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4DSJW
01-22-2010, 5:32 PM
After the recent thread about the DOJ officers with no warrant being invited into a home to look at a firearm and then removing the firearm; I have some specific scenario questions because it is unclear to me, and probably a lot of other people, where the legal line is drawn regarding permission enter and their right to search.

1) A LEO comes to my front door and says he is talking to all the neighbors about a neighborhood watch program, he asks if he can come in and talk to me. If I do let him in have I somehow given him permission to search my home without further approval?

2) If a LEO is at my home to investigate a burglary or some other event that has occurred at my home, and I let him in, have I somehow given him permission to search my home without further approval?

3) If I allow a LEO into my home and they see ammunition, a firearm, or an obvious firearm related accessory, does he have probable cause to search my home?

I'm sure that a number of replies will be to NEVER let a LEO into my home. But that does not help to clear up the the specific moment at which my agreement to let a LEO cross the threshold becomes the legal point at which they can do a search without a warrant or my further approval.

TIA!

mtsul
01-22-2010, 5:41 PM
I Could not answer any of this, but I'm very interested in the answer
tag

easy
01-22-2010, 5:43 PM
Any thing or any area in plain sight is subject to Terry search.

kf6tac
01-22-2010, 5:43 PM
Answers for 2) and 3) don't come to mind off-hand, but as to 1):

Permission to enter does not give permission to search, but once he has permission to be in your home, anything that is in plain view is fair game. If anything in plain view gives the LEO probable cause to search, then he can search.

1 SIG fan
01-22-2010, 5:46 PM
The leos who came for my break in were only interested in helping. Now if I had a bunch of dead bodies in the fridge and a stack ofAWs next to it that might be different. Plain sight is your worry. And you'd know what you had laying out

BigDogatPlay
01-22-2010, 5:47 PM
1) A LEO comes to my front door and says he is talking to all the neighbors about a neighborhood watch program, he asks if he can come in and talk to me. If I do let him in have I somehow given him permission to search my home without further approval?

Search the home, no, but anything in plain sight that possession of which is a crime would be his to seize. And if he does see something in plain sight, his ability to search becomes much greater. The whole house would almost certainly require a warrant even at that point.

2) If a LEO is at my home to investigate a burglary or some other event that has occurred at my home, and I let him in, have I somehow given him permission to search my home without further approval?

Yes and no. This is a very open ended question that can't be answered without a lot more meat on the hypothetical.

3) If I allow a LEO into my home and they see ammunition, a firearm, or an obvious firearm related accessory, does he have probable cause to search my home?

Unless the LEO knows, or can form a suspicion that you or someone else there is a prohibited person, or the firearm is clearly illegal to possess (an SBS for instance) then no.

B Strong
01-22-2010, 5:54 PM
After the recent thread about the DOJ officers with no warrant being invited into a home to look at a firearm and then removing the firearm; I have some specific scenario questions because it is unclear to me, and probably a lot of other people, where the legal line is drawn regarding permission enter and their right to search.

1) A LEO comes to my front door and says he is talking to all the neighbors about a neighborhood watch program, he asks if he can come in and talk to me. If I do let him in have I somehow given him permission to search my home without further approval?

No, but if the officer observes an item or situation that gives him probable cause, he can conduct a search then and there, or he can leave, get a warrant, and return.

2) If a LEO is at my home to investigate a burglary or some other event that has occurred at my home, and I let him in, have I somehow given him permission to search my home without further approval?

See above.

3) If I allow a LEO into my home and they see ammunition, a firearm, or an obvious firearm related accessory, does he have probable cause to search my home?

No, unless he can prove that the firearm or ammunition were either illegal, or your possession of the items (felon, parolee in the prohibited class, etc) would be illegal.

I'm sure that a number of replies will be to NEVER let a LEO into my home. But that does not help to clear up the the specific moment at which my agreement to let a LEO cross the threshold becomes the legal point at which they can do a search without a warrant or my further approval.

TIA!


My answers in Bold.

Ron-Solo
01-22-2010, 5:57 PM
After the recent thread about the DOJ officers with no warrant being invited into a home to look at a firearm and then removing the firearm; I have some specific scenario questions because it is unclear to me, and probably a lot of other people, where the legal line is drawn regarding permission enter and their right to search.

1) A LEO comes to my front door and says he is talking to all the neighbors about a neighborhood watch program, he asks if he can come in and talk to me. If I do let him in have I somehow given him permission to search my home without further approval?

No, but if there was something in plain sight that gave gim/her probable cause to go further it's fair game. (Example: narcotics paraphernalia on the kitchen table)

2) If a LEO is at my home to investigate a burglary or some other event that has occurred at my home, and I let him in, have I somehow given him permission to search my home without further approval?

No. We're more interested in catching the turds who broke into your house. We would be looking for signs/evidence of burglary (fingerprints or other things to ID the crook)

3) If I allow a LEO into my home and they see ammunition, a firearm, or an obvious firearm related accessory, does he have probable cause to search my home?

No, not unless we had knowledge that someone who was a prohibited person lived. Owning guns is not illegal. We may get into a good discussion about different guns due to a common interest. :)

I'm sure that a number of replies will be to NEVER let a LEO into my home. But that does not help to clear up the the specific moment at which my agreement to let a LEO cross the threshold becomes the legal point at which they can do a search without a warrant or my further approval.

TIA!

I've been a LEO for almost 32 years now. It is very rare that a situation will evolve into a search. It is usually because of some other criminal activity.

Aloha,

Ron

Fjold
01-22-2010, 5:59 PM
The last 4-5 LEO's who came into my house wanted to see my gunroom and the hunting trophies or else they wanted to compare carry guns and look at my rifles. Then they bum beer off me.





They're all friends of mine

4DSJW
01-22-2010, 6:01 PM
Yes and no. This is a very open ended question that can't be answered without a lot more meat on the hypothetical.

Fair enough. My home has been burglarized, I want to file a report and a LEO has come over. He is in the house taking the report, he see's a shooting related mag on the table and asks if any guns were taken, I say, "No, nothing in that room was involved".

Does the LEO have a legal right to see (search) the room where I keep my firearms simply because I have let him into my home?

BTW, none of these are meant to be trick questions or confuse people. I personally do not have a clear idea as to the exact point at which I give up the right to refuse a search without a warrant.

Thank you to all who reply!

tombinghamthegreat
01-22-2010, 6:02 PM
Pretty much never consent to any searches or incriminate yourself(4&5 amendment) regardless of what they say. That should be enough to keep government officials. Generally if they has to ask or try to pressure you they do not have the power to search.

BigDogatPlay
01-22-2010, 6:05 PM
Fair enough. My home has been burglarized, I want to file a report and a LEO has come over. He is in the house taking the report, he see's a shooting related mag on the table and asks if any guns were taken, I say, "No, nothing in that room was involved".

Does the LEO have a legal right to see (search) the room where I keep my firearms simply because I have let him into my home?

No.

And bear in mind that "seeing" and "searching" are two different things. In both the law and a dictionary. :)

GrizzlyGuy
01-22-2010, 6:36 PM
What RonSolo said, plus this:

If a LEO comes to your home and you haven't requested that he come, step outside to talk to him and do not allow him in your house (even if he says it's cold, needs a drink of water, etc.). It is your choice in terms of whether you actually cooperate and carry on a conversation with him, or you politely and respectfully inform him that you do not wish to answer any questions (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3371590&posted=1#post3371590) (which is your right, always).

Stepping outside provides the following benefits:

1) You minimize the chance of him seeing something incriminating or illegal that you may have in your house. The laws are complicated, you may not even know that something you have is illegal.

2) Should he see something and arrest you inside your house, he can legally search the area around you (e.g., the room you are in, not the entire house) without a warrant. If arrested outside, he'd need a warrant to get into your house, absent exigent circumstances (like a bad guy running around in your house that he needs to pursue).

3) Courts view the threshold of your home with special significance: they are more likely to toss evidence from an illegal search performed within your home than one performed outside of it. But it is still best if you never get into an inside-the-home scenario in the first place.

4DSJW
01-22-2010, 7:03 PM
Thank you for the thoughtful responses. For the record I have no issue with any of the LEO's that have been to my home, 2 events, and they have always been considerate and helpful. Something I really have appreciated.

But I will also note that there are LEO's (most) who spend their careers trying to help the general public and there are LEO's who spend at least some of their time throwing their weight around because they can. They like to be bullies, especially if you do not do as they request. The latter is really the point of this thread.

I wanted to get an idea as to when I lose the legal right to say "No" to a search. It appears that if I let a LEO into my home and it is pristine then there is no issue. However, if there is something that a LEO can justify as probable cause, I am at risk of a search, should they choose to do so.

So please assume that a LEO is in my home to discuss a neighborhood watch or to take a report about my stolen garden gnome collection. He's in a crappy mood for some reason and he see's my shotgun in the corner. He notifies me that a number of firearms have been reported stolen in the area this past week and he is going to do a search, with no warrant and without my permission. Is this legal?

I am not out to break the balls of LEO's here. It appears from the responses that if a LEO is invited into my home, and for whatever reason decides they want to do a search, all they have to do is come up with a plausible probable cause in order for the search to be deemed legal.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

Lagduf
01-22-2010, 7:04 PM
I know I'm not answering the question at hand, but I really must second speaking to law enforcement outside your home.

Had a Sheriff's deputy come to my duplex once about a burglary down the street. I talked to him at length outside my apartment. Overall a good experience with an LEO.

thefifthspeed
01-22-2010, 7:18 PM
Any thing or any area in plain sight is subject to Terry search.

Huh?

A Terry search stems from reasonable suspicion and is a pat down of the outer layers of cloths usually checking for weapons.

If an officer finds something illegal in plain sight you can get arrested on the spot.

To add onto what others have said: the police can get inside your house with a warrant, exigent circumstances, or consent. Conesnt can be given and taken away at any time. So if you say "hey officer come on in", then a minute later feel uncomfortable about it you can take it away. In other words once consent is given the police don't have free reign unless you let them. Like others have said if they find something illegal all bets are off and they don't need consent anymore.

Telperion
01-22-2010, 7:19 PM
Consent to search can also be withdrawn at any time, up to the point where something "interesting" is found.

drdanno84
01-22-2010, 8:21 PM
Local PD were called to my residence by neighbors who complained about my son's loud music during a graduation party at our house. I stepped out of front door and closed it behind me, the first thing they asked was if I still owned
the "registered assault weapons". I replied yes and that they were secured in my gun safe. Apparently they have done their homework and have knowledge of my firearms. They asked if they could speak to my son inside the house, I replied that I as the homeowner and parent would make sure the music level would be lowered to an acceptable level. They agreed and quietly left without incident. As a general rule, I have spoken to several attorney friends about giving consent to enter my residence or vehicle, the general consensus
is to NEVER allow law enforcement officers to enter your home, always close the front door behind you and speak to them outside. If you are asked to exit your vehicle after being stopped, lock the doors and windows and do not allow them to search without a warrant.

BigDogatPlay
01-22-2010, 8:42 PM
I wanted to get an idea as to when I lose the legal right to say "No" to a search. It appears that if I let a LEO into my home and it is pristine then there is no issue. However, if there is something that a LEO can justify as probable cause, I am at risk of a search, should they choose to do so.

No, you are not. A seizure of an illegal item in plain sight does not constitute a search. A half pound bag of weed on your dining room table when you've summoned a LEO to your house for some other matter is not a search. And he does not get to search your whole house based on that without going and getting a warrant unless there are exigent circumstances.

So please assume that a LEO is in my home to discuss a neighborhood watch or to take a report about my stolen garden gnome collection. He's in a crappy mood for some reason and he see's my shotgun in the corner. He notifies me that a number of firearms have been reported stolen in the area this past week and he is going to do a search, with no warrant and without my permission. Is this legal?

No, that would almost certainly be a bad search. However, even though the search might be dirty it's going to be up to a judge to determine, which means you still could get your chestnuts racked pretty hard and several times.

I am not out to break the balls of LEO's here. It appears from the responses that if a LEO is invited into my home, and for whatever reason decides they want to do a search, all they have to do is come up with a plausible probable cause in order for the search to be deemed legal.

Thanks again for your thoughts!

I get that you're not trying to break balls. But I think you are hung up on the notion that once there is the merest suspicion, the door (so to speak) is wide open, and that really is not reality.

Please go back to my first response on the thread as well as this one. Your whole house does not open up to a warrantless search based on a simple observation of an otherwise lawful item (a firearm) in your possession, unless there is some very strong probable cause and some extremely exigent circumstances.

GaryV
01-22-2010, 9:38 PM
So please assume that a LEO is in my home to discuss a neighborhood watch or to take a report about my stolen garden gnome collection. He's in a crappy mood for some reason and he see's my shotgun in the corner. He notifies me that a number of firearms have been reported stolen in the area this past week and he is going to do a search, with no warrant and without my permission. Is this legal?

This has been answered already, but since you asked essentially the same question more than once, even after it was answered, it does seem that you're unclear about what constitutes probable cause.

Think of your hypothetical this way: instead of a shotgun in the corner, and recent gun thefts, let's say that the crime that has occurred recently was rape, and the officer, noticing that you are male, demands you take a cup into the bathroom and bring him back a DNA sample. This would of course be a ridiculous request based simply on the fact that you have a penis (which is not a crime in CA, at least not yet). The point is, just because you are in possession of a legal item that is in some general form similar to one involved in a crime, that does not constitute probable cause.

Probable cause, the level of suspicion necessary to justify a search, means that there would have to be a strong reason to believe that your possession of the item was illegal. Probable cause has to be stronger than mere suspicion, or even "reasonable articulable suspicion". Unless the gun was clearly illegal (SBS for example), it exactly matched one known to be stolen in some unique way other than simply being the same make and model (let's say it had the lawful owner's name clearly inscribed on the stock and that was in plain sight), or the officer knows you're a prohibited person (convicted felon, etc.), the presence of the gun is not probable cause. The fact that a gun could be stolen is not enough. There has to be good reason to actually believe that your particular gun actually is stolen.

justbill5789
01-23-2010, 10:47 AM
Ok, I think we have established the ground rules for probable cause and searches on homes. Let’s say the LEO does see a legal firearm within the residence. For the safety of the LEO, he is going to want to secure the firearm, which I do not blame them. What rights does a law abiding citizen have to not have that firearm taken away? If the LEO insists on impounding the firearm, what rights do we have to protest and what else should we do? Obviously, get a receipt if they take the firearm.

Also, while we are playing the hypothetical game, let’s move it to a motor vehicle. You get pulled over for speeding or a broken tail light, something minor and you are again a law abiding citizen. The officer asks to search your vehicle. Does the LEO have a right to search the vehicle? Let’s say they see something that makes them believe you have firearm in the vehicle, do they have the right to search the vehicle and impound the firearms? Finally, LEO’s are always curious and ask questions. As noted, we keep conversation down to a minimum, but what happens when they get insistent upon you answering their questions and starts to get mad? Finally, what happens when they ask you if you have any firearms in the car and you are coming back from the range (everything of course is legal and you are legally transporting the firearms)? Can they search the car?

GrizzlyGuy
01-23-2010, 11:00 AM
Ok, I think we have established the ground rules for probable cause and searches on homes. Let’s say the LEO does see a legal firearm within the residence. For the safety of the LEO, he is going to want to secure the firearm, which I do not blame them. What rights does a law abiding citizen have to not have that firearm taken away? If the LEO insists on impounding the firearm, what rights do we have to protest and what else should we do? Obviously, get a receipt if they take the firearm.


Unless he has PC to believe the firearm is illegal or was used in a crime, he can't confiscate it without a warrant. If he does, you'd likely need to submit a Law Enforcement Gun Release (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/legrinfo.php) form to DOJ, get the certificate back, and present it to the LEA to reclaim the firearm. See also the stickied If you get in trouble with the law for your guns - PLEASE contact CGF (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=245866) thread.

Also, while we are playing the hypothetical game, let’s move it to a motor vehicle. You get pulled over for speeding or a broken tail light, something minor and you are again a law abiding citizen. The officer asks to search your vehicle. Does the LEO have a right to search the vehicle? Let’s say they see something that makes them believe you have firearm in the vehicle, do they have the right to search the vehicle and impound the firearms? Finally, LEO’s are always curious and ask questions. As noted, we keep conversation down to a minimum, but what happens when they get insistent upon you answering their questions and starts to get mad? Finally, what happens when they ask you if you have any firearms in the car and you are coming back from the range (everything of course is legal and you are legally transporting the firearms)? Can they search the car?

You always have the right to remain silent. Your refusal to answer questions cannot contribute to his formation of probable cause. He may get mad, frustrated, berate you, etc... and that remains true.

Here is a great article on vehicle searches (http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/F09_VEHICLE_SEARCHES.pdf). It takes into account the fairly recent changes from Arizona v. Gant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_v._Gant).

Theseus
01-23-2010, 11:07 AM
Ok, I think we have established the ground rules for probable cause and searches on homes. Letís say the LEO does see a legal firearm within the residence. For the safety of the LEO, he is going to want to secure the firearm, which I do not blame them. What rights does a law abiding citizen have to not have that firearm taken away? If the LEO insists on impounding the firearm, what rights do we have to protest and what else should we do? Obviously, get a receipt if they take the firearm.

Also, while we are playing the hypothetical game, letís move it to a motor vehicle. You get pulled over for speeding or a broken tail light, something minor and you are again a law abiding citizen. The officer asks to search your vehicle. Does the LEO have a right to search the vehicle? Letís say they see something that makes them believe you have firearm in the vehicle, do they have the right to search the vehicle and impound the firearms? Finally, LEOís are always curious and ask questions. As noted, we keep conversation down to a minimum, but what happens when they get insistent upon you answering their questions and starts to get mad? Finally, what happens when they ask you if you have any firearms in the car and you are coming back from the range (everything of course is legal and you are legally transporting the firearms)? Can they search the car?

What? If the cop is in your home and has a problem with the firearm then he can leave or perhaps move the conversation outside.

I have had the police here a few times on "noise" complaints, most every time I was carrying. Not once did they blink an eye at it or grow "concerned".

But that might be because I was courteous.

GaryV
01-23-2010, 11:10 AM
Ok, I think we have established the ground rules for probable cause and searches on homes. Let’s say the LEO does see a legal firearm within the residence. For the safety of the LEO, he is going to want to secure the firearm, which I do not blame them. What rights does a law abiding citizen have to not have that firearm taken away? If the LEO insists on impounding the firearm, what rights do we have to protest and what else should we do? Obviously, get a receipt if they take the firearm.

No, he has no authority to secure the firearm. Unless he has reason to be in the house without having been invited, he is a guest, same as anyone else. If he doesn't like the firearm there, he can leave. Without probable cause to enter the house without consent, he has no powers over your property that any other invited guest would not have.


Also, while we are playing the hypothetical game, let’s move it to a motor vehicle. You get pulled over for speeding or a broken tail light, something minor and you are again a law abiding citizen. The officer asks to search your vehicle. Does the LEO have a right to search the vehicle? Let’s say they see something that makes them believe you have firearm in the vehicle, do they have the right to search the vehicle and impound the firearms? Finally, LEO’s are always curious and ask questions. As noted, we keep conversation down to a minimum, but what happens when they get insistent upon you answering their questions and starts to get mad? Finally, what happens when they ask you if you have any firearms in the car and you are coming back from the range (everything of course is legal and you are legally transporting the firearms)? Can they search the car?

This is a slightly different scenario, because now he has reasonable articulable suspicion that you've broken the law (traffic violation), which essentially makes this a Terry stop. This is different because you no longer have a right to refuse the interaction as you would if you invited him into your home. Instead you are now being legally detained without consent. But without probable cause (with the same standard as in the house) of a further crime, like drugs or ILLEGAL guns, he cannot legally search your car without your consent. He can have you exit the car and pat you down, and as long as you can easily access some part of the car, he can check that area for weapons and secure any he finds, but he cannot search the whole car, particularly areas where you cannot easily access. If you tell him you have guns, in California he may check to see if they're loaded even if they're locked away, but in most states, if they're secured and you can't easily access them, he wouldn't have that authority. Even in California he must know you have them though, by either seeing them or having you tell him. He can't just use suspicion you have guns locked in your trunk as a pretext for searching your trunk. For example, let's say you have some targets with holes in them, a set of ear muffs, and a pair of shooting glasses in the back seat. That may lead him to believe that you have guns in the trunk. But having a gun is not in and of itself illegal, so even probable cause to believe you have one is not probable cause to believe you've committed a crime, and does not authorize a search. He may ask you if you do, but if you don't admit that you do, he doesn't have probable cause to check. And unless he has probable cause to believe any guns he does find are illegal (in which case he should be arresting you), he has no authority to seize them beyond temporarily securing them only for the duration of the stop, for officer safety.

SJgunguy24
01-23-2010, 11:17 AM
This is what happened to me. The cops got into my house for a welfare check on my Mother. They told me they were going to take all of my guns and I couldn't do anything about it. I shut the door for my room and told them they would need a warrant and to GTH out now.
They did the basketball thing, multible officers asking questions at the same time. I focused on one guy and told the others to GTH. I told them I know the law and when they got my Mother out they needed to leave, I stood my ground and didn't back down. They have to work within the bounds of the law, I know this and they knew that I knew and after 3+ hours of badgering they left.
The key IMO is know the law, study their procedures and know everything you can about LEO's and how they work. I back LEO's 99% of the time and i'd risk my life if one of them went down and I could do something to help.
Intimidation and control is part of their play book, and you have to know that. Be respectful but stand your ground, keep everything out of sight if possible.

fullrearview
01-23-2010, 11:20 AM
If Im there to take a burg report for you Im not gonna jack you up unless the afore mentioned stack of bodies is present. Like said before, plain sight is fair game, but discreation is also in play. If you have a firearm out most cops will ask to check it to make sure its empty for their safety.

B Strong
01-23-2010, 11:21 AM
Ok, I think we have established the ground rules for probable cause and searches on homes. Let’s say the LEO does see a legal firearm within the residence. For the safety of the LEO, he is going to want to secure the firearm, which I do not blame them. What rights does a law abiding citizen have to not have that firearm taken away? If the LEO insists on impounding the firearm, what rights do we have to protest and what else should we do? Obviously, get a receipt if they take the firearm.

An officer that observes a firearm in your residence may do nothing (my prior experience) may comment on how cool the particular firearm is (my prior experience) or when observing something that he is unfamilar with may want to examine it out of curiosity (again, my prior experience)

If an officer wishes to confiscate a firearm without effecting an arrest, it's going to be an odd situation to say the least. If an officer observes a weapon that would be considered illegal, he'd have to be able to document the cause (unregistered AW, MG, SBS, SBR suppressor, etc) for the confiscation and I'd imagine you'd be taking a trip as well.

If the officer can't articulate why he's taking the weapon into custody, I'd get a supervisor there right quick, and I'd also have my attorney on an open phone line as well.

The bottom line is that unless the weapon is illegal itself, or there's a crime directly related to the firearm (loaded weapon accesible to minors comes to mind) they can't just "take" your firearm

Also, while we are playing the hypothetical game, let’s move it to a motor vehicle. You get pulled over for speeding or a broken tail light, something minor and you are again a law abiding citizen. The officer asks to search your vehicle. Does the LEO have a right to search the vehicle? Let’s say they see something that makes them believe you have firearm in the vehicle, do they have the right to search the vehicle and impound the firearms? Finally, LEO’s are always curious and ask questions. As noted, we keep conversation down to a minimum, but what happens when they get insistent upon you answering their questions and starts to get mad? Finally, what happens when they ask you if you have any firearms in the car and you are coming back from the range (everything of course is legal and you are legally transporting the firearms)? Can they search the car?

Vehicle code violations themselves do not constitute probable cause to conduct a search. If the violation is serious enough the vehicle could be towed and impounded, which would entail an inventory of the vehicle's contents.

Observing firearms related materials (other than ammunition or parts for illegal firearms, high-cap mags may pass the test, in plain view) does not constitute probable cause.

Example: Back when Jackson Arms was Aimark, a member was pulled over in Foster City, CA. When the driver of the vehicle was producing his DL, the officer observed the Aimark Members ID card. The officer requested to be allowed to search. The driver refused. Long story short, when the patrol supervisor couldn't convince the driver to consent to a search, they sent him on his way.

The answer to every law enforcement question is "there is nothing illegal in my vehicle." and "I do not consent to a search under any circumstances." and have your attorney on speed dial - keep the line open during the encounter or record the officers during the stop with a recorder.



My answers in bold.

Liberty1
01-23-2010, 11:28 AM
Being an officer I will never let another officer into my house for any reason as I don't trust their motivation or competency (in fact I wouldn't open the door and would just talk through the window, IF I even answer the knock.

davescz
01-23-2010, 11:31 AM
had cops try to enter my home, asked if they could come in for a welfare check. I refused, and said we could speak outside. they asked why I didn't want them in my home, I told them the house was such a mess that I didn't want them to see it. they told me that they had seem messy houses before, and that was no big deal to them, I politely said no, and we spoke outside.

one time had code enforcement over (closest we have to the Nazi party here), they had one code-enforcer, and two patrol cars, one cop with hand on holster near the end of my driveway, and three at my door. they didn't like my window covering , really my window covering were not code allowed (I had tarps on the windows while painting a room) they wanted to know why I had my windows covered, then told me my car was parked too close to the house (it was one inch over the limit) they told me if I didn't move my car they would find more code violations. some cops are just born bad, although many are good.

My advise is deny entry! you dont want to grant entry to any cop, you dont know which ones are bad, remember these are total strangers with the power to make life hell for you.

davescz
01-23-2010, 11:32 AM
If Im there to take a burg report for you Im not gonna jack you up unless the afore mentioned stack of bodies is present. Like said before, plain sight is fair game, but discreation is also in play. If you have a firearm out most cops will ask to check it to make sure its empty for their safety.

And I will ask the cop to empty his gun, for my safety.

greg36f
01-23-2010, 11:49 AM
Being an officer I will never let another officer into my house for any reason as I don't trust their motivation or competency (in fact I wouldn't open the door and would just talk through the window, IF I even answer the knock.


Sorry, the whole "I'm afraid to open the door" and "I will just talk through the closed door" just makes you look like a paranoid nut job. How are you going to take a burg report or carry on any sort on conversation through a closed door?

If the officers have a valid reason to come in (Warrant, your wife's blood curdeling scream, suddenly cut off by a shot, ect.) they are coming through that door anyways.

If you are too afraid to simply open the door and talk to a uniformed officer, that's weird.

Open the door, talk to the guy and assert your rights against search and seizure!

justbill5789
01-23-2010, 12:01 PM
I think I understand the home and some of the vehicle legalities. Help me with the vehicle situation, which I am not 100% clear. Please be patient, I am just trying to understand. I get pulled over for speeding. The cop, for whatever reason (and do not focus on that) asks me if I have a gun the vehicle. I answer, officer, I do not have anything illegal in the vehicle. Well, that is going to raise suspicion on his part. He is going to say that is not what I asked you. Again, I make my statement. He then gets mad and keeps asking me and I keep making my statement. He is going to pull me out of the vehicle. He also may say that, me not answering his question made him suspicious so he did an inspection to ensure his safety. Now, my guns are in the trunk, legal and secured per the law. However, I have an AR with a bullet button. He says this is an AW. I now get to try and prove this is legal in CA and start to walk him through the flow chart, which I have with the AR. He says he is going to impound the weapon. Is the inspection legal? Is there an easier way at this other then saying I do not have anything illegal in the car?

dantodd
01-23-2010, 1:58 PM
Sorry, the whole "I'm afraid to open the door" and "I will just talk through the closed door" just makes you look like a paranoid nut job. How are you going to take a burg report or carry on any sort on conversation through a closed door?

If the officers have a valid reason to come in (Warrant, your wife's blood curdeling scream, suddenly cut off by a shot, ect.) they are coming through that door anyways.

If you are too afraid to simply open the door and talk to a uniformed officer, that's weird.

Open the door, talk to the guy and assert your rights against search and seizure!


Look! up in the sky! It's a bird, it's a plane.. No it's "Liberty's point" and you missed it.

pullnshoot25
01-23-2010, 2:20 PM
The leos who came for my break in were only interested in helping. Now if I had a bunch of dead bodies in the fridge and a stack ofAWs next to it that might be different. Plain sight is your worry. And you'd know what you had laying out

Say what?

greg36f
01-23-2010, 2:28 PM
Look! up in the sky! It's a bird, it's a plane.. No it's "Liberty's point" and you missed it.

ok, I'm willing to admit that I missed something. What did I miss?

bohoki
01-23-2010, 3:07 PM
kind of like a vampire if you invite them in you are now powerless against them

BKinzey
01-23-2010, 3:50 PM
I think I understand the home and some of the vehicle legalities. Help me with the vehicle situation, which I am not 100% clear. Please be patient, I am just trying to understand. I get pulled over for speeding. The cop, for whatever reason (and do not focus on that) asks me if I have a gun the vehicle. I answer, officer, I do not have anything illegal in the vehicle. Well, that is going to raise suspicion on his part. He is going to say that is not what I asked you. Again, I make my statement. He then gets mad and keeps asking me and I keep making my statement. He is going to pull me out of the vehicle. He also may say that, me not answering his question made him suspicious so he did an inspection to ensure his safety. Now, my guns are in the trunk, legal and secured per the law. However, I have an AR with a bullet button. He says this is an AW. I now get to try and prove this is legal in CA and start to walk him through the flow chart, which I have with the AR. He says he is going to impound the weapon. Is the inspection legal? Is there an easier way at this other then saying I do not have anything illegal in the car?

And then he takes out his night stick and hits you over the head with it and knocks you out!:eek: Now how are you going to answer his questions when you are out, face down in the mud?:eek:

OK, at this point the officer is going to do what he wants. You should verbally protest and ask for a supervisor but if he continues to ignore you and certainly if you feel threatened start thinking what to do for self preservation. I would think if it's gone this far though he would have cuffed you and put you in the back of his cruiser so just observe all you can and hope he doesn't hall you off to the pokey. Then when it's all over contact a lawyer ASAP.

pullnshoot25
01-23-2010, 3:54 PM
Sorry, the whole "I'm afraid to open the door" and "I will just talk through the closed door" just makes you look like a paranoid nut job. How are you going to take a burg report or carry on any sort on conversation through a closed door?

If the officers have a valid reason to come in (Warrant, your wife's blood curdeling scream, suddenly cut off by a shot, ect.) they are coming through that door anyways.

If you are too afraid to simply open the door and talk to a uniformed officer, that's weird.

Open the door, talk to the guy and assert your rights against search and seizure!

Aren't you just a crockpot full of contradictions...

dantodd
01-23-2010, 5:52 PM
ok, I'm willing to admit that I missed something. What did I miss?

Liberty IS a police officer and knows that when an officer comes on official business it is just that BUSINESS and not a chance to shoot the breeze. It is not wrong that when a police officer goes into a home on official business that his antennae are up and he is on heightened alert, it's a potentially very dangerous situation where he could be ambushed so anything that looks at all out of line will get extra scrutiny. It is simply common sense to not invite potential trouble into your house.

Liberty is essentially saying that, as a police officer, if you invite him into your house he could jam you up for something that is completely innocuous to you but will cause an officer to become suspicious and make for, at the very least, a long night for you.

Meplat
01-23-2010, 6:05 PM
Open the door, talk to the guy and assert your rights against search and seizure!

How very nieve. If officers want in but do not have sufficient reason for a warrant and you open the door they will just barge in and rely on common human courtesy to cause you to give way. You are basically forced to give way or be forced into a belly bumping contest. This is a tactic used often when there is some sort of complaint like loud music. Once in anything they see in plain site is fair game to develope probable cause.

I too would risk my life to help a down LEO, but I am not blind to reality. The real tragedy is that our freedom has eroded to the point that law abiding citizens feel the need to engage in lengthy discussions about how to best protect themselves from an overbearing government.:(

GaryV
01-23-2010, 7:22 PM
I think I understand the home and some of the vehicle legalities. Help me with the vehicle situation, which I am not 100% clear. Please be patient, I am just trying to understand. I get pulled over for speeding. The cop, for whatever reason (and do not focus on that) asks me if I have a gun the vehicle. I answer, officer, I do not have anything illegal in the vehicle. Well, that is going to raise suspicion on his part. He is going to say that is not what I asked you. Again, I make my statement. He then gets mad and keeps asking me and I keep making my statement. He is going to pull me out of the vehicle. He also may say that, me not answering his question made him suspicious so he did an inspection to ensure his safety. Now, my guns are in the trunk, legal and secured per the law. However, I have an AR with a bullet button. He says this is an AW. I now get to try and prove this is legal in CA and start to walk him through the flow chart, which I have with the AR. He says he is going to impound the weapon. Is the inspection legal? Is there an easier way at this other then saying I do not have anything illegal in the car?

The problem is that you are positing a scenario where the officer goes beyond his legal authority and then asking us to solve the problem of how you avoid an officer who is willing to break the law, or so ignorant of it that he will anyway. No, the search (it's not an inspection if he's going into your trunk based on "suspicion") is not legal without your consent. He may not like your answer to his question, but the law is very clear that 1) you are not required to answer the question AT ALL, let alone to his satisfaction, and 2) his suspicion based on your refusal to answer the question to his satisfaction is not probable cause for a search. Because he is legally detaining you, he can pat you down for weapons, but on exiting the car you could simply roll up the windows and lock the doors behind you. Since you cannot then easily access any weapons that may be inside, he cannot justify searching inside any part of your car for "officer safety", and even if that action makes him "suspicious" (angry doesn't matter, because that is never any legal grounds for any action), it isn't remotely close to probable cause, so he cannot use it as a basis for a search.

Now, assuming he's going to ignore all this very well established law and violate your rights anyway, there's absolutely nothing you can do at the moment to stop him, at least not without getting yourself beat down, tazed, or shot - and if you're still alive, arrested. If he then, after illegally searching your car, wants to arrest you on AW charges even though all you have is a legal OLL, you're going to jail. All you can do if any of this comes to pass is get a good lawyer. No, there's not an easier way if you do not want your car searched. You either stand up for your rights, even if the situation gets tense, or you don't. If you don't, and an officer wants to violate them, he will. Period.

bohoki
01-23-2010, 8:23 PM
How very nieve. If officers want in but do not have sufficient reason for a warrant and you open the door they will just barge in and rely on common human courtesy to cause you to give way. You are basically forced to give way or be forced into a belly bumping contest.


boy i miss the speakeasy doors

greg36f
01-23-2010, 10:12 PM
Aren't you just a crockpot full of contradictions...


Hey Nate, how about just once you say something useful rather that a simplistic, snide, sarcastic comment that is designed to show how smart you are.

pullnshoot25
01-23-2010, 10:21 PM
Hey Nate, how about just once you say something useful rather that a simplistic, snide, sarcastic comment that is designed to show how smart you are.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Also, if I explained everything out for the umpteenth time, it would just be a drain on my time and have no effective end.

greg36f
01-23-2010, 10:23 PM
How very nieve. If officers want in but do not have sufficient reason for a warrant and you open the door they will just barge in and rely on common human courtesy to cause you to give way. You are basically forced to give way or be forced into a belly bumping contest. This is a tactic used often when there is some sort of complaint like loud music. Once in anything they see in plain site is fair game to develope probable cause.

I too would risk my life to help a down LEO, but I am not blind to reality. The real tragedy is that our freedom has eroded to the point that law abiding citizens feel the need to engage in lengthy discussions about how to best protect themselves from an overbearing government.:(




Sorry, I'm just not there yet. If you knock and you are not an obvious threat, I will open my door and speak to you.

I know my rights and I will not intimidated into giving them up. Just because I open the door, it does not give you a right to come in.

I do not think that we are at a point in this country that we have to be to afraid to open our doors and speak to someone.

If that's naive, then so be it.

pullnshoot25
01-23-2010, 10:26 PM
Aaah, greg36f is a cop. That explains a great deal.

greg36f
01-23-2010, 10:27 PM
Brevity is the soul of wit.

Also, if I explained everything out for the umpteenth time, it would just be a drain on my time and have no effective end.

Ahhhhh....You just did it again.....

One day the rest of us will be as smart and as revered as you and I guess that at that point we will all understand your words grasshopper..........

All bow to your wisdom....

pullnshoot25
01-23-2010, 10:31 PM
Ahhhhh....You just did it again.....

One day the rest of us will be as smart and as revered as you and I guess that at that point we will all understand your words grasshopper..........

All bow to your wisdom....

The search button (pun intended) will do just fine. Any post of mine about the 4th amendment should quell what questions you have.

greg36f
01-23-2010, 10:33 PM
Aaah, greg36f is a cop. That explains a great deal.



What does explain Nate? Why are my words worthless and Liberty's words wise?

You complain that people tend to stereotype you and your cause (The 2nd amendment, which I also hold dear), but you throw the cop stereotype around with abandon.

Grow up, itís a big complex world out there. Your narrow view of ďus and themĒ is limiting.

B Strong
01-23-2010, 10:39 PM
Greg, your questions have been answered.

pullnshoot25
01-23-2010, 10:57 PM
What does explain Nate? Why are my words worthless and Liberty's words wise?

You complain that people tend to stereotype you and your cause (The 2nd amendment, which I also hold dear), but you throw the cop stereotype around with abandon.

Grow up, itís a big complex world out there. Your narrow view of ďus and themĒ is limiting.

Take my statement for what you feel it is worth.

I don't recall complaining about that particular subject. However, I welcome you (or anyone, for that matter) to refresh my memory.

Seeing as how I have had several cops point guns at or illegally grope around my posterior, I reserve the right to be anal.

Meplat
01-23-2010, 11:17 PM
Been thinking about that myself. It is not quite as rude as a camera and intercom, IMHO.:43:

boy i miss the speakeasy doors

Meplat
01-23-2010, 11:24 PM
You will get there.:)


Sorry, I'm just not there yet. If you knock and you are not an obvious threat, I will open my door and speak to you.

I know my rights and I will not intimidated into giving them up. Just because I open the door, it does not give you a right to come in.

I do not think that we are at a point in this country that we have to be to afraid to open our doors and speak to someone.

If that's naive, then so be it.

Meplat
01-24-2010, 12:57 AM
Question 1: Are you LE?

Question 2: If so, have you ever used the tactic of assuming an opened door was OK to walk right through?

Question 3: If you have never done that, how long have you been in LE?

:rolleyes:


What does explain Nate? Why are my words worthless and Liberty's words wise?

You complain that people tend to stereotype you and your cause (The 2nd amendment, which I also hold dear), but you throw the cop stereotype around with abandon.

Grow up, itís a big complex world out there. Your narrow view of ďus and themĒ is limiting.

ALSystems
01-24-2010, 3:56 AM
Unless he has PC to believe the firearm is illegal or was used in a crime, he can't confiscate it without a warrant. If he does, you'd likely need to submit a Law Enforcement Gun Release (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/legrinfo.php) form to DOJ, get the certificate back, and present it to the LEA to reclaim the firearm. See also the stickied If you get in trouble with the law for your guns - PLEASE contact CGF (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=245866) thread.

A legal firearm can't be confiscated without a warrant. The problem is that if the PC confiscates it anyway, the burden is on you to retrieve it with the PC paying no price for an illegal confiscation. :( I don't believe most PCs are a jerks but some are. This can lead to a lot of unnecessary and expensive trouble.

Let's say the confiscated gun was your grandfather's WWII 1911 handgun which you inherited in 1988 and never filed any transfer papers because they weren't required then. Would the LEGR will be rejected because your name is not the listed owner or there is none listed? How do you get it back then?

GrizzlyGuy
01-24-2010, 5:55 AM
A legal firearm can't be confiscated without a warrant. The problem is that if the PC confiscates it anyway, the burden is on you to retrieve it with the PC paying no price for an illegal confiscation. :( I don't believe most PCs are a jerks but some are. This can lead to a lot of unnecessary and expensive trouble.


It's true that they shouldn't confiscate a legal firearm, but they sometimes do. See here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=206123) for example. Rather than being a jerk, they could be acting on good faith based on an incorrect understanding of the law. LEOs aren't required to know the law. In any case, it can lead to a lot of expense and trouble as you say (such as this story (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=254970), the resolution of the above linked-to example)


Let's say the confiscated gun was your grandfather's WWII 1911 handgun which you inherited in 1988 and never filed any transfer papers because they weren't required then. Would the LEGR will be rejected because your name is not the listed owner or there is none listed? How do you get it back then?

If it had never been registered by your grandfather, DOJ would assume that it was yours and had never been registered (nor required to be). They would send you the certificate and you'd be able to get it back.

If it was registered to your grandfather, they wouldn't send you the certificate since you aren't him, and I don't know how they would proceed at that point. On it's face, it would appear to them that an illegal act had likely been committed: you either stole the gun or you failed to register it (as required by law) when it was transferred to you.