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pullnshoot25
01-25-2010, 7:42 PM
IIRC, one cannot ship C&R long guns to someone unless that someone is the owner of the firearm or an FFL of some sort. However, a member here seems to think otherwise. I just want to make sure everything is kept legal.

Link to the post in dispute.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3700063&postcount=13

Correct me if I am wrong.

Turo
01-25-2010, 7:46 PM
IIRC, one cannot ship C&R long guns to someone unless that someone is the owner of the firearm or an FFL of some sort. However, a member here seems to think otherwise. I just want to make sure everything is kept legal.

Link to the post in dispute.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3700063&postcount=13

Correct me if I am wrong.

I've bought I know someone who has bought a C&R long gun and get it shipped straight to them. AFAIK, it's legal.

pullnshoot25
01-25-2010, 7:47 PM
I've bought I know someone who has bought a C&R long gun and get it shipped straight to them. AFAIK, it's legal.

He had a C&R FFL, right? That's the only way I know it to be legal. Unless the gun was made prior to 1900 or something...

Ross
01-25-2010, 7:49 PM
CMP mails them direct to your door. YOu also don't need to go through an FFL to sell one so why would you need to use an FFL when mailing one?

Meplat
01-25-2010, 8:02 PM
I have shiped C&R long guns to C&R FFL but only after receipt of a copy of his FFL.
IIRC, one cannot ship C&R long guns to someone unless that someone is the owner of the firearm or an FFL of some sort. However, a member here seems to think otherwise. I just want to make sure everything is kept legal.

Link to the post in dispute.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3700063&postcount=13

Correct me if I am wrong.

Serpentine
01-25-2010, 8:04 PM
You must ship a C&R long gun to a 03FFL (C&R), or to an 01FFL. You cannot ship these to any non-FFL person or entity. Long guns made prior to 1898 are in a different category called "antiques." Those are considered non-firearms and may shipped to a non-FFL.


The CMP has a special Charter authorized by the government.


Some States (like CA) have different definitions about what are considered C&R's, so better check into the rules in the seller and buyer's state.

.

hoffmang
01-25-2010, 8:05 PM
No C&R needed by anyone who is a California resident buying from a California resident when the long arm is C&R and over 50 years old: See Penal Code 12078(t)(2):


(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of
Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or
transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio
or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but
not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title
27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.


You could have found this at: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Buying_f rom_a_Private_Party_WITHOUT_a_Dealer

The Wiki is your friend.

-Gene

ajaffe
01-25-2010, 8:06 PM
CMP mails them direct to your door. YOu also don't need to go through an FFL to sell one so why would you need to use an FFL when mailing one?

CMP is a .gov organization and I believe they run a background check as well.

Turo
01-25-2010, 8:13 PM
From the wiki:
Buying from a Private Party WITHOUT a Dealer

For a very narrow range of firearms, no dealer or license is required. An individual can purchase Curio or Relic long guns without using an FFL and with or without having a Curio and Relic/03 Federal License themselves.
California uses the Federal definition of C&R guns (Penal Code 12078(t)(2))
(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
Penal Code 12072(d) requires 2 non-licensed individuals to use an FFL in a Penal Code 12082 Private Party Transfer; the above is an exception to that requirement.

Lol that means I don't have to edit my first post.

ke6guj
01-25-2010, 8:17 PM
As Gene mentioned, if both parties are CA-residents, and the long gun is over 50-years old, there is no CA-requirement that an FFL be involved in the transfer. And since the entire transaction would happen in CA, there is no interstate traffic involved, so federal law does not come into effect.

Nothing in the PC limits that non-FFL exemption to FTF transfers and not mailed/shipped transfers.

pullnshoot25
01-25-2010, 8:23 PM
Well I'll be damned, I definitely stand corrected. Mea culpa.

Serpentine
01-25-2010, 8:36 PM
Face to face transfer of C&R long guns (that don't fall under the CA assault weapons ban) are legal, and don't require an FFL, but shipping is a different realm. That falls under Federal code. To ship a C&R long gun anywhere, you need a copy of an 03 or 01FFL in your possession. To ship a C&R handgun (within CA), you need an 01FFL copy in your possession.


.

Turo
01-25-2010, 8:41 PM
Face to face transfer of C&R long guns (that don't fall under the CA assault weapons ban) are legal, and don't require an FFL, but shipping is a different realm. That falls under Federal code. To ship a C&R long gun anywhere, you need a copy of an 03 or 01FFL in your possession. To ship a C&R handgun (within CA), you need an 01FFL copy in your possession.


.

cite PC? Because the CA PC doesn't say anything about not being able to ship them.

Serpentine
01-25-2010, 8:49 PM
cite PC? Because the CA PC doesn't say anything about not being able to ship them.

No, but federal code does, and that is the scope of the 03FFL C&R license. It's more restrictive, therefore it presides over the lack of shipping restrictions in the CA PC code.



.

Turo
01-25-2010, 8:51 PM
No, but federal code does, and that is the scope of the 03FFL C&R license. It's more restrictive, therefore it presides over the lack of shipping restrictions in the CA PC code.



.

Even if the transfer happens within CA? I thought that meant it didn't fall under federal code.

Seesm
01-25-2010, 8:53 PM
So are we saying Gene is wrong? I am not confortable with THAT... :)

ke6guj
01-25-2010, 8:55 PM
No, but federal code does, and that is the scope of the 03FFL C&R license. It's more restrictive, therefore it presides over the lack of shipping restrictions in the CA PC code.



.

Can you quote the federal code that states that an intrastate transfer must use an FFL of any type? Remember, its is legal to do so unless specifically prohibited. Yes, federal law does state the following,

§ 922 Unlawful acts.
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(1) for any person—
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, or licensed
dealer, to engage in the business of
importing, manufacturing, or dealing
in firearms, or in the course of such
business to ship, transport, or receive
any firearm in interstate or foreign
commerce; orkey word being interstate. Intrastate is not mentioned, and therefore, not regulated federally.

hoffmang
01-25-2010, 9:08 PM
Can you quote the federal code that states that an intrastate transfer must use an FFL of any type? Remember, its is legal to do so unless specifically prohibited. Yes, federal law does state the following,

key word being interstate. Intrastate is not mentioned, and therefore, not regulated federally.

We have a winner!

-Gene

Serpentine
01-25-2010, 9:10 PM
Can you quote the federal code that states that an intrastate transfer must use an FFL of any type? Remember, its is legal to do so unless specifically prohibited. Yes, federal law does state the following,

key word being interstate. Intrastate is not mentioned, and therefore, not regulated federally.

With all do respect, call your local BATFE office. Ask about the scope of the 03FFL license as it applies to the shipping regulations of C&R firearms, intrastate. They'd be able to give you the exact section. That's what I do (did) when I don't understand or have the time to search through that 1" book of serious legal terminology. Just because it's not in the CA PC, doesn't mean that BATFE code is not involved.


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Mssr. Eleganté
01-25-2010, 9:14 PM
With all do respect, call your local BATFE office. Ask about the scope of the 03FFL license as it applies to the shipping regulations of C&R firearms, intrastate. They'd be able to give you the exact section. That's what I do (did) when I don't understand or have the time to search through that 1" book of serious legal terminology.


.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Ke6guj already posted the section of Federal law for you. It says it's only illegal to ship if the firearm is going interstate. If the firearm is going between two unlicensed residents of the same State then Federal restrictions don't apply.

ke6guj
01-25-2010, 9:14 PM
In neither this thread or the original sales thread was it mentioned that the shipper was an 03FFL. So, rules that may apply to an 03FFL do not apply to non-licensees, and I still don't recall there being anything that says that an 03 must ship to another FFL. Yes, he needs to get the buyer's info for his bound book, but nothing is stated how the firearm must arrive to an intrastate buyer.

Serpentine
01-25-2010, 9:25 PM
Can you quote the federal code that states that an intrastate transfer must use an FFL of any type? Remember, its is legal to do so unless specifically prohibited. Yes, federal law does state the following,

key word being interstate. Intrastate is not mentioned, and therefore, not regulated federally.

The code you quoted appears to address "to engage in the business of
importing, manufacturing, or dealing
in firearms, or in the course of such
business to ship, transport, or receive
any firearm in interstate or foreign
commerce."

Keywords are "business" and "commerce."

That looks like code for an 01FFL, manufacturer, or importer, not a collector licensee, or even a private party to private party transfer. The C&R collector license has a different scope. An individual shipping to another individual doesn't fall under "business" or "commerce."

Assuming you are right on "no restrictions" on the intrastate shipping of C&R long guns to an intrastate "addressee," from an "addressee." No C&R license copy required, no driver's license required, just a name and address. How would you know who you are dealing with? What are the limits? Could I ship my privately owned, entire collection of WWII M1 Garands, carbines, SKS's to an unknown, unlicensed, possibly undocumented person or persons? I don't think so.

.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-25-2010, 9:37 PM
The code you quoted appears to address "to engage in the business of
importing, manufacturing, or dealing
in firearms, or in the course of such
business to ship, transport, or receive
any firearm in interstate or foreign
commerce."

Keywords are "business" and "commerce."

That looks like code for an 01FFL, manufacturer, or importer, not a collector licensee. The C&R collector license has a different scope. An individual shipping to another individual doesn't fall under "business" or "commerce."






.

Here you go then...

922(a) It shall be unlawful -

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to
transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to
any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the
transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not
reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business
entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in
which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall
not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a
firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who
is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of
the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;

As you can see, an FFL only needs to be involved of the transaction is between residents of two different States. If both parties are residents of the the same State then neither party needs to be an FFL for the transfer to be legal.

Rukus
01-25-2010, 10:22 PM
How would you know who you are dealing with? What are the limits? Could I ship my privately owned, entire collection of WWII M1 Garands, carbines, SKS's to an unknown, unlicensed, possibly undocumented person or persons? I don't think so.

Well this is an entirely different can of worms than the "is it legal" aspect, this falls more along the lines of "is it smart to do". While it appears that you could ship to another CA resident and be legal, admittedly you would be taking their word on whether or not they were or were not a prohibited person. I think that is the main reason most people are only comfortable shipping C&R's to 03FFL holders.

Serpentine
01-25-2010, 10:30 PM
Here you go then...



As you can see, an FFL only needs to be involved of the transaction is between residents of two different States. If both parties are residents of the the same State then neither party needs to be an FFL for the transfer to be legal.

Again, with all due respect guys, that code addresses

"the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a
firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who
is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of
the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;

This is talking about intrafamilial transfers, rentals, and temporary loans. Especially noted "a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence."

No mention of shipping a firearm private party to private party, without any knowledge of the receiver's criminal background, restraints, citizen status, mental status, etc. For all you know, you could inadvertently be making a straw sale to a bunch of gang or terrorist members.

I'm sure there is no loophole here. It has to go to an 01 or 03 FFL if you ship, interstate or intrastate.


.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-25-2010, 10:44 PM
Again, with all due respect guys, that code addresses

"the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a
firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who
is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of
the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;

This is talking about intrafamilial transfers, rentals, and temporary loans. Especially noted "a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence."

No mention of shipping a firearm private party to private party, without any knowledge of the receiver's criminal background, restraints, citizen status, mental status, etc. For all you know, you could inadvertently be making a straw sale to a bunch of gang or terrorist members.

I'm sure there is no loophole here. It has to go to an 01 or 03 FFL if you ship, interstate or intrastate.


.

Why did you skip over the first half of the law that I posted? That was the part that said it is illegal to ship in interstate commerce without an FFL. Is all of the legal mumbo jumbo that we are posting too confusing. (I don't blame you if it is.) And what are you talking about when you say "loophole". There needs to be a law prohibiting something before you can have a loophole in that law. Transferring firearms between unlicensed residents of the same State has never been against Federal law.

How about this. BATFE has a FAQ section on their website where they explain things in simple terms....

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#gca-unlicensed-transfer



Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

hoffmang
01-25-2010, 11:20 PM
Let's turn to the ATF. Specifically ATF P 5300.4 (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf) — Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 on Page 177 (178 of the PDF):


(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a fire- arm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

I think ATF's official publications on this should end the debate. Federal law allows it, and state law (quoted above) allows it.

-Gene

Mssr. Eleganté
01-25-2010, 11:24 PM
Let's turn to the ATF. Specifically ATF P 5300.4 (http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf) — Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 on Page 177 (178 of the PDF):



I think ATF's official publications on this should end the debate. Federal law allows it, and state law (quoted above) allows it.

-Gene

Thanks for posting that Gene. I lost that one when BATFE redid their web site late last year.

Serpentine
01-25-2010, 11:25 PM
I read the appropriate parts, and I read your ATF link. If you read on, there is another statement in those FAQ's:

Q: Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms and/or ammunition?

Yes, a person who —

1. Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
2. Is a fugitive from justice;
3. Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
4. Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
5. Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
6. Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
7. Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship;
8. Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
9. Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
10. Cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.

A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm.

Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information.

[18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n), 27 CFR 478.32]"

Face to face, you can have him fill out a form 4473 that has his signature on it, and you should get a photocopy of his driver's license too. That would be good reason to believe he doesn't fall under any of the above prohibitions and help to keep your backside out of scutiny.

Again, SHIPPING from addressee to addressee, no other documents required, no limits, no other information but a name and address?

That's playing with fire. And for what, to save $75 in FFL transfer fees? I'd say that's a small price to pay considering the state of affairs in CA, at our borders, inner city gangs, recently released parolees from overcrowded prisons. My gosh, the $75 (the purchaser pays) will let me sleep at night knowing I did my best to prevent firearms from getting into the wrong hands, and forever worrying that your firearm is not used for a capital crime down the river.

Come on guys, just because we "may" be able to do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

.


.

Fate
01-25-2010, 11:31 PM
Put a fork in it.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-25-2010, 11:31 PM
Come on guys, just because we "may" be able to do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Okay, so you've switched from "illegal" to "bad idea". Thank you for admitting you were wrong. :p

ke6guj
01-25-2010, 11:32 PM
can't you just admit you were incorrect about the law?

Why would I fill out a 4473 if I was buying FTF from a private party?

And we weren't saying it was neccessarily the best thing to ship it without any FFL involvement, but it isn't illegal to do so.

chickenfried
01-25-2010, 11:57 PM
We should have people fill out 4473's when doing a private party C&R transaction? What are we supposed to do with it after the buyer fills it out, origami?

Going through a FFL and paying $75 helps ensure that a gun I used to own isn't used in a capital crime. I wonder how that works?

I think you've lived in CA too long.




Face to face, you can have him fill out a form 4473 that has his signature on it, and you should get a photocopy of his driver's license too. That would be good reason to believe he doesn't fall under any of the above prohibitions and help to keep your backside out of scutiny.

Again, SHIPPING from addressee to addressee, no other documents required, no limits, no other information but a name and address?

That's playing with fire. And for what, to save $75 in FFL transfer fees? I'd say that's a small price to pay considering the state of affairs in CA, at our borders, inner city gangs, recently released parolees from overcrowded prisons. My gosh, the $75 (the purchaser pays) will let me sleep at night knowing I did my best to prevent firearms from getting into the wrong hands, and forever worrying that your firearm is not used for a capital crime down the river.

Come on guys, just because we "may" be able to do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

.


.

hoffmang
01-26-2010, 12:01 AM
Come on guys, just because we "may" be able to do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

You mean like importing, buying, building, and owning AR-15's?

-Gene

Serpentine
01-26-2010, 12:52 AM
can't you just admit you were incorrect about the law?

Why would I fill out a 4473 if I was buying FTF from a private party?

And we weren't saying it was neccessarily the best thing to ship it without any FFL involvement, but it isn't illegal to do so.

Not so fast. I'll research this more because I am not sure that a few hours of evaluation keeps everyone out of trouble, or is a thorough analysis. I see problems such as the exercise of due diligence of knowing who you are selling and shipping firearms to.

I don't know who you are. I have discretion and a conscience and don't want firearms in the wrong hands.

If I am selling a C&R firearm to you FTF, you'll either provide me with an FFL copy, or will fill out a 4473 and I'll have a photocopy of your driver's license for my own piece of mind and records, or I will politely and respectfully ask you to move along. I don't have the desire to play in the gray areas, nor have I allocated an unlimited legal fund should you fall under the illegal recipient rules.

I respect you guys, but sometimes the common sense 'big picture' gets distorted in the "it's not illegal" fray.

Your brother in Arms.


.

Serpentine
01-26-2010, 1:01 AM
You mean like importing, buying, building, and owning AR-15's?

-Gene

Respectfully, off topic.

Mssr. Eleganté
01-26-2010, 1:42 AM
I respect you guys, but sometimes the common sense 'big picture' gets distorted in the "it's not illegal" fray.

Long guns made prior to 1898 are in a different category called "antiques." Those are considered non-firearms and may shipped to a non-FFL.

Do you feel that shipping a Long Lee Enfield manufactured in 1897 to a stranger is more responsible than shipping a Long Lee Enfield manufactured in 1899 to a stranger? They both fire modern .303 British ammo. Both could be used by a recently paroled gang banger to wreak the same amount of havoc. Why do you seem to give antiques (including handguns) a pass, but feel that selling 50 year old C&R long guns to strangers goes against "common sense"?

And why not just admit that you were wrong about the law and start a new debate about why it's a bad idea to ship 50 year old C&R long guns to strangers? You could focus on the civil liability aspects of mailing guns to strangers rather than making up fake laws to back up your claims. Heck, many of us would agree with you on that.

Riodog
01-26-2010, 1:57 AM
Serpentine, it appears that you've blown whatever credibility that you may have once possessed. Admit you're wrong and move along.
Rio

navyinrwanda
01-26-2010, 2:32 AM
If I am selling a C&R firearm to you FTF, you'll either provide me with an FFL copy, or will fill out a 4473 and I'll have a photocopy of your driver's license for my own piece of mind and records, or I will politely and respectfully ask you to move along. I don't have the desire to play in the gray areas, nor have I allocated an unlimited legal fund should you fall under the illegal recipient rules.

I respect you guys, but sometimes the common sense 'big picture' gets distorted in the "it's not illegal" fray.

You've been in California too long.

Residents of the same state (other than California) can sell, transfer and ship handguns and long guns directly between themselves.

And residents of California can do the same with C&R long guns — sell, transfer and ship.

This is not a dangerous, unethical, or ill-advised activity. It's perfectly legal and perfectly proper. Yes, some politicians and academics have been campaigning to prohibit unlicensed intrastate sales by calling it the "gun show loophole." They've been very successful in California, and have had some limited successes in other states. But federalism issues prevent any federal regulation of intrastate commerce in firearms between individuals.

If you're an 01 FFL, then you're different, and different rules apply. But the rules and regulations controlling what you can and can't do don't apply to unlicensed persons.

SJgunguy24
01-26-2010, 6:49 AM
Not so fast. I'll research this more because I am not sure that a few hours of evaluation keeps everyone out of trouble, or is a thorough analysis. I see problems such as the exercise of due diligence of knowing who you are selling and shipping firearms to.

I don't know who you are. I have discretion and a conscience and don't want firearms in the wrong hands.

If I am selling a C&R firearm to you FTF, you'll either provide me with an FFL copy, or will fill out a 4473 and I'll have a photocopy of your driver's license for my own piece of mind and records, or I will politely and respectfully ask you to move along. I don't have the desire to play in the gray areas, nor have I allocated an unlimited legal fund should you fall under the illegal recipient rules.

I respect you guys, but sometimes the common sense 'big picture' gets distorted in the "it's not illegal" fray.

Your brother in Arms.


.


Barry, your an 01FFL. You have different rules to follow.

In bold is your personal policy, thats fine, but saying that your policy is the law is wrong.
Intrastate C&R longarm transactions between non licensee's is 100% legal with zero paperwork involved. Now if I obtain and C&R longarm I need name and address for my bound book entry, now I might ask the seller to ship a copy of their CA ID/DL to make it easy, but there is no legal requirement.

dantodd
01-26-2010, 6:58 AM
Not so fast. I'll research this more because I am not sure that a few hours of evaluation keeps everyone out of trouble, or is a thorough analysis. I see problems such as the exercise of due diligence of knowing who you are selling and shipping firearms to.

I don't know who you are. I have discretion and a conscience and don't want firearms in the wrong hands.

If I am selling a C&R firearm to you FTF, you'll either provide me with an FFL copy, or will fill out a 4473 and I'll have a photocopy of your driver's license for my own piece of mind and records, or I will politely and respectfully ask you to move along. I don't have the desire to play in the gray areas, nor have I allocated an unlimited legal fund should you fall under the illegal recipient rules.

I respect you guys, but sometimes the common sense 'big picture' gets distorted in the "it's not illegal" fray.

Your brother in Arms.


.

Thank you for doing the due diligence to look into it further. When you do be sure to take off your FFL hat. The requirements may well be different for licensed and unlicensed individuals.

Serpentine
01-26-2010, 9:07 AM
I was very wrong! I stand corrected. I apologize to the forum for my lack of knowledge on this. I spoke with the DOJ this morning and it is confirmed that a private party may ship or receive a C&R long gun, intrastate, to another private party, without going through any FFL, without having an 03FFL involved, and nothing is required from the shipping seller except name and address of the recipient.

I've had a C&R 03FFL for over 10 years, and my 01FFL for 5, and have never had this come up before.

Once again, my apologies. Please excuse me while I eat some tasty crow.


.

Hopi
01-26-2010, 11:50 AM
I was very wrong! I stand corrected. I apologize to the forum for my lack of knowledge on this. I spoke with the DOJ this morning and it is confirmed that a private party may ship or receive a C&R long gun, intrastate, to another private party, without going through any FFL, without having an 03FFL involved, and nothing is required from the shipping seller except name and address of the recipient.

I've had a C&R 03FFL for over 10 years, and my 01FFL for 5, and have never had this come up before.

Once again, my apologies. Please excuse me while I eat some tasty crow.


.


Good on you.

It's impressive that you received good info from the DOJ, i called them on that topic a few years ago and got a stuttering and uninformed rep on the phone.....

ke6guj
01-26-2010, 12:07 PM
Serpentine, thanks for the follow up.

paul0660
01-26-2010, 12:08 PM
It isn't surprising that this comes up so frequently. Being able to transfer C&R long guns without hassle almost makes one feel like you are in another state.

One thing about 03's........the licensee is guaranteed to be a non prohibited person on the day the license is issued, but a lot can happen in three years, and there is no easy way to check if a 03 is valid. I think one can assume that a 03 makes a person safe to ship to, but it isn't for sure. When I sell an old rifle, ftf or not, I get a signed statement that closely follows the questions on the 4473 along with the DL. If shipping the rifle, I talk to the buyer on the phone, and let my spidey sense do some work as well.

dantodd
01-26-2010, 12:09 PM
Only a big man can eat a meal of crow gracefully.

Lancear15
01-26-2010, 12:09 PM
coincidentally, I had almost this same exact discussion with the customer service guy yesterday at a local UPS hub, while I picked up more ammo. Waste of my time, but I did turn him on to CGN.

SJgunguy24
01-26-2010, 12:38 PM
I know Serpentine and he's a stand up dude, but he's very cautious and likes to make sure nothing will come back to bite him later. Ask him about the whole SKS fiasco from years gone by.
This one I think he had the 01 FFL and unlicensed thing crossed up. He's a good dude and if your in the San Jose area he is another FFL you can use.

Tweak338
01-26-2010, 3:06 PM
really, didn't know there was another FFL in the SJ area.
Good to know

CSACANNONEER
01-26-2010, 3:27 PM
I was very wrong! I stand corrected. I apologize to the forum for my lack of knowledge on this. I spoke with the DOJ this morning and it is confirmed that a private party may ship or receive a C&R long gun, intrastate, to another private party, without going through any FFL, without having an 03FFL involved, and nothing is required from the shipping seller except name and address of the recipient.

I've had a C&R 03FFL for over 10 years, and my 01FFL for 5, and have never had this come up before.

Once again, my apologies. Please excuse me while I eat some tasty crow.


.

It's posts like this which show the caliber of many of the members here!
I wish everyone here was big enough to admit their errors.

mrlonewolf
01-26-2010, 3:35 PM
It's posts like this which show the caliber of many of the members here!
I wish everyone here was big enough to admit their errors.

+ 1

CGK60
01-26-2010, 4:39 PM
Wow that takes a big man to admit he made a mistake like that.My respect go's to him.

hoffmang
01-26-2010, 11:54 PM
I was very wrong! I stand corrected.

It takes a good man to admit when incorrect and I thank and applaud you.

-Gene

triggerhappy
01-28-2010, 10:16 PM
No C&R needed by anyone who is a California resident buying from a California resident when the long arm is C&R and over 50 years old: See Penal Code 12078(t)(2):



You could have found this at: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Buying_f rom_a_Private_Party_WITHOUT_a_Dealer

The Wiki is your friend.

-Gene

Wow, Thank you, Gene! I appreciate your input. I wasn't sure how I would have posted an intelligent question on this topic, so thanks for the pre-emptive link. :)