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M198
01-28-2010, 1:38 AM
I did a quick search and didn't see anything so hopefully it's not a a dupe.

Video here. (http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/Old_City_Shooting_01_17_10) Readers digest version goes like this. Ung bumps into some DiDonato on the street and Ung and DiDonato's group exchange words as Ung walks away. DiDonato's group (3-4 guys) follows Ung's group (another guy and a girl) for a block and a half. One of DiDonato's group shoves Ung. Ung pulls his CCW and points it at the person that pushed him while continuing to back up. DiDonato continues to walk towards the Ung and eventually attacks Ung. Ung and DiDonato fall backwards out of frame but not before DiDonato is shot 6 times. Ung stayed at the scene (DiDonato's group fled), called police, and surrendered. Ung has a valid concealed permit in VA. Ung is arrested for attempted murder. Is this a good shoot? Is a handful of frat boys looking to pick a fight good enough reason to use deadly force?

Fox 29 security cameras caught the violence on videotape around 2:30 a.m. Sunday, when Gerald Ung first bump into Eddie DiDonato and his friends. Next, DiDonato and his friends appear to follow Ung. That's when you see Ung pull out a gun and point the weapon.

Then, the video shows DiDonato – who is unarmed – lunge toward Ung.

Police say Ung fired five times, critically wounding DiDonato.

"The law of justification of self defense where deadly force is used is very exacting," said criminal defense attorney Brian McMonagle, who is not representing any of the parties in this case.

McMonagle said Pennsylvania law is clear on when deadly force can be used. He thinks that Ung, who has been charged with attempted murder, will have a tough time proving he was justified in firing his gun.

"The only way you can respond with deadly force in Pennsylvania is if you reasonably believe that deadly force is being used on you," McMonagle said.

McMonagle added that things are different if a person is inside his or her home and someone broke in. But shooting an unarmed man on a public street, he said, creates a difficult case for self defense.

"The obligation is is that you have to believe that you're going to be placed in jeopardy of either life-threatening injury or death by your assailant, whether it's in your house or on the street. The difference is in your house you don't have to retreat safely – you can fire. On the street, you have to see if you can retreat safely before you use deadly force," McMonagle said.

CalNRA
01-28-2010, 1:53 AM
One can cause significant bodily injuries by punching someone else.

This happened in Philadelphia. The DA are probably fighting over the chance to prosecute a CCW holder.

On surveillance video taken by Fox 29, one man was rushed by another group and then he pulls a gun.

The man who is the shooting victim moves toward the man with the gun, who shoots several times.

When the video is slowed down, the shooting victim can be seen delivering punches even as the gun is discharging.



sounds like he feared for his life.

SirMooAlot
01-28-2010, 2:56 AM
Criminally he should be alright. Ung can always claim he fear that he was going to sustain great bodily injury from the punching or being disarmed as DiDonta lunged toward him and his gun.

Civilly....I hope he's got enough money to make that payout...

That's the thing with use of force situations, civil tort will get you if criminal charges don't

1JimMarch
01-28-2010, 3:00 AM
There was more than one guy coming at him. Looks clean to me.

taloft
01-28-2010, 5:27 AM
From the video, it looks clean. Of course, what we don't see is what led up to the confrontation. It looks like a drunken group of idiots looking for an excuse to stomp someone and they chose the wrong someone.

Mulay El Raisuli
01-28-2010, 7:14 AM
There was more than one guy coming at him. Looks clean to me.


In addition, they kept coming even after the gun was drawn. That shows a lot of intent to cause harm. That the shooter kept backing away shows that he was doing all that he could to avoid violence.

If PA law says that this is a bad shooting, then PA law needs to be changed. OTOH, the law isn't what the DA says it is. The law is what "twelve good men & true" say that it is.


The Raisuli

Lancear15
01-28-2010, 7:36 AM
Justified in my book. But, it will cost him dearly either way.

Glock22Fan
01-28-2010, 7:58 AM
I hope he didn't say anything stupid to the cops.

Might also be affected by the relative sizes of Ung and the guy he shot. If the jury feel that Ung could have countered a few punches, then he might have a harder job establishing that he was in fear for his life.

There's also an object lesson here. If you pull a weapon hoping that the other (unarmed in this case) guy will back off, you really have no options left but to shoot if he doesn't.

1911su16b870
01-28-2010, 9:53 AM
There was more than one guy coming at him. Looks clean to me.

All depends on if his legal council can forcefully and convincingly argue that for him.

Great lesson here, yes you survive the physical attack, and now comes the criminal and civil litigations.

Eargasm
01-28-2010, 10:23 AM
I hope he didn't say anything stupid to the cops.


The article says he's a law student, so hopefully he pays attention in class.

It also says he 'bumped' into DiDonato...so if it comes out that he was the instigator, then pulled a gun, I'm guessing that it doesn't count as a clean shot.

ZapThyCat
01-28-2010, 11:39 AM
I think the DA doesn't have a leg to stand on here...

Untamed1972
01-28-2010, 12:50 PM
being chased by multiple assailants that are not afraid to attack at the sight of a gun being pointed at them would at a minimum cause me to be in fear of great bodily injury. Seems like a good shoot to me.

Perhaps the only question the shooter needs to be able to answer convincingly is "Was he in fear for his life at the time he pulled the gun?"

MasterYong
01-28-2010, 12:52 PM
I have a good friend that has been training in the same martial arts style for about 15 years. He's the only person I've ever met that says "I'm a black belt" and it's actually true. I've personally seen him split a 4x4 in half with his fist (the 4x4 was sunk in the ground vertically in concrete, and was used to train his students to harden their knuckles. He hit it in a fit of rage).

I absolutely guarantee that he, and others, could kill someone with one punch. The punch might not even have to be to the head!

If someone, especially part of a group, lunges at me as if to hurt me in any way you can bet I'll be in fear of my life. Plenty of people in this world have died by another's bare hands.

M198
01-28-2010, 1:14 PM
Here is the pic of the guido frat boy who rushed a man pointing a gun at him, as was shot 5 times for his troubles. Sounds like a case of thinning out the herd to me.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs176.snc3/20350_108218222522434_100000027704119_215716_43556 15_n.jpg

MasterYong
01-28-2010, 1:50 PM
Here is the pic of the guido frat boy who rushed a man pointing a gun at him, as was shot 5 times for his troubles. Sounds like a case of thinning out the herd to me.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs176.snc3/20350_108218222522434_100000027704119_215716_43556 15_n.jpg

Jeebus! The pic alone puts me in fear of my life!!!

:D

bigcalidave
01-28-2010, 2:00 PM
It doesn't matter if you are a black belt or an idiot, someone can get killed by just one punch. We had a guy die in a nightclub up here last year, one punch to the side of the head put him into a coma and he died a few days later. Our moron DA decided that he wasn't going to press charges, hopefully when he gets replaced this year the new DA will revisit the case.

If he needs help in his defense, send him a link to this article and video.
http://www.redding.com/news/2009/jul/15/da-wont-prosecute-man-who-threw-fatal-punch/

Video is on that page.

If you bump into someone you aren't using deadly force. If they punch you, or are about to punch you, they CERTAINLY are... Good shoot. One lucky punch puts you into a coma, use of deadly force is fine.

bigcalidave
01-28-2010, 2:03 PM
I hate how the news station calls the guy who got shot the victim... idiots.

pullnshoot25
01-28-2010, 2:14 PM
Good shoot.

MasterYong
01-28-2010, 2:30 PM
It doesn't matter if you are a black belt or an idiot, someone can get killed by just one punch. We had a guy die in a nightclub up here last year, one punch to the side of the head put him into a coma and he died a few days later. Our moron DA decided that he wasn't going to press charges, hopefully when he gets replaced this year the new DA will revisit the case.

If he needs help in his defense, send him a link to this article and video.
http://www.redding.com/news/2009/jul/15/da-wont-prosecute-man-who-threw-fatal-punch/

Video is on that page.

If you bump into someone you aren't using deadly force. If they punch you, or are about to punch you, they CERTAINLY are... Good shoot. One lucky punch puts you into a coma, use of deadly force is fine.

I wasn't really saying anyone had to be a black belt, I'm just saying that you never know who it is that's hitting you. This guy I'm referencing could most likely crush a skull with little effort. Certainly there are much lesser head injuries that can kill you.

inbox485
01-28-2010, 3:00 PM
It doesn't matter if you are a black belt or an idiot, someone can get killed by just one punch. We had a guy die in a nightclub up here last year, one punch to the side of the head put him into a coma and he died a few days later. Our moron DA decided that he wasn't going to press charges, hopefully when he gets replaced this year the new DA will revisit the case.

If he needs help in his defense, send him a link to this article and video.
http://www.redding.com/news/2009/jul/15/da-wont-prosecute-man-who-threw-fatal-punch/

Video is on that page.

If you bump into someone you aren't using deadly force. If they punch you, or are about to punch you, they CERTAINLY are... Good shoot. One lucky punch puts you into a coma, use of deadly force is fine.

The defendant may have had a valid PC 195 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/195.html) defense. If that were the case the DA may have been wise to drop the matter instead of dragging an example of "if you can hit hard enough to kill with one shot you can get away with it" through the media.

Anothercoilgun
01-28-2010, 8:29 PM
Five shots and the victim is alert. I'd say it was horrible aim.

Glock22Fan
01-28-2010, 9:02 PM
Five shots and the victim is alert. I'd say it was horrible aim.

<flamesuit on>

Probably 9mm! :D

Whiskey84
01-28-2010, 9:22 PM
Good shoot. Fired while backing away (ie retreating) and being attacked.

Also, does it trouble anyone that he's likely to lose whatever he has earned in a civil trial for defending his life? The fact that we've (society) accepted that fact in the aftermath of a clean shoot concerns me...

inbox485
01-28-2010, 9:33 PM
A dirtbag tried to kill him. But it will be The People that eat him alive.

Meplat
01-28-2010, 11:20 PM
Two points.

One this is why I will never draw until I have reason to shoot. notice that the assailant advanced in the face of a drawn weapon.

Two, you have a duty to retreat? You have a duty to retreat on a public street and leave your wife girlfriend or daughter to the tender mercies of the aggressor? F you and your little dog too. This is why you need to pay attention to who and what your DA is.

I did a quick search and didn't see anything so hopefully it's not a a dupe.

Video here. (http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/Old_City_Shooting_01_17_10) Readers digest version goes like this. Ung bumps into some DiDonato on the street and Ung and DiDonato's group exchange words as Ung walks away. DiDonato's group (3-4 guys) follows Ung's group (another guy and a girl) for a block and a half. One of DiDonato's group shoves Ung. Ung pulls his CCW and points it at the person that pushed him while continuing to back up. DiDonato continues to walk towards the Ung and eventually attacks Ung. Ung and DiDonato fall backwards out of frame but not before DiDonato is shot 6 times. Ung stayed at the scene (DiDonato's group fled), called police, and surrendered. Ung has a valid concealed permit in VA. Ung is arrested for attempted murder. Is this a good shoot? Is a handful of frat boys looking to pick a fight good enough reason to use deadly force?

Fox 29 security cameras caught the violence on videotape around 2:30 a.m. Sunday, when Gerald Ung first bump into Eddie DiDonato and his friends. Next, DiDonato and his friends appear to follow Ung. That's when you see Ung pull out a gun and point the weapon.

Then, the video shows DiDonato – who is unarmed – lunge toward Ung.

Police say Ung fired five times, critically wounding DiDonato.

"The law of justification of self defense where deadly force is used is very exacting," said criminal defense attorney Brian McMonagle, who is not representing any of the parties in this case.

McMonagle said Pennsylvania law is clear on when deadly force can be used. He thinks that Ung, who has been charged with attempted murder, will have a tough time proving he was justified in firing his gun.

"The only way you can respond with deadly force in Pennsylvania is if you reasonably believe that deadly force is being used on you," McMonagle said.

McMonagle added that things are different if a person is inside his or her home and someone broke in. But shooting an unarmed man on a public street, he said, creates a difficult case for self defense.

"The obligation is is that you have to believe that you're going to be placed in jeopardy of either life-threatening injury or death by your assailant, whether it's in your house or on the street. The difference is in your house you don't have to retreat safely – you can fire. On the street, you have to see if you can retreat safely before you use deadly force," McMonagle said.

cbn620
01-29-2010, 12:26 AM
Looks mostly clean to me. I'm sure it could be cleaner, and I don't like the idea of the gun being shot as he goes to the ground, but geez. Just look at that scuffle. I'd say you've got plenty of reason to be in fear for your life. A gang of guys is closing in on you and have been following you menacingly. One begins to close on them even before the gun was drawn. At that point it's more than one punch--even though one punch can kill you, there are several other guys there ready to stomp him into the pavement.

If it were my decision I'd tell the "shooting victim" to be lucky he walked away with his life. Maybe you shouldn't walk around with a posse, picking fights with people like a tough guy.

CABilly
01-29-2010, 12:42 AM
Absolutely seems like a good shoot. He was outnumbered and being rushed by a bunch of meatheads while trying to get away. They were the aggressors. The video is a bit infuriating with it's terminology since it's clear that if he didn't have a gun, Ung would have been the victim (which I guess is A-OK with the Philly news media, DA and PD) of a beatdown.

It's been said before. One punch can kill. It doesn't even have to be a punch, people have died from being hit/shoved and hitting their heads.

I do think that he waited too long to draw, or he could have made a better attempt at putting some distance between himself and the gang. Either way, that roided punk is lucky to be alive.

HCz
01-29-2010, 1:18 AM
From the given information, yes.

There was a similar incident like this in Temecula. Victim was hit in the back by a chair, and he was an off duty police officer.

Mulay El Raisuli
01-30-2010, 6:39 AM
Looks mostly clean to me. I'm sure it could be cleaner, and I don't like the idea of the gun being shot as he goes to the ground, but geez. Just look at that scuffle. I'd say you've got plenty of reason to be in fear for your life. A gang of guys is closing in on you and have been following you menacingly. One begins to close on them even before the gun was drawn. At that point it's more than one punch--even though one punch can kill you, there are several other guys there ready to stomp him into the pavement.


And this what makes it completely justifiable in my mind. Have we not seen cases where a guy on the ground has been pounded on by a group & die? Or be put in a coma? Isn't that enough? Shouldn't that be enough?


The Raisuli

Davidwhitewolf
02-03-2010, 3:07 PM
When I was a law student more than a decade ago, one of the first things we learned was that most states east of the Mississippi had a duty to retreat -- even in your home in some cases -- before you were allowed to use deadly force in self-defense. West of the Mississippi (including California) that generally wasn't the case.

The march of "Castle Doctrine" laws in the ensuing decade has removed that "duty to retreat" from most states' laws IIRC -- but evidently Pennsylvania wasn't one of them.

SixPointEight
02-03-2010, 3:31 PM
In addition, they kept coming even after the gun was drawn. That shows a lot of intent to cause harm. That the shooter kept backing away shows that he was doing all that he could to avoid violence.

+1 to this, I would have done the same thing.

Police sources tell Fox 29 that Ung has a firearms permit issued to him from Virginia.

He is charged with attempted homicide, aggravated assault and related offenses.

BS! Aggravated Assault? He was BEING assaulted, and drew a weapon while continuing to back away. Without audio we can only assume he wasn't chanting, "Come get some" as he was backing up.


Someone mentioned a 9mm, a further story says it was a .38.

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/012010_Family_Of_Eddie_DiDonato_Speaks_Out_After_S hooting
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/old-city-shooting-suspect-posts-bail

inbox485
02-03-2010, 3:49 PM
When I was a law student more than a decade ago, one of the first things we learned was that most states east of the Mississippi had a duty to retreat -- even in your home in some cases -- before you were allowed to use deadly force in self-defense. West of the Mississippi (including California) that generally wasn't the case.

The march of "Castle Doctrine" laws in the ensuing decade has removed that "duty to retreat" from most states' laws IIRC -- but evidently Pennsylvania wasn't one of them.

Even the duty to retreat clauses only apply if it is safe to do so. If it were safe to do so, I would choose to retreat even in my own home. I just accept that it often is not safe to retreat in one's own home. In the video, it did not appear to be safe to retreat. The shooter appeared to be back peddling as he shoot, so the argument could easily be made that he was retreating until retreat was no longer possible before shooting.

SixPointEight
02-03-2010, 3:53 PM
I agree, he retreated until the guy threw a punch at arm's length from him. At that point, I'd say he was in real danger. I love how the story keeps changing though. The first video they mention that DiDanato is still throwing punches as he's being shot.

Then the family says DiDanato is a hero and was protecting his friends, and all the sudden the anchor is saying DiDanato was stepping between his friends and the gun and the other guy shot him anyways...Gotta love news. I want to see what happens here.

inbox485
02-03-2010, 3:55 PM
+1 to this, I would have done the same thing.



BS! Aggravated Assault? He was BEING assaulted, and drew a weapon while continuing to back away. Without audio we can only assume he wasn't chanting, "Come get some" as he was backing up.


Someone mentioned a 9mm, a further story says it was a .38.

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/012010_Family_Of_Eddie_DiDonato_Speaks_Out_After_S hooting
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/old-city-shooting-suspect-posts-bail

I don't know that states laws, but some states have homicide laws requiring the DA to bring charges for certain violent crimes so that a jury can decide if the case has merit. They were originally intended so that somebody connected to a corrupt DA couldn't get the DA to look the other way when they kill somebody, but the modern result is that people that kill in self defense get crucified with legal fees to the point that the medical bills from the injuries they would otherwise suffer may have been less (assuming they live).

kermit315
02-03-2010, 4:03 PM
is PA one of the states that says that if the shooting is "good" that you cant be gone after civilly?

pitchbaby
02-03-2010, 5:18 PM
I wonder if the shooter had previous issues with this group of people, perhaps at a bar or further up the sidewalk.

In either case, I can only speak for if it were me in that situation. Just based on what I can see in the video, I think I would have tried to apprehend the attacker without pulling out a weapon so quickly.

Having said that, was the attacker armed with a knife we couldn't see? Was he harassing the shooter previously? Did the shooter know his attacker and know that he intended to do him harm and also know he could not fend him off by hand?

Was the shoot clean? It looks to be... was it necessary... I'm not so sure about that... without knowing more details... it looks like he may have drawn to soon. Does the shooter deserve a jail sentence.... seems a bit harsh, even if he was twitchy on the trigger, the attacker was still attacking him and self defense is still self defense.

WokMaster1
02-03-2010, 7:02 PM
I think an experiment should be done here. A similar sized & weight male as the the guy who got shot should punch the DA in the head a couple of times. If the DA is still standing & totally coherent, then the DA has a case....;)

If not, his state/county/city provided health insurance can take care of his medical & dental bills.

pitchbaby
02-03-2010, 7:18 PM
I think an experiment should be done here. A similar sized & weight male as the the guy who got shot should punch the DA in the head a couple of times. If the DA is still standing & totally coherent, then the DA has a case....;)

If not, his state/county/city provided health insurance can take care of his medical & dental bills.

We were all thinkin' it.... you just had the guts to say it... LOL!!!

Fyathyrio
02-03-2010, 7:42 PM
Gee, any chance the grand jury will tell the DA to stuff it up his arse?

Meplat
02-03-2010, 8:48 PM
Very true! Even the average person, with a little knowledge of where and how to strike can kill with one punch. Am I supposed to gamble on this?

I have a good friend that has been training in the same martial arts style for about 15 years. He's the only person I've ever met that says "I'm a black belt" and it's actually true. I've personally seen him split a 4x4 in half with his fist (the 4x4 was sunk in the ground vertically in concrete, and was used to train his students to harden their knuckles. He hit it in a fit of rage).

I absolutely guarantee that he, and others, could kill someone with one punch. The punch might not even have to be to the head!

If someone, especially part of a group, lunges at me as if to hurt me in any way you can bet I'll be in fear of my life. Plenty of people in this world have died by another's bare hands.

Meplat
02-03-2010, 9:00 PM
I decided after I got out of high school that fighting was not kids stuff any more. When grown men fight someone can easily get killed, regardless of training, I will no longer fight unless I have to, and if I have to, it's for real, to death or incapacitation.

It doesn't matter if you are a black belt or an idiot, someone can get killed by just one punch. We had a guy die in a nightclub up here last year, one punch to the side of the head put him into a coma and he died a few days later. Our moron DA decided that he wasn't going to press charges, hopefully when he gets replaced this year the new DA will revisit the case.

If he needs help in his defense, send him a link to this article and video.
http://www.redding.com/news/2009/jul/15/da-wont-prosecute-man-who-threw-fatal-punch/

Video is on that page.

If you bump into someone you aren't using deadly force. If they punch you, or are about to punch you, they CERTAINLY are... Good shoot. One lucky punch puts you into a coma, use of deadly force is fine.

Doheny
02-03-2010, 9:08 PM
Well, it appears that the "victim" was the former captain of the Villa Nova lacrosse team. This article (http://www.laxpower.com/laxnews/news.php?story=16824)makes him sound like he was an upstanding guy.

From another article (http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20100121_Nova_grad_reportedly_stepped_in_front_of_ gun_to_save_friends_in_Old_City_shooting.html):

"One of them was pushed, something ensued and Eddie got shot," Rubel said, noting that the family had been told that DiDonato stepped in front of the gun and saved the lives of his two friends.
His family considers him a hero, Rubel said.

Meplat
02-03-2010, 9:16 PM
.38 is better than 9mm. Show me a 9mm that will feed an inverted dead soft HBWC?:p

+1 to this, I would have done the same thing.



BS! Aggravated Assault? He was BEING assaulted, and drew a weapon while continuing to back away. Without audio we can only assume he wasn't chanting, "Come get some" as he was backing up.


Someone mentioned a 9mm, a further story says it was a .38.

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/012010_Family_Of_Eddie_DiDonato_Speaks_Out_After_S hooting
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/old-city-shooting-suspect-posts-bail

Meplat
02-03-2010, 9:34 PM
[QUOTE=Doheny;3750578]makes him sound like he was an upstanding guy.
[QUOTE]

That can mean many things.

Mulay El Raisuli
02-04-2010, 4:55 AM
Gee, any chance the grand jury will tell the DA to stuff it up his arse?


Yes, I think so. Which is the value of the grand jury system. It won't be a matter of just what some glory hound DA wants anymore.

Just another benefit of McDonald (if we actually get P/I Incorporation).


The Raisuli

theungfund
02-07-2010, 6:55 PM
Gerald Ung's friends have started a non-profit corporation, The Gerald Ung Legal Defense Fund, Inc for his defense at www.theungfund.org. You can also view our event page or leave a comment or your opinion. Thanks.

JSilvoso
02-08-2010, 5:36 PM
Here's the law on Justifiable Homicide


Justifiable Homicide: Self-Defense CALCRIM 505

The defendant is not guilty of (murder/ [or] manslaughter/ attempted murder/ [or] attempted voluntary manslaughter) if (he/she) was justified in (killing/attempting to kill) someone in (self-defense/ [or] defense of another). The defendant acted in lawful (self-defense/ [or] defense of another) if:

1. The defendant reasonably believed that (he/she/ [or] someone else/ [or] ___________________ <insert name or description of third party> ) was in imminent danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury [or was in imminent danger of being (raped/maimed/robbed/ _________________ <insert other forcible and atrocious crime> )];

2. The defendant reasonably believed that the immediate use of deadly force was necessary to defend against that danger;

AND


3. The defendant used no more force than was reasonably necessary to defend against that danger.


Belief in future harm is not sufficient, no matter how great or how likely the harm is believed to be. The defendant must have believed there was imminent danger of great bodily injury to (himself/herself/ [or] someone else). Defendant's belief must have been reasonable and (he/she) must have acted only because of that belief. The defendant is only entitled to use that amount of force that a reasonable person would believe is necessary in the same situation. If the defendant used more force than was reasonable, the [attempted] killing was not justified.

When deciding whether the defendant's beliefs were reasonable, consider all the circumstances as they were known to and appeared to the defendant and consider what a reasonable person in a similar situation with similar knowledge would have believed. If the defendant's beliefs were reasonable, the danger does not need to have actually existed.

[The defendant's belief that (he/she/ [or] someone else) was threatened may be reasonable even if (he/she) relied on information that was not true. However, the defendant must actually and reasonably have believed that the information was true.]

[If you find that ___________________ <insert name of decedent/victim> threatened or harmed the defendant [or others] in the past, you may consider that information in deciding whether the defendant's conduct and beliefs were reasonable.]

[If you find that the defendant knew that ___________________ <insert name of decedent/victim> had threatened or harmed others in the past, you may consider that information in deciding whether the defendant's conduct and beliefs were reasonable.]

[Someone who has been threatened or harmed by a person in the past, is justified in acting more quickly or taking greater self-defense measures against that person.]

[If you find that the defendant received a threat from someone else that (he/she) reasonably associated with ___________________ <insert name of decedent/victim> , you may consider that threat in deciding whether the defendant was justified in acting in (self-defense/ [or] defense of another).]

[A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to stand his or her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger of (death/great bodily injury/ _________________ <insert forcible and atrocious crime> ) has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating.]

[ Great bodily injury means significant or substantial physical injury. It is an injury that is greater than minor or moderate harm.]

The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the [attempted] killing was not justified. If the People have not met this burden, you must find the defendant not guilty of (murder/ [or] manslaughter/ attempted murder/ [or] attempted voluntary manslaughter).




Looks to me like the shooter pulled the gun when not confronted with deadly force. Victim attacked shooter without a weapon.

Mulay El Raisuli
02-09-2010, 5:27 AM
Looks to me like the shooter pulled the gun when not confronted with deadly force. Victim attacked shooter without a weapon.


While the jury instruction you cite is spot on, your last comment must rate as FAIL. It isn't the presence/absence of a weapon that is the determining factor. It is the presence/absence of the threat of great bodily harm that matters.

In the present matter, there were multiple A-holes attacking a guy on a city street. We have all seen instances of people being severely hurt/killed in similar situations. I could go on, but that's all that need be said to show that the shooter/victim (because you got that wrong too) was more than justified in shooting the attacker.


The Raisuli

P.S. Are you a prosecutor on the side?

inbox485
02-10-2010, 1:07 PM
The Raisuli

P.S. Are you a prosecutor on the side?

Like other defense attorneys I've seen post here he appears to be giving you a conservative view of the situation. I believe the insight worth taking away is that the DA is likely to argue that the fists only situation would not have wounded the guy enough to justify deadly force.

BTW, thanks JSilvoso for the CALCRIM 505 snip. That is a keeper.

Pistol Fan
02-10-2010, 1:42 PM
Interested to see how this plays out.:popcorn:

popngen
02-10-2010, 2:28 PM
The article also says:

"DiDonato, the nephew of city Republican leader Michael Meehan, was a two-time captain and a four-year starter (defense) at Villanova. He graduated last May with a degree in criminal justice."

After seeing the picture of him, and the video; I don't have much respect for the 'victim'. I'm going to judge him and say that I know plenty of people like him from my college days.

I can say that if I were in Ung's place, I would have pulled the trigger too.

dantodd
02-10-2010, 2:42 PM
Looks to me like the shooter pulled the gun when not confronted with deadly force. Victim attacked shooter without a weapon.

If you think a gang of people, particularly as strong as the attacker here appears in the photos, is not deadly force I strongly urge you to read RomanDad's story. How about Reginald Denny? No guns, do you think that was "deadly force?"

Bhobbs
02-10-2010, 3:05 PM
At my high school a girl was punched in the head by another girl. She immediately began seizing while the other girl and her friends began to punch and kick her on the floor. If that is not deadly force than I don't know what is. The attacker was a below averaged size female. That guy looks at least stocky so who knows how strong he really is.

If I wanted to fight someone but not kill them and they pulled a gun on me I would back down. Either the "victim" was calling his bluff or really wanted to hurt the guy.

Diabolus
02-10-2010, 3:20 PM
If Ung was drinking, would his BAC play a part in this case?

I'd have to imagine it would play a big part, especially in the civil case. I'd have to assume DiDonato had to have been drinking to engage a person with a firearm.

Uriah02
02-10-2010, 3:22 PM
Looked clean. Out numbered by an agressive bunch. It is huge that they didn't back off after he drew his weapon. I have to wonder what initially caused the confrontation as that will be huge in the court case.

Mulay El Raisuli
02-11-2010, 4:34 AM
Like other defense attorneys I've seen post here he appears to be giving you a conservative view of the situation. I believe the insight worth taking away is that the DA is likely to argue that the fists only situation would not have wounded the guy enough to justify deadly force.


I don't think so. He didn't say "the DA is likely to..." or anything like that. What he said was


Originally Posted by JSilvoso
Looks to me like the shooter pulled the gun when not confronted with deadly force. Victim attacked shooter without a weapon.


That's pretty clearly his opinion being stated; that the lack of a weapon equals no risk of great bodily harm/death. Which, as I & others here have pointed out, is just nuts.


The Raisuli

SamsDX
02-17-2011, 6:09 PM
Surprised this wasn't brought up earlier, but two days ago (Tuesday, Feb. 15, 2011) a jury found him not guilty - it was a good shoot, just as (most of us) had thought all along:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Temple_student_not_guilty_in_Old_City_shooting.htm l
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/02/breaking-temple-law-student-gerald-ung-found-not-guilty-in-shooting/

Good for him, though this is probably just about half over for him because I'm sure he'll be up against a civil suit from the "victim." Given the circumstances, I suppose this ending is as "happy" as it could have been - still a rotten situation all around.

Falconis
02-17-2011, 6:49 PM
I see self defense from the moment he walked away and idiot frat boys followed him for a blobk and a half. I see idiot frat boy asking for the darwin award by lunging at a man with a gun pointed at him.

I hope he gets a good reasonable jury during the civil trial, but yeah, lawyers fees will probably eat up everything he has. As far as the criminal trial goes, unless I am missing something, I think he should be acquitted. Even if he told the frat boys yo momma and everything else under the sun.

EDIT- and what samdx posted

753X0
02-17-2011, 8:20 PM
I don't think so. He didn't say "the DA is likely to..." or anything like that. What he said was



That's pretty clearly his opinion being stated; that the lack of a weapon equals no risk of great bodily harm/death. Which, as I & others here have pointed out, is just nuts.


The Raisuli

I agree. When I was about 14 years old, I was sparring with an adult male about 100 pounds my superior, and accidentally tagged him in the side of the head with a punch that I intended to pull. He was out cold.
No cites at hand, but I have become aware of cases similar to this one where the shooter was deemed justified strictly on the numerical superiority of the opposition.
Seems like common sense, really. These kinds of roving animal packs kick people to death all the time. Weapons aren't needed to take a life.

Code7inOaktown
02-17-2011, 9:20 PM
UPDATE: On February 15, 2010, Gerald Ung was found NOT GUILTY on all charges with a UNANIMOUS VERDICT from the jury!!!! Thank you all for your support, your letters, your donations, and a SPECIAL thanks to those who provided moral support and attended the trial.

On January 17, 2010, Gerald Ung, our dear friend and close colleague, was arrested and criminally charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault when he fired a weapon to defend himself and his companions in the Old City section of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Many of us met Gerald in Northern Virginia as children. Many of us met him in college in Rochester, New York. Some of us became acquainted with Gerald at law school at Temple University in Philadelphia. Everyone who meets Gerald is instantly drawn to his charismatic, intelligent, self-sacrificing, warm, and loving personality. Gerald’s friends have started this non-profit corporation in order to raise funds for his legal defense. All donations received will go directly to his legal counsel, to the maintenance of this organization, and to other costs associated with his defense.

Thank you all for your time, love, and support. We also wish Mr. Didonato a healthy and speedy recovery.

I suspect the DA pressed charges because the attacker, Didonato, is politically connected. I'm glad the jury sided with the defendant.

And who said .38 cal was better than 9mm here? I suspect Didonato's condition would certainly have been different if the defendant had been armed with a Glock 26 and 10 rounds of Winchester Ranger +P rounds. Of course, we don't know what the load was in the .38 but I doubt they were 158 grain "FBI" loads.

Code7inOaktown
02-17-2011, 9:39 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20110211_Different_version_of_Old_City_shooting_em erges_at_trial.html

A little more from the court room.

Keh said she approached the scaffolding as DiDonato's friend Andrew DiLoreto was doing pull-ups. Keh said she tried to do a pull-up and was distracted by a loud argument.

She said she turned to see one of DiDonato's group - she could not remember who - legs apart, hands gesturing to his crotch, yelling, "Well, come on!"

"What did you say?" was Ung's reply, Keh said.

Afsarnanesh had a different recollection. He said he walked into Market around the scaffolding and heard someone call Ung a derogatory term for someone who is gay.

"So you think we don't speak English, or don't understand English?" countered Ung, Afsarnanesh testified.

DiDonato and his friends are white. Ung and Keh are Asian; Afsarnanesh was born in Iran.

DiDonato and his friends testified that they could not remember any of the words said, though they conceded each side was swearing at the other.

Keh said she feared for her life, especially after Kelly twice rushed them.

The first time, she said, Kelly rushed from Market, right arm cocked as though to sucker-punch Ung.

Keh said she spotted Kelly approaching, blocked the punch, and pushed him backward, saying, "I see that. Stop it!"

She said she tried to make eye contact with Kelly, saying, "You're a good person, don't do this."

Kelly, however, seemed overcome with rage, Keh said, and shouted back: "I'll kill you. You're dead."

Code7inOaktown
02-17-2011, 9:42 PM
And a little more: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...other_man.html

By MENSAH M. DEAN
Philadelphia Daily News

deanm@phillynews.com

Gerald Ung was composed and concise during much of his nearly two hours on the witness stand this morning, but his voice became choked with tears when he spoke about the moment he shot a man six times on a Center City sidewalk in January 2010.

"Back the f--- up!" Temple Law student Ung, 29, said he shouted while pointing his legally registered handgun at Eddie DiDonato, 24. DiDonato and three male friends had been arguing with and following Ung and his two friends on Market Street near 4th.

"And he said, 'Who you gonna shoot?' " Ung said, recalling the words of DiDonato, a recent Villanova University graduate.

"I tried to kick him away," Ung said, tearing up during questioning by his attorney, Jack McMahon.

"Did you shoot him first?" McMahon asked.

"No, I tried to kick him away first," said Ung, who lost his right boot and his balance when DiDonato grabbed his leg.

While falling to the sidewalk in front of the Fox29 television studios, Ung said, he saw sparks fly from his gun.

"He attacked me, I had to shoot him - 4th and Market," Ung shouted frantically to a 9-1-1 dispatcher whom he called on his cell phone immediately after the shooting.

A tape of the call was played to the jury this morning.

"Please don't let me die," DiDonato, shot six times, is heard saying in the background. He testified last week.

Assistant District Attorney Jan McDermott, while cross-examining Ung, asked why he didn't just cross Market Street to get away from DiDonato and his friends, and why he didn't call 9-1-1 for help before shooting the unarmed man.

Ung agreed that he could have crossed the street, but said he had no time to call 9-1-1 before the shooting because one of DiDonato friends was too close to him.

With Ung's testimony, McMahon rested his case. McDermott rested last week.

The attorneys are scheduled to give closing arguments this afternoon.

Code7inOaktown
02-17-2011, 9:51 PM
Oh, for the person who was hating on the 9mm because it's semi-auto, apparently Ung was armed with a Keltec .380 -- NOT a .38. So apologies to the .38 cal and anyone who hated on the 9mm should apologize as well.

Falconis
02-17-2011, 10:00 PM
To anyone that thinks weapons are needed to kill

http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-04-21/news/20858480_1_father-elder-attack

Merovign
02-17-2011, 10:40 PM
In either case, I can only speak for if it were me in that situation. Just based on what I can see in the video, I think I would have tried to apprehend the attacker without pulling out a weapon so quickly.

I absolutely will not get into a close physical unarmed conflict with four aggressive athletic young men, ESPECIALLY if I am carrying a gun they can get hold of after they have piled on top of me to get me to the ground, stabbed me while holding my arms or knocked me unconscious after surrounding me when I was grappling with one of them.

I cannot possibly see anything but a terrible outcome from your choice. Nothing personally, I just can't see that ending well at all.

Ung did the right thing even though he was terrified, that's about as much as we can ask. He protected himself and two friends from multiple aggressive assailants.

Hopefully the assailant (NOT victim) DiDonato will wise up and accept responsibility, but I'm betting he'll sue and when he loses will try to "get back" at Ung, and, if we're lucky, get arrested before he succeeds. Criminal thugs who are surrounded by supporters who make excuses for them do not stop before it's too late.

I did not see anything about charges against the four "youths." Did they make death threats? They obviously followed and attacked Ung. I should think that would be prosecutable. Is it as simple as DiDonato's political connections? Unless there are witnesses with a different version of events, and the outcome of Ung's trial suggests there were not, it would seem to me that they are felons, especially DiDonato.

Skoonie
02-18-2011, 12:13 AM
Perhaps this video should be played for the DA.... http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=395283

Anchors
02-18-2011, 1:40 AM
PA has duty to retreat.
And their expansion of the Castle Doctrine got vetoed, so there is no civil protection.

I don't know about anything else in this case.

Tarn_Helm
02-18-2011, 5:26 AM
The article also says:

"DiDonato, the nephew of city Republican leader Michael Meehan, was a two-time captain and a four-year starter (defense) at Villanova. He graduated last May with a degree in criminal justice."

After seeing the picture of him, and the video; I don't have much respect for the 'victim'. I'm going to judge him and say that I know plenty of people like him from my college days.

I can say that if I were in Ung's place, I would have pulled the trigger too.

+1

Sounds like the perp, the dude who got shot, was a typical belligerent jock/bully/narcissist who thinks his political connectedness will save him from anything.

Remember the story of Esteban Nunez (http://www.ktla.com/ktla-esteban-nunez-sentenced,0,4194431.story).

The moral of poor Mr. Ung's story for us Californians seems to be this: CCW-law reform is not enough--with CCW reform must come reform of laws regarding duty to retreat, burden of proof, and civil liability.

There is in existence already an excellent "boiler plate" version of the kind of CCW legal reforms I am talking about.

The law we could adopt appears in the back of this book: Self-Defense Laws of All 50 States (http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/self-defense-laws-of-all-50-states), which was glowingly reviewed by Christopher Zealand, Research Attorney, NRA-ILA, in American Rifleman magazine.

All we have to do is pass this law here in CA. :smilielol5:

Mulay El Raisuli
02-18-2011, 7:01 AM
Surprised this wasn't brought up earlier, but two days ago (Tuesday, Feb. 15, 2011) a jury found him not guilty - it was a good shoot, just as (most of us) had thought all along:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Temple_student_not_guilty_in_Old_City_shooting.htm l
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/02/breaking-temple-law-student-gerald-ung-found-not-guilty-in-shooting/

Good for him, though this is probably just about half over for him because I'm sure he'll be up against a civil suit from the "victim." Given the circumstances, I suppose this ending is as "happy" as it could have been - still a rotten situation all around.


Thank you for bringing this here. I confess I had forgotten about it.

Its nice to see that a jury can indeed be fair & reasonable. Its too bad that the victim had to be subjected to trial (and the EXPENSE of a lawyer) to get justice. Maybe Mr. Ung should sue his attacker?


The Raisuli

BlindRacer
02-18-2011, 12:22 PM
Question in regards to California's laws. If this were to happen here, and a jury unanimously cleared you of all guilt, are you still able to be sued, and loose potentially everything?

Logic would say, that if you are not guilty criminally, then there is no grounds for a civil case. (isn't that what OJ said?)

The only suing I could see going on, is the shooter suing the attacker, for lawyer fees, court costs, time from work, recuperation of lost wages, distress of being forced to shoot someone, and probably some other things.

Is California really this scre...I'm not even going to finish that question, cause I know it's that screwed up.

Zeiss700
02-18-2011, 12:31 PM
Moral of the story : Dont fight over something unless its worth getting shot or killed.

As Jesus would say "turn the other cheek".

Code7inOaktown
02-18-2011, 12:31 PM
Question in regards to California's laws. If this were to happen here, and a jury unanimously cleared you of all guilt, are you still able to be sued, and loose potentially everything?

Logic would say, that if you are not guilty criminally, then there is no grounds for a civil case. (isn't that what OJ said?)

The only suing I could see going on, is the shooter suing the attacker, for lawyer fees, court costs, time from work, recuperation of lost wages, distress of being forced to shoot someone, and probably some other things.

Is California really this scre...I'm not even going to finish that question, cause I know it's that screwed up.

I think in most states, you can expect a civil suit, not just Calif. That the DA filed a case here is just proof of how idiotic Philadelphia is or of how much pull this guy's uncle/daddy had.

Aleksandr Mravinsky
02-18-2011, 4:54 PM
That news clip was entirely biased. They forget to mention that DiDonato came at Ung even after the weapon was pulled. That shows that he was determined to cause some harm to Ung.

Also, I've always heard on this website that after a clean shoot it's really likely that you are going to get into a civil suit, but I've always wondered what the grounds for such a suit would be. What exactly would the perpetrator or his/her family be suing you for if you shot in self defence?

JeepFreak
02-18-2011, 6:54 PM
There's also an object lesson here. If you pull a weapon hoping that the other (unarmed in this case) guy will back off, you really have no options left but to shoot if he doesn't.

http://www.slicky.net/smilies/werd.gif That's what I was a thinking.
Billy

JeepFreak
02-18-2011, 7:38 PM
Question in regards to California's laws. If this were to happen here, and a jury unanimously cleared you of all guilt, are you still able to be sued, and loose potentially everything?

Logic would say, that if you are not guilty criminally, then there is no grounds for a civil case. (isn't that what OJ said?)

The only suing I could see going on, is the shooter suing the attacker, for lawyer fees, court costs, time from work, recuperation of lost wages, distress of being forced to shoot someone, and probably some other things.

Is California really this scre...I'm not even going to finish that question, cause I know it's that screwed up.

OJ might have said that, but he did get sued by the survivors of either Ron Goldman or Nicole Brown and he lost, so that's a perfect example of how it could happen. Hopefully that doesn't happen to this guy. If I was Ung, I'd protect my assets and represent myself. The hell if I'm going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a lawyer just so that I can say I won.
Billy

JeepFreak
02-18-2011, 7:39 PM
Moral of the story : Dont fight over something unless its worth getting shot or killed.

As Jesus would say "turn the other cheek".

Wait... what? Who would be turning the other cheek? The bully that started the fight? or the guy that was defending his life? :confused:
Billy

Code7inOaktown
02-18-2011, 9:55 PM
Moral of the story : Dont fight over something unless its worth getting shot or killed.

As Jesus would say "turn the other cheek".

I would have to agree. Are you saying the true victim here, the law student, not the frat boy, should have just taken his beating instead of defending himself and his girlfriend?

Aleksandr Mravinsky
02-18-2011, 10:17 PM
I would have to agree. Are you saying the true victim here, the law student, not the frat boy, should have just taken his beating instead of defending himself and his girlfriend?

I think he's saying that the frat boys should have just ignored whatever it was the law student did to anger them. If Ung had just taken the beating he'd probably be in the obituary.

mdimeo
02-18-2011, 10:39 PM
"turn the other cheek".

...that way, the swelling comes out even.

Tarn_Helm
02-18-2011, 11:02 PM
Moral of the story : Dont fight over something unless its worth getting shot or killed.

As Jesus would say "turn the other cheek".

Food for thought:

Is the Best Defense a Good Book? (http://www.davekopel.com/Religion/Is-the-best-defense-a-good-book.pdf) Refutes the claim of pacifist-aggressives that the New Testament mandates pacifism. America's 1st Freedom, February 2007. PDF (http://www.davekopel.com/Religion/Is-the-best-defense-a-good-book.pdf).

Is the Best Defense a Good Book? Part II. The Old Testament and Self-defense. (http://www.davekopel.com/Religion/Best-Defense-Part-II.pdf) America's 1st Freedom. Sept. 2008. PDF (http://www.davekopel.com/Religion/Best-Defense-Part-II.pdf).

:thumbsup:

:lurk5:

Mulay El Raisuli
02-19-2011, 5:10 AM
Food for thought:

Is the Best Defense a Good Book? (http://www.davekopel.com/Religion/Is-the-best-defense-a-good-book.pdf) Refutes the claim of pacifist-aggressives that the New Testament mandates pacifism. America's 1st Freedom, February 2007. PDF (http://www.davekopel.com/Religion/Is-the-best-defense-a-good-book.pdf).

Is the Best Defense a Good Book? Part II. The Old Testament and Self-defense. (http://www.davekopel.com/Religion/Best-Defense-Part-II.pdf) America's 1st Freedom. Sept. 2008. PDF (http://www.davekopel.com/Religion/Best-Defense-Part-II.pdf).

:thumbsup:

:lurk5:


Thank you! I recently got a bunch of back issues from a friend of mine & came across these. The first thing I thought is that this guy is just so smart. The second thought was I just gotta get these in digital form. And now I do.


The Raisuli

Paladin
02-19-2011, 5:29 AM
Are you saying the true victim here, the law student, not the frat boy, should have just taken his beating instead of defending himself and his girlfriend?As I recall from reading the above posts and linked articles, witnesses said in court that *both* sides exchanged heated words even before the one group followed the other.

In the Bible, unless specified, the assumption is the parties are right handed, just as is the vast majority of the population. Thus, when Jesus in Matthew 5:39 said if the BG slaps you on your right cheek offer him the other, the assumption is that it is a backhanded slap by the BG against you -- it is an act of insulting, not a combat strike. IOW, if someone starts insulting you, don't return the favor. Avoid escalating personal conflicts. Otherwise, they may well turn into personal combat.

Jesus did NOT say if a man stabs you in the right side of your chest, you are to offer him your left side too. Jesus did NOT say if a rapist enters your daughters bedroom window at night, you are to welcome him and show him the way to your other daughter's bedroom too.

IEShooter
02-19-2011, 6:29 AM
After reading the account, he's going to have a very tough time of it.

In the situation described, I doubt I would have pulled my CCW. More importantly, it appears that the shooter MAY have instigated the confrontation by his initial "bump".

The DA probably asked himself if Mr. Ung would have been so bold with 3-4 big guys had he not been carrying.

Having a CCW is an enormous responsibility and if he truly did instigate this by bumping the group, then he may be toast.

Paladin
02-19-2011, 6:43 AM
To me, the fact that something bad would happen was almost a foregone conclusion.

We have one group of four young single white guys ("adults") out at 2:30 at nite, having just left a bar, and who are watching one of their own (showing off?) doing pull-ups on construction scaffolding. There is not a woman with them.

Next, we have a second group of young "adults" (Asian guy Gerald Ung, Asian gal Keh, and Middle Eastern guy Afsarnanesh), who are also out at 2:30 at nite, also leaving a bar.

Right there, you've got PLENTY of foolishness all around to cause problems, and that is why I put quotes around "adults" when applying it to BOTH groups.

Now comes the critical event that has not been highlighted: for some reason (Let's speculate: she's not satisfied w/being the "alpha female" (actually, only female) of her group, she also wants to be the center of male attention from this other group?), Asian gal Keh decides to go over to where the white guys are doing pull-ups and try to do pull-ups too. Following her are Gerald and Afsarnanesh, presumably her "protectors." Remember: this is at 2:30 at nite after both groups of strangers have left bars. After Keh brings these two groups of single, young men w/o other women together, EVERYTHING goes down hill fast.

Before Keh's even off of the bar (after having failed to crank out even 1 pull-up), the guys from the two groups are arguing, hurling quasi racial and sexual insults at each other.

This is another one of those cases where clueless/foolish gals drag their guys into no-win situations, and then they walk away smelling like roses while the guys end up looking like chumps (because they acted like chimps). Now one guy, DiDonato, has had his guts shot out and sewn back up and is partially paralyzed and the another guy, Gerald Ung, has been thru criminal law hell, is saddled w/a TON of legal costs, and will next probably face civil law hell and more legal costs.

And what about our gal, Keh, who brought these two groups together outside of bars at 2:30 in the morning? Zip. Nada. Nothing.

Poor Gerald has suffered much for choosing to go out w/that foolish gal, Keh. She isn't his wife and it doesn't sound like she was even his girlfriend. Neither he nor Afsarnanesh, the other guy he was with, told Keh to go over to that group of young, single, white guys w/o any women, and try doing pull-ups next to them. Nope. If Keh was not there, IMO, Gerald and Afsarnanesh would have avoided that other group of young, single men of a different racial/ethnic background who are w/o women.

Guys, remember if your gal expects you to bail her out, to protect her, she had better follow your lead because whatever she says, whatever she does, and wherever she goes puts YOUR life at risk. If she will not follow you, you've got three choices: (1) dump her (your best choice), (2) keep her, but change the terms of your relationship by abdicating responsibility for protecting her (or, in this case, even following her to where the white guys were doing pull-ups), or (3) just pray that she not drag you into a situation like Keh did with Gerald.

For those to whom this may not have seemed foreseeable, read my post at: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=5382991#post5382991 It is not meant to be "politically correct," but rather reflect the reality that we find ourselves in so that we may navigate our way thru life w/less needless drama and lead a "quiet and peaceful" life. I try to flesh it out periodically as I gain more insights, remember more lessons of life, find new links.

An aside: This is another example of how much foolishness ends up costing ALL OF US by increasing our insurance rates -- who do you think is going to end up paying for all of DiDonato's surgical, medical, and rehabilitative costs??? The insurance companies. Where do they get their money? From charging the rest of us premiums. Related: Socialized medicine shifts most of the burden of foolish behavior off of the fools and places it upon innocent 3rd parties: the rest of us.

Poor people & criminals: who do you think pays for all their medical costs??? Have you ever visited a big city's ER any night of the week? The vast majority of people there aren't wealthy: you don't get to be wealthy by being foolish! (Unless you are in entertainment (sports, movies/TV, or music), in which case you'll probably crash and burn before too long.) The law-abiding, hard working taxpayers are FORCED to pay for their medical expenses too (in addition to welfare (food, clothing, shelter) in all its forms, whether they're in prison or outside.

Mulay El Raisuli
02-21-2011, 11:24 AM
As I recall from reading the above posts and linked articles, witnesses said in court that *both* sides exchanged heated words even before the one group followed the other.

In the Bible, unless specified, the assumption is the parties are right handed, just as is the vast majority of the population. Thus, when Jesus in Matthew 5:39 said if the BG slaps you on your right cheek offer him the other, the assumption is that it is a backhanded slap by the BG against you -- it is an act of insulting, not a combat strike. IOW, if someone starts insulting you, don't return the favor. Avoid escalating personal conflicts. Otherwise, they may well turn into personal combat.

Jesus did NOT say if a man stabs you in the right side of your chest, you are to offer him your left side too. Jesus did NOT say if a rapist enters your daughters bedroom window at night, you are to welcome him and show him the way to your other daughter's bedroom too.


I think that is the best response (to idiots who so love to quote this passage) I have ever seen.


The Raisuli

gunsmith
02-21-2011, 2:17 PM
After reading the account, he's going to have a very tough time of it.

In the situation described, I doubt I would have pulled my CCW. More importantly, it appears that the shooter MAY have instigated the confrontation by his initial "bump".

The DA probably asked himself if Mr. Ung would have been so bold with 3-4 big guys had he not been carrying.

Having a CCW is an enormous responsibility and if he truly did instigate this by bumping the group, then he may be toast.

LOL, you wrote that after http://theungfund.org/ announced that he has been found not guilty.

UPDATE: On February 15, 2010, Gerald Ung was found NOT GUILTY on all charges with a UNANIMOUS VERDICT from the jury!!!!

gunsmith
02-21-2011, 2:23 PM
btw, I'm guessing that the date ( on his blog I quoted ) is a typo, as this is a really old thread and that he was found not guilty this/last week. stand by for google confirmation. ...
YUP!!!

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/116258729.html?cmpid=15585797

gunsmith
02-21-2011, 2:38 PM
Moral of the story : Dont fight over something unless its worth getting shot or killed.

As Jesus would say "turn the other cheek".
Jesus said a lot of cool stuff, like for instance “let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one”. Luke 22:36

that whole turn the other cheek could have simply meant that it isn't necessary to have a duel due to an insult, as well as thou shalt not kill might really mean thou shall not commit murder.

It could be that our self defense laws are based on the biblical notion that our bodies are Gods temple and we need to defend it, & that could be why suicide is a sin as well as illegal. But what do I know.

Scottie15
02-21-2011, 4:53 PM
First thing I thought of when I read the articles and saw the video was this article by Massad Ayoob regarding disparity of force.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_154_25/ai_77824400/

Ayoob's formula for when the decision to use deadly force is, generally, does the attacker have the ability to do you and yours great bodily harm; in this case by a disparity of force in numbers. The attacker must have the opportunity to inflict harm; the primary aggressor was already throwing punches, potential secondary attackers were right behind DiDonato. The aggressor must be acting in a way a normal person would perceive their intent is great bodily harm; DiDonato advanced, and even mocked Mr. Ung in the spite of the fact that he had drawn a gun.

All three triggers for the use of deadly force are very clearly present in this case. In my mind it should have been ruled a good shoot after reviewing statements from both parties and the video tape. Too bad that prosecutor/DA had some political agenda. I'm glad PA has some good citizens who were able to think for themselves that made it onto the jury.

Here is a link to one of the articles Ayoob wrote summarizing decisions related to the use of deadly force: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n3_v37/ai_12462185/?tag=rbxcra.2.a.11

STAGE 2
02-21-2011, 5:05 PM
If I had to bet money, this guy will go to jail. This doesn't fit the traditional disparity of force scenario and there aren't very many cases which give the ok to shooting someone merely because they want to clobber you.

Fear of death or serious bodily injury isn't the standard, the fear must be reasonable as well. I don't think that this one gets there.

kermit315
02-21-2011, 5:13 PM
If I had to bet money, this guy will go to jail. This doesn't fit the traditional disparity of force scenario and there aren't very many cases which give the ok to shooting someone merely because they want to clobber you.

Fear of death or serious bodily injury isn't the standard, the fear must be reasonable as well. I don't think that this one gets there.

You do realize he was already found not guilty, right?

Scottie15
02-21-2011, 5:17 PM
He was found not guilty on all charges, so the jury at least sided with the defense's presentation of the case and situation.

I believe there is sufficient evidence to support disparity of force by numbers (both generally speaking, and as presented earlier in this thread) that shooting an unarmed, advancing aggressor in a one-on-four scenario would be a justified use of force.

BillCA
02-21-2011, 5:37 PM
I did a quick search and didn't see anything so hopefully it's not a a dupe.

Video here. (http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/Old_City_Shooting_01_17_10) Readers digest version goes like this. Ung bumps into some DiDonato on the street and Ung and DiDonato's group exchange words as Ung walks away. DiDonato's group (3-4 guys) follows Ung's group (another guy and a girl) for a block and a half. One of DiDonato's group shoves Ung. Ung pulls his CCW and points it at the person that pushed him while continuing to back up. DiDonato continues to walk towards the Ung and eventually attacks Ung. Ung and DiDonato fall backwards out of frame but not before DiDonato is shot 6 times. Ung stayed at the scene (DiDonato's group fled), called police, and surrendered. Ung has a valid concealed permit in VA. Ung is arrested for attempted murder. Is this a good shoot? Is a handful of frat boys looking to pick a fight good enough reason to use deadly force?

Fox 29 security cameras caught the violence on videotape around 2:30 a.m. Sunday, when Gerald Ung first bump into Eddie DiDonato and his friends. Next, DiDonato and his friends appear to follow Ung. That's when you see Ung pull out a gun and point the weapon.

Then, the video shows DiDonato – who is unarmed – lunge toward Ung.

Police say Ung fired five times, critically wounding DiDonato.

"The law of justification of self defense where deadly force is used is very exacting," said criminal defense attorney Brian McMonagle, who is not representing any of the parties in this case.

McMonagle said Pennsylvania law is clear on when deadly force can be used. He thinks that Ung, who has been charged with attempted murder, will have a tough time proving he was justified in firing his gun.

"The only way you can respond with deadly force in Pennsylvania is if you reasonably believe that deadly force is being used on you," McMonagle said.

McMonagle added that things are different if a person is inside his or her home and someone broke in. But shooting an unarmed man on a public street, he said, creates a difficult case for self defense.

"The obligation is is that you have to believe that you're going to be placed in jeopardy of either life-threatening injury or death by your assailant, whether it's in your house or on the street. The difference is in your house you don't have to retreat safely – you can fire. On the street, you have to see if you can retreat safely before you use deadly force," McMonagle said.

My take on it after seeing the video is that he was within his legal rights to shoot the attacker.

He's with a couple and apparently accidentally gets into a dispute with 3 others. In theory, it's "even odds", however one of Ung's group is a slightly built woman. Just before the shooting it appears that one of the DiDonato-3 assaults the woman's date and is pushed away by the woman. At that point, it looks like man #2 of DiDonato's group steps around that fracas and heads for Ung along with DiDonato. Despite seeing Ung with a gun, DiDonato is not dissuaded and lunges closer, perhaps reaching for the gun (hard to tell in the video). At that point a fight ensues and DiDonato learns a hard lesson in attacking an armed man.

Without audio, it's unknown what was said and who said what. However, it is most likely Ung was trying to tell them to back off or go away.

At best, Ung was at a disadvantage of 3:2 odds to start with. When one of the DiDonato party assaults his friend, it becomes 2:1 odds against him. DiDonato, instead of backing off, lunges and assaults. Ung is no longer able to do anything but defend himself from a felonious beating, possible loss of his weapon and a probable fatal shot with his own gun. He fires until DiDonato's threat stops.

If members of DiDonato's group were issuing threats or challenges to fight, then Ung had reason to fear for his safety and that of his friends. After the initial assault on his (male) friend, Ung produces the weapon. DiDonato could have backed off and gone away, but he chose to press the assault on Ung and he alone bears responsibility for his injuries.

That's how I see it.

gunsmith
02-21-2011, 6:12 PM
If I had to bet money, this guy will go to jail. This doesn't fit the traditional disparity of force scenario and there aren't very many cases which give the ok to shooting someone merely because they want to clobber you.

Fear of death or serious bodily injury isn't the standard, the fear must be reasonable as well. I don't think that this one gets there.

I'll take that bet! right now! put yer $$$ where your sentiment is!! please make a bet with me!!!

Kid Stanislaus
02-21-2011, 6:35 PM
Five shots and the victim is alert. I'd say it was horrible aim.

Handguns, they are very underpowered self defense weapons. :(

Kid Stanislaus
02-21-2011, 7:10 PM
Moral of the story : Dont fight over something unless its worth getting shot or killed. As Jesus would say "turn the other cheek".

So, just how much experience did this guy "Jesus" have dealing with a bunch of college aged numbnuts who think attacking another person on a public street is a perfectly acceptable thing to do?:confused:

Kid Stanislaus
02-21-2011, 7:31 PM
To me, the fact that something bad would happen was almost a foregone conclusion. We have one group of four young single white guys ("adults") out at 2:30 at nite, having just left a bar, and who are watching one of their own (showing off?) doing pull-ups on construction scaffolding. There is not a woman with them. Next, we have a second group of young "adults" (Asian guy Gerald Ung, Asian gal Keh, and Middle Eastern guy Afsarnanesh), who are also out at 2:30 at nite, also leaving a bar. Right there, you've got PLENTY of foolishness all around to cause problems, and that is why I put quotes around "adults" when applying it to BOTH groups. Now comes the critical event that has not been highlighted: for some reason (Let's speculate: she's not satisfied w/being the "alpha female" (actually, only female) of her group, she also wants to be the center of male attention from this other group?), Asian gal Keh decides to go over to where the white guys are doing pull-ups and try to do pull-ups too. Following her are Gerald and Afsarnanesh, presumably her "protectors." Remember: this is at 2:30 at nite after both groups of strangers have left bars. After Keh brings these two groups of single, young men w/o other women together, EVERYTHING goes down hill fast. Before Keh's even off of the bar (after having failed to crank out even 1 pull-up), the guys from the two groups are arguing, hurling quasi racial and sexual insults at each other.
This is another one of those cases where clueless/foolish gals drag their guys into no-win situations, and then they walk away smelling like roses while the guys end up looking like chumps (because they acted like chimps). Now one guy, DiDonato, has had his guts shot out and sewn back up and is partially paralyzed and the another guy, Gerald Ung, has been thru criminal law hell, is saddled w/a TON of legal costs, and will next probably face civil law hell and more legal costs. And what about our gal, Keh, who brought these two groups together outside of bars at 2:30 in the morning? Zip. Nada. Nothing.
Poor Gerald has suffered much for choosing to go out w/that foolish gal, Keh. She isn't his wife and it doesn't sound like she was even his girlfriend. Neither he nor Afsarnanesh, the other guy he was with, told Keh to go over to that group of young, single, white guys w/o any women, and try doing pull-ups next to them. Nope. If Keh was not there, IMO, Gerald and Afsarnanesh would have avoided that other group of young, single men of a different racial/ethnic background who are w/o women. Guys, remember if your gal expects you to bail her out, to protect her, she had better follow your lead because whatever she says, whatever she does, and wherever she goes puts YOUR life at risk. If she will not follow you, you've got three choices: (1) dump her (your best choice), (2) keep her, but change the terms of your relationship by abdicating responsibility for protecting her (or, in this case, even following her to where the white guys were doing pull-ups), or (3) just pray that she not drag you into a situation like Keh did with Gerald. For those to whom this may not have seemed foreseeable, read my post at: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=5382991#post5382991 It is not meant to be "politically correct," but rather reflect the reality that we find ourselves in so that we may navigate our way thru life w/less needless drama and lead a "quiet and peaceful" life. I try to flesh it out periodically as I gain more insights, remember more lessons of life, find new links. An aside: This is another example of how much foolishness ends up costing ALL OF US by increasing our insurance rates -- who do you think is going to end up paying for all of DiDonato's surgical, medical, and rehabilitative costs??? The insurance companies. Where do they get their money? From charging the rest of us premiums. Related: Socialized medicine shifts most of the burden of foolish behavior off of the fools and places it upon innocent 3rd parties: the rest of us. Poor people & criminals: who do you think pays for all their medical costs??? Have you ever visited a big city's ER any night of the week? The vast majority of people there aren't wealthy: you don't get to be wealthy by being foolish! (Unless you are in entertainment (sports, movies/TV, or music), in which case you'll probably crash and burn before too long.) The law-abiding, hard working taxpayers are FORCED to pay for their medical expenses too (in addition to welfare (food, clothing, shelter) in all its forms, whether they're in prison or outside.

You nailed it Paladin. Game play'n beeyutch sucks unknowing friends into a conflict. She was Playing "Let's You and Them Fight" a la Eric Berne.

crazy
02-21-2011, 7:53 PM
To me, the fact that something bad would happen was almost a foregone conclusion.

We have one group of four young single white guys ("adults") out at 2:30 at nite, having just left a bar, and who are watching one of their own (showing off?) doing pull-ups on construction scaffolding. There is not a woman with them.

Next, we have a second group of young "adults" (Asian guy Gerald Ung, Asian gal Keh, and Middle Eastern guy Afsarnanesh), who are also out at 2:30 at nite, also leaving a bar.

Right there, you've got PLENTY of foolishness all around to cause problems, and that is why I put quotes around "adults" when applying it to BOTH groups.

Now comes the critical event that has not been highlighted: for some reason (Let's speculate: she's not satisfied w/being the "alpha female" (actually, only female) of her group, she also wants to be the center of male attention from this other group?), Asian gal Keh decides to go over to where the white guys are doing pull-ups and try to do pull-ups too. Following her are Gerald and Afsarnanesh, presumably her "protectors." Remember: this is at 2:30 at nite after both groups of strangers have left bars. After Keh brings these two groups of single, young men w/o other women together, EVERYTHING goes down hill fast.

Before Keh's even off of the bar (after having failed to crank out even 1 pull-up), the guys from the two groups are arguing, hurling quasi racial and sexual insults at each other.

This is another one of those cases where clueless/foolish gals drag their guys into no-win situations, and then they walk away smelling like roses while the guys end up looking like chumps (because they acted like chimps). Now one guy, DiDonato, has had his guts shot out and sewn back up and is partially paralyzed and the another guy, Gerald Ung, has been thru criminal law hell, is saddled w/a TON of legal costs, and will next probably face civil law hell and more legal costs.

And what about our gal, Keh, who brought these two groups together outside of bars at 2:30 in the morning? Zip. Nada. Nothing.

Poor Gerald has suffered much for choosing to go out w/that foolish gal, Keh. She isn't his wife and it doesn't sound like she was even his girlfriend. Neither he nor Afsarnanesh, the other guy he was with, told Keh to go over to that group of young, single, white guys w/o any women, and try doing pull-ups next to them. Nope. If Keh was not there, IMO, Gerald and Afsarnanesh would have avoided that other group of young, single men of a different racial/ethnic background who are w/o women.

Guys, remember if your gal expects you to bail her out, to protect her, she had better follow your lead because whatever she says, whatever she does, and wherever she goes puts YOUR life at risk. If she will not follow you, you've got three choices: (1) dump her (your best choice), (2) keep her, but change the terms of your relationship by abdicating responsibility for protecting her (or, in this case, even following her to where the white guys were doing pull-ups), or (3) just pray that she not drag you into a situation like Keh did with Gerald.

For those to whom this may not have seemed foreseeable, read my post at: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=5382991#post5382991 It is not meant to be "politically correct," but rather reflect the reality that we find ourselves in so that we may navigate our way thru life w/less needless drama and lead a "quiet and peaceful" life. I try to flesh it out periodically as I gain more insights, remember more lessons of life, find new links.

An aside: This is another example of how much foolishness ends up costing ALL OF US by increasing our insurance rates -- who do you think is going to end up paying for all of DiDonato's surgical, medical, and rehabilitative costs??? The insurance companies. Where do they get their money? From charging the rest of us premiums. Related: Socialized medicine shifts most of the burden of foolish behavior off of the fools and places it upon innocent 3rd parties: the rest of us.

Poor people & criminals: who do you think pays for all their medical costs??? Have you ever visited a big city's ER any night of the week? The vast majority of people there aren't wealthy: you don't get to be wealthy by being foolish! (Unless you are in entertainment (sports, movies/TV, or music), in which case you'll probably crash and burn before too long.) The law-abiding, hard working taxpayers are FORCED to pay for their medical expenses too (in addition to welfare (food, clothing, shelter) in all its forms, whether they're in prison or outside.



Is this scenario fact or conjecture?

STAGE 2
02-21-2011, 7:55 PM
You do realize he was already found not guilty, right?

If I did, I probably wouldn't have said that. However I still stand by what I said in that the number of cases in which someone shoots an unarmed man dont turn out well for the shooter.

crazy
02-21-2011, 8:13 PM
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs176.snc3/20350_108218222522434_100000027704119_215716_43556 15_n.jpg


The article also says:

"DiDonato, the nephew of city Republican leader Michael Meehan, was a two-time captain and a four-year starter (defense) at Villanova. He graduated last May with a degree in criminal justice."

After seeing the picture of him, and the video; I don't have much respect for the 'victim'. I'm going to judge him and say that I know plenty of people like him from my college days.

I can say that if I were in Ung's place, I would have pulled the trigger too.


Another fine upstanding citizen getting ready to join the ranks of LE. I know I will be able to sleep better at night knowing this.

Former Villanova Captain DiDonato Continues to Improve

If I read one more time about him being Captain of the Lacrosse team, my head will explode right after I puke. Who gives a flying f***!

JeepFreak
02-21-2011, 9:16 PM
If I did, I probably wouldn't have said that. However I still stand by what I said in that the number of cases in which someone shoots an unarmed man dont turn out well for the shooter.

Yeah, it's not usually much of a "career booster"! ;)
Billy

Paladin
02-22-2011, 11:20 PM
Is this scenario fact or conjecture?Based on the facts asserted in the articles and other info that's been posted.

My conjectures are that the white guys (lest people think I'm trashing whites in that post, I'm white), are showing off doing pull-ups on a public sidewalk using construction scaffolding at 2:30 am (not a big conjecture IMO), and that "our gal" Keh went over to that group of strangers to join them in doing pull-ups at 2:30 am because she wanted to be the center of more male attention (again, not a huge stretch of the imagination).

pitchbaby
02-22-2011, 11:41 PM
I absolutely will not get into a close physical unarmed conflict with four aggressive athletic young men, ESPECIALLY if I am carrying a gun they can get hold of after they have piled on top of me to get me to the ground, stabbed me while holding my arms or knocked me unconscious after surrounding me when I was grappling with one of them.

I cannot possibly see anything but a terrible outcome from your choice. Nothing personally, I just can't see that ending well at all.

Ung did the right thing even though he was terrified, that's about as much as we can ask. He protected himself and two friends from multiple aggressive assailants.

Hopefully the assailant (NOT victim) DiDonato will wise up and accept responsibility, but I'm betting he'll sue and when he loses will try to "get back" at Ung, and, if we're lucky, get arrested before he succeeds. Criminal thugs who are surrounded by supporters who make excuses for them do not stop before it's too late.

I did not see anything about charges against the four "youths." Did they make death threats? They obviously followed and attacked Ung. I should think that would be prosecutable. Is it as simple as DiDonato's political connections? Unless there are witnesses with a different version of events, and the outcome of Ung's trial suggests there were not, it would seem to me that they are felons, especially DiDonato.

Physical size and skill level have a lot to do with the decision to fight... also... where I keep a gun when I do carry, isn't likely to be a place that anyone would just be able to grab it.... that is... when I am in a free America state that allows me to carry.

In other words... I usually would have no choice other than to fight my way out from the bottom of the pile... hence the time and attention I pay to keeping my size and skill level up.

renzoku
02-23-2011, 1:53 AM
Assailant isn't dead?
Doesn't look like a very good shoot to me. Were I the shooter, I'd be assessing what went wrong.

:D

crazy
02-23-2011, 7:10 AM
Based on the facts asserted in the articles and other info that's been posted.

My conjectures are that the white guys (lest people think I'm trashing whites in that post, I'm white), are showing off doing pull-ups on a public sidewalk using construction scaffolding at 2:30 am (not a big conjecture IMO), and that "our gal" Keh went over to that group of strangers to join them in doing pull-ups at 2:30 am because she wanted to be the center of more male attention (again, not a huge stretch of the imagination).


I would have left "the gal" with her new friends. She wants to play, let her play.

submoa1
02-23-2011, 12:31 PM
Man, he shot him all over the place. Double to the head if possible. Dead men tell no tales.