd like to join in one of the conversations from a grassroots perspective if there are no objections.

gotgunz
01-28-2010, 11:39 AM
If I call you can I get invited to the next BBQ also? I won't be able to call until shortly after midnight tonight though.

:D

technique
01-28-2010, 11:40 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone ever really think that by joining a forum to take someone to task over something and be snide in the process is going to do ANYTHING positive?

Don't know. But maybe, juuuuussst maybe...you can answer that yourself.
Isn't that why you're a member of OCDO?

You asked...I answered.:)

I have never joined a forum to troll. Nor joined to carry a topic from one forum to the next. So, I really can't say for sure. I have read your posts there, I do know you do not support the OC cause.

Kestryll
01-28-2010, 11:53 AM
Kes, I totally agree with you. And in Dave's defense, he actually did call me. It says a lot about his character that he would do that.

You beat me to it, I was going to reply that THIS is a positive step and outcome!

Sgt Raven
01-28-2010, 11:54 AM
LOL, why is it always supermarkets and coffee shops in upscale suburbs?

If someone really wants to prove a point. They should OC where I live (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sobrante%20park).

:p

:rofl: East Palo Alto an upscale neighborhood? :drool5::smilielol5: I could see someone from SoCal making that mistake, but not someone from the bay area.

Kestryll
01-28-2010, 12:01 PM
Don't know. But maybe, juuuuussst maybe...you can answer that yourself.
Isn't that why you're a member of OCDO?
No, I joined to address questions about CGN specifically and accusations and statements about me personally.


I have read your posts there, I do know you do not support the OC cause.
Incorrect.
I do not personally support the timing nor many of the tactics of OC right now.
When the time is right and there is significantly more good that can come of it than there is detriment I will be OC'ing.
In fact I'm having my Hi-Power refinished and shopping for a nice looking holster specifically for this purpose.

gotgunz
01-28-2010, 12:12 PM
By that time won't we have shall issue ccw?

If so, why would you want to open carry ir you're able to carry concealed?

(general question, not directed towards any specific person)

IrishPirate
01-28-2010, 12:20 PM
This actually seems like a pretty good UOC story compared to some others I've heard. It's rare that you hear of instances where the cops don't arrest the UOCer or cause a big scene.

It's a very fine line to be walking right now. IMHO, i think that it's best when done in groups of smiling happy people because it is less of a chance of it being perceived as a threatening situation by the public. To do it alone really does invite some unwelcome fears by the masses of liberal gunaphobes in our beautiful sunshine state.

Our day will come though as long as we keep up the good fight and remember......YES WE CAN!! :D

oaklander
01-28-2010, 12:31 PM
Excellent. Again, these will be unofficial conversations, but I think that it's a good step forward to open a dialog with our brothers and sisters in arms.


I'd like to join in one of the conversations from a grassroots perspective if there are no objections.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 12:33 PM
LOL - yet another running CGN gag (i.e., Oaklander's hood is the worst in the world).

To me, anywhere outside of DEO (Deep East Oakland) is upscale!

:cool:

:rofl: East Palo Alto an upscale neighborhood? :drool5::smilielol5: I could see someone from SoCal making that mistake, but not someone from the bay area.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 12:35 PM
LOL - Lakeshore is the BURBS!

I'm talking International & 105th, at 1am. . .

:chris:

I UOC in Stockton! Oakland is a cake walk :p haha East oakland is pretty ghetto my brother lived off of lakeshore ave and we went to "Da East O" and it was a different world but I have lived in stockton my whole life so nothing to shocking :/ .

Liberty1
01-28-2010, 12:38 PM
Excellent. Again, these will be unofficial conversations, but I think that it's a good step forward to open a dialog with our brothers and sisters in arms.

Maybe advertise the BBQ at OCDO and expand the reach of the dialoging?

oaklander
01-28-2010, 12:39 PM
At the risk of overposting, I will simply say that it's time for a grouphug!

:grouphug:

Actually, on a more serious note. I've found gun people to be some of the most rational and levelheaded people around. We all agree where we want to go - sometimes we disagree on the way to get there. But we usually work it out in the end. This says a lot about the caliber (pun intended) of people we have in our cause.


You beat me to it, I was going to reply that THIS is a positive step and outcome!

oaklander
01-28-2010, 12:40 PM
That's actually not a bad idea. Heck, I would even offer my house for folks to stay at if they were flying in from Socal (hint, hint). . .

:)

Maybe advertise the BBQ at OCDO and expand the reach of the dialoging?

wildhawker
01-28-2010, 12:44 PM
Maybe advertise the BBQ at OCDO and expand the reach of the dialoging?

I think a few more intimate conversations to set the stage for additional personalities and group mixers is typically the wisest route to effective communication between two very entrenched entities. Without a foundation and working understanding of the positions at a core level (and, hopefully, some genuine relationships) the herds never really dialog; the conversations just revert to defensive posturing and antagonizing debate.

Liberty1
01-28-2010, 12:56 PM
I think a few more intimate conversations to set the stage for additional personalities and group mixers is typically the wisest route to effective communication between two very entrenched entities.

I agree.

Now if we could only get ILA...:chris:

onedavetoomany
01-28-2010, 12:56 PM
Dave and I had a good phone conversation a few minutes ago. Turns out he lives somewhat near to me, and I've invited him to my next BBQ!

:D

I think I was also able to explain all the good stuff that CGF is doing, and explain that we are a diverse group, with diverse opinions.

That being said, I am aware that my comments regarding UOC sometimes step over the line. I wish to apologize for that.

The bottom line is that we are all fighting the same fight, and it does nobody any good if we start bickering. If I'm the cause of that, I am sorry. It is certainly not my intention to start any kind of rift.

I've also spoken on the phone with one of the UOC leaders in Norcal, and he and I will be meeting informally, and unofficially to discuss points of commonality.

This was a short, but EPIC thread! Nothing to see here anymore, move along!!!

:p


It's about time we all started working together :D

Even if we disagree on certain methods, we can work together for the common goal.

Thanks again for the invite Oaklander.

Liberty1
01-28-2010, 12:59 PM
we can work together for the common goal.

Yes, consuming beer and beef!!!! :D

Kestryll
01-28-2010, 1:00 PM
Yes, consuming beer and beef!!!! :D

IN!!!

:D

ChrisO
01-28-2010, 1:02 PM
LOL - Lakeshore is the BURBS!

I'm talking International & 105th, at 1am. . .

:chris:


I know thats why i said it's a whole different world lakeshore compared to the more east side of oakland! It was like night and day! Like I said though the more ghetto parts of oakland were not that crazy to me I live in a really bad part of stockton :/ haha.

xxdabroxx
01-28-2010, 1:10 PM
That's actually not a bad idea. Heck, I would even offer my house for folks to stay at if they were flying in from Socal (hint, hint). . .

:)

Oak, see that quotation mark at the bottom of my post. Yeah the one with the plus sign next to it. Ok, good. Click that. Now click the next post you want to quote. Then on the last one you want to quote click the regular quote button.

There, that will keep your post count a little lower when responding to multiple people. :cool:

SKSer
01-28-2010, 1:15 PM
Ive made it a personal mission of mine to argue and defend 2a with the anti-gunnies on these news releases, not for the people I am arguing with, but for the "on the fence" people that read the comments, so they dont just see a bunch of biased "guns are evil" comments.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 1:21 PM
LOL, so what you are saying is that you don't want to come to my BBQ?

:p

Oak, see that quotation mark at the bottom of my post. Yeah the one with the plus sign next to it. Ok, good. Click that. Now click the next post you want to quote. Then on the last one you want to quote click the regular quote button.

There, that will keep your post count a little lower when responding to multiple people. :cool:

pullnshoot25
01-28-2010, 1:25 PM
LOL, so what you are saying is that you don't want to come to my BBQ?

:p

I so have a joke for this...

How about a discussion at Lytle Creek in March? If I don't have finals that day, I may be able to make it. I am trying to get Twitchalot and Macadelic4 to go with me if we can make it...

xxdabroxx
01-28-2010, 1:36 PM
LOL, so what you are saying is that you don't want to come to my BBQ?

:p

Only if you move out of teh ghetto. LOL :p

Or if you have a taxi service that makes trips from the central valley. Oakland is a bit far to drive for a BBQ. I may be in the area for reggae festival this year though!

For the record, i just used that post to get your attention.

wildhawker
01-28-2010, 1:36 PM
I so have a joke for this...

How about a discussion at Lytle Creek in March? If I don't have finals that day, I may be able to make it. I am trying to get Twitchalot and Macadelic4 to go with me if we can make it...

I can't speak for Oak but unfortunately I'll be out of state most of Feb and some of March. I think I'll be at the mid-spring SnQ event.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 5:14 PM
I'm serious about this because (1) I think it will be a lot of fun, and (2) it will be good to look for points of commonality among the various 2A movements in the state. Any division at all does not serve us well, and again my apologies if I have contributed to any of that division - it was not my intent.

:)

That being said, I am going to reach out to the other board members and try to get their buy-in on this as well. Again, this would be an unofficial event, and any conversations at this "BBQ Summit" would be completely off the record.

Anothercoilgun
01-28-2010, 8:22 PM
I see many post here, too many to read. But the main point is this. Why would the store manager ask anyone in a grocery store to leave. The second you step foot in the store your are already on you way out. He was bound to leave anyway.

wildhawker
01-28-2010, 10:32 PM
I see many post here, too many to read. But the main point is this. Why would the store manager ask anyone in a grocery store to leave. The second you step foot in the store your are already on you way out. He was bound to leave anyway.

Irrational fear of the law-abiding.

oaklander
01-28-2010, 11:34 PM
OK, this First Annual UOC BBQ SUMMIT is a GO!!!

:D

I will post details in a few days when I get a sense of everyone's schedule. . .

corrupt
01-29-2010, 1:48 AM
Good on you Oaklander. I think you and I may have the same opinions on UOC, but I don't think I'd have been as diplomatic as talking to a stranger about it, so that's pretty cool. In fact I've brought up UOC'ing in Oakland just as you have in previous posts, haha.

Mulay El Raisuli
01-29-2010, 5:29 AM
By that time won't we have shall issue ccw?

If so, why would you want to open carry ir you're able to carry concealed?

(general question, not directed towards any specific person)


It would depend on the type of OC that you mean. UOC is for political reasons. A PRK-only phenomenon intended to address PRK-only issues pre-Incorporation & the the full restoration of the Right.

As for LOC, I personally would favor that over CCW because (practical reason) if the nearest bad guy can see that I'm armed, he's just not going to bother me.

The philosophical reason is that I just hate the idea of getting a "mother may I" slip to exercise a Constitutional Right.

The political reason (after the Right is fully restored) is that open carry spreads the word & promotes the return of the "gun culture" better than does CCW.


The Raisuli

tenpercentfirearms
01-29-2010, 5:36 AM
The one time I went to Oaklander's house, I LCCed the whole time and still felt unprepared. Next time I am bringing my briefcase AR.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=256138822145&ref=mf

oaklander
01-29-2010, 7:39 AM
LOL - as much as I like to "stir the pot," I really don't like conflict! Especially among people on the same team.

:)

Good on you Oaklander. I think you and I may have the same opinions on UOC, but I don't think I'd have been as diplomatic as talking to a stranger about it, so that's pretty cool. In fact I've brought up UOC'ing in Oakland just as you have in previous posts, haha.

GrizzlyGuy
01-29-2010, 5:27 PM
LOL, why is it always supermarkets and coffee shops in upscale suburbs?

If someone really wants to prove a point. They should OC where I live (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sobrante%20park).

:p

LOL! Check out some of the comments from antis on today's UOC article in SF Chronicle/SFGate (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/scavenger/detail?entry_id=56281), they're saying the same thing:

Open carry people, why don't you open carry in Oakland and Richmond? Oh wait, you can't have open carry a loaded gun...HAHHAHAHAHHA
-------
Why don't the people who support OPEN CARRY, do this in Oakland or the City of Richmond Iron Triangle?

I can hear the gun firing within 2 mintues...

OPEN CARRY, have some guts and do the right thing (be a man)... Show Oakland & the City of Richmond... hahahaha
------------
The first house I bought was in East Oakland, and no it wasn't a great part of town.

However, I lived there alone in my house for 4 years, never had a problem, and didn't own a gun. I even went running in the evenings sometimes.

I would invite any of these open carry people to go to that neighborhood and walk just 2 blocks with their piece hanging out. They would probably pee in their shorts before making it 10 feet away from their car.
--------
Pick a random East Oakland restaurant and give it a try. If you need to carry for your own "protection", then East Oakland would be THE place that you need to protect yourself. I wonder how that would go... Somehow I picture the guy with the gun holding his hands in the air in less than 5 minutes while someone else removes the gun from his holster.
------
100 bucks says there will be no OC guys within 10 miles of downtown Oakland when the Mehserle verdict comes in.
----------
Livermore and San Ramon? Come on, fellas. Take your meetings to Oakland, where there might actually be a gunfight. Why upset the bean counters and code crunchers living in San Ramon?

The article was posted at 10:41 AM today, and there are already 884 comments. :eek:

gotgunz
01-29-2010, 8:05 PM
UOC is for political reasons.

Finally! Somebody with an honest answer rather than the total b.s "self protection" (with an unloaded gun mind you) mantra they always profess. Thank you.


As for LOC, I personally would favor that over CCW because (practical reason) if the nearest bad guy can see that I'm armed, he's just not going to bother me.

.....or will purposely notice you because of the gun and realize that you are unloaded and he has no more than 2 seconds to do something before you are able to get it loaded (:rolleyes:). CCW would perhaps allow you to "fly under the radar" not drawing any attention to yourself and he may not even notice you exist.


The philosophical reason is that I just hate the idea of getting a "mother may I" slip to exercise a Constitutional Right.

This is subject to interpretation but nobody has shown me where it says you have a constitutional right to carry concealed. Much like I have yet to see where I have a "right" to get married, as an example.


The political reason (after the Right is fully restored) is that open carry spreads the word & promotes the return of the "gun culture" better than does CCW.

I think it is safe to say that the "gun culture" of California and its acceptance are long gone. We may indeed see a relaxing of the laws (through court actions) but I'm sorry; there are too many damn granola consumers in this state to ever allow it to return to where it was 20, 30 or ??? years ago.

Thank you for the honest and well written response.

dantodd
01-30-2010, 2:23 AM
As for LOC, I personally would favor that over CCW because (practical reason) if the nearest bad guy can see that I'm armed, he's just not going to bother me.
.....or will purposely notice you because of the gun and realize that you are unloaded and he has no more than 2 seconds to do something before you are able to get it loaded (:rolleyes:). CCW would perhaps allow you to "fly under the radar" not drawing any attention to yourself and he may not even notice you exist.

Your response might make more sense if you read what Mulay posted.


The philosophical reason is that I just hate the idea of getting a "mother may I" slip to exercise a Constitutional Right.
This is subject to interpretation but nobody has shown me where it says you have a constitutional right to carry concealed. Much like I have yet to see where I have a "right" to get married, as an example.

Which part of "Keep and Bear" is difficult for you to understand? It is the considered opinion of "the right people" that SCOTUS will recognize bear to be either LOC or CCW or both but not neither. I believe the way Scalia put it in Heller was that the government has the right to regulate the MANNER of carry but not prohibit it outright. Mulay said that he philosophically prefers OC because he doesn't want to have to apply for a permit. While it is possible that we will get both OC and shall issue CCW it is in no way assured but we WILL get our right to one or the other recognized.

Mulay El Raisuli
01-30-2010, 3:49 AM
Finally! Somebody with an honest answer rather than the total b.s "self protection" (with an unloaded gun mind you) mantra they always profess. Thank you.


You're welcome. But, please do remember that I speak only for me.


.....or will purposely notice you because of the gun and realize that you are unloaded and he has no more than 2 seconds to do something before you are able to get it loaded (:rolleyes:). CCW would perhaps allow you to "fly under the radar" not drawing any attention to yourself and he may not even notice you exist.


You're off a bit here. I was talking about (and said) LOC (and that only after the Right is fully restored), not UOC. Which changes things quite a bit for the bad guy. Also, just hoping that a bad guy doesn't notice me isn't a real good strategy. The whole idea is that I'm able to respond in case he does.


This is subject to interpretation but nobody has shown me where it says you have a constitutional right to carry concealed. Much like I have yet to see where I have a "right" to get married, as an example.


And since that is the case, that's why I favor LOC. Because there is a Constitutional Right for that.


I think it is safe to say that the "gun culture" of California and its acceptance are long gone. We may indeed see a relaxing of the laws (through court actions) but I'm sorry; there are too many damn granola consumers in this state to ever allow it to return to where it was 20, 30 or ??? years ago.


I'm not that pessimistic. My experiences during the UOC events tells me that Walter & Winnifred Whitebread are closer to us than you think.


Thank you for the honest and well written response.


You're welcome.


The Raisuli

BigAL
01-30-2010, 7:03 AM
I don't come to this part of the forum much as I moved out of CA some years ago, but I like to read SFGate to keep up on things (family still lives on the Peninsula) and I saw the Peet's coffee and CPK article on this. As soon as I read the article, I thought "I bet there's something on Calguns about this".

I CCW where I live as it's shall issue here. Clearly carrying an unloaded gun in the open isn't doing much for protection, but it's making a point and clearly getting noticed. So I say good job!

gotgunz
01-30-2010, 1:15 PM
Your response might make more sense if you read what Mulay posted.

Actually it wouldn't because I missed the LOC part; I guess I am too used to seeing UOC crap all the time and missed that one.



Which part of "Keep and Bear" is difficult for you to understand? It is the considered opinion of "the right people" that SCOTUS will recognize bear to be either LOC or CCW or both but not neither. I believe the way Scalia put it in Heller was that the government has the right to regulate the MANNER of carry but not prohibit it outright. Mulay said that he philosophically prefers OC because he doesn't want to have to apply for a permit. While it is possible that we will get both OC and shall issue CCW it is in no way assured but we WILL get our right to one or the other recognized.

I understand keep and bear quite well thank you. And while I understand that the "right people" have it on strong opinion as to what will happen they are not SCOTUS, so what they think at this point... meaning as I sit here and type.... is not important because it is not the law of the land (so to speak). And I just don't see the wording of the 2nd to mean the "right" to carry concealed, which means that given the era that this was written I tend to view "Keep & Bear" as to mean open carry loaded....

You're welcome. But, please do remember that I speak only for me.

I got that part.


You're off a bit here. I was talking about (and said) LOC (and that only after the Right is fully restored), not UOC. Which changes things quite a bit for the bad guy. Also, just hoping that a bad guy doesn't notice me isn't a real good strategy. The whole idea is that I'm able to respond in case he does.

And since that is the case, that's why I favor LOC. Because there is a Constitutional Right for that.

See above, I missed the LOC part.


I'm not that pessimistic. My experiences during the UOC events tells me that Walter & Winnifred Whitebread are closer to us than you think.

I don't know which Walter and Winnifred you met but the ones I know are still huddled in an defensless heard shaking like a Ewe trying to pass a razor blade.

I call it cautiously optomistic.

I'm still impressed that somebody had the balls to admit that UOC is a political statement rather than the self defense b.s. we keep seeing.

pullnshoot25
01-30-2010, 5:06 PM
I'm still impressed that somebody had the balls to admit that UOC is a political statement rather than the self defense b.s. we keep seeing.

I've been saying that for a while, just FYI...

Mulay El Raisuli
01-31-2010, 4:11 AM
Actually it wouldn't because I missed the LOC part; I guess I am too used to seeing UOC crap all the time and missed that one.


Well, we all get ahead of ourselves, read too fast & stuff like that. No worries.


I don't know which Walter and Winnifred you met but the ones I know are still huddled in an defensless heard shaking like a Ewe trying to pass a razor blade.

I call it cautiously optomistic.


The UOC events I attend are down San Diego way. That's likely a different crowd than up 'Frisco way. Also, I only UOC at events, never individually. I'm guessing that the presence of cameras & the like changes the perception.


I'm still impressed that somebody had the balls to admit that UOC is a political statement rather than the self defense b.s. we keep seeing.


There's a lot of postings here. No one can keep up with them all. That's likely the reason you missed PnS25's frequent comments (and mine) as to why he & I do this. No worries here, either.


The Raisuli