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View Full Version : What makes a longarm (rifle) non-concealable?


nrakid88
01-23-2010, 1:39 AM
I am trying to decide whether I am comfortable deciding if carrying a concealed keltec sub-2000 (a cali legal one) in a back pack, unloaded, no mag in the magwell, with loaded mags in the backpack, while hiking, or walking around in natural disasters, is legal or not.
The only part that is hanging me up is what makes a rifle or long arm inherently unconcealable? To the average shooter (or at least myself) a 6x16 inch gun in a back pack is concealed since no one would know it was there. That would make that rifle conealable in my eyes.
Is there some part of the P.C. that defines this, or is there perhaps some case law that defines what a concealable firearm is, and what a non-concealable firearm is?


Many thanks to any help, because I am at a loss

nrakid88
01-23-2010, 1:46 AM
I found this but the conclusion doesn't give me an optimistic feeling.
http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/news/80-just-in-time-for-christmas----yet-another-win-for-the-calguns-foundation

Mssr. Eleganté
01-23-2010, 1:46 AM
Basically, the fact that it has a barrel that is not less than 16 inches in length means it is not a "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person".

12001. (a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.

nrakid88
01-23-2010, 1:53 AM
Okay, thank you. Thats a little bit more comfortable

nrakid88
01-23-2010, 2:03 AM
Does the "as used in this title" part of PC 12001 refer to the terms "pistol" "revolver" "any firearm capable of being concealed upon the person", or does "as used in this title" refer soley to PC 12001 itself? And if so that it refers to 12001, does "Title 12001" consist of all 12001-12999 sections, or only the sections that 12001 refers to? I.E. how 12001 refers to different sections of the P.C.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I know very little about law semantics and any assumption here I could see would change the definition of non-concealable for my uses.

joelberg
01-23-2010, 2:15 AM
"concealed" is a legal term here. Not a rational term.

Librarian
01-23-2010, 9:25 AM
Does the "as used in this title" part of PC 12001 refer to the terms "pistol" "revolver" "any firearm capable of being concealed upon the person", or does "as used in this title" refer soley to PC 12001 itself? And if so that it refers to 12001, does "Title 12001" consist of all 12001-12999 sections, or only the sections that 12001 refers to? I.E. how 12001 refers to different sections of the P.C.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I know very little about law semantics and any assumption here I could see would change the definition of non-concealable for my uses.

12001 is a 'section'. the 'title' is "Title 2 CONTROL OF DEADLY WEAPONS [12000. - 12809.]"

Lone_Gunman
01-23-2010, 11:11 AM
You could throw a lock on the zippers of the pack and you would have a locked container if you are worried about it. It may not be necessary in a legal sense but I might consider doing it that way. I recently found a master lock at Target that seems perfect for gun type applications. Check it out.
http://www.masterlock.com/cgi-bin/product_detail.pl?sub_cat_id=D1500ID

b.faust
01-23-2010, 2:32 PM
Example A: "non-concealable"

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/images-20mm022standingatangle-fp.jpg

hoffmang
01-23-2010, 4:46 PM
Anything that qualifies as a rifle is by definition not concealable. You can have an unloaded AK in an unlocked guitar case (needs to be locked if your in a GFSZ) with magazines with rounds in them and it's completely legal.

-Gene

tombinghamthegreat
01-23-2010, 5:28 PM
The only way that would be concealable if the barrel is less than 16 inches...if that were true then you would have bigger issues that a misdemeanor charge.

Hunt
01-23-2010, 6:27 PM
Anything that qualifies as a rifle is by definition not concealable. You can have an unloaded AK in an unlocked guitar case (needs to be locked if your in a GFSZ) with magazines with rounds in them and it's completely legal.

-Gene
Those victims in mumbai wished they had this.
Gun ban prevented any defense. Never forget
Mumbai

nrakid88
01-23-2010, 8:16 PM
Example A: "non-concealable"

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/images-20mm022standingatangle-fp.jpg

Hahahaha, smart ***. The firearm I was thinking about is this

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp26/nrakid88/sub200folded.jpg

A easily concealable, yet by definition non-concealable, longarm.

pingpong
01-23-2010, 8:59 PM
Hahahaha, smart ***. The firearm I was thinking about is this

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp26/nrakid88/sub200folded.jpg

A easily concealable, yet by definition non-concealable, longarm.

Does that still meet the OAL requirement?

nrakid88
01-23-2010, 9:05 PM
With the butt stock extension that kel tec sells it is 30.5 inches unfolded, and wont fire folded so folded lenght doesn't matter.

SKSer
01-23-2010, 9:23 PM
Anything that qualifies as a rifle is by definition not concealable. You can have an unloaded AK in an unlocked guitar case (needs to be locked if your in a GFSZ) with magazines with rounds in them and it's completely legal.

-Gene

da**it Gene now I have to change the way I roll, everyones gonna know.:cool:

ke6guj
01-23-2010, 9:29 PM
Does that still meet the OAL requirement?Yes. OAL is measured in the rifle/shotgun's shortest fireable configuration. As pictured, the rifle is not fireable. It isn't fireable until it is unfolded. At that point it must meet the OAL minimums.

woodey
01-24-2010, 7:56 AM
So even a loaded rifle carried by a sling under a coat is not concealed? Whether is show's or not?

GrizzlyGuy
01-24-2010, 8:19 AM
So even a loaded rifle carried by a sling under a coat is not concealed? Whether is show's or not?

Correct, that's not concealed (as defined by CA laws), even if completely covered by the coat.

woodey
01-24-2010, 8:40 AM
Correct, that's not concealed (as defined by CA laws), even if completely covered by the coat.

I bet LEO would just love to run across that! That would go over even better than open carry.

stan
01-24-2010, 8:56 AM
Correct, that's not concealed (as defined by CA laws), even if completely covered by the coat.

so then whats the story? if it is not "concealed" does that mean you are open carrying a rifle, even though it isnt "open", so technically you'd still be doing something illegal? is there some 3rd category other than open and concealed?

Decoligny
01-24-2010, 9:09 AM
So even a loaded rifle carried by a sling under a coat is not concealed? Whether is show's or not?

But it could still be a violation of 12031.

Decoligny
01-24-2010, 9:12 AM
so then whats the story? if it is not "concealed" does that mean you are open carrying a rifle, even though it isnt "open", so technically you'd still be doing something illegal? is there some 3rd category other than open and concealed?

No, you wouldn't be doing anything illegal.

With long guns not being covered in PC 12025, you cannot "illegally" conceal a long gun.

You would be LEGALLY concealing a non-concealable firearm, and unless it was loaded in violation of 12031, it would be perfectly legal.

nrakid88
01-24-2010, 10:01 AM
So even a loaded rifle carried by a sling under a coat is not concealed? Whether is show's or not?


Whoah, dont be carrying loaded though, this still is Cali, and you can't have all the fun.

Decoligny
01-24-2010, 10:48 AM
Whoah, dont be carrying loaded though, this still is Cali, and you can't have all the fun.

Perfectly legal as long as they abide by PC 12031

No loaded carry in any public place in an incorporated city.

No loaded carry in any prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

So, they could legally carry that baby loaded and concealed under a jacket out here in unincorporated Kern County.

nrakid88
01-24-2010, 11:03 AM
Could you explain what incorporated means? I always figured that it meant a county, but perhaps it means a city? And is there any map of unincorporated areas? Hopefully that would show prohibited areas too?

GrizzlyGuy
01-24-2010, 12:03 PM
Could you explain what incorporated means? I always figured that it meant a county, but perhaps it means a city? And is there any map of unincorporated areas? Hopefully that would show prohibited areas too?

See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unincorporated_area):

In law, an unincorporated area is a region of land that is not a part of any municipality. To "incorporate" in this context means to form a municipal corporation, a city or town with its own government. Thus, an unincorporated community is usually not subject to or taxed by a municipal government. Such regions are generally administered by default as a part of larger administrative divisions, such as a township, borough, county, state, province, canton, parish, or country. Occasionally small towns disincorporate, such as when they become fiscally insolvent, and services become the responsibility of a higher administration. An example is Cabazon, California, which disincorporated in 1972.

If you go to the web sites of your city and nearby cities, they will likely have maps showing the city limits. Road maps sometimes also show this info, although they may be less accurate as to the exact positions of the boundaries.

2Bear
01-24-2010, 1:44 PM
You can have an unloaded AK in an unlocked guitar case (needs to be locked if your in a GFSZ) with magazines with rounds in them and it's completely legal.

-Gene

In the interest of the utmost in clarity...

Don't you have to make sure the loaded mags don't, (can't), touch the weapon?

Per the media coverage video, it appeared that one of the guys demonstrating UOC in the San Mateo Peet's had his mag separately holstered so closely to his holstered hg that it looked like they could easily make contact allowing for LE harassment, (like following you during UOC until you pass near a school zone...).

CaliforniaCarry
01-24-2010, 1:48 PM
According to Kel-Tec's website, the SUB-2000 does not meet the OAL requirement. They list it as being 29.5" long when open: http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm

hoffmang
01-24-2010, 1:54 PM
Don't you have to make sure the loaded mags don't, (can't), touch the weapon?


Nope. All you need to do is make sure that magazines with rounds in them are not in the magazine well. In People v. Clark the shotgun rounds were in the stock of the otherwise unloaded shotgun. More here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California) including a link to the actual text of the case.

-Gene

2Bear
01-24-2010, 2:02 PM
walking around in natural disasters

This is a very interesting scenario, and the main reason I built my AR.

Seems that all you need to do after the big one is call 911, and once on hold just say "I'm in mortal fear for my life, Please help. When you arrive I'll be the one with the loaded gun defending myself and mine". Rest assured you won't actually get through to anyone via 911 during a real disaster, but you'll theoretically be recorded while on hold.

It may make sense to (attempt to) do this from a mobile phone as well, for quite likely the land lines will be down, and this way your device should at least provide a record that you attempted to make contact with LE, because you won't get though via the cell phone either.

After you have made the call, you SHOULD be legally entitled to carry your weapon LOADED until LE shows up, which should be in a few weeks or so. Or more likely... never. Wouldn't that be a case, "Excuse ME officer, I called a couple decades ago, still waiting for LE to arrive..."

KylaGWolf
01-25-2010, 12:49 PM
This is a very interesting scenario, and the main reason I built my AR.

Seems that all you need to do after the big one is call 911, and once on hold just say "I'm in mortal fear for my life, Please help. When you arrive I'll be the one with the loaded gun defending myself and mine". Rest assured you won't actually get through to anyone via 911 during a real disaster, but you'll theoretically be recorded while on hold.

It may make sense to (attempt to) do this from a mobile phone as well, for quite likely the land lines will be down, and this way your device should at least provide a record that you attempted to make contact with LE, because you won't get though via the cell phone either.

After you have made the call, you SHOULD be legally entitled to carry your weapon LOADED until LE shows up, which should be in a few weeks or so. Or more likely... never. Wouldn't that be a case, "Excuse ME officer, I called a couple decades ago, still waiting for LE to arrive..."

Question have you ever tried to call 911 from your cell phone? Even harder to get someone to answer your calls then. And then the call goes to the Highway Patrol not the local authorities. And unless something has changed they don't record you when you are on hold so that won't work either.

dantodd
01-25-2010, 1:03 PM
According to Kel-Tec's website, the SUB-2000 does not meet the OAL requirement. They list it as being 29.5" long when open: http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/sub2000.htm

You should read the entire thread before posting. Please review post #15.

2Bear
01-25-2010, 1:34 PM
Question have you ever tried to call 911 from your cell phone? Even harder to get someone to answer your calls then. And then the call goes to the Highway Patrol not the local authorities. And unless something has changed they don't record you when you are on hold so that won't work either.

I have called 911 from my cell phone, it actually got me the Bay Bridge dispatch operator. Apparently cell 911 calls are routed by the location of the receiving tower, so in some instances you'll get CHP, in others local LE operators or regional 911 call centers.

As well, the modern 911 systems apparently do record you on hold, they even apparently record you while they are ringing...

http://boingboing.net/2009/05/04/911-police-officer-r.html

But my point of calling 911 from your cell phone was that the device's internal call log would record that the outgoing call was made, providing you with some form of evidence that you attempted to make contact with LE.

GrizzlyGuy
01-25-2010, 3:28 PM
Don't you have to make sure the loaded mags don't, (can't), touch the weapon?

Nope. All you need to do is make sure that magazines with rounds in them are not in the magazine well. In People v. Clark the shotgun rounds were in the stock of the otherwise unloaded shotgun. More here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Defining_loaded_in_California) including a link to the actual text of the case.

Yup, in the ‘picture-worth-1000-words’ department, these are all legal:

http://www.slingsonly.com/images/LGreadyfiremode_1.jpg

http://www.slingsonly.com/images/LGreadyfireSG_3.jpg

http://media.midwayusa.com/ProductImages/Medium/230112.jpg

YMMV as to whether a LEO will believe those to be legal, but they are.