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View Full Version : Help stop the FUD / Help me draft a letter.


VaderSpade
01-20-2010, 9:50 AM
I was in Jones Fort in Redding yesterday, looking over the reloading supplies. I’ve heard that the Jones are anti OLL so I have stayed away from the subject as I tend to get a little passionate when I hear FUD first hand. Well I look over and see a salesman showing what looked like an AR-15 to a customer. Cool I thought they have finely seen the light, so I walked over to take a look. It turned out to be a .22 and the salesman was bad mouthing it.
So I ask, “Are you guys carrying center fire AR’s yet”??? “Those are illegal assault rifles,” he snapped back.

Here we go! I told him “that’s not true”. One of the owners (Marshall) quickly stepped in and took over spreading the FUD. “I didn’t say they were illegal,” he said. “Your man just did” I snapped back He said “the DOJ had told him that it was up to local DA’s as weather or not to prosecute” and That they told him there was no law stating bullet buttons were legal.

I hit back with all the arguments. I told him;

Your family is in politics, you should know laws tell you what is illegal, not what’s legal.

You know we have a gun friendly DA.

Weather you carry them or not you should not spread FUD.

I told him word for word what the definition of an assault rifle was.

And, that there had never been a successful prosecution of a properly configured OLL.

He knows I’m a good customer, and that I have spent many thousands of dollars in that shop, but he would not even listen. I swore I was talking to a full out anti gunner. There were about a half dozen customers in the shop and we were going at it pretty loudly. He kept saying young punks this and young punks that. Marshall is a very bitter man.

So here’s the thing I want to take a letter to both him and his brother (who I think is much cooler and also knows I spend thousands there).

I want the letter to touch all the legal bases, and to ask them if they choose not to carry OLL at least change what they tell their customers. I want to be able to take copies of the letters to the range, and tell everyone that Jones Fort was given a copy of this letter, and see if he’s willing to at least stop spreading FUD.

This is where I need some help, as I don’t want to miss any points, but I don’t want to ramble. I think if we get together and draft a letter; others could use it to help other shops to understand the OLL movement. If it comes from this entire community I think the anti OLL people might take heed.

I would like the letter to contain what this community thinks a shop that has every right not to carry OLL’s should be telling their customers.
Something like “We know others are selling them, and that although there has never been a successful prosecution of a properly configured OLL, we are not willing to take that chance.”

Personally I believe if you are not willing to fight for our rights you should not be in the gun business.

Marshall, those young PUNKS you kept referring to are the future of the gun movement. Us old guys need to pass the torch to someone; lets support them and not denigrate them.

BigBamBoo
01-20-2010, 9:56 AM
.........

VaderSpade
01-20-2010, 10:06 AM
Good luck! Neither Marshall or Patrick (his "political" brother) will have anything to do with OLL...and as you stated...they are not hearing it.
Take care,Stan


If I can't get through to them, (I know that’s a tall order) I want to be able to show the letter to anyone who will listen. I think if I reach enough of their customer base, it will get back to them, and they may at least stop the FUD.
I hope to join the Tehama Shooters this year (missed it by days last year) I'll be at that range and others with my brightly colored AR's they always draw a crowd.

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 10:32 AM
Old habits die hard.
One of my local shops... great shop for the most part, good prices, friendly staff, owner is an avid hunter/survivalist.

He is constantly claiming that CWS is selling illegal guns.
I would think if that were true they'd have been shut down years ago... but some people simply can't see the logic in that.

BroncoBob
01-20-2010, 10:36 AM
I was in Jones Fort in Redding yesterday, looking over the reloading supplies. I’ve heard that the Jones are anti OLL so I have stayed away from the subject as I tend to get a little passionate when I hear FUD first hand. Well I look over and see a salesman showing what looked like an AR-15 to a customer. Cool I thought they have finely seen the light, so I walked over to take a look. It turned out to be a .22 and the salesman was bad mouthing it.
So I ask, “Are you guys carrying center fire AR’s yet”??? “Those are illegal assault rifles,” he snapped back.

Here we go! I told him “that’s not true”. One of the owners (Marshall) quickly stepped in and took over spreading the FUD. “I didn’t say they were illegal,” he said. “Your man just did” I snapped back He said “the DOJ had told him that it was up to local DA’s as weather or not to prosecute” and That they told him there was no law stating bullet buttons were legal.

I hit back with all the arguments. I told him;

Your family is in politics, you should know laws tell you what is illegal, not what’s legal.

You know we have a gun friendly DA.

Weather you carry them or not you should not spread FUD.

I told him word for word what the definition of an assault rifle was.

And, that there had never been a successful prosecution of a properly configured OLL.

He knows I’m a good customer, and that I have spent many thousands of dollars in that shop, but he would not even listen. I swore I was talking to a full out anti gunner. There were about a half dozen customers in the shop and we were going at it pretty loudly. He kept saying young punks this and young punks that. Marshall is a very bitter man.

So here’s the thing I want to take a letter to both him and his brother (who I think is much cooler and also knows I spend thousands there).

I want the letter to touch all the legal bases, and to ask them if they choose not to carry OLL at least change what they tell their customers. I want to be able to take copies of the letters to the range, and tell everyone that Jones Fort was given a copy of this letter, and see if he’s willing to at least stop spreading FUD.

This is where I need some help, as I don’t want to miss any points, but I don’t want to ramble. I think if we get together and draft a letter; others could use it to help other shops to understand the OLL movement. If it comes from this entire community I think the anti OLL people might take heed.

I would like the letter to contain what this community thinks a shop that has every right not to carry OLL’s should be telling their customers.
Something like “We know others are selling them, and that although there has never been a successful prosecution of a properly configured OLL, we are not willing to take that chance.”

Personally I believe if you are not willing to fight for our rights you should not be in the gun business.

Marshall, those young PUNKS you kept referring to are the future of the gun movement. Us old guys need to pass the torch to someone; lets support them and not denigrate them.


Give them a copy of the flowchart and let it be.

VaderSpade
01-20-2010, 10:38 AM
Old habits die hard.
One of my local shops... great shop for the most part, good prices, friendly staff, owner is an avid hunter/survivalist.

He is constantly claiming that CWS is selling illegal guns.
I would think if that were true they'd have been shut down years ago... but some people simply can't see the logic in that.

This is why I think a well-drafted letter could help throughout the state, wherever FUD exist. If they won’t listen at least we can say we tried!

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 10:42 AM
This is why I think a well-drafted letter could help throughout the state, wherever FUD exist. If they won’t listen at least we can say we tried!
That's the thing... they KNOW what is going on in the state.
This guy has known about CWS for years, and he's been an FFL for years.
He knows about BATF and DOJ audits and inspection, and he knows that if CWS were selling illegal guns they'd be shut down and prosecuted inside of 3 months.

They have simply made a decision to remain on "that" side of the line, and they use FUD to explain their position to customers so they don't have to take the time to explain that they simply don't want to expand their product lines into an area that they are unfamiliar with.

CHS
01-20-2010, 11:11 AM
I say let them die and let the newer shops take over.

You can't win in an emotional debate, and that's what this is to those people.

BigBamBoo
01-20-2010, 11:13 AM
.........

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 11:24 AM
I say let them die and let the newer shops take over.

You can't win in an emotional debate, and that's what this is to those people.
Amen.

Or, live and let live.
Not every clothing store sells Dickies.

zman
01-20-2010, 11:28 AM
Give them a copy of the flowchart and let it be.

Don't forget to add the Sac PD & OC Sheriff memos.

CHS
01-20-2010, 11:48 AM
Not every clothing store sells Dickies.

Excellent point.

ke6guj
01-20-2010, 11:51 AM
Not every clothing store sells Dickies.

Excellent point.

correct. But don't say that Dickies are illegal if you don't want to sell them.

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 11:52 AM
correct. But don't say that Dickies are illegal if you don't want to sell them.
But the gang bangers all wear Dickies... they must be illegal assault-wear! :TFH:

ChuckBooty
01-20-2010, 11:53 AM
Ya know...when a local shop here in town first opened they were leaning a little bit in that direction. I bought a hand gun from them and when I picked it up, I dropped off the flow chart and the PD memos. They started selling lowers, uppers, and now complete center-fire rifles. And they're willing to transfer just about anything that's legal.

What bothers me more than shops that refuse to sell, are shops that add their own spin on the law. For instance, Turners in Corona sells OLL complete rifles. But instead of bullet buttons, they sell Price-50's that they use LOCKTIGHT on to make them permanent.

ke6guj
01-20-2010, 11:57 AM
What bothers me more than shops that refuse to sell, are shops that add their own spin on the law. For instance, Turners in Corona sells OLL complete rifles. But instead of bullet buttons, they sell Price-50's that they use LOCKTIGHT on to make them permanent.I don't really have a problem with that. Everybody has to pick how far down the OLL-line they want to go. Thats where Turner's line is right now. Off-list, but with "permanent-type" fixed mags or featureless. No Bullet-button types right now.

You hear about other shops tht will transfer stripped lowers, but nothing else. And others that require all lowes to have a BB, no matter if it is a complete lower without an upper, or even a stripped lower. They decide the level of exposure they want to take on. And as long as they say, "we are willing to do this, but not this" without FUD'ing me, I don't have a problem with it.

BroncoBob
01-20-2010, 12:06 PM
Don't forget to add the Sac PD & OC Sheriff memos.

Excellent suggestion!:thumbsup:

B Strong
01-20-2010, 3:56 PM
Your heart is in the right place.

Unfortunately it is impossible to educate a fool, or to enlighten someone with a closed mind.

This is another example where being right about something has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

You really need to step back and take your ego out of the equation and realize that the people you're dealing with do not and will not change their minds - probably in any instance - but in this particular situation Jesus H. Christ his ownself could probably pass them the word and it would fall on deaf ears.

G17GUY
01-20-2010, 5:17 PM
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf

bigcalidave
01-20-2010, 6:32 PM
I love the constant jones fort threads. It's just not going to change, and people should really give up on trying to change them. They have the entire family business on the line, which means that their whole extended family is supported from that store. They don't want to risk anything, any interpretation of laws, etc. That is their choice! If they tell someone that having an AR is illegal that person can find out elsewhere what they can do.
I've talked to Patrick Jones at length about different topics, he's a good guy, currently our mayor up here, and a great supporter of our greater cause. He also has higher political aspirations, and I hope he succeeds. If that means he doesn't want some negative report about the mayors personal gun store selling EBRs, fine. At some point soon I'd like to meet up with him again, work on ways to at least stop the negative comments and maybe distribute some of our literature like the flowchart.

VaderSpade
01-20-2010, 6:40 PM
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf

http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf

Truly helpful thanks. I have printed those out.

For those saying these guys can't be reached, at least I'll know I tried. You can't win a battle if you don't show up. It's too easy to make excuses, and then wonder what went wrong when we lose our rights, & check my second post.

My uncle and cousin are both Asphalt Cowboys (an elite service club which allows only 35 members), and Redding Rodeo Association members. I worked the tri tip feed with them this fall and saw Patrick there. With us were the Sheriff, DA, and a few LEOs. I was showing them all the lowers I have been building. At the right time and place I think I can talk to Patrick.

bigcalidave
01-20-2010, 6:44 PM
I just don't think a letter will do it. If you want to have an in person meeting with Pat that would be a lot more useful. But the situation needs to be scheduled, and not at his store. Another problem is that there are a lot of problems around here right now, and it may not be something he cares to deal with at this time. Please keep me up to date on this plan.