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View Full Version : Bill AB962 is 22LR considered handgun ammo?


r8dr rider
01-25-2010, 6:07 PM
Does anybody know if 22LR ammo would be considered handgun ammo under this bill? Also does it restrict the sale of ALL ammo on the internet or just handgun ammo on the internet?

wildhawker
01-25-2010, 6:11 PM
We have no way of knowing at this time.

Only "handgun" ammunition is restricted under the law.

pingpong
01-25-2010, 6:15 PM
Depending on the interpretation, handgun ammo could extend to any sort of ammo where a handgun exists that can chamber said round. In that case, you can say goodbye to .223, 7.62x39, even .410 shotshell

Pyrodyne
01-25-2010, 6:47 PM
This subject seems interesting. There are many handguns that have been built and will chamber rifle rounds. Many are not cali-legal IIRC, so I am curious if the handgun calibers will be determined on cali legal firearms or not.

http://www.reedercustomguns.com/information/stupid/50bmg.jpg
50 BMG Pistol...

ChuckBooty
01-25-2010, 6:55 PM
Depending on the interpretation, handgun ammo could extend to any sort of ammo where a handgun exists that can chamber said round. In that case, you can say goodbye to .223, 7.62x39, even .410 shotshell

I know of a shop that intends to ask the customer if the ammo is for a hand gun or a long gun (regardless of caliber). You reply with, "Long gun" and no record will be kept. I mean...there are 9mm AR's (for example). ANY caliber round has a long gun chambered in it. Somewhere.

orangeusa
01-25-2010, 6:57 PM
Depending on the interpretation, handgun ammo could extend to any sort of ammo where a handgun exists that can chamber said round. In that case, you can say goodbye to .223, 7.62x39, even .410 shotshell

I guess the gist of this is "handgun exists" (in CA???) "that can chamber said round"????

Which brings up an interesting question - is there a .223 CA DOJ handgun?

I'd assume the .410 is safe, since it's already illegal in a handgun. Yeah I just re-read the DOJ stuff - hence no Taurus Judge!!!!

BTW - The Beretta CX4 is a 9mm carbine....

c good
01-25-2010, 7:09 PM
.22 LR (Long Rifle) Let's just hope they interpret it the way it's written. Not holding my breath though. c cood

jamesob
01-25-2010, 7:12 PM
thompson contender has a 223. the fact is almost every rifle round exept for big game rounds can be found on handguns. contender makes barrels from 22lr all the way up to a 204. and maybe bigger.

bodger
01-25-2010, 7:15 PM
This subject seems interesting. There are many handguns that have been built and will chamber rifle rounds. Many are not cali-legal IIRC, so I am curious if the handgun calibers will be determined on cali legal firearms or not.

http://www.reedercustomguns.com/information/stupid/50bmg.jpg
50 BMG Pistol...


Jeebus! That looks like a knuckle buster.

orangeusa
01-25-2010, 7:18 PM
That has to be legal - it's a phasor...

jamesob - Ahh - I was thinking CA legal semi-autos, but that's not the way it's written.

I'm still thinking of CA legal, but here are CA legal revolvers, single shots or SA handguns which will cover almost any rifle round...

So the fabulous .410 (which sucks) is still okay... ughghghgh

Toddzilla
01-25-2010, 7:19 PM
BassPro in Manteca has it behind the counter so they feel it is handgun ammo.

Other rifle ammo is still out on the floor.

jb7706
01-25-2010, 7:25 PM
It would be worth your time to read the writeup at calgunlaws.com (http://www.calgunlaws.com/index.php/articles-memoranda-and-commentary/839-practical-implications-of-ab-962.html). It may require registration to view it. Since I'm not sure about that I won't post the doc or the text in it here.

My375hp302
01-25-2010, 8:52 PM
Doesn't really matter. I'm willing to bet that no company will be shipping us ANY ammo, just to be safe. CTD already has stuff in their catalogs saying effective jan 2011 they will not send ammo to CA. Seeing as how the law is so vague it will probably wind up cutting off all the ammo to CA, as I'm sure the a-holes that wrote it intended. Lucky for me I'm only 2.5 hrs away from Cabela's in Reno. I will NEVER be fingerprinted in this damn state for buying ammo or pay the stupid high prices that will occur right after this goes into effect.

CMonfort
01-26-2010, 5:39 PM
Does anybody know if 22LR ammo would be considered handgun ammo under this bill? Also does it restrict the sale of ALL ammo on the internet or just handgun ammo on the internet?

There seems to be a good deal of confusion (and misinformation being spread) about this issue and others regarding the details of AB 962. Please stay tuned as we will be posting a Dealer/Ammunition Vendor Compliance Guide on www.calgunlaws.com that should help shed some light on these issues in the near future.

In response to the initial poster's question about the scope of the face-to-face requirement, it applies only to "handgun ammunition."

As far as what will be considered handgun ammunition for purposes of the registration/storage/employee handling requirement AND the face-to-face requirement (internet / mail order ban), please note the following:

For purposes of these sections (12061 and 12318), "handgun ammunition" is defined in section 12060 according to Pen. Code §12323 as "ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles." Penal Code section 12060 clarifies that this definition does not include either 1) ammunition designed or intended to be used in antique firearms or 2) blanks.

The DOJ has not issued, and at this time does not plan to issue, any regulations that provide clarification as to whether .22 or .22LR rimfire ammunition (or any other ammunition that can be used in both handguns and long guns), will be considered ammunition that is “principally for use in handguns."

In response to some postings on this thread about there being many types of ammunition primarily used in long guns, but that can be chambered in a handgun, that does not mean the ammunition will be considered "handgun ammunition" for purposes of these sections. Remember that the applicable definition states that "handgun ammunition" is ammunition "principally for use in handguns...."

Please note, however, the difference in the manner in which this definition is presented in Penal Code section 12316(a)(1)(B), which prohibits the sale of handgun ammunition to minors. That section likewise references and invokes the 12323 "principally for use in handguns" definition. However, section 12316(a)(1)(B) goes on to include the following language: "Where ammunition or reloaded ammunition may be used in both a rifle and a handgun, it may be sold to a person who is at least 18 years of age, but less than 21 years of age, if the vendor reasonably believes that the ammunition is being acquired for use in a rifle and not a handgun." This language is not referenced nor included in the 12060 definition applicable to the 12061 registration requirement or the 12318 face-to-face requirement.

This scope of the definition of "handgun ammunition" for purposes of section 12061 and 12318 is but one of many confusing issues and problems with this counter-productive bill. Our office continues to work to behalf of firearm owners to gain clarification on a multitude of issues regarding this law and others from the CA Department of Justice.

In the meantime, please keep an eye out for the Ammunition Vendor Compliance Guide that will be posted on www.calgunlaws.com in the coming weeks.”

Lagduf
01-26-2010, 7:08 PM
Assuming AB962 sticks around for awhile I can only hope that vendors will consider .22LR to be rifle ammunition and if we're lucky maybe the DOJ will clarify that issue?

But hopefully this law is struck down anyway.

For what it's worth Wal-Mart always sold me .22LR before I was 21, but again, take that for what it's worth.

tyrist
01-26-2010, 7:25 PM
Should be easy to remove the law as it should actually list which calibers constitute handgun ammunition.

jamesob
01-26-2010, 7:49 PM
dealers should be able to ask if the ammo is for a handgun or rifle, but that will never happen.

railroader
01-26-2010, 8:31 PM
Doesn't really matter. I'm willing to bet that no company will be shipping us ANY ammo, just to be safe. CTD already has stuff in their catalogs saying effective jan 2011 they will not send ammo to CA. Seeing as how the law is so vague it will probably wind up cutting off all the ammo to CA, as I'm sure the a-holes that wrote it intended. Lucky for me I'm only 2.5 hrs away from Cabela's in Reno. I will NEVER be fingerprinted in this damn state for buying ammo or pay the stupid high prices that will occur right after this goes into effect.

I would have to agree. Since the law doesn't specify what handgun ammo is out of state vendors will say screw it. It will be like firearm sales on gunbroker but worse. No sales to california. Mark

wjc
01-26-2010, 8:37 PM
Holy Muckia! What's the recoil like on that thing?!

dustoff31
01-26-2010, 9:01 PM
dealers should be able to ask if the ammo is for a handgun or rifle, but that will never happen.

That's the way it was way back when, during the fed thing about signing for ammo.

But nowadays, you think many dealers are going to take any chances? I don't.

upinflames2400
01-26-2010, 9:55 PM
Some places consider it handgun ammo. Walmart wont sell me .22lr claiming that it is handgun ammo and that you need to be 21 to buy handgun ammo which im only 20. But i can go down to any range or other store and get it in my area. I told the guy that any caliber could be created in a handgun which a freind of mine has a .223 thunder cat and he didnt believe me. I printed the guy out some info on firearm laws to educate himself after my buzzz was blown one night.

Does anybody know if 22LR ammo would be considered handgun ammo under this bill? Also does it restrict the sale of ALL ammo on the internet or just handgun ammo on the internet?

SoCal Gunner
06-16-2010, 7:10 AM
I know this is an older AB962 thread, but it hit on the point I'm really curious about - What IS handgun ammo? (plus it shows I used the search button).
I read CMonfort's post with the legal language, but it seems pretty open.
Has there been any clarification on this or a "list"? .22lr is a great example and the point of .233 being pistol fired is good too... I'd be interested in the 5.7x28mm round - it did start as a rifle round.

advocatusdiaboli
06-16-2010, 9:34 PM
I will NEVER be fingerprinted in this damn state for buying ammo or pay the stupid high prices that will occur right after this goes into effect.

+1
Me neither. IF California doesn't want my sale tax, this is a great way to ensure they get less and less of it. I'll buy everything I can out of state whether internet or personal trip.

SoCal Gunner
06-16-2010, 9:49 PM
I can see it now - Turn Around trips for ammo... Bus loads traveling to the nearest free state. LOL

robcoe
06-16-2010, 10:14 PM
I can see it now - Turn Around trips for ammo... Bus loads traveling to the nearest free state. LOL

Ill be one of them, or even better if my dad ends up moving to Oregon like he hopes to Ill just have it shipped to him and he can forward it to me

russ69
06-16-2010, 11:02 PM
This is typical of our jackass legislature. As soon as you contemplate a restriction of handgun ammo the first thing you should do is define what handgun ammo is. The bill is a total fail as passed. This just illustrates what lame leadership we have. This is the same question we had 20 years ago when they made us sign for handgun ammo, totally useless. Really how difficult is this job? A high school student could write better bills, at least they know what a handgun is. Our legislators need to be changed.

Thanx, Russ

stitchnicklas
06-16-2010, 11:30 PM
.22 is cheap enought break down and buy 300 bucks worth and you will have 8250 rounds

Quiet
06-16-2010, 11:47 PM
I know this is an older AB962 thread, but it hit on the point I'm really curious about - What IS handgun ammo? (plus it shows I used the search button).
I read CMonfort's post with the legal language, but it seems pretty open.
Has there been any clarification on this or a "list"? .22lr is a great example and the point of .233 being pistol fired is good too... I'd be interested in the 5.7x28mm round - it did start as a rifle round.

Penal Code 12323
As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall apply:
(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

calixt0
06-16-2010, 11:55 PM
I was talking to a local gun shop that I know pretty well and they almost made it sound like it was going to be their option. I asked and he said something to me like if you look respectful then you are buying carbine ammo. was an interesting take on it to me.

turbogg
06-17-2010, 12:00 AM
"Our legislators need to be changed". Are those words to live by! It is a true reflection of the typical American voter, that these same idiots get re-elected time and time again. And yet at the same time the public approval ratings are abysmal. What the h£\\ is up with that!

ttboy
06-17-2010, 4:38 AM
I'll be DAMN that I will be fingerprinted like a criminal to buy Ammo in Kalifornia!!! I'm buying and hoarding NOW 9mm, .380acp, 38 spl. 32 acp, 22lr . I'll make periodic trips to Arizona where they don't have deal with crap like this!!!

SoCal Gunner
06-17-2010, 6:04 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm hoarding too - BUT the time will come when you need more. I'm still hung up on "principally used in pistols..." The 5.7x28mm round was started in a P90 rifle, so who's discretion will it be to say pistol or rifle?

Etoshan
06-19-2010, 6:35 PM
This is typical of our jackass legislature. As soon as you contemplate a restriction of handgun ammo the first thing you should do is define what handgun ammo is. The bill is a total fail as passed. This just illustrates what lame leadership we have. This is the same question we had 20 years ago when they made us sign for handgun ammo, totally useless. Really how difficult is this job? A high school student could write better bills, at least they know what a handgun is. Our legislators need to be changed.

Thanx, Russ

We will live under exactly the amount of tyranny that we will tolerate.

thayne
06-19-2010, 7:31 PM
Penal Code 12323
As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall apply:
(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

I would say .22 Long Rifle would principally be a rifle cartridge

GoodEyeSniper
06-19-2010, 8:42 PM
Wal-Mart seems to think it is, but I know that isn't exactly saying much :P

Picked some up this weekend and the lady asks for my ID, looks at it and says, "You're not 21!" I just kindof stared at her blankly and replied that in fact, I'm not 21, I'm 23 years old :p

But I asked if I had to be 21, so it's considered handgun ammunition? Even though it says RIFLE right on the box?? I said it with a grin, knowing there's no sense to these laws, and not expecting an explanation, but she wasn't too thrilled with me.

geeknow
06-20-2010, 6:31 AM
as far as I am concerned, all of my ammo is RIFLE ammo.

g

lewdogg21
06-20-2010, 6:48 AM
Good thread. I was at Sportsmens Warehouse in Rocklin last weekend and saw a .17HMR revolver. First thought was "uh, ok, kinda cool". 2nd through was oh s#!T as my mind went to AB962 (I own a savage 17).

My father has started putting the pressure on me to load up on rounds and reloading components (I don't reload but he does) in anticipation of February. I feel some sort of moral obligation to not join the panic masses and begin buying ammo just b/c I can find it (regardless of price). This thread and the calgunlaws (of which I will register to read) are very helpful.

I'm going to donate and become a supporting member. Calguns is really saving the California gun enthusiast's butts with all their work.