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View Full Version : building legal AR-like rifles: use moly lube !!!


bwiese
01-05-2006, 1:58 PM
Some folks here that are building, or have built up their off-list lowers into legal 10rd fixed mag rifles may have skipped an important step. It's not always mentioned in assembly manuals, nor was it shown in the Bushmaster video in the late 1990s.

Please use molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) antiseize lube when assembling the threaded components on your rifle. (DO NOT USE GRAPHITE LUBE: IT IS CORROSIVE TO ALUMINUM AND ITS ALLOYS.)

Over years of time + heat, threaded components can seize, 'lock up', etc. to where they may not be readily removable, and/or the lower could be damaged. Given that AR-type lowers are as valuable as gold, AND WILL LIKELY NEVER AGAIN BE OBTAINABLE IN CALIFORNIA, treat your lower well.

This includes the "buffer tube" (really called the 'receiver extension') and its mating rear receiver ring, and any barrel threads + mating threads on brakes or flash hiders. If you are mounting a barrel to the upper, use some moly lube on the barrel nut and its mating threads on the upper receiver. It also might help to put a smidgen on the barrel extension and inside the front mouth of the upper receiver where the bbl extension fits.

A little dab'll dooya. You can get tubes of this from Bushmaster, etc. The brand I use is NECO (from Benecia, CA).

It's also great lube for hammer and trigger pins and lets the action run a tad more smoothly. And it doesn't dry out ;)

mblat
01-05-2006, 2:07 PM
Thank you for advise, me being a novice in whole AR15 thing would definetly overlook that!

But as far as never be able to get them in PRK? That would imply that DOJ will put EVERY available receiver on the list ( and I got couple of very low profile onces , not Stag, not Fulton, not Deer, not DSA )
It also implyes that there will never be NEW lower receiver manufacturer.
Or that there will be some change in the law, allowing DOJ to say - ALL AR15 lower receivers?

Sgt Raven
01-05-2006, 2:18 PM
Bill for sparkplugs etc. I use anti-seize lube by permatex. Is this the same stuff? I know I could go dig the bottle out.

bwiese
01-05-2006, 2:38 PM
But as far as never be able to get them in PRK? That would imply that DOJ will put EVERY available receiver on the list (and I got couple of very low profile onces, not Stag, not Fulton, not Deer, not DSA)

I believe the DOJ this time around will do a pretty good "first cut". They might miss one or two of the oddballs, but with a few back issues of Shotgun News, GunList, and browsing the boards on AR15.COM they'll get most.

It also implyes that there will never be NEW lower receiver manufacturer.

Or new model names from a given manufacturer, which would also be allowed under Harrott.

But I think for the next several months expect the DOJ to assiduously monitor the AR, AK market and add the receivers it can find. They're making up for an embarassing 5-year gap in not updating the Kasler list/Roster and will likely be very diligent this time around.

Or that there will be some change in the law, allowing DOJ to say - ALL AR15 lower receivers?

Yes, some new legislation may well occur this year. My conversation with a very knowledgable lawyer indicated that even more tightening down of AWs was possible.

They can't just ban all AR15s because of Harrott decision. But what they can do is something like this: say that any new receivers that get identified or declared as AWs can't get evil features added to them - or, even worse, not be built up into working rifles at all.

bwiese
01-05-2006, 2:38 PM
Why does that phrase sound so familiar?

Can swear that I saw it somewhere besides calguns recently;)

Preparation H ad? ;)

Sgt Raven
01-05-2006, 2:40 PM
I believe the stuff you use for sparkplugs is conductive and that it works since the sparkplug and engine head are similar metals.

The problems with AR's arise because the receiver is aluminum and the barrel extension (and barrel) are steel.

I use this stuff for steel sparkplugs in aluminum heads so I don't pull the threads out when changing them.

From their web site.

Permatex« Anti-Seize Lubricant
A heavy duty blend of aluminum, copper and graphite lubricants in a petroleum base. Use during assembly to prevent galling, corrosion and seizing and to assure easier disassembly. Inert, will not evaporate or harden in extreme temperatures. Salt, corrosion and moisture resistant. Temperature range -60║F to 1600║F (-51░C to 871░C). Non-aerosol version meets Mil Spec A-907. Level 3**

Paradiddle
01-05-2006, 3:19 PM
I use antiseize on every bolt I touch on my Jeep.

I think the moly grease is a different animal though. They will probably both work.

Jeff

bwiese
01-05-2006, 3:28 PM
I use this stuff for steel sparkplugs in aluminum heads so I don't pull the threads out when changing them.

From their web site.

Permatex« Anti-Seize Lubricant
A heavy duty blend of aluminum, copper and graphite lubricants in a petroleum base. Use during assembly to prevent galling, corrosion and seizing and to assure easier disassembly. Inert, will not evaporate or harden in extreme temperatures. Salt, corrosion and moisture resistant. Temperature range -60║F to 1600║F (-51░C to 871░C). Non-aerosol version meets Mil Spec A-907. Level 3**

Just stay away from it. It says it has graphite. I believe the DoD M16 tech/repair manual warns specifically about graphite lubricants.

One small $5 tube of moly lube will last you for years and years.

bwiese
01-05-2006, 3:41 PM
i was thinking of a recent post to AR15-L regarding anti-seize lubes...

Hmm. Didn't see it. Been cruising by their Calif. homepage seeing how much misinformation about off-list lowers has been dispensed...

TonyM
01-05-2006, 3:59 PM
Hmm. Didn't see it. Been cruising by their Calif. homepage seeing how much misinformation about off-list lowers has been dispensed...

Oh, So you've been busy then. ;)

delloro
01-05-2006, 4:42 PM
graphite assembly lube will not cause corrosion. the corrosion requires an electrolytic cell, which the petroleum fraction would ruin.

if anti-seize is all you have use it, otherwise I use engine assembly lube as I always have some of that around.

-hanko
01-05-2006, 7:16 PM
Bill for sparkplugs etc. I use anti-seize lube by permatex. Is this the same stuff? I know I could go dig the bottle out.
Not the same, whether nickel or copper Never-Seez. Correct me if I'm wrong, but military tm's recommend lithium grease for barrel installation. Moly does a nice job on bearing surfaces, especially the hammer/sear/trigger interfaces. I use Moly-Slide.

-hanko

Gnote
01-05-2006, 9:47 PM
This is good to know. Are their any other land minds we should avoid?

bwiese
01-05-2006, 11:43 PM
This is good to know. Are their any other land minds we should avoid?

Besides what Ted just said, also watch out for accidentally exchanging disconnector spring for bolt catch spring as they're close to same size and the rifle may even kinda-sorta work.

Oh, always remember to have the bolt cam pin installed on your bolt before you fire your rifle. It can really help keep your face from being cut up ;)

Use care when installing the triggerguard roll pin. The 'ears' on the receiver can break off, so support them when tapping the pin in. Chamfer the edges of the roll pin a bit w/file or stone so they get a good start.

Cover the receiver in masking or strapping tape when installing the bolt catch and its roll pin so you don't scar things up.

TonyM
01-06-2006, 5:55 AM
For my last couple builts I used some channel lock type pliers to install the trigger guard and bolt catch roll pins as shown on a thread on ar15.com in the Build it yourself forum.

Tape up the receiver to protect the finish, I even taped up the pliers to be sure not to tear the tape and scratch the recievers. Works great, like a press. Using the punches for those in the past was more of a PITA.

glock_this
01-06-2006, 7:25 AM
Please use molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) antiseize lube when assembling the threaded components on your rifle. (DO NOT USE GRAPHITE LUBE: IT IS CORROSIVE TO ALUMINUM AND ITS ALLOYS.

I have a good buddy in the military that has about 5 AR-15's and has taught me a ton and he said just use truck engine oil (e.g., SAE 10w-40)

glock_this
01-06-2006, 11:09 AM
OK folks, the kindler, gentler, Technical Ted of the last couple of months is going to take his gloves off for a moment.

glock_this, for some reason I think you believe this discussion is about general lubrication.

Considering the difference between fixed mag Vulcan CA Legal lowers and actual stripped unlisted lowers flew 2,000 ft over your head for nearly a whole month doesn't give you much credibility in my eyes. You joined this board just over a month ago and admitted that you knew nothing about AR15's, let alone rifles. I will take any "knowledge" you impart on this subject with a huge grain of salt.

Dude, totally unecessary to jabe me like that. I may not be as versed or intelligent as you are on these topics, BUT I also did NOT claim that that was my view or opinion. I was just adding a piece of knowledge I was told and made that clear. Sorry if it was in the wrong context. My bad, but all over these forums people talk about what they have learned, what they have been told, who they know, what they read, what they researched, the rumors they were told, the advice they were given. I have even taken yours based on your experience.

This being true, I ask you: why is what you say any more gospel than a guy I know who has a rifle/military history as well as you? You both have history, opinions, experience, etc. - but yours is no more proven and gospel than his. You are right, "Just because someone's in the military doesn't mean they are an expert with weapons" and that fact does not make him right. Similarly, just becuase one may have a zillion posts and may have years on a board does not make one right. The logic works both ways.

Second, who cares when I signed up and started posting? That is the mentality I hate about forums. The guys with the long years, tons of posts, invariably make you feel bad about your lack-thereof. REMEMBER - you started at 0 posts and 1 month of posting just like I did!! that is what this forum is for and I have as much right to be here as anyone else. you have taken enough time to check up on me, now take the time to see I try to give/offer as much as I take and I have NEVER made claims as though I am anything other than new to rifles and to the specific rifle of interest to me, the AR15. Thus, I have never sought the 'credability' you don't give me as I cannot make such a claim as I am learning.

Lastly, I can make no defense of dumb people as the one you mentoined in your post - but using it in the post makes an unnecessary point directed towards me that was not cool. Smart people in smart fileds have made errors in judegement before - and I am sure you have done the same in your life as we all have and as he did.

So, rather than Hijack this thread anymore, PM me if you want to hash this out as I may be new, but I am not scared of you :)

capitol
01-06-2006, 1:11 PM
OK folks, the kindler, gentler, Technical Ted of the last couple of months is going to take his gloves off for a moment.


I like Terrible Technical Ted. It makes it easier to seperate him from all the other Teds on this board :D :p

Gunner1
01-06-2006, 1:53 PM
Nice, Ted's back!!! It's been a while since we got Ted Riled up!!!!
I was beginning to think he had turned soft:eek: This is a great forum and for the most part everyone gets along better than I have ever seen on an internet forum.
As for the lube question, As a gunsmithing student at Lassen College we were taught to use grease to assemble AR rifles. In my recent LE Armorours class the instructor seemed to be fond of Tetra Gun Grease. I have been using it for quite a few years with no problems.

Now everyone play nice here, we need to save our energy to fight off the invasion of the Gun grabbing Democrats............

Gunner

BigAL
01-06-2006, 2:48 PM
I use the same grease Bill recommends (the stuff Bushy sells) and havent had any probs when changing out barrels. But I never used it when screwing a buffer tube into the lower. I can see how this might be a good idea especially if you are talking about something is non-replaceable. I recommend wearing gloves and just applying a dab with your finger and smearing it on the threads as this stuff is hard to wash off and will ruin clothes like most heavy anti-seize compounds.

glock_this
01-06-2006, 6:40 PM
since we settled our diferences, I guess we won't be meeting behind the school to duke it out (which saves me from hurting my trigger finger). ;)

DrjonesUSA
01-11-2006, 2:55 PM
Bump for this important fact.

NRAhighpowershooter
01-11-2006, 3:12 PM
I use white lithium grease on the buffer tube threads and barrel threads when doing barreling....

DrjonesUSA
01-20-2006, 10:30 AM
Do you have to use an antiseize compound, or will a weapons-grade grease work?

DrjonesUSA
01-20-2006, 1:06 PM
At the least, use an anti-seize compound without graphite. Weapon's grade is meant for lubrication of moving parts. For the areas of the AR where grease is used do not move and the grease is meant to prevent galvanic corrosion and binding.

FWIW the lithium in lithium grease is primarily a thickener. Look at the compositon and you'll find that many lithium greases contain Molybdenum Disulfide as well. Should be ok.


Forget it. It's not worth it.

I was trying to save a trip to the hardware store, but I'll just go and get the right stuff for the job.

Thanks!

HK_Fan
01-20-2006, 2:05 PM
Once I was at Moffet Field golf course snack bar having lunch one day last year. An Air Force Security sergeant walked into the snack decked out in his camos with his black beret smartly placed on his head and a brand new FN M16A2 hanging over his shoulder WITH a magazine in the well.






Ted.. our Beret's are Blue :) thanks

Rob

HK_Fan
01-20-2006, 2:09 PM
Ooops! It was kinda dim lighting (You know the "are these socks black or dark blue" conundrum). I know he wasn't a PJ.

In my defense I was more concerned about where the muzzle was pointing!

As you should have been!!! Sounds like a real Knuckle Head... especially being an NCO..

Rob

Josh
01-20-2006, 2:14 PM
I am going to clear up a bit of misinformation right now.

As long as you use a true anti seize there is NO problem in using it on AL or any type of dissimilar metals where galvanic corrosion is an issue as long as you are using it to assemble parts and NOT as a lubricant (its a crappy lube anyways)

Anti seize does contain graphite, but it does not matter, it has been used for decades on aluminum parts and it works fine. Also it contains more then just graphite. Kinda like if you eat just plain chloride you will die, but salt which is Sodium Chloride is safe to consume.

Anti size will sacrafice the metals contained within it to protect the parts its coated in from any galvanic action.

The problem with graphite and AL is that the graphite acts as a cathode speeding up the corrosion process, the graphite is not itself corrosive to the metal. The process happens no matter what as long as the two metals are in contact with each other.

Here is another thing, the hard anodizing and coatings on your aluminum receivers is an excellent barrier against galvanic corrosion. However it does wear through, but for just assembly that is a non issue.

Jon
02-19-2006, 6:47 PM
Bumping this to the top again. . .is the Tetra Gun Grease okay? I checked it out and it was labeled fluoropolymer. I'm assuming this is Teflon.

LOW2000
02-19-2006, 8:20 PM
In case it hasn't been covered, Moly lube is usually labeled "Engine Assembly Lube" at the auto parts store.

ligamentum flavum
02-20-2006, 5:37 PM
is brownells action lube plus okay? does it contain graphite?

i can't find an ingredients list or an MSDS for it, so I'm not exactly sure about its contents. i just says it contains mineral oil and is listed under the moly-lube section of the brownell's website.

thanks in advance.

DrjonesUSA
02-21-2006, 11:28 AM
I asked on another forum if it is necessary to use anti-seize and everyone said you only need it when attaching a barrel to an upper, NOT for attaching the stock buffer tube to the lower.

elmo
02-21-2006, 12:03 PM
In case it hasn't been covered, Moly lube is usually labeled "Engine Assembly Lube" at the auto parts store.

that's what i've been using. If it's good to go into my aluminum engine....... haha

xenophobe
02-21-2006, 1:20 PM
Wow... all this talk about using lubricants with the M16 platform make me laugh a little.

When you're installing buffer tubes and barrel nuts, sure, something to keep the threads from siezing is not a bad idea. These are generally torqued down and a little grease will help in their removal, if you ever plan on doing that.

If molybdenum disulfide is not available, a standard grease will work just fine. I use a little dab of RIG... Great stuff.

bwiese
02-21-2006, 2:51 PM
I asked on another forum if it is necessary to use anti-seize and everyone said you only need it when attaching a barrel to an upper, NOT for attaching the stock buffer tube to the lower.

It may or may not be "necessary". But the ability to change your lower's configuration may be nice, and you wanna be careful with it as it's politically irrreplaceable - esp after declared & reg'd as an AW.

Ken4
02-21-2006, 8:23 PM
I read somewhere to use loctite on the threads when installing the buffer tube. That is really different than using moly-lube on the threads of the buffer tube. So what is the correct way of installing the buffer tube? :eek:

LOW2000
02-21-2006, 9:04 PM
I read somewhere to use loctite on the threads when installing the buffer tube. That is really different than using moly-lube on the threads of the buffer tube. So what is the correct way of installing the buffer tube? :eek:

The loctite is for the castle nut that secures the buffer tube, not for where the tube screws into the receiver.

slo5oh
02-22-2006, 7:20 PM
that's what i've been using. If it's good to go into my aluminum engine....... haha

I haven't been her long, but I'm more likely to believe what Bill Weise has to say about most subjects... That said, I too have used redline synthetic engine assembly lube and have at least 2 very expensive tubs of it in my toolbox and I will be checking the label to see if it is in fact "molly lube". :)

BigAL
02-22-2006, 7:45 PM
On an interesting note I just purchased some MoS2 based grease for a roller mechanism inside an oven in my lab. This stuff is rated up to 800 degC, and they make another one rated to 1200 degC. That's pretty damn hot.

slo5oh
02-22-2006, 7:55 PM
I have a good buddy in the military that has about 5 AR-15's and has taught me a ton and he said just use truck engine oil (e.g., SAE 10w-40)

Glock_this,
Not to start the fight back up, but anyone that has half a clue about engine oils will never use a 10-40wt oil (other than synthetic). 10-40 is just 10-30 with extra garbage put in to make it span such a wide range. If you have to stick with dino oil you should stay with 10-30 or if you need something thicker jump to 20-50.
It's not directly related, but your "good buddy in the miltary" line brought back a disgusting memory. A girl I know tells me about this really cool new boyfriend she's got, tells me he's a former marine, went to Afghanistan, etc. etc. etc. She wants me to come over and meet him because she thinks we'll become good friends and should go shooting together sometime. So head over thinking he's going to be ok. My initial impulse on meeting him is that he's a little full of himself, not too bright but otherwise seems ok. That changed real quick as he starts telling me about his time "over there". So after I ask what his position was he tells me that it was his job to burn the $h!t. This caught me off guard... I didn't realize, but yea... I guess there needs to be a guy to do all the "not so popular" jobs in our military. Still talking to him about his days served he tells me that the M16s are crappy rifles (his cool rating just dropped to dumb), then he starts talking about how his stupid rifle got jammed in the first couple weeks of being there (dumb went to real dumb) and he never got it fixed (real dumb droped to very dumb) and how he was only really worried that he might get caught because when they line up in formation he's suppose to empty and open his chamber but since his was stuck he just "played" like he was doing it (very dumb drops to dumb as dirt). At this point I had all but quit talking to him, just sort of smiled and nodded in shock the way I do when an old man I respect tells me about how global warming is going to kill us all. I just sat looking at him and wonding if he was really a Marine or just some numnut pretending so he would seem cool. The girl kept talking (you know how girls never shutup) and I finally had to leave after he made a comment about how the little bullets an m16 fire are nothing and he might as well have been shooting a BB gun at the enemies anyhow.
Thinking back on it now, the moron must have been some jerk pretending to have served because there's no way a marine could be that stupid.

sorry so long

Demented_Mind
02-23-2006, 12:10 PM
So after I ask what his position was he tells me that it was his job to burn the $h!t. This caught me off guard... I didn't realize, but yea... I guess there needs to be a guy to do all the "not so popular" jobs in our military.

Normally reserved for the "not too bright" individuals, or the "f*** ups". I know because I have personally put certain individuals on these duties before.


Still talking to him about his days served he tells me that the M16s are crappy rifles (his cool rating just dropped to dumb), then he starts talking about how his stupid rifle got jammed in the first couple weeks of being there (dumb went to real dumb) and he never got it fixed (real dumb droped to very dumb) and how he was only really worried that he might get caught because when they line up in formation he's suppose to empty and open his chamber but since his was stuck he just "played" like he was doing it (very dumb drops to dumb as dirt)......Thinking back on it now, the moron must have been some jerk pretending to have served because there's no way a marine could be that stupid.



There are a few individuals that I have met in the Corps that could have fit that bill. Although it pains me to say, not everyone in the Marine Corps is "up to standards" so to say. Sorry you had to suffer the company of that guy and luckily he is back here in the States, who know how many people that guy could have gotten killed if he was still over there.

hiyabrad
02-23-2006, 5:09 PM
I am sorry to write this here, but I want to subscribe to this thread. Can someone tell me where the "subscribe to this thread" button is located on these pages? I cannot find it.

Thanks in advance and sorry for this post.

Jon
02-23-2006, 5:43 PM
Near the top of the page, on the right-hand side, there is a drop-down menu called, "Thread Tools." Click on this and then click on "Subscribe to this thread."

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