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View Full Version : LOC on your property during a garage sale?


Steyr_223
01-27-2010, 3:28 PM
LOC is legal on your property but how far does that extend?

Garage only?
Driveway?
Sidewalk in front of house?
Street in front of house..

How far can I go LOC?

TIA

wildhawker
01-27-2010, 3:29 PM
Are you in a school zone?

loather
01-27-2010, 3:45 PM
If you're having a garage sale I'd not chance it at all as by definition your yard/garage/etc. is open to the public. To be quite honest, I'm not sure which would take precedence: the public place stipulation or in-home loaded carry provision ...

If you're in a school zone I definitely wouldn't. If you're not, it's decidedly more of a grey area, but I still wouldn't chance it.

The Director
01-27-2010, 3:46 PM
Not sure which is a bigger breach of OPSEC. having a garage sale or open carrying during one and making sure dozens of complete strangers know you possess firearms and where you live.

Nose Nuggets
01-27-2010, 3:50 PM
cant you legally conceal carry in your own home?

IrishPirate
01-27-2010, 3:52 PM
Could get caught up in a world of sh*t like Theseus did. Be very careful. It's better to have the gun just inside the house, or in a closed container where the "public" can't get to it (i suggest the same place as the money box). to be used "in case".

B Strong
01-27-2010, 3:57 PM
Many problems with the situation, as noted by the other posters, and the biggest question for me is if you're legitimately concerned about the security in your area, why would you even have a garage sale?

M1A Rifleman
01-27-2010, 3:57 PM
Since you can legally carry concealed on your own property - assume a typical residential home here, that would always be better than walking around with a gun on your side.

GrizzlyGuy
01-27-2010, 4:00 PM
If your garage sale is open to the public, then your garage and land that the public would walk across to get to your garage (e.g., driveway) are all public places. If you live in incorporated territory, you cannot carry loaded in any of those places. Inside your house would be OK unless you are opening it up to the general public as well.

If you live in unincorporated territory, and firearm discharge is not prohibited where you live (e.g., by a county ordinance) then you can LOC anywhere, including on the public street.

This is all per 12031 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html):

(a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

Liberty1
01-27-2010, 4:05 PM
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California

read ALL of that link and

Recent cases
A recent case, People v. Strider begins to set some limitations. Strider's decision says

"A fenced front yard is not a public place for purposes of Penal Code
Sec. 12031ís prohibition on carrying a loaded firearm in a public
place; thus, officer who saw defendant with a firearm in such a yard
could not have reasonably suspected defendant unlawfully had a firearm
in a public place, and trial court erred in denying defendantís
pretrial suppression motion."

kf6tac
01-27-2010, 4:50 PM
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California

read ALL of that link and

Recent cases
A recent case, People v. Strider begins to set some limitations. Strider's decision says

"A fenced front yard is not a public place for purposes of Penal Code
Sec. 12031ís prohibition on carrying a loaded firearm in a public
place; thus, officer who saw defendant with a firearm in such a yard
could not have reasonably suspected defendant unlawfully had a firearm
in a public place, and trial court erred in denying defendantís
pretrial suppression motion."

I wouldn't rely much on Strider here, as the facts are possibly distinguishable on at least two points:
A) Strider's front yard was fenced. It's not clear if the OP's is.
B) Strider was not inviting the public into his yard, which the OP would be doing by holding a garage/yard sale.

GrizzlyGuy
01-27-2010, 4:59 PM
B) Strider was not inviting the public into his yard, which the OP would be doing by holding a garage/yard sale.

Yes, that's the key distinction here. OP is transforming his usually-private garage into what is essentially a temporary retail business that IS open to the general public. Even if the garage/driveway/walkway isn't usually a public place (due to fences, gates or whatever), it would be for the duration of the garage sale.

audiophil2
01-27-2010, 5:08 PM
I would CCW and stay in the garage. It's not like you can use your gun anyway unless you or someone else is in immediate life threatening danger. Your old tennis rackets can be stolen and there is not much you can do about it with a gun. Keep your register in the garage with you.

Cokebottle
01-27-2010, 6:43 PM
Yes, that's the key distinction here. OP is transforming his usually-private garage into what is essentially a temporary retail business that IS open to the general public.
But, as the property owner, and the "business" owner, even though it is a public place, it would normally be acceptable to LOC or CCW.

The only issue is whether the only "public place" issue triggers a possible 626.9 violation, which it SHOULD not, because 626.9 specifically exempts "private property" and does not specifically include "public place"... but ya, ask Theseus how that worked out for him.

Honestly, I would legally CCW on my own property. Keeps every stranger at the garage sale from knowing that I own guns.

Cokebottle
01-27-2010, 6:48 PM
Concealed well (on your person) and stay in the garage.

You can live in the nicest of neighborhoods and once you put up the "garage sale" sign you open the floodgates to the dregs of humanity, looking for 25 cent bargains. In our last garage sale in San Diego last April (the one where we sold everything we owned so that we didn't have to rent a truck for the move back to Texas) we had people show up and actually steal stuff marked $1.
+1

"Smart" garage sale shoppers don't shop in their own neighborhood.
Why do I want the crap that others in my socioeconomic class don't want?
You hit up the garage sales in the "nice" neighborhoods.
I used to know a guy who had a house full of really nice stuff that there's no way either of us could afford... he spent his days off scavenging Pasadena, San Marino, Beverly Hills, etc....
He picked up a practically new VersaClimber (the gym quality unit, not the $200 sporting goods store unit) for $50. He found a set of 15x8 Vette Rally wheels with caps and trim rings... called me (on the CB) and asked if I wanted them for $40 for my Chevelle.

ELBong
01-27-2010, 6:50 PM
There are exceptions to the Gun Free School Zone Act:

626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person
knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in
paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written
permission of the school district superintendent, his or her
designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as
specified in subdivision (f).
(c) Subdivision (b) shall not apply to the possession of a firearm
under any of the following circumstances:
(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private
property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private
property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the
firearm is otherwise lawful.

If you are having a garage sale, you are conducting the business of selling used merchandise and you place of business is your garage. However, a court of law may not see it the same way I do. It is also your place of residence and private property. The law does say "private property" and not "private property accessible to the public".

Cokebottle
01-27-2010, 6:55 PM
The law does say "private property" and not "private property accessible to the public".
This is very very true.

However, Theseus is now a prohibited person because the DA, judge, and jury did not see it that way.

Hopefully, he is successful on appeal.


But we have two separate issues here.
626.9 would apply whether the gun is being carried loaded or unloaded, concealed or open.

Adding to the 626.9 issue would be the legality of carrying loaded (and either concealed or open) while in your front yard while that yard is temporarily being used as a business.

Python2
01-27-2010, 7:26 PM
LOC is legal on your property but how far does that extend?

Garage only?
Driveway?
Sidewalk in front of house?
Street in front of house..

How far can I go LOC?

TIA

Why would you want to LOC on your own property, when you can concealed carry?

GrizzlyGuy
01-27-2010, 8:16 PM
But, as the property owner, and the "business" owner, even though it is a public place, it would normally be acceptable to LOC or CCW.

Not really, at least not for LOC. The loaded exemptions in 12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html) for home & business are these:


(h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in
any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any
officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful
purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm
within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful
possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that
property.

(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.


LOC involves carrying instead of having, and People v. Overturf says those are different things. See also this section (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Unlicensed_Concealed_Carry#Semi_Public_Places_Rest rictions) of Gene's Unlicensed Concealed Carry article.


The only issue is whether the only "public place" issue triggers a possible 626.9 violation, which it SHOULD not, because 626.9 specifically exempts "private property" and does not specifically include "public place"... but ya, ask Theseus how that worked out for him.


Yup, private property should be a 100%, you-can-count-on-it, rock-solid exemption from 626.9... but Theseus's persecution casts significant doubt on that. :rolleyes:


Honestly, I would legally CCW on my own property. Keeps every stranger at the garage sale from knowing that I own guns.

In this case, you'd need a permit if you wanted to CCW while loaded. You can carry concealed anywhere on your property, but loaded is still per 12031, as above. From Gene's article:

As long as someone is at home or work and not in areas that may be deemed public, then one can carry a loaded firearm.

Steyr_223
01-27-2010, 9:01 PM
Thanks! Great responses...

School? No school within 1/2 mile.

Why garage sale? Had them before no issues, plus we need the extra $ and extra room in the garage.

I know I can CC on my property as well. My only holsters are for OC. I OC in my garage area when I have it open working on projects, cleaning guns or unpacking ammo.

Questions are just for education..

Python2
01-28-2010, 6:22 AM
.... My only holsters are for OC. ..

Umnnn....I did'nt know there is such a thing.

Decoligny
01-28-2010, 7:01 AM
Umnnn....I did'nt know there is such a thing.


There are lots of non-concealable holsters.

http://www.securityandsafetysupply.com/media/duty_gear_images/Thum-Lever-Holsters.jpg

http://www.gunfighter.com/trailrider/tr_cheyenne.jpg

http://shadowspear.com/reviewimages/serpa1.jpg

MudCamper
01-28-2010, 7:51 AM
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California

read ALL of that link and

Side note: the People v Strider link in the Wiki page is broken.

Python2
01-28-2010, 8:00 AM
There are lots of non-concealable holsters.

http://www.securityandsafetysupply.com/media/duty_gear_images/Thum-Lever-Holsters.jpg

http://www.gunfighter.com/trailrider/tr_cheyenne.jpg

http://shadowspear.com/reviewimages/serpa1.jpg

All of the above are concealable by using shirt, jacket or trench coat.
On the other hand an IWB can be open carry if not covered by a shirt.

Steyr_223
01-28-2010, 10:02 AM
I should get a CC holster..I was in Oregon last support and went to a few garage sales..Saw multiple folks doing the LOC. Was nice.

GrizzlyGuy
01-28-2010, 10:22 AM
Side note: the People v Strider link in the Wiki page is broken.

Try it now, I just fixed it. :)

Skidmark
02-16-2010, 5:57 PM
Just the thread I was looking for. I like the idea of keeping the register "inside" the house and having the person protecting the cash contents of that register carrying a loaded firearm.

N6ATF
02-16-2010, 11:31 PM
Just the thread I was looking for. I like the idea of keeping the register "inside" the house and having the person protecting the cash contents of that register carrying a loaded firearm.

I wonder how much it would cost to make a home version of those pneumatic tube things like they have at drive-thru banks and Costco.

Wild Squid
02-17-2010, 12:22 AM
Concealed well (on your person) and stay in the garage.

You can live in the nicest of neighborhoods and once you put up the "garage sale" sign you open the floodgates to the dregs of humanity, looking for 25 cent bargains. In our last garage sale in San Diego last April (the one where we sold everything we owned so that we didn't have to rent a truck for the move back to Texas) we had people show up and actually steal stuff marked $1.


Man that really sucks, stealing $1 stuff. I would have popped a nerve

Rob454
02-17-2010, 3:59 AM
Put the gun on a shelf somewhere near the garage where you can get to it then have a garage sale. Jesus its a garage sale not invasion of the body snatchers. Ive never had one problem at a garage sale. Pretty much everythign that did not sell I load up and it goes to the good will.

N6ATF
02-17-2010, 3:24 PM
A friend of my mom's had a counterfeit $100 passed at her sale. And she broke change for it. OOPS!

ace_31
02-17-2010, 7:49 PM
All thanks to me, so do I get like a trophy or something or maybe a...CCW?