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DENCO
01-24-2010, 10:25 AM
Is it a true statment for California that:

You can build an AR type rifle from an 80% lower, but if you want to sell it you must get the proper paper work and numbers issued from the DOJ? Then via an FFL sell it legaly.....

Thanks, Denco

Josh3239
01-24-2010, 12:54 PM
For a AR rifle? I'll assume so since it is in the rifle section. I believe the only thing you are required to do with the lower is properly engrave a name and location of where it was built just like you'd find on a regular lower. I am unsure if the ATF requires any further engravings, they may also require a model and serial number. If you decide to sell it, it must be sold through an FFL. No law requires that you ship through an FFL only that is must hit an FFL before the buyer.

Cokebottle
01-24-2010, 1:05 PM
Is it a true statment for California that:

You can build an AR type rifle from an 80% lower, but if you want to sell it you must get the proper paper work and numbers issued from the DOJ? Then via an FFL sell it legaly.....
Nothing needs to be issued by the DOJ.
California has no registration for long guns, nor does the ATF.
the only thing you are required to do with the lower is properly engrave a name and location of where it was built just like you'd find on a regular lower. I am unsure if the ATF requires any further engravings, they may also require a model and serial number.
Same requirements as for a handgun.
Name, location, serial number, and caliber (which may be indicated as "multi").
There is a minimum depth for the markings... a diamond engraver isn't going to cut it. For a stamped receiver, such as an AKM, a $5 set of 1/8" stamps from Harbor Freight will do the job.
They will probably work fine on an AR's aluminum receiver, but in either case, be sure to properly support the receiver so the impact from stamping does not damage the receiver. A safer way to go on the aluminum receiver would be to take it to a trophy shop and have it laser engraved.
Note that you CAN NOT leave the receiver overnight unless the engraver is an FFL... the receiver must always be in your immediate presence.
If you decide to sell it, it must be sold through an FFL. No law requires that you ship through an FFL only that is must hit an FFL before the buy
Again, same as a handgun.
If it is a PPT, both parties go to an FFL and complete the transfer. Buyer waits 10 days, and a background check is run on both the buyer and the seller. The check is run on the seller to make sure that he is not a prohibited person so he may retake possession if the buyer doesn't clear background.

If it is not a PPT, you cannot simply take the gun to an FFL "before the buy". You cannot ship the gun directly to the buyer... it must be shipped TO his FFL for the transfer process. It does not have to be shipped from an FFL.

dieselpower
01-24-2010, 1:53 PM
You are missing a VERY important point....

You are committing a felony if you manufacture a firearm for sale without a license. Period.

You may build a firearm for personal use, and the sale of that gun is subject to review by the BATFE, (if they find out). Its a very dangerous game building a 80% lower then selling it. You better be 100% correct on everything you do, all the way down to the depth of the markings or you are screwed. Also be prepared for them to "test" the law of personal use.... I would only be selling one to a trusted long time friend and even then, if they screw up the string leads right back to YOU.

Plan on a $10K+ lawyer bill if the poop hits the fan.

Josh3239
01-24-2010, 2:49 PM
I think it would be hard to argue that someone selling a single 80% build is in the illegal business of manufacturing firearms without a license. Selling a home build is no different than selling something you bought, if you sell enough of them the ATF is going to want you to get a license to deal them. If you are just sell one whether it is a home build or a lower you bought, the ATF has bigger fish to fry and won't waste their time trying to label you as an unlicensed dealer/manufacturer.

CHS
01-24-2010, 5:52 PM
You are committing a felony if you manufacture a firearm for sale without a license. Period.


Sort of.

You're not allowed to manufacture a firearm without a license FOR THE PURPOSES of sale.

You are allowed to sell a firearm that you manufactured without a license as long as it wasn't originally manufactured with the intent to sell.

Meaning, years/months/weeks later you become hard on your luck and need to sell a few things, you can sell your homemade gun. It's not a felony.

It all comes down to intent.

Cokebottle
01-24-2010, 6:02 PM
It all comes down to intent.
And the burden of proof of "intent to sell" is on the state.

If you've got a shop full of tooling and AKM blanks and have sold 3 or 4 in a year, it's a lot easier for the to show "intent".

If you went to a build party, slapped one together, had some fun with it, and realized it's an impractical weapon for both hunting and personal defense, it would be hard to get a conviction even with a public defender.

CSACANNONEER
01-24-2010, 6:07 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=262636