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View Full Version : how would you handle traffic stop while UOCing?


stan
01-22-2010, 4:33 PM
What would the right course of action be? obviously different than while walking around, as it isn't in obliviously plain view, and you're within your vehicle? is there some sort of gentle way to make sure the LEO is not surprised or caught off guard?

loditt
01-22-2010, 4:40 PM
both hands on the wheel and dont do something stupid?

TregoMark
01-22-2010, 4:46 PM
Both hands on steering wheel. After officer greets you and asks for your CDL, say, "Before I give you my CDL, I need to tell you I have an unloaded pistol on my right/left side in a holster on my belt." At that point, the officer will must likely have you exit your vehicle and perform the usual check of the weapon to determine whether or not it's loaded.

Cokebottle
01-22-2010, 4:48 PM
Open carry is OPEN carry.

Don't sit in your car with the gun still holstered on your hip... it then most likely becomes concealed.

Lay it on the passenger seat so it IS in plain view.

As far as how to handle it, follow the officer's instructions. He will most likely conduct an "e" check to verify that it is unloaded.

cc4usmc
01-22-2010, 4:50 PM
Another one of these threads eh?

Edit: Refer to sig.

TregoMark
01-22-2010, 5:02 PM
Another one of these threads eh?


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=261725

JDoe
01-22-2010, 5:11 PM
Another one of these threads eh?

They call it a forum for a reason. If it wasn't a forum where people are supposed to engage in dialogue they would have blocked posting and called it CalgunWicki or something like that. :p

mtsul
01-22-2010, 5:44 PM
They call it a forum for a reason. If it wasn't a forum where people are supposed to engage in dialogue they would have blocked posting and called it CalgunWicki or something like that. :p

+++10000:p

1 SIG fan
01-22-2010, 5:47 PM
Trick question. That wouldn't happen because we were asked not to UOC :)

lorax3
01-22-2010, 5:49 PM
I would hope you are not driving around in urban areas. The chance of a 626.9 violation in urban areas is way too likely.

Other than that, I would treat it the same as a CCW stop. (I say this as many CCW's require you to immediately notify an officer if you are pulled over)

Keep your hands on the wheel, tell the officer you have a firearm and you are not going to move until he tells you to.

I do not tell him because I have a gun, I tell him because I do not want a traffic ticket. :)

CitaDeL
01-22-2010, 5:50 PM
Open carry is OPEN carry.

Don't sit in your car with the gun still holstered on your hip... it then most likely becomes concealed.
Lay it on the passenger seat so it IS in plain view.

As far as how to handle it, follow the officer's instructions. He will most likely conduct an "e" check to verify that it is unloaded.

FUD.

In the event you are involved in a officer intiated traffic stop, do not touch your firearm.

12025 (f) states plainly that a handgun carried openly on a belt holster is not concealed. Being inside a car does not change this subsection.

Lone_Gunman
01-22-2010, 5:55 PM
I would be LUCC in a vehicle. That's how I would handle it.

Cokebottle
01-22-2010, 6:04 PM
In the event you are involved in a officer intiated traffic stop, do not touch your firearm.
I agree with that.

My point was that when UOCing, to place the gun on the seat when entering the car... not when you see the gumball machine light up.

GrizzlyGuy
01-22-2010, 6:24 PM
I would handle it like this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3371590&posted=1#post3371590), right after I switched on the audio recorder on my iPhone (which I would actually do prior to pulling over). If he has a problem with my lawfully carried firearm or the fact that my hands were doing something (switching on the recorder) prior to the stop... that's his problem.

Doheny
01-22-2010, 6:36 PM
...If he has a problem with my lawfully carried firearm or the fact that my hands were doing something (switching on the recorder) prior to the stop... that's his problem.

...Something tells me he'd make it your problem if you decided to play the "I'm not going to talk to you" game. Carrying a gun comes with responsibilities; answering some basic questions from the police if stopped is one of them.

Cokebottle
01-22-2010, 6:40 PM
...Something tells me he'd make it your problem if you decided to play the "I'm not going to talk to you" game. Carrying a gun comes with responsibilities; answering some basic questions from the police if stopped is one of them.
Hence, the NEED to carry a voice recorder.
What you describe is a violation of 4A rights, prompted by his desire that you give up your 5A rights.
Without the voice recorder, it's your word against his and who wins?
With the recorder, it's a fair ballgame.

GrizzlyGuy
01-22-2010, 6:51 PM
...Something tells me he'd make it your problem if you decided to play the "I'm not going to talk to you" game. Carrying a gun comes with responsibilities; answering some basic questions from the police if stopped is one of them.

According to our Bill of Rights, I have no obligation or responsibility to speak with, or cooperate with, agents of the state. So I don't. Neither does my wife or friends, I've trained them all well. :D

Stoner
01-22-2010, 10:02 PM
sounds like "his problem" is about to become "your problem"

I would handle it like this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3371590&posted=1#post3371590), right after I switched on the audio recorder on my iPhone (which I would actually do prior to pulling over). If he has a problem with my lawfully carried firearm or the fact that my hands were doing something (switching on the recorder) prior to the stop... that's his problem.

Cokebottle
01-22-2010, 10:21 PM
sounds like "his problem" is about to become "your problem"
And if it does, the favor is returned.

File a formal complaint, and don't accept the supervisor's begging "If you get a personal verbal apology, will you withdraw the complaint?"

NO!

The first time you hang paper on a cop, you'll make enemies.
The 2nd time you hang paper, word gets out that you are not a person to have your rights eff'd with.

Paper is bad, and comes back to haunt them at promotion time.

pullnshoot25
01-22-2010, 10:21 PM
I would handle it the same way as if I were stopped in the street.

tac
01-22-2010, 10:22 PM
I would take the following into consideration

1. I would not fumble around and keep my hands squarely on the steering wheel.
2. When informing the the officer that I have a pistol I would not use the word "GUN" because I don't know if a second officer is coming from the other side. The last thing you want him to hear is somebody saying "GUN".

I would use language such as "At this point I would like to inform you that I have an unloaded firearm inside the vehicle". Then I would ask the officer "How do you wish to proceed"

At that point I would simply follow his instructions.

tac
01-22-2010, 10:24 PM
Is probably worth mentioning that I keep my firearms unloaded and in a locked container when I drive to the range.

gadjeep
01-22-2010, 10:29 PM
I may very well be mistaken but I thought CA law mandated locked transportation of unloaded handguns when in a vehicle unless they are locked in a separate compartment (trunk, toolbox, etc).

Cokebottle
01-22-2010, 10:31 PM
Is probably worth mentioning that I keep my firearms unloaded and in a locked container when I drive to the range.
If that's the case, then the best way to proceed is to keep your mouth shut and treat is as a normal traffic stop.
Don't volunteer that you are carrying unless you want to give him RS for a search.

The moment you say "I have a _____" is the moment the encounter begins to turn out badly for you.

NEVER voluntarily give up your 5A rights.... especially when you are doing nothing illegal.

Cokebottle
01-22-2010, 10:32 PM
I may very well be mistaken but I thought CA law mandated locked transportation of unloaded handguns when in a vehicle unless they are locked in a separate compartment (trunk, toolbox, etc).
Nope.

Unloaded open carry is legal (but not currently recommended) except when within 1000ft of a K12 school.

gadjeep
01-22-2010, 10:40 PM
Nope.

Unloaded open carry is legal (but not currently recommended) except when within 1000ft of a K12 school.

Than why does the PC say this?


HANDGUNS

California Penal Code section 12025 does not prevent a citizen of the United States over 18 years of age who is not lawfully prohibited from firearm possession, and who resides or is temporarily in California, from transporting by motor vehicle any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person provided the firearm is unloaded and stored in a locked container.

The term "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device. This includes the trunk of a motor vehicle, but does not include the utility or glove compartment. For more information, refer to California Penal Code Section 12026.1.

Edit: I looked up the actual PC not just the answer from the DOJ FAQ and it looks like the difference is whether or not the firearm is registered to you (maybe?). In such case the crime only lies in the concealing of the weapon (I guess?). CA law is mind boggling. I miss Maine aside from the weather... and the bugs.

TurboS600
01-22-2010, 10:42 PM
Nope.

Unloaded open carry is legal (but not currently recommended) except when within 1000ft of a K12 school.

This is the part that is going to give you fits. How many of you can say that you know where ALL the schools are and that you could go about your day, driving all over town, and not come within 1000' of a school? It is not that easy to do, just ask Theseus. :D

lorax3
01-22-2010, 10:50 PM
Than why does the PC say this?



Because 12025 governs concealed handguns.

If the handgun is not concealed it cannot fall under 12025.

I would still recommend a secure locked container. Risking a 626.9 charge is way too easy in any urban area.

Cokebottle
01-22-2010, 10:57 PM
This is the part that is going to give you fits. How many of you can say that you know where ALL the schools are and that you could go about your day, driving all over town, and not come within 1000' of a school? It is not that easy to do, just ask Theseus. :D
The law states that it must be a school that you "know or reasonably should know about"

And yes... I am aware of Theseus's situation, and I also believe that it will be overturned on appeal.

Cokebottle
01-22-2010, 11:04 PM
Than why does the PC say this?

HANDGUNS

California Penal Code section 12025 does not prevent a citizen of the
Rather than clips from 12026:
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html
(a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
12026 is a list of exceptions to 12025.
12025 applies only to carrying a concealed firearm, therefore, 12025 is not applicable to a gun being carried openly.
Edit: I looked up the actual PC not just the answer from the DOJ FAQ and it looks like the difference is whether or not the firearm is registered to you (maybe?). In such case the crime only lies in the concealing of the weapon (I guess?). CA law is mind boggling. I miss Maine aside from the weather... and the bugs.That section addresses various exceptions 12025.

Carrying a gun in a locked container is carrying it concealed. 12026 allows for the carrying of a gun concealed without violating 12025 if the container is locked.

JeffM
01-22-2010, 11:04 PM
both hands on the wheel and dont do something stupid?

Too late...

hollabillz
01-23-2010, 12:02 AM
Too late...

I lol'd.

GrizzlyGuy
01-23-2010, 5:11 AM
And if it does, the favor is returned.

File a formal complaint, and don't accept the supervisor's begging "If you get a personal verbal apology, will you withdraw the complaint?"

NO!

The first time you hang paper on a cop, you'll make enemies.
The 2nd time you hang paper, word gets out that you are not a person to have your rights eff'd with.

Paper is bad, and comes back to haunt them at promotion time.

Exactly. Freedom isn't free and liberty doesn't come without risk. I'd happily have that problem and take those actions to address it, so that someone else doesn't encounter the same problem with the same LEO.

If I end up arrested and in jail, oh well, I have the phone number of my criminal defense attorney friend memorized, and she eats LEOs/LEAs for lunch. And if the LEO overreacts to the point of shooting and killing me, oh well... see above, liberty doesn't come without risk.

AndrewMendez
01-23-2010, 5:18 AM
You do not have to tell the LEO you have a firearm. If they approach your left side, and your firearm is on the right, you have your license, reg and proof of insurance in your hand, how are they going to see it. You have no obligation to show them your are UOC, and since its being openly displayed, you are not CCW'ing. Do not give the officer a reason to detain you.

Decoligny
01-23-2010, 10:03 AM
I would be LUCC in a vehicle. That's how I would handle it.

Lots of good help there.

"I would be in Arizona, that's how I would handle it."

"I would leave my gun in a safe at home, that's how I would handle it."

"I would have a monkey dressed in a bikini on my lap to distract the officer, that's how I would handle it."

None of these address the question asked. How about actually taking a moment to think about the question that the OP actually asked instead of spouting off rhetoric about some way to NOT have the situation happen?

He asked about a particular situation.

How about addressing that particular situation?

pullnshoot25
01-23-2010, 10:22 AM
You do not have to tell the LEO you have a firearm. If they approach your left side, and your firearm is on the right, you have your license, reg and proof of insurance in your hand, how are they going to see it. You have no obligation to show them your are UOC, and since its being openly displayed, you are not CCW'ing. Do not give the officer a reason to detain you.

You are a gentleman and a scholar.

davescz
01-23-2010, 10:38 AM
Lots of good help there.

"I would be in Arizona, that's how I would handle it."

"I would leave my gun in a safe at home, that's how I would handle it."

"I would have a monkey dressed in a bikini on my lap to distract the officer, that's how I would handle it."

None of these address the question asked. How about actually taking a moment to think about the question that the OP actually asked instead of spouting off rhetoric about some way to NOT have the situation happen?

He asked about a particular situation.

How about addressing that particular situation?


from the way I see the law, you cant have an unlocked hand gun in your car, it must be locked in a case, and the ammo must be stored speratley.

that conflicts with open carry laws, which allow you to carry openly (except in school anti-civil rights zones) with ammo at hand (but not loaded in gun).


Open carry does not address cars, but the ban on unlocked hand guns in cars is clear, it must be in a sperate locked contianer, with ammo stored seperatly.

i would think that the law means open carry ends at your car. I dont agree with the law, but that appears to be what it is saying. i would nto want to risk and test the law personnally.

if you could open carry in your car, all the bit about a locked container in your car would be meaningless. as you could claim you are doing a car based open carry.

I'd lock my gun when in the car, and keep ammo seperate.

now comes the part of how do i get into and out of my car, and transfer my gun to or from open carry postion (outside of car) with out "brandishing" my gun. kind of a catch 22 thing here.

same goes for a shop owner, with no conceld carry permit, but they can legally carry loaded at their place of bussiness, they transfer the gun each time in a locked box with ammo seperatly when the arrive or leave work. at some point they have to remove the gun form the locked box, do they do it before leaving the car, or do they have to carry the locked box inside their bussiness property before loading it? if this is the case (must be carried locked in a box while walking from car to bussines (say they park on a public street)) that leaves the owner ripe for an assult as his gun is locked away while he is exposed to danger while carring the gun to a place where he can then legally load it.

see how much bull these laws are???

use caution always , the laws are illogical, un-constitutional, and stab at the heart of civil rights. none the less we have to obey them, until we can run these politicians out of town on a hot rail to hell.

pullnshoot25
01-23-2010, 11:18 AM
from the way I see the law, you cant have an unlocked hand gun in your car, it must be locked in a case, and the ammo must be stored speratley.

that conflicts with open carry laws, which allow you to carry openly (except in school anti-civil rights zones) with ammo at hand (but not loaded in gun).


Open carry does not address cars, but the ban on unlocked hand guns in cars is clear, it must be in a sperate locked contianer, with ammo stored seperatly.

i would think that the law means open carry ends at your car. I dont agree with the law, but that appears to be what it is saying. i would nto want to risk and test the law personnally.

if you could open carry in your car, all the bit about a locked container in your car would be meaningless. as you could claim you are doing a car based open carry.

I'd lock my gun when in the car, and keep ammo seperate.

now comes the part of how do i get into and out of my car, and transfer my gun to or from open carry postion (outside of car) with out "brandishing" my gun. kind of a catch 22 thing here.

same goes for a shop owner, with no conceld carry permit, but they can legally carry loaded at their place of bussiness, they transfer the gun each time in a locked box with ammo seperatly when the arrive or leave work. at some point they have to remove the gun form the locked box, do they do it before leaving the car, or do they have to carry the locked box inside their bussiness property before loading it? if this is the case (must be carried locked in a box while walking from car to bussines (say they park on a public street)) that leaves the owner ripe for an assult as his gun is locked away while he is exposed to danger while carring the gun to a place where he can then legally load it.

see how much bull these laws are???

use caution always , the laws are illogical, un-constitutional, and stab at the heart of civil rights. none the less we have to obey them, until we can run these politicians out of town on a hot rail to hell.

The FUD is strong with this one. Read the FAQ in my signature.

GrizzlyGuy
01-23-2010, 11:24 AM
from the way I see the law, you cant have an unlocked hand gun in your car, it must be locked in a case, and the ammo must be stored speratley.

that conflicts with open carry laws, which allow you to carry openly (except in school anti-civil rights zones) with ammo at hand (but not loaded in gun).


Open carry does not address cars, but the ban on unlocked hand guns in cars is clear, it must be in a sperate locked contianer, with ammo stored seperatly.

No, see here: How do I legally transport a handgun? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#How_do_I_legally_transport_a_handgun.3F)

Ammo need not be stored separately. The locked container requirement only applies if either of these is true:

1) You are traveling through Gun Free School Zones (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones)

2) You intend to conceal the gun in the car (i.e. you intend to violate 12025 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html)). If it is sitting on the passenger seat in plain view, or in your belt holster (for example) it doesn't need to be locked up.

davescz
01-23-2010, 11:53 AM
so a hand gun can be openingly unloaded carried in your car, say on the front seat, that is ok??? (of course it better not fall off the seat and land on the floor, under the dash, then it beciome a conceled gun in your car)

sorry my mind is not too receptive of these wacked out legalities.

PS thanks for the info on your webiste, the FUD info was interesting, but has left me with more questoins, this stuff defies logic. i guess I need to build a high fence around my yard, and put my post box on the curb. with no tresspassing signs all around, cant have my front yard become a public place.

Stoner
01-23-2010, 12:27 PM
No offence, but i have no idea where you are getting your information. But you could not be more wrong.

Most agencies today have everything the cops do on video and voice recording. They know they are being recorded by their own department. So they do not do anything to put them selves in a bad situation.

So you can run down to the department and beat your chest and yell and scream all you want. LEO's know there are lots of folks out there that want to sue them and their department and find their pot of gold at the end of the LEO rainbow. Fact of the matter is, most complaints are unfounded. And the more complaints you make, the more obvious your intentions become.

And if it does, the favor is returned.

File a formal complaint, and don't accept the supervisor's begging "If you get a personal verbal apology, will you withdraw the complaint?"

NO!

The first time you hang paper on a cop, you'll make enemies.
The 2nd time you hang paper, word gets out that you are not a person to have your rights eff'd with.

Paper is bad, and comes back to haunt them at promotion time.

davescz
01-23-2010, 12:48 PM
No offence, but i have no idea where you are getting your information. But you could not be more wrong.

Most agencies today have everything the cops do on video and voice recording. They know they are being recorded by their own department. So they do not do anything to put them selves in a bad situation.

So you can run down to the department and beat your chest and yell and scream all you want. LEO's know there are lots of folks out there that want to sue them and their department and find their pot of gold at the end of the LEO rainbow. Fact of the matter is, most complaints are unfounded. And the more complaints you make, the more obvious your intentions become.


The police / prosecuters have lost evidence that would prove a person innocent in the past, could happen again. the cops could claim video malfunction if the video showed a cop doing wrong.
I suggest you retain your own recordings.
The police have been known to set up red light cameras, then shortened the yellow signal to nab more drivers. police departments and DA's can be very lawless at times. Recall the oakland BART train shootng, the police tried to confiscate private cameras from witnesses. Were they more concerned with evidence gathering, or covering their exposed rear end???

many time the cops will try to ingore your complaint to make youi go a away, I have had cops illegally deny public records requests when we determined they were using out of calibration radar detectors. after refusing to hand over the calibration records for two months, they finally say we can have them, at $10 a page, (which is itself illegal, copy cost only is the law)

Stoner
01-23-2010, 1:24 PM
The police / prosecuters have lost evidence that would prove a person innocent in the past, could happen again. the cops could claim video malfunction if the video showed a cop doing wrong.
I suggest you retain your own recordings.
The police have been known to set up red light cameras, then shortened the yellow signal to nab more drivers. police departments and DA's can be very lawless at times. Recall the oakland BART train shootng, the police tried to confiscate private cameras from witnesses. Were they more concerned with evidence gathering, or covering their exposed rear end???

many time the cops will try to ingore your complaint to make youi go a away, I have had cops illegally deny public records requests when we determined they were using out of calibration radar detectors. after refusing to hand over the calibration records for two months, they finally say we can have them, at $10 a page, (which is itself illegal, copy cost only is the law)

OK, my tin foil hat is now firmly attached.:TFH:

So lets say the police did not try to collect all the evidence a the scene of a shooting, would you then be saying they refused to collect all the evidence available?

As for as the red light cameras, please provide any FACTS where the yellow light was shortened AFTER the system was install. I do know of cases where the city failed to lengthen the yellow after the system was installed, and when that fact came to light, all citations were dismissed.

And if your request for public records was illegally denied, how do you know the radar detectors where out of calibration.

And finally did you pay the $10 for the records and receive them, then sue the department for illegal fees, or did they reduce the copy fee??

dantodd
01-23-2010, 1:47 PM
so a hand gun can be openingly unloaded carried in your car, say on the front seat, that is ok??? (of course it better not fall off the seat and land on the floor, under the dash, then it beciome a conceled gun in your car)

sorry my mind is not too receptive of these wacked out legalities.

PS thanks for the info on your webiste, the FUD info was interesting, but has left me with more questoins, this stuff defies logic. i guess I need to build a high fence around my yard, and put my post box on the curb. with no tresspassing signs all around, cant have my front yard become a public place.

You would not be the first (nor in the first million) person to notice that California's gun laws are "wacked out."

AndrewMendez
01-24-2010, 12:42 AM
You are a gentleman and a scholar.

Why Thanks Nate! I learned from some crazy white Guy in San Diego.

Meplat
01-24-2010, 1:50 AM
...Something tells me he'd make it your problem if you decided to play the "I'm not going to talk to you" game. Carrying a gun comes with responsibilities; answering some basic questions from the police if stopped is one of them.

Bull. Nothing overrides the 5th amendment.:rolleyes:

Meplat
01-24-2010, 2:00 AM
The law states that it must be a school that you "know or reasonably should know about"

And yes... I am aware of Theseus's situation, and I also believe that it will be overturned on appeal.
:43:
I agree and think it may turn out to be one hell of a win for RKBA. It's just nuts that you have to know something is there that is blocks away and obscured by buildings.:p

Meplat
01-24-2010, 2:03 AM
Too late...

:rofl2:

Meplat
01-24-2010, 2:12 AM
Belt holsters being actually referred to in the PC should be OK right? I mean where does it say the gun has to be visible from 360 degrees?

No, see here: How do I legally transport a handgun? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#How_do_I_legally_transport_a_handgun.3F)

Ammo need not be stored separately. The locked container requirement only applies if either of these is true:

1) You are traveling through Gun Free School Zones (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones)

2) You intend to conceal the gun in the car (i.e. you intend to violate 12025 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html)). If it is sitting on the passenger seat in plain view, or in your belt holster (for example) it doesn't need to be locked up.

Meplat
01-24-2010, 2:17 AM
And those recordings have a disturbing way of getting lost when they go against the department.:rolleyes:



No offence, but i have no idea where you are getting your information. But you could not be more wrong.

Most agencies today have everything the cops do on video and voice recording. They know they are being recorded by their own department. So they do not do anything to put them selves in a bad situation.

So you can run down to the department and beat your chest and yell and scream all you want. LEO's know there are lots of folks out there that want to sue them and their department and find their pot of gold at the end of the LEO rainbow. Fact of the matter is, most complaints are unfounded. And the more complaints you make, the more obvious your intentions become.

GrizzlyGuy
01-24-2010, 6:29 AM
Belt holsters being actually referred to in the PC should be OK right? I mean where does it say the gun has to be visible from 360 degrees?

Yes, my read of the PC is that openly carried in a belt holster is always fine, whether you are in a car or not. The PC (12025 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html)) explicitly says that the firearm is not concealed in that case:

(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

That doesn't mean that there aren't other acceptable carry methods (e.g., sitting on the passenger seat in plain view).

Nowhere in 12025 does it say that the gun has to be visible from 360 degrees. Unless the legislature presumes that LEOs have X-ray vision, there will always be a viewing angle from which they will not be able to see the gun. Our legislators are misguided, but they aren't that wacky. :D