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easy
01-22-2010, 5:27 PM
Based on info from another forum:

Guy sells deceased fathers motorhome because it was a pile of junk. Seller supposedly cleaned out MH. Buyer calls and claims to have found handgun in MH and offers to sell it back.

Who is the legal and rightful owner of said firearm? Seller or buyer? At this point there has been no PPT or DROS.

Cokebottle
01-22-2010, 5:30 PM
Purchaser of the motorhome illegally obtained it through an illegal transfer.

Joe
01-22-2010, 5:31 PM
If the firearms was never legally transfered it is still the property of the original owner.

Scratch705
01-22-2010, 5:32 PM
i would this the original seller is owner, since the handgun hasn't been legally transferred to the buyer?

i think of it as this, if the seller called the cops and said his handgun was stolen and gave them the serial #, and the buyer is found with the gun. the buyer would have no proof that the handgun is his no matter what is implied in terms of "what was in the RV" is buyer's at time of purchase that is usually associated with any type of property sales.

cc4usmc
01-22-2010, 5:32 PM
Shady *** buyer.

Jason762
01-22-2010, 5:33 PM
Was this in California?

Technically if it was outside CA, then it'd be kosher as a PTP without paperwork, etc is legal. Since he bought the MH and it's contents, the pistol is his.

I'm not a lawyer so I could be seriously mistaken

mtsul
01-22-2010, 5:39 PM
Was this in California?

Technically if it was outside CA, then it'd be kosher as a PTP without paperwork, etc is legal. Since he bought the MH and it's contents, the pistol is his.

I'm not a lawyer so I could be seriously mistaken

I agree I wonder if its true or not

easy
01-22-2010, 5:41 PM
Yes CA.

B Strong
01-22-2010, 6:03 PM
Based on info from another forum:

Guy sells deceased fathers motorhome because it was a pile of junk. Seller supposedly cleaned out MH. Buyer calls and claims to have found handgun in MH and offers to sell it back.

Who is the legal and rightful owner of said firearm? Seller or buyer? At this point there has been no PPT or DROS.

LOL! I knew an old-timer (now deceased) that sold his pick-up without removing the Smith model 10 2" from under the front seat.

He went to the buyer and explained, the buyer opened the truck and the piece was still there.

Rob454
01-22-2010, 6:05 PM
The gun still belongs to the original owner. As for the buyer calling and offering to "sell" it back to me its BS. the buyer should simply just give it back
He did not knowingly purchase the motor home with the gun as a part of the motor home and the seller was not selling the gun with the motor home. Simply put the gun is not part of the motor home. its simply a object placed in the motor home. i understand all the finders keepers BS, but if you know the owner and you can return the item its only right to do so.
I would of called it stolen which is what it was and let the buyer deal with the legal ramifications.
on a side note dishonest people like that IMO lose more than they gain.

Ron-Solo
01-22-2010, 6:15 PM
Too many people get caught up on the "legal technicalities" of the issue and forget the most basic thing:

What is the right thing to do?

Have we lost our moral compass here? When you look at it that way, there was no intention to sell the handgun, and quite clearly it belongs to the seller.

rromeo
01-22-2010, 6:18 PM
It's amazing how a call to the Sheriff's department can help people change their minds quickly. Often, it's just the call.

Lagduf
01-22-2010, 6:50 PM
Yeah, all the seller has to do is call the buyer and tell him he is illegally possessing that weapon.

If this was any other state he should just keep it.

Does the seller actually want the firearm?

Mr. Beretta
01-22-2010, 8:23 PM
The gun still belongs to the original owner. As for the buyer calling and offering to "sell" it back to me its BS. the buyer should simply just give it back
He did not knowingly purchase the motor home with the gun as a part of the motor home and the seller was not selling the gun with the motor home. Simply put the gun is not part of the motor home. its simply a object placed in the motor home. i understand all the finders keepers BS, but if you know the owner and you can return the item its only right to do so.
I would of called it stolen which is what it was and let the buyer deal with the legal ramifications.
on a side note dishonest people like that IMO lose more than they gain.



Ding Ding Ding.....................The correct answer! Thank you Rob!

wagonmaster
01-22-2010, 9:25 PM
Since its CA heres a poss issue. If the gun was registered I dont know if upon death what the status of the gun would be, as the son is not the registered owner nor has he been afforded the opportunity to reg it with the state. Its a theft of found property you can get the police involved which may result in the guys arrest and recovery of the gun, but dont be suprised if you still dont get the gun back. The agency will want it distroyed.

M. Sage
01-22-2010, 9:39 PM
Purchaser of the motorhome illegally obtained it through an illegal transfer.

Depends on the state.

nacholibredooche
01-22-2010, 10:43 PM
Complex issue - but I would actually disagree with those who suggest the gun is still legally owned by the seller. Given the seller was not the legal owner in the first place and the property (motor home) was sold as-is (with the gun and anything else the buyer finds stowed away). This may be the basis for an interesting legal argument.

In the end - "what's the right thing to do?" should prevail - but when LE, lawyers and judges get invloved, the right thing to do is typically forgotten.

socal2310
01-22-2010, 10:49 PM
The guy tried to pull this in California?! Wow, if that happened to me, I'd be really tempted to request the offer in writing and then present the letter to the police. Of course, that depends on the jurisdiction, some DA's might run with it and good luck ever getting the "evidence" back.

Ryan

Never mind, I misread the original post. I wouldn't involve the police under any circumstances if I actually wanted the gun.

lorax3
01-22-2010, 10:54 PM
I would let him know that if his property is not returned immediately it will be reported stolen.

A person like this however is not very honest. Not sure if I would want to meet up with them again knowing they have my gun without any 'backup'.

Meplat
01-22-2010, 11:03 PM
Yours is the simple, honest, principled, moral position. The position of lawtwisters (lawyers) may very.:p

The gun still belongs to the original owner. As for the buyer calling and offering to "sell" it back to me its BS. the buyer should simply just give it back
He did not knowingly purchase the motor home with the gun as a part of the motor home and the seller was not selling the gun with the motor home. Simply put the gun is not part of the motor home. its simply a object placed in the motor home. i understand all the finders keepers BS, but if you know the owner and you can return the item its only right to do so.
I would of called it stolen which is what it was and let the buyer deal with the legal ramifications.
on a side note dishonest people like that IMO lose more than they gain.

joelberg
01-23-2010, 12:47 AM
I'd say that the seller screwed up here and has now caused a huge problem for the buyer of the motorhome. I think the buyer should be a nice guy and just give it back, but the seller should consider the problem he created and offer to give a small monetary donation to the buyer of the motorhome to ease the difficulties created. Not a huge donation, certainly not even half the value of the pistol, but just a small one to say "I'm sorry for unexpectedly giving you a huge problem".

50BMGBOB
01-23-2010, 1:14 AM
Several years ago I bought a travel trailer from a guy I worked with in-laws. Cleaning it out I found a loaded Berreta. I unloaded it and took it back to them. The guy I worked with said I should have kept it but I felt what's right is right.

On that same note, a friend bought a car at a police auction and found a handgun in it. Not knowing if it had been used in a crime he called and turned it in. After checking to make sure it was clean he was able to get it back and keep it. Of course, this was a many years ago in a rural county and he had them add it to his concealed carry permit.

mej16489
01-23-2010, 9:05 AM
If the buyer is a big enough douche to try to sell it back to the seller, he's likely to toss it in a storm drain or something as soon as the law is involved.

taloft
01-23-2010, 9:27 AM
I'd just give it back with some advice on how to register it. Then again, I try not to be a scumbag. I personally wouldn't want to be the type of person that capitalizes on the mistakes of my fellow man. Watching some on here trying to justify the buyers position is comedy. What is legal isn't always what is right. Sometimes you just have to follow your heart. That's my take on it.

Monoz
01-23-2010, 9:43 AM
Similar but not identical scenario:

A self-storage business has gone bankrupt and is closing down. As part of the closing process they auction off all abandoned property from storage units with unpaid bills.

You purchase, sight unseen, the contents of a storage unit. You transport the contents to your house. You don't get around to completely inspecting the contents for over a year.

Upon complete inspection you discover that your purchase included six handguns. All the handguns are on the roster.

What happens next?

davescz
01-23-2010, 9:53 AM
Complex issue - but I would actually disagree with those who suggest the gun is still legally owned by the seller. Given the seller was not the legal owner in the first place and the property (motor home) was sold as-is (with the gun and anything else the buyer finds stowed away). This may be the basis for an interesting legal argument.

In the end - "what's the right thing to do?" should prevail - but when LE, lawyers and judges get invloved, the right thing to do is typically forgotten.

the gun may not have been registered to teh seller of the motor home, but htta dont mean it is not his property. older hand guns that have been in family hands for a long time may wellnot be registered yet still belong to the owner. there was once a day when a gun could be bought with out registration. (we were once a free nation of laws that were respected) at one time a bad law was passed requireing registration of guns that where purchased, guns already purchased did not require registration.

just becuase this gun is not registered does nto mean the motor home seller is not the rightful owner. I know of folks with un-registered hand guns, they have owned them for decadses, and they are perfectly legal and belong to them.

one may question the legality of who owns the gun now. I am mixed on this, as the seller did sell the motor home, and he failed to clean it out, the buyer did purchase the mnotor home, and presumably all that was in it.

I have bought cars, and found money, cassette tapes, glasses and such hidden in the car, in the trunk, under seats, i never once thought to return them, as I figured it came with the purchase.
reigistering the gun maybe difficult however, what would be the laws ont hat.

for that mater how does one legally transfer a hand gun that was never registered before?

say you buy an old mining claim, one that is supposendly no good, and you find gold there, does the seller have a right to the gold just becuase he did know it was there when he sold?

SteveH
01-24-2010, 8:21 AM
Too many people get caught up on the "legal technicalities" of the issue and forget the most basic thing:

What is the right thing to do?

Have we lost our moral compass here? When you look at it that way, there was no intention to sell the handgun, and quite clearly it belongs to the seller.

The right thing to do IMO is live up to the original terms of the sale. He bought the junky old motorhome and everything in it because the seller was too lazy to clean it out first. The seller clearly wanted the buyer to deal with the cleanup.

Meplat
01-24-2010, 9:11 AM
Similar but not identical scenario:

A self-storage business has gone bankrupt and is closing down. As part of the closing process they auction off all abandoned property from storage units with unpaid bills.

You purchase, sight unseen, the contents of a storage unit. You transport the contents to your house. You don't get around to completely inspecting the contents for over a year.

Upon complete inspection you discover that your purchase included six handguns. All the handguns are on the roster.

What happens next?

A celibration!

Meplat
01-24-2010, 9:18 AM
Registration has never been passed into law in CA, they just do it anyway.the gun may not have been registered to teh seller of the motor home, but htta dont mean it is not his property. older hand guns that have been in family hands for a long time may wellnot be registered yet still belong to the owner. there was once a day when a gun could be bought with out registration. (we were once a free nation of laws that were respected) at one time a bad law was passed requireing registration of guns that where purchased, guns already purchased did not require registration.

just becuase this gun is not registered does nto mean the motor home seller is not the rightful owner. I know of folks with un-registered hand guns, they have owned them for decadses, and they are perfectly legal and belong to them.

one may question the legality of who owns the gun now. I am mixed on this, as the seller did sell the motor home, and he failed to clean it out, the buyer did purchase the mnotor home, and presumably all that was in it.

I have bought cars, and found money, cassette tapes, glasses and such hidden in the car, in the trunk, under seats, i never once thought to return them, as I figured it came with the purchase.
reigistering the gun maybe difficult however, what would be the laws ont hat.

for that mater how does one legally transfer a hand gun that was never registered before?



say you buy an old mining claim, one that is supposendly no good, and you find gold there, does the seller have a right to the gold just becuase he did know it was there when he sold?

davescz
01-24-2010, 9:27 AM
Registration has never been passed into law in CA, they just do it anyway.

what do you mean by that, did the state fail to legally make the law? I am very intersted in this aspect. i agree that registration is Un-constitutional ("shall not infringe") how is registration not passed into law in Calif. yet we still must register new hand guns???

gravedigger
01-24-2010, 10:27 AM
I guess I'm "in a different place" on this. (VERY 'California' :D )

1. The seller might not have known that the dad even owned a gun.

2. DAD might have hid it in the motorhome because he knew his son shouldn't have access to a gun.

3. The gun was probably old, and purchased before Commiefornia was sold to the Socialist Republic, so there is probably no record that dad even purchased it.

4. In this state, where the anti's are well .. just NUTS, one can see certain benefits to owning a gun that no one knows about, and so can everyone else here.

5. Not knowing the history of the gun, I'd stay as far away from it as possible. God forbid, the seller takes it back, a ballistics check is done for some reason (seller shoots a home invader, etc.) and ballistics shows that it was previously used to kill four cops, and there is NO RECORD that dad ever owned it, and the sleazy buyer of course knows NOTHING about any "gun found in the motorhome?"

6. The gun's presence gives no indication that "dad" didn't buy it from Guido selling handguns out of the trunk of a '66 chevy Impala down on Martin Luther King Street.

7. If "dad" bought a used motorhome, even DAD might not have known it was there. How does buyer OR seller explain possession of a gun that was NOT registerred to DAD, that killed four cops, that cannot be connected to the motorhome with a paper trail?

8. Unless buyer or seller are condemned to live in Commiefornia for all eternity, the ownership of the gun would become a moot point, should the person in possession of the gun MOVE to a free state.

9. If the gun (not described) is nice, and there are parts that can be used on other guns while tossing or destroying the serialized frame, the gun just disappears into the ether.

10. Dad often loaned out his motorhome to business partners and friends. Gun mysteriously apears in motorhome after a crime has been committed. Evidence is discovered long after dad is gone.

11. Dad's ex-business partner kils his wife and decides to frame dad for the crime, but business partner dies before motorhome is sold. The gun is never discovered ... until now.

12. Four cops are killed right near where dad was "vacationing" back in '69. Family called dad to make sure he was okay. Dad replied, "Everything is fine! Now don't you worry." In retrospect you wonder, did he really say, "Everything is fine now. Don't you worry!"

13. Dad picked up a hitch-hiker on his way home from the last fishing trip. He was pulled over by the cops, and the hitch-hiker ditched the gun in panic, never having an opportunity to retrieve it again before the ride ended.

14. Since seller didn't know about the existence of a gun in the motorhome, It IS possible that BUYER made up the story and is just trying to make some money (more than he could in a 'Gun Buy Back' program) off of selling a gun HE illegally owns, using the "found in the motorhome I just purchased and YOU just cleaned" story to cover his tracks in case the gun can be linked to a crime.

As for the six guns in the self-storage unit, all of the above applies.

gunn
01-25-2010, 10:00 AM
I guess I'm "in a different place" on this. (VERY 'California' :D )
14. Since seller didn't know about the existence of a gun in the motorhome, It IS possible that BUYER made up the story and is just trying to make some money (more than he could in a 'Gun Buy Back' program) off of selling a gun HE illegally owns, using the "found in the motorhome I just purchased and YOU just cleaned" story to cover his tracks in case the gun can be linked to a crime.


I'm willing to take a different view: a deals a deal. Old people like squirrelling money and other valuables away vs. putting it in a bank. If it was my parents RV and they passed on, you better believe I'm going to tear through it to make sure I've recovered 100% of my inheritance. If this seller didn't do it, well he's a chump.

* The motorhome sale included anything and everything in it. That includes whatever vermin, trash, and guns are inside the box.

* Ever hear the stories of people buying ratty old paintings/violins/etc and it turns out that it's some piece of artwork? This pops up on Antiques Roadshow and on the newsfeeds every year or so. Do you hear of them trying to give it back to the seller? Of course not. A deals a deal.

* Now, this gun could have been a keepsake of the seller's dads. IMO, the buyer is doing the seller a favor by offering to sell it back to him. As it stands now though, as far as I'm concerned its now the property of the buyer.

* Finally, the seller is not the owner of record for the gun. If I was the buyer, I'd likely contact the police and ask if there was an issue with the gun (like it was used in a crime). If not, I'd personally register it. I believe other posts have come up about registering guns that weren't transferred 100% cleanly. From what I remember from these other posts, the CALDOJ cares more that the gun is registered than anything else.

As for the last poster's comment, if a buyer was making up a story to chisel money out of the deal... it's up to the seller to see if he wants the gun "back".

In a similar situation, have you ever found a cell phone or ipod snowboarding/skiing/on the street? Living in SF and being an avid snowboarder, I've probably picked up a phone a year. Each and every time, I've made an effort to find the original owner (I think I'm batting 4 out of 5). How is this situation different? IMO, there was no transaction between the original owner and I.
-g

Scratch705
01-25-2010, 1:23 PM
5. Not knowing the history of the gun, I'd stay as far away from it as possible. God forbid, the seller takes it back, a ballistics check is done for some reason (seller shoots a home invader, etc.) and ballistics shows that it was previously used to kill four cops, and there is NO RECORD that dad ever owned it, and the sleazy buyer of course knows NOTHING about any "gun found in the motorhome?"


someone has been watching too much tv crime dramas..... ballistics check done in real life can't determine which specific gun it was fired from, only at best the model of gun.

and also about all your other #'s that infer to "evidence". the only way the cops would even care for the gun is if it was reported stolen with the serial # given. or else it is just another gun.

Mitch
01-25-2010, 2:12 PM
Suddenly because it's a gun he found the buyer tosses his ethics out the window and agonizes over whether to keep it our not?

Let's make this an even simpler problem: supposing it was a watch? Or a piece of jewelry, or a camera? Would the buyer think twice about calling the seller back to arrange a return?

Or is he really that much of a douche?

sighere
10-01-2010, 7:07 AM
You can only be considered a "buyer in due course" if you take possession without notice of any encumbrance on a piece of property. Here, the bargain was a motor home, not a gun. Therefore you have "notice" when you find the gun. At this point, if you keep it, it's larceny (taking and carrying away the property of another with the intent to deprive him of that property forever)

Zdiddy
10-01-2010, 7:31 AM
What if the buyers son found the gun in the motorhome and shot himself or someone else, could the buyer call the seller and have him pay expenses?

Like they say finders keepers....

ocspeedracer
10-01-2010, 7:43 AM
Similar but not identical scenario:

A self-storage business has gone bankrupt and is closing down. As part of the closing process they auction off all abandoned property from storage units with unpaid bills.

You purchase, sight unseen, the contents of a storage unit. You transport the contents to your house. You don't get around to completely inspecting the contents for over a year.

Upon complete inspection you discover that your purchase included six handguns. All the handguns are on the roster.

What happens next?

This is easy, do the $19 registration twice (3 on each), don't do that, move and don't have state saying you should do that.

Is there a law on the books in CA compelling you to register a handgun? What's the penalty for not? It would be hard if not impossible to get them back from LEO's if you got them confiscated but other than that what's the risk?

I'm sorry but if I found something in something I bought as is and they arn't worthless family photos, I'm keeping what I find.

dantodd
10-01-2010, 7:45 AM
necropost that was revived by spam. All issues are long ago done and gone.

QuarterBoreGunner
10-01-2010, 7:57 AM
necropost that was revived by spam. All issues are long ago done and gone.

Correct. Locking it up.