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hollabillz
01-16-2010, 10:56 AM
SO, If I was a Class 3 FFL located in CA and paying the SOT tax, would it be legal for me to own this thingy (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=154189426), silencer and all? I'm pretty sure this isn't a repost :laugh:

I know the knee jerk reaction is HEEEEEEELLL no, but why? Thanks. :)

383green
01-16-2010, 11:01 AM
HEEEEEEELLL no, because even with your FFL and SOT, CA has their own law against SBRs (PC12020), and requires you to have a permit issued by CA DOJ... which almost nobody gets issued, I hear. :(

383green
01-16-2010, 11:02 AM
By the way, I rarely see a gun that I think is too fugly to love... but that's one of them! :D

Ballistic043
01-16-2010, 11:07 AM
been seeing alot of MW2 guns up on gunbroker lately! first a supposed WA2000, ACR's. now the vector! what's next, an intervention??

that would have a place right in my safe! right next to my imaginary F2000

Quiet
01-16-2010, 11:24 AM
SO, If I was a Class 3 FFL located in CA and paying the SOT tax,

No such thing as a Class 3 FFL.

There are Types of FFLs and Classes of SOTs.

hollabillz
01-16-2010, 11:30 AM
No such thing as a Class 3 FFL.

There are Types of FFLs and Classes of SOTs.

You say potato... :)

hollabillz
01-16-2010, 11:33 AM
HEEEEEEELLL no, because even with your FFL and SOT, CA has their own law against SBRs (PC12020), and requires you to have a permit issued by CA DOJ... which almost nobody gets issued, I hear. :(

Drat.. I thought the silencer would be the one to DQ it :(

Fjold
01-16-2010, 11:40 AM
No such thing as a Class 3 FFL.

There are Types of FFLs and Classes of SOTs.


At least he spelled "ridiculous" correctly. Over 75% of the time people spell it "rediculous". WTF is with that, does it even sound like "red"?

383green
01-16-2010, 11:45 AM
Drat.. I thought the silencer would be the one to DQ it :(

I think the silencer also sinks that battleship, but I don't happen to know the PC section off the top of my head. I just happened to have taken a peek at the SBR section last night because of some new posts in the rifle identification flowchart thread.

Oh, I also noticed the correct spelling of ridiculous... I was so amazed that I decided to read this thread, when I might have ignored it otherwise! :D

hollabillz
01-16-2010, 2:28 PM
I think the silencer also sinks that battleship, but I don't happen to know the PC section off the top of my head. I just happened to have taken a peek at the SBR section last night because of some new posts in the rifle identification flowchart thread.

Oh, I also noticed the correct spelling of ridiculous... I was so amazed that I decided to read this thread, when I might have ignored it otherwise! :D

Do gunnies have a problem spelling 4 syllable words? :( :D

383green
01-16-2010, 2:30 PM
Do gunnies have a problem spelling 4 syllable words? :( :D

Not just gunnies... based on all of the various forums I'm on, I think "ridiculous" may be one of the most often misspelled words! It's right up there with using an apostrophe to mean "Look out! Here comes an 's'!" :D

hollabillz
01-16-2010, 2:36 PM
Not just gunnies... based on all of the various forums I'm on, I think "ridiculous" may be one of the most often misspelled words! It's right up there with using an apostrophe to mean "Look out! Here comes an 's'!" :D

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

B Strong
01-16-2010, 2:43 PM
SO, If I was a Class 3 FFL located in CA and paying the SOT tax, would it be legal for me to own this thingy (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=154189426), silencer and all? I'm pretty sure this isn't a repost :laugh:

I know the knee jerk reaction is HEEEEEEELLL no, but why? Thanks. :)

You'd need the state dealer's permit, and a SOT license from the feds.

After that, all you'd need is boatloads of cash, and you can own any type of NFA weapon available.

Don't hold your breath.

Surf&Skeet
01-16-2010, 4:01 PM
Wow, that thing is all kinds of illegal. It is almost a piece of art (despite its ugliness) how it manages to simultaneously qualify to violate so many different CA laws.

As mentioned, the silencer is illegal all by itself, and it could be a SBR (which does need a permit from DOJ). But also, that thing is a CAT 3 AW, regardless of whether it is considered a handgun or a rifle. Stay away from that thing!

bigcalidave
01-16-2010, 9:04 PM
That's the ugliest gun I've ever seen.. Like some weird abortion from drunk glock engineers.

professorhard
01-16-2010, 9:23 PM
At least he spelled "ridiculous" correctly. Over 75% of the time people spell it "rediculous". WTF is with that, does it even sound like "red"?


OMG I seriously thought I was the only one that noticed that. Everytime someone spells that word incorrectly it just makes me think that they're 12 years old.

Glock21sfsd
01-16-2010, 9:40 PM
That is one ugly gun

Cokebottle
01-17-2010, 12:08 AM
Not just gunnies... based on all of the various forums I'm on, I think "ridiculous" may be one of the most often misspelled words! It's right up there with using an apostrophe to mean "Look out! Here comes an 's'!" :D
Definately!



:p ;)

Pyrodyne
01-17-2010, 8:12 AM
Exactly what is the appeal of this... thing? It looks like it has a huge storage area behind the mag, unless it is sporting some sort of rube goldberg trigger group in there. Additionally it must eject spent brass up and then right..?

bigstick61
01-17-2010, 9:13 AM
I know a dealer in California who's an SOT and he has all of the DOJ permits he needs. It's not impossible. Although I think it helps that he does a large volume of business with police departments, but still...with an SOT, though, you have to be in it for the business; you can't just get the license/status just because.

B Strong
01-17-2010, 9:17 AM
Wow, that thing is all kinds of illegal. It is almost a piece of art (despite its ugliness) how it manages to simultaneously qualify to violate so many different CA laws.

As mentioned, the silencer is illegal all by itself, and it could be a SBR (which does need a permit from DOJ). But also, that thing is a CAT 3 AW, regardless of whether it is considered a handgun or a rifle. Stay away from that thing!


With the state dealer permit and the fed. SOT there's nothing at all illegal about the weapon or the can.

Better yet, get the manufacturing license and the fed. SOT and build NFA goodies to your heart's content.

freonr22
01-17-2010, 9:20 AM
what makes it a class 3 if its semiauto? is it the sbr part?



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383green
01-17-2010, 9:46 AM
what makes it a class 3 if its semiauto? is it the sbr part?

Yes, the SBR part.


Definately!

My head just asploded! :p

Surf&Skeet
01-17-2010, 10:13 AM
[QUOTE=freonr22;3654275]what makes it a class 3 if its semiauto? is it the sbr part?


All AWs (except some shotguns) are Semiautomatic. If they are automatic, then they are not an AW, but rather a machine gun. Both require impossible to get permits from DOJ if not registered properly years ago. CAT 3 just refers to AWs based on features as opposed to listed AWs. Because the gun at issue here is either a semiauto, centerfire "rifle" with a forward pistol grip (among other things), it is a CAT 3 AW; Or it is considered a pistol, which is still a CAT 3 AW because it is semiauto, centerfire, which accepts a detachable magazine and has both: 1) a threaded barrel to accept a silencer, and 2) a second handgrip (either of these would qualify it as a CAT 3 AW).

See Penal Code section 12276.1 if you have any questions. Hope that helps.

freonr22
01-17-2010, 10:16 AM
thank you

Surf&Skeet
01-17-2010, 10:18 AM
With the state dealer permit and the fed. SOT there's nothing at all illegal about the weapon or the can.

Better yet, get the manufacturing license and the fed. SOT and build NFA goodies to your heart's content.

My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that a "class 3" dealers license referenced herein is for C&Rs only. Based on that understanding, that firearm is a CAT 3 AW and such a person would not be able to buy it. Assuming I'm wrong, and such a person is able to buy an AW, the person definitely could not buy it without a SBR permit from DOJ.

Am I wrong as you understand things, and why?

BONECUTTER
01-17-2010, 10:20 AM
been seeing alot of MW2 guns up on gunbroker lately! first a supposed WA2000, ACR's. now the vector! what's next, an intervention??

that would have a place right in my safe! right next to my imaginary F2000

The interventions have been available for years. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=153960624

You can have a F2000 as well. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=153493326

Been living under a rock?

Surf&Skeet
01-17-2010, 10:21 AM
thank you

No problem.

B Strong
01-17-2010, 10:54 AM
My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that a "class 3" dealers license referenced herein is for C&Rs only. Based on that understanding, that firearm is a CAT 3 AW and such a person would not be able to buy it. Assuming I'm wrong, and such a person is able to buy an AW, the person definitely could not buy it without a SBR permit from DOJ.

Am I wrong as you understand things, and why?

The State and Fed. NFA dealers permit covers all NFA weapons, C & R, transferable, pre-sample, post-sample, the works. The state throws in a few extra hurdles just to get a few more dollars out of a licencsee.

The state AW laws don't have anything to do with NFA weapons on the state or fed level.

Here in California, individuals are by-and-large de facto prohibited from owning NFA weapons and devices as individuals, and the only option is to be a licensed dealer or manufacturer, in compliance with state and fed. law.

You can do a search here for NFA trusts for some insight into how individuals go about legally owning the few NFA goodies that are covered under state law.

Cokebottle
01-17-2010, 11:13 AM
My head just asploded! :p
How did you type that if you head exploded?



:D

383green
01-17-2010, 11:17 AM
How did you type that if you head exploded?

I TYPE WITH MY FINGERS!!! VERY LOUDLY!!! :tt2:

Roadrunner
01-17-2010, 1:23 PM
Couldn't that be reclassified as a pistol? Then, all you need is a 10 round magazine.

383green
01-17-2010, 1:40 PM
Couldn't that be reclassified as a pistol? Then, all you need is a 10 round magazine.

Once the stock went on, it became an SBR. As far as BATFE is concerned, it doesn't turn back into a pistol when the stock is removed. Once an SBR/MG/whatever, always an SBR/MG/whatever. :mad:

Cokebottle
01-17-2010, 2:25 PM
Once the stock went on, it became an SBR. As far as BATFE is concerned, it doesn't turn back into a pistol when the stock is removed. Once an SBR/MG/whatever, always an SBR/MG/whatever. :mad:
DOJ, absolutely, but BATF, I'm not 100% positive. They're a bit more liberal in that respect. There was a recent discussion on AR lowers and the general opinion was that BATF does not consider it a "long gun" until it has both a buttstock intended to be fired from the shoulder and a 16" barrel installed.

ke6guj
01-17-2010, 2:40 PM
OK, lots of mis-information in this thread.

If one were an 01FFL with an 03SOT, federally it would be acceptable to possess that SBR with the suppressor, if you had an approved Form 4 for each item.

Statewise, CA requires you to have a CA Dangerous Weapons Permit to possess an SBR. As an 01FFL/03SOT, it might be possible to get a permit, depending on why you want it. For the suppressor, as an NFA dealer, you only need the Form 4, no state permit needed.

Also, as mentioned, the SBR is also considered an AW. It actually meets bot h the defintion of a rifle AW, and a pistol AW. So, you'd need an AW permit as well as the SBR permit. I'd assume that if CADOJ were to issue you an SBR permit, they would also issue you a matching AW permit (or consider the SBR permit to cover the AW'ness of the firearm).



To the question of could it be made into a pistol from the rifle or SBR version, NO. Once it has a shoulder stock, it is designed to be fired from the shoulder, and meets the defintion of a rifle, even if it has a short barrel. Removal of the shoulder stock does not make it a pistol, but an SBS becuase it is a fiream made from a rifle. Now, KRISS could make a pistol version of it if they wish, but it would need to be built from the ground up as a pistol, with no provision for attachment of a shoulder stock.