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wellerjohn
01-27-2010, 3:53 PM
Would this be a legal locked container her in California?https://consolevault.com/products/?Vehicle=25

fd15k
01-27-2010, 4:01 PM
Most likely not. I believe there was a mention of center console, as well as permanent attachment as disqualified locked containers.

wellerjohn
01-27-2010, 4:05 PM
Yea I was thinking that too, but it would be perfect......our state stinks!

fd15k
01-27-2010, 4:06 PM
Yea I was thinking that too, but it would be perfect......our state stinks!

But if you put a COM box in the same spot without attaching it, you'd be legal.

GrizzlyGuy
01-27-2010, 4:09 PM
I can't tell if that container fits inside the utility compartment or if it is the utility compartment (as in a replacement for the standard one). If it is the compartment, illegal. If it fits inside the utility compartment, legal. This is per the following exception to illegal concealed carry (12025) in 12026.1 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html):

(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.


See also in the FAQ: Can I keep a gun in my glove box? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_keep_a_gun_in_my_glove_box.3F)

fd15k
01-27-2010, 4:11 PM
I can't tell if that container fits inside the utility compartment or if it is the utility compartment (as in a replacement for the standard one). If it is the compartment, illegal. If it fits inside the utility compartment, legal. This is per the following exception to illegal concealed carry (12025) in 12026.1 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html):



See also in the FAQ: Can I keep a gun in my glove box? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_keep_a_gun_in_my_glove_box.3F)

Thing is, once it's permanently attached then it becomes the utility compartment.

mej16489
01-27-2010, 4:13 PM
I can't tell if that container fits inside the utility compartment or if it is the utility compartment (as in a replacement for the standard one). If it is the compartment, illegal. If it fits inside the utility compartment, legal. This is per the following exception to illegal concealed carry (12025) in 12026.1 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html):



See also in the FAQ: Can I keep a gun in my glove box? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_keep_a_gun_in_my_glove_box.3F)

It fits inside, it does not replace. Think of it as a center console liner which has a lock on it. The potentially gray area of concern comes when the 'liner' is mounted to the center console...does it then become the center console?!?

I have a degree in philosphy and I'm not touching that question with a 10 foot pole.

fd15k
01-27-2010, 4:18 PM
It fits inside, it does not replace. Think of it as a center console liner which has a lock on it. The potentially gray area of concern comes when the 'liner' is mounted to the center console...does it then become the center console?!?

I have a degree in philosphy and I'm not touching that question with a 10 foot pole.

Just ask yourself if it is a part of the vehicle, or just an item you've placed inside the vehicle (for transportation). Any container permanently attached becomes a part of the vehicle, and thus is a utility compartment.

wellerjohn
01-27-2010, 4:20 PM
Seem like it's a liner to me, that's inside the console. Even if your were popped for it by a jackass LEO, I can't see a HONEST DA prosecuting it. Maybe I am just naive.

mej16489
01-27-2010, 4:23 PM
Just ask yourself if it is a part of the vehicle, or just an item you've placed inside the vehicle (for transportation). Any container permanently attached becomes a part of the vehicle, and thus is a utility compartment.

I have asked myself. Ultimately its why I've decided at this time not to risk it so my in-car safe isn't permanently mounted.

Then again, I also don't unload when I store a CCW weapon in it....a divergant, but similar topic. I take the tags off my mattreses too :)

fd15k
01-27-2010, 4:24 PM
Seem like it's a liner to me, that's inside the console. Even if your were popped for it by a jackass LEO, I can't see a HONEST DA prosecuting it. Maybe I am just naive.

I asked 2 officers recently, one from SFPD, another from LAPD about placement of a locked container. They were convinced that even if you lock something in a container, it needs to be transported in the trunk of the vehicle.

Bottom line is - regardless of the letter of the law, keeping your stuff out of sight is the best idea.

Edit: and when I asked those two about placement of that container while riding a motorcycle, they got confused and said they'd have to run it by their Sgt's... :D

GrizzlyGuy
01-27-2010, 4:55 PM
I asked 2 officers recently, one from SFPD, another from LAPD about placement of a locked container. They were convinced that even if you lock something in a container, it needs to be transported in the trunk of the vehicle.

Bottom line is - regardless of the letter of the law, keeping your stuff out of sight is the best idea.

Edit: and when I asked those two about placement of that container while riding a motorcycle, they got confused and said they'd have to run it by their Sgt's... :D

They gave you bad info. The truth:

Does my gun need to be transported in my trunk? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Does_my_gun_need_to_be_transported_in_my_trunk .3F)

Can I transport the locked case in a backpack or a cargo container on a motorcycle? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_transport_the_locked_case_in_a_backpack_ or_a_cargo_container_on_a_motorcycle.3F)

fd15k
01-27-2010, 4:58 PM
They gave you bad info. The truth:

Does my gun need to be transported in my trunk? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Does_my_gun_need_to_be_transported_in_my_trunk .3F)

Can I transport the locked case in a backpack or a cargo container on a motorcycle? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_transport_the_locked_case_in_a_backpack_ or_a_cargo_container_on_a_motorcycle.3F)

I know that. I was just giving an example of how you knowing the law won't help you much during the encounter.

DedEye
01-27-2010, 7:34 PM
Seem like it's a liner to me, that's inside the console. Even if your were popped for it by a jackass LEO, I can't see a HONEST DA prosecuting it. Maybe I am just naive.

Probably.

They gave you bad info. The truth:

Does my gun need to be transported in my trunk? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Does_my_gun_need_to_be_transported_in_my_trunk .3F)

Can I transport the locked case in a backpack or a cargo container on a motorcycle? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_transport_the_locked_case_in_a_backpack_ or_a_cargo_container_on_a_motorcycle.3F)

I hate you for beating me to the punch of linking to the FAQ ;).

bodger
01-27-2010, 7:46 PM
Not that there is any, but does anyone understand the logic of what the difference is between locking an unloaded handgun in your center console, and putting a locked container in the center console?

And it doesn't surprise me that the LEOs didn't know the law about LUCC in the vehicle.

I recently had a brief conversation about UOC with the Senior Lead Officer of a division of the LAPD. He stated that a magazine filled with ammo concealed on one's person was not illegal.

fd15k
01-27-2010, 7:54 PM
Not that there is any, but does anyone understand the logic of what the difference is between locking an unloaded handgun in your center console, and putting a locked container in the center console?


I believe we went over that. What is your point ?

Librarian
01-27-2010, 8:00 PM
I recently had a brief conversation about UOC with the Senior Lead Officer of a division of the LAPD. He stated that a magazine filled with ammo concealed on one's person was not illegal.

If you have no firearm on you, that's obviously true - there's no rational way to claim a magazine is a gun (not that that would stop a malicious person from trying).

But if you do happen to have a firearm, presumably one that the magazine may fit, then that outlier case from 1974, People v Hale, seems to indicate a concealed magazine is the same as a concealed weapon.

I'd really like to see a superseding case that would establish that the judge in Hale didn't understand things correctly.

Uriah02
01-27-2010, 8:02 PM
I thought part of the locked container rules included it could not be in the passenger compartment of the car...

fd15k
01-27-2010, 8:07 PM
I thought part of the locked container rules included it could not be in the passenger compartment of the car...

Got a PC for that ?

tombinghamthegreat
01-27-2010, 8:24 PM
Instead of spending 300 dollars why not just get a 10 dollar backpack, a 5 dollar lock and put it under the seat with the mags/guns/ammo inside of it? Its legal, cheap and does not draw attention.

I thought part of the locked container rules included it could not be in the passenger compartment of the car...

FUD. It could be in your lap.

Mstrty
01-27-2010, 8:27 PM
Got a PC for that ?

I bet he doesnt. :D

fd15k
01-27-2010, 8:30 PM
Instead of spending 300 dollars why not just get a 10 dollar backpack, a 5 dollar lock and put it under the seat with the mags/guns/ammo inside of it? Its legal, cheap and does not draw attention.


Same problem like with many other things we discussed. Soft locked bag is legal, but many officers won't know that. They read (interpret) container literally, thus you would be much better off having a locked container INSIDE a backpack, under the seat ;)

DedEye
01-27-2010, 8:39 PM
I thought part of the locked container rules included it could not be in the passenger compartment of the car...

It is best not to offer "thoughts" on the penal code and the law when peoples have already provided a more authoritative answer.

Don't take it personally, but I hate you. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Does_my_gun_need_to_be_transported_in_my_trunk .3F)*

Same problem like with many other things we discussed. Soft locked bag is legal, but many officers won't know that. They read (interpret) container literally, thus you would be much better off having a locked container INSIDE a backpack, under the seat ;)

Fine, substitute a cheap hard case for the backpack and use the same $5 lock.







*Not really.

fd15k
01-27-2010, 8:43 PM
Fine, substitute a cheap hard case for the backpack and use the same $5 lock.


PC for $5 ? :D I say make it a $0.99 lock :43:

bodger
01-28-2010, 7:05 AM
I believe we went over that. What is your point ?


I understand that it was gone over and what the law is.

My question addresses whether or not there was ever any logic or reason stated or implied by legislators as to why locking a weapon in an interior console has been made illegal, but a weapon inside a locked container that is in the console is legal.

I'm asking because the absurdity of some of the CA laws regarding firearms defies logic, and I was wondering if there are any examples where one could read in black and white what the hell these lawmakers are using as reason.

It's easier to unlock the center console and get the gun than it is to open the unlocked center console, unlock the container and get the gun?

I'm pissing in the wind, right? There is no logic, just the law.

paul0660
01-28-2010, 7:18 AM
Thing is, once it's permanently attached then it becomes the utility compartment.

More FUD. There is only one THE utility compartment and it is that thing between the seats.

fd15k
01-28-2010, 7:23 AM
More FUD. There is only one THE utility compartment and it is that thing between the seats.

Please do share with us where "utility compartment" is defined in the law.

mattymatt
01-28-2010, 7:56 AM
I have the same locking compartment in my truck. I do use it to transport handguns, but I have them unloaded and locked in a container and then I lock the container inside the center compartment. I do it since I don't have a trunk and it keeps everything out of site.

Decoligny
01-28-2010, 9:33 AM
More FUD. There is only one THE utility compartment and it is that thing between the seats.

Gee, I seem to remember seeing vehicles that have a little drawer that slides out from under the seat. That is a utility compartment.

I also seem to remember seeing a pickup truck that had a compartment above the windshield that could easily hold a small gun. That was a utility compartment.

If it is a compartment, and it was designed for utilitarian purposes, then I believe that a DA could easily prosecute for a gun in any "utility compartment".

fd15k
01-28-2010, 10:14 AM
Gee, I seem to remember seeing vehicles that have a little drawer that slides out from under the seat. That is a utility compartment.

I also seem to remember seeing a pickup truck that had a compartment above the windshield that could easily hold a small gun. That was a utility compartment.

If it is a compartment, and it was designed for utilitarian purposes, then I believe that a DA could easily prosecute for a gun in any "utility compartment".

That's my point too. Any container that fully encloses something, and is part of the vehicle (permanently attached) can be seen as a utility compartment, unless it has a specific designation (like fuse box, or some kind of battery compartment, whatever). So unless PC defines "utility compartment" somewhere, DA will probably refer to a dictionary ;)

bohoki
01-28-2010, 11:56 AM
Thing is, once it's permanently attached then it becomes the utility compartment.

really quite lame so the gubmint is ok as long is it can be easily smash and grabbed?

fd15k
01-28-2010, 12:01 PM
really quite lame so the gubmint is ok as long is it can be easily smash and grabbed?

That's how it looks like... Some other officer told me "the intent" of the law is to render a weapon system non-readily available... so they don't really care if it gets stolen, as long as you can't have quick access to it. They made a mistake though, since they haven't put the container placement wording in the PC.

paul0660
01-28-2010, 12:02 PM
If they meant A utility compartment they would not have said THE.

The idea that a bolted box is illegal (for instance in the cargo area of a SUV vs. the same box being cabled (and carried on your lap) being legal is ridiculous, but that is what some are intent on believing.

fd15k
01-28-2010, 12:11 PM
If they meant A utility compartment they would not have said THE.

The idea that a bolted box is illegal (for instance in the cargo area of a SUV vs. the same box being cabled (and carried on your lap) being legal is ridiculous, but that is what some are intent on believing.

Yeah, let's hope the DA you're going to get had a minor in English :D

paul0660
01-28-2010, 12:28 PM
Yeah, let's hope the DA you're going to get had a minor in English

That is ALWAYS the case!

fd15k
01-28-2010, 12:30 PM
That is ALWAYS the case!

Good for you then :D

Deamer
01-28-2010, 5:42 PM
So the Titan gun vault is designed/advertised to be mounted in your vehicle. From what I am reading here is that if you bolt it to the vehicle it becomes a "utility compartment" and thus illegal.

The DOJ lists the Titan Gun vault on their "Approved" safe list. Could that help you out if the DA did try to prosecute you for a so called "utility compartment"?

http://safetydevice.doj.ca.gov/dsearch2.asp?select=model

To me that says the DOJ says I can use it for its intented purpose.

fd15k
01-28-2010, 5:49 PM
So the Titan gun vault is designed/advertised to be mounted in your vehicle. From what I am reading here is that if you bolt it to the vehicle it becomes a "utility compartment" and thus illegal.

The DOJ lists the Titan Gun vault on their "Approved" safe list. Could that help you out if the DA did try to prosecute you for a so called "utility compartment"?

http://safetydevice.doj.ca.gov/dsearch2.asp?select=model

To me that says the DOJ says I can use it for its intented purpose.

Based on the video on their website that gun vault is not permanently attached ;) It has a permanently attached mount, but the vault itself locks onto the mount and can be quickly removed.

Deamer
01-28-2010, 6:03 PM
Based on the video on their website that gun vault is not permanently attached ;) It has a permanently attached mount, but the vault itself locks onto the mount and can be quickly removed.

So by that logic I can get a cheapo locking gun box, drill a couple holes through the vehicle floor, mount studs up through the floor and then drill matching holes throught the gun box. Slip the box over the studs and secure with a cotter pin or wingnut inside the box and be good to go.

fd15k
01-28-2010, 6:55 PM
So by that logic I can get a cheapo locking gun box, drill a couple holes through the vehicle floor, mount studs up through the floor and then drill matching holes throught the gun box. Slip the box over the studs and secure with a cotter pin or wingnut inside the box and be good to go.

Sounds good to me. But I'm not a DA :D

MP301
01-28-2010, 8:18 PM
Thing is, once it's permanently attached then it becomes the utility compartment.

I dont agree. I think the "Glove" and "Utility" carpartment are one in the same. That little compartment on the right side of the dash. I think the reason they added the "Utility" name as well was because "Glove" compartment is way old terminology and its meaningless to many. Utility is what many refer to as the "Glove" compartment.

Could some LE say that the center console IS the "Utility" compartment? Sure, just like he can say your BB equipped rifle is an AW. Doesnt make it so, does it? I didnt see anything about a "Center Console" , or the storage area under the back seats of many SUV's in that statute and I call my "Glove" compartment a "Utility" compartment, which is what it is. I dont put "Gloves" in it?

I find it hard to think that if I mount a safe, gun or otherwise, in my vehicle between my front seats...or anywhere else for that matter, it magically becomes a "Utility" compartment under that statue. And what if I have 6 of them in my vehicle? Which ones re safes and which ones are "Utility" compartments? One? All of them? None?

Maybe you could even stretch "utility" compartment to any compartment that comes stock from the factory if you want, but I dont see how something you add can do this.

Just my opinion and im not a lawyer....

And the one in the link is cool, but If your going to pay that much, I like the features in this one much better... Are you going to tell that this is going to be reclassified as a "Utility" compartment under CA law?

http://www.titangunvault.com/