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1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 4:47 PM
Father in law and I were shooting today and this guy I have had problems with before shows up, he tell us empty your gun! open the slide! turn the gun around! then he starts screaming out 2 fingers 2 fingers! then points his gun at us!:eek: We both asked him are you crazy? why are you pointed a gun at us we are not doing anything wrong and are complying to your demands?
I contact his office and supervisors are not going to be in until Tue, I walk in the ranger station holding my 19 month old son and he unbuckles his holster!! then asks me if I am threatening him? I call the Sheriffs department and attempt to place him under citizens arrest, the sheriff showed up and handcuffed me and started searching me!! At the end of it all he would not arrest him nor file a police report! So much for my rights.:cool:

wooger
01-15-2010, 4:50 PM
Where did this occur?

The Director
01-15-2010, 4:52 PM
I think the criteria for citizens arrest is that he mustve committed a felony in your presence. If you have properly followed the rules, a cop MUST place the individual under arrest. Need more info on this one.

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 4:53 PM
Where did this occur?

Garner Valley near Hemet/Idyllwild

ChrisTKHarris
01-15-2010, 4:53 PM
What was his reasoning for pulling the gun?

!@#$
01-15-2010, 4:55 PM
What was his reasoning for pulling the gun?

the great catch all "officer safety"

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 4:55 PM
I think the criteria for citizens arrest is that he mustve committed a felony in your presence. If you have properly followed the rules, a cop MUST place the individual under arrest. Need more info on this one.

No matter who I talked to it's falling on def ears.

CSACANNONEER
01-15-2010, 4:57 PM
I think the criteria for citizens arrest is that he mustve committed a felony in your presence. If you have properly followed the rules, a cop MUST place the individual under arrest. Need more info on this one.

First of all, you can place someone under a citizen's arrest for any crime. Secondly, IIRC, a few years back, some stupid law was passed allowing officers to NOT take the "arrested" into custody.


To the OP,

DOCUMENT EVERYTHING! Even though the officer did not want to file a report, there is still an incident card on file at his station. You should talk to his supervisors and get a copy of the incident card for your records. Also, quit threatening forrest service workers with dirty diapers! Hell, many people here might unsnap their holster if you approached them with an evil dirty diaper making machine in hand.

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 4:59 PM
What was his reasoning for pulling the gun?

we did not comply to "2 fingers! 2 fingers!" I had no idea what the hell he was talking about.:TFH:

This guy has issues with me, last time he started to go through my Jeep with out asking permission.

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:01 PM
First of all, you can place someone under a citizen's arrest for any crime. Secondly, IIRC, a few years back, some stupid law was passed allowing officers to NOT take the "arrested" into custody.


To the OP,

DOCUMENT EVERYTHING! Even though the officer did not want to file a report, there is still an incident card on file at his station. You should talk to his supervisors and get a copy of the incident card for your records. Also, quit threatening forrest service workers with dirty diapers! Hell, many people here might unsnap their holster if you approached them with an evil dirty diaper making machine in hand.


I will do that, I plan on following this to the bitter end.

strangerdude
01-15-2010, 5:03 PM
It's only a matter of time until he pulls that trigger, don't give up. Do everything you can to have him charged, suspended, fired, whatever.

DedEye
01-15-2010, 5:04 PM
Use a video recorder.

Why weren't you wearing your camo? If you were, how could he find you?

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:07 PM
It's only a matter of time until he pulls that trigger, don't give up. Do everything you can to have him charged, suspended, fired, whatever.

Where we were shooting you sometimes get shady individuals with out a though process, the way he handles situations it's just a matter of time before he gets him self or others killed.

MontClaire
01-15-2010, 5:07 PM
get an attorney, sue for pointing a gun at you and unholstering (death threat). claim threat to your life with a deadly weapon.

ChrisTKHarris
01-15-2010, 5:07 PM
we did not comply to "2 fingers! 2 fingers!" I had no idea what the hell he was talking about.:TFH:

This guy has issues with me, last time he started to go through my Jeep with out asking permission.

Yeah what does "two fingers" mean?

DedEye
01-15-2010, 5:08 PM
Yeah what does "two fingers" mean?

I'm guessing "use two fingers to remove the firearm from your holster and/or unload it."

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:08 PM
Use a video recorder.

Why weren't you wearing your camo? If you were, how could he find you?

I am not sure if there is one in the SUV the drive and if it was on.

DedEye
01-15-2010, 5:08 PM
I am not sure if there is one in the SUV the drive and if it was on.

Get your OWN.

ChrisTKHarris
01-15-2010, 5:08 PM
I'm guessing "use two fingers to remove the firearm from your holster and/or unload it."

Ah gotcha. That makes sense.

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:09 PM
get an attorney, sue for pointing a gun at you and unholstering (death threat). claim threat to your life with a deadly weapon.

That is my plan

Kestryll
01-15-2010, 5:09 PM
Damn you're dumb

why are you insulting me?

I'd REALLY like to know that answer to that question too...:toetap05:

ChrisTKHarris
01-15-2010, 5:10 PM
That is my plan

Is that even possible considering he's an LEO? I can understand assault with a deadly weapon for someone that's not LEO, but does the same rule apply to an LEO that carries a gun for a living?

ChrisO
01-15-2010, 5:10 PM
I would have flipped him off with each hand 2 fingers :p please keep us informed though in all seriousness.

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:12 PM
Ah gotcha. That makes sense.

no!the gun was in my hand slide open mag out I was holding it by the slide pointing towards me. We were complying to his demands!
We did not posse a threat he had us empty both guns and take mag out opening slide. He then started to scream 2 fingers! Were were shooting legally, he had no probable cause to pull his gun out.

DedEye
01-15-2010, 5:14 PM
no!the gun was in my hand slide open mag out I was holding it by the slide pointing towards me. We were complying to his demands!
We did not posse a threat he had us empty both guns and take mag out opening slide. He then started to scream 2 fingers! Were were shooting legally, he had no probable cause to pull his gun out.

Then that makes no sense at all.

Is that even possible considering he's an LEO? I can understand assault with a deadly weapon for someone that's not LEO, but does the same rule apply to an LEO that carries a gun for a living?

Qualified Immunity. Not likely to be much of a case unfortunately, but talk to a lawyer all the same.

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:14 PM
Is that even possible considering he's an LEO? I can understand assault with a deadly weapon for someone that's not LEO, but does the same rule apply to an LEO that carries a gun for a living?


What other option do I have with out breaking the law?

DedEye
01-15-2010, 5:15 PM
What other option to I have with out breaking the law?

Document everything, record all encounters with voice and video recorders, complain up and outside his chain of command, talk to the press about the out of control deputy (don't wear camo when talking to the media), write to the mayor, call the CHP if the sheriff doesn't help.

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:16 PM
Then that makes no sense at all.



Qualified Immunity. Not likely to be much of a case unfortunately, but talk to a lawyer all the same.

My fatherin law that he pointed the gun at is a lawyer but appears to lack the passion I posses in this matter.

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:18 PM
Document everything, record all encounters with voice and video recorders, complain up and outside his chain of command, talk to the press about the out of control deputy (don't wear camo when talking to the media), write to the mayor, call the CHP if the sheriff doesn't help.

I need to find out if they have a camera in there.

andrewj
01-15-2010, 5:24 PM
This guy remembers you from your encounters with him in the past?

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:26 PM
This guy remembers you from your encounters with him in the past?

yeah he violated my rights and I made sure that his superiors knew about it.

ChrisTKHarris
01-15-2010, 5:32 PM
yeah he violated my rights and I made sure that his superiors knew about it.

Perhaps you both are a little over-zealous due to your previous encounters?

DedEye
01-15-2010, 5:34 PM
My fatherin law that he pointed the gun at is a lawyer but appears to lack the passion I posses in this matter.

That also may be a hint at the feasibility of any case you'd like to file.

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:35 PM
Perhaps you both are a little over-zealous due to your previous encounters?

I am not pointing a gun at him:cool:

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:35 PM
That also may be a hint at the feasibility of any case you'd like to file.

yes

JeffM
01-15-2010, 5:42 PM
why are you insulting me?

My apologies.

Eat Dirt
01-15-2010, 5:51 PM
I'm Very interested to see how this plays out ...

Were you up in Apple Canyon or on the Thomas Mt. Trail
I'm up in that Mt. area a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also was the Ranger's first name start with a M____ ?

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 5:58 PM
I'm Very interested to see how this plays out ...

Were you up in Apple Canyon or on the Thomas Mt. Trail
I'm up in that Mt. area a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also was the Ranger's first name start with a M____ ?

hmmm your the third person I have spoke with today that asked me this question, please tell.

SteveH
01-15-2010, 6:03 PM
First of all, you can place someone under a citizen's arrest for any crime. Secondly, IIRC, a few years back, some stupid law was passed allowing officers to NOT take the "arrested" into custody.


Correct.

The problem was the police were required to take custody of every citizens arrest, even when the elements of the crime were clearly not met. so that resulted in people getting booked even though the cops knew they did nothing illegal. The cops had to take you in even if you were innocent.

The legislature changed it and now the cops only have to accept the citizens arrest if the officer believes the crime was in fact committed.


To the OP what penal code section did you want to make a citizens arrest for? Are you sure all of the elements of that crime were met? My recommendation is you file a formal written complaint with the rangers employer. Non of the informal talk to the sarge type stuff. Formal complaint in writing at headquarters. In addition you contact the CAL-DOJ and US-DOJ.

Informal complaints by telephone to a line supervisor(SGT) are worthless. You have got to put it in writing at headquarters in the IA section for it to have any meaningful effect.

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 6:11 PM
Correct.

The problem was the police were required to take custody of every citizens arrest, even when the elements of the crime were clearly not met. so that resulted in people getting booked even though the cops knew they did nothing illegal. The cops had to take you in even if you were innocent.

The legislature changed it and now the cops only have to accept the citizens arrest if the officer believes the crime was in fact committed.


To the OP what penal code section did you want to make a citizens arrest for? Are you sure all of the elements of that crime were met? My recommendation is you file a formal written complaint with the rangers employer. Non of the informal talk to the sarge type stuff. Formal complaint in writing at headquarters. In addition you contact the CAL-DOJ and US-DOJ.

Informal complaints by telephone to a line supervisor(SGT) are worthless. You have got to put it in writing at headquarters in the IA section for it to have any meaningful effect.

I am filling a complaint and following up

WokMaster1
01-15-2010, 6:15 PM
Father in law and I were shooting today and this guy I have had problems with before shows up, he tell us empty your gun! open the slide! turn the gun around! then he starts screaming out 2 fingers 2 fingers! then points his gun at us!:eek: We both asked him are you crazy? why are you pointed a gun at us we are not doing anything wrong and are complying to your demands?
I contact his office and supervisors are not going to be in until Tue, I walk in the ranger station holding my 19 month old son and he unbuckles his holster!! then asks me if I am threatening him? I call the Sheriffs department and attempt to place him under citizens arrest, the sheriff showed up and handcuffed me and started searching me!! At the end of it all he would not arrest him nor file a police report! So much for my rights.:cool:

Sorry that this had to happen to you. You could have gone home, calmed down & start writing a report of what had happened. And then after you've done that, file a report with the SO & his superiors. Details will be your ally.

nick
01-15-2010, 6:22 PM
Perhaps you both are a little over-zealous due to your previous encounters?

Could the officer be overzealous due to the previous encounter?

ChrisTKHarris
01-15-2010, 6:25 PM
Could the officer be overzealous due to the previous encounter?

Personal jinx, you owe me a coke.

beyaaah
01-15-2010, 6:59 PM
You talked about other contacts with this LEO. Would you care to expand on that?

BTW I have also had an encounter with USFS LEO that went bad. I feel your pain.

capo
01-15-2010, 9:54 PM
Did I read it correctly that you tried to place a peace officer under citizens arrest? :rofl2:

seth12
01-15-2010, 11:04 PM
Did I read it correctly that you tried to place a peace officer under citizens arrest? :rofl2:

lol.... i was just thinking the same thing.

and what crime did he commit? im pretty sure a leo can legally point his gun at you. and if you had previous encounters with the guy, then you should be well aware of the two-finger rule. :D

Maestro Pistolero
01-15-2010, 11:17 PM
I believe that LE has gotten entirely too lax about when to point a gun at someone. It is just f'ing dangerous and unnecessary in so many cases. The low-ready offers just as much advantage in officer safety. It takes only a tenth of a second from low ready to bang, but it is so much safer. All that seems to be needed to point a gun at someone now is mere possession of a weapon, even if legally possessed. The circumstances, the behavior of the subject, whether the gun is holstered means nothing. It is freaking out of control.

JBird33
01-15-2010, 11:26 PM
I am almost positive that FS officers do not have cameras.

Cokebottle
01-15-2010, 11:31 PM
lol.... i was just thinking the same thing.

and what crime did he commit? im pretty sure a leo can legally point his gun at you. and if you had previous encounters with the guy, then you should be well aware of the two-finger rule. :D
It's called assault with a deadly weapon.

No crime was being committed, there was no justification for felony arrest procedures... especially when there was no intent to even make an arrest.


Jeez... on the one hand, 90% of the forum members have a problem with being "swept" by an unloaded gun, and here we have "it's okay" for a cop to intentionally point a gun at you that you KNOW is loaded (and chambered)... most likely finger on the trigger... as a routine part of a request to unload weapons upon contact?

nick
01-15-2010, 11:38 PM
Personal jinx, you owe me a coke.

Sure, drive down to one of the AK build parties in SoCal. The coke's on me :)

Whiskey84
01-16-2010, 12:17 AM
Yeah what does "two fingers" mean?

I have too many jokes for this question. :43:

Sounds shady that nobody is listening to your complaints (which are valid)

Hunt
01-16-2010, 12:17 AM
You have got to put it in writing at headquarters in the IA section for it to have any meaningful effect.

better do it right fast as there are time limits to file a complaint
sounds like another case of citizens rights being violated, we need to stand up and fight everytime they are violated. Sounds like this LE should have been hiking up remote canyons to find the illegal pot growers instead of messing with law abiding citizens.

five.five-six
01-16-2010, 12:39 AM
Father in law and I were shooting today and this guy I have had problems with before shows up, he tell us empty your gun! open the slide! turn the gun around! then he starts screaming out 2 fingers 2 fingers! then points his gun at us!:eek: We both asked him are you crazy? why are you pointed a gun at us we are not doing anything wrong and are complying to your demands?
I contact his office and supervisors are not going to be in until Tue, I walk in the ranger station holding my 19 month old son and he unbuckles his holster!! then asks me if I am threatening him? I call the Sheriffs department and attempt to place him under citizens arrest, the sheriff showed up and handcuffed me and started searching me!! At the end of it all he would not arrest him nor file a police report! So much for my rights.:cool:

park rangers are sort of the tacticool mall ninjas of law enforcement

ok, seriously

when you talk to his supervisor, he is going to try to convince you now to file a written report and that he will talk to him and straighten this all out

don't bite, I am all for LEO camaraderie, but this is were it goes to far, if the guy is upholstering on someone holding an infant, this needs to go on his perm record B4 he hurts someone


if you are full of it, this will be his only report, but if the guy is a wack job, your report will mean millions more to the family of whoever he does kill/injure


*****edit****

I would start writing the report now. be factual, less emotional, times are important in a review, they will trip him up when he is interviewed... anything you say that can be shown to be nonfactual will be used to dismiss your complaint. if you attach a prep written statement, make sure you clearly note that it was attached and the name of the officer that received it from you on the report, ask for a copy of the report

five.five-six
01-16-2010, 12:58 AM
I think you may be overreacting

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_D_shot09.4c2e8eb.html

http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-01-07/news/17199495_1_videos-use-of-force-experts-officer-johannes-mehserle

I think you were safe

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vantec08
01-16-2010, 3:56 AM
I hear LEOs say "the few bad apples among you guys is messing it up for all of you" -- - - - evidently they dont get that the same holds true for THEM. Had a similar situation with another type of authority-cowboy, a BLM ranger. We were camping in the unrestricted desert, and when he confronted us and realized his "authority" didnt impress anyone, he said he would be back. The next morning he was - - - with another ranger and a Game Warden. We did the whole shakedown routine. They didnt find anything illegal, but that wasnt their point. Their point was pure power. . .. pure "authority." They are pushing the envelope guys.

B Strong
01-16-2010, 6:13 AM
It's called assault with a deadly weapon.

No crime was being committed, there was no justification for felony arrest procedures... especially when there was no intent to even make an arrest.


Jeez... on the one hand, 90% of the forum members have a problem with being "swept" by an unloaded gun, and here we have "it's okay" for a cop to intentionally point a gun at you that you KNOW is loaded (and chambered)... most likely finger on the trigger... as a routine part of a request to unload weapons upon contact?

I don't believe that anybody is OK with having a firearm pointed at them loaded or not, LE or not, but we realize that attempting to CA an LEO for doing so is a no-win situation.

In this instance, SO pulls up on two shooters with firearms in hand. No DA is going to go along with criminal charges for pointing his duty weapon at the shooters, and what damages were suffered to justify a civil claim? The attorney on the scene isn't "passionate" about what happened, probably because he knows enough to realize that the deal is a no-goer from the start.

I'm not stating that the SO was acting correctly, I'm stating that the guy can't be successfully prosecuted or sued.

Best of luck to the OP, but you're in a losing battle.

jamesob
01-16-2010, 8:11 AM
do you have any friends that are cops? if so take them with you next time when this ahole is working. no better witness than a leo.

ChrisTKHarris
01-16-2010, 8:37 AM
Sure, drive down to one of the AK build parties in SoCal. The coke's on me :)

:D:D

IGOTDIRT4U
01-16-2010, 10:09 AM
do you have any friends that are cops? if so take them with you next time when this ahole is working. no better witness than a leo.

That's what I was thinking. Or maybe we need to hold a CG shoot-n-meet there with 1LISpace. Hard to argue against 20-30 witnesses.

aileron
01-16-2010, 10:15 AM
Document everything, record all encounters with voice and video recorders, complain up and outside his chain of command, talk to the press about the out of control deputy (don't wear camo when talking to the media), write to the mayor, call the CHP if the sheriff doesn't help.

Along these lines also remember if this guy is doing this to other people its only a matter of time before he does pull the trigger on someone. From the sounds of it they will try to cover it up. If you have gone through all the trouble to make sure this is recorded as an official complaint and he does kill an innocent shooter it will be that much harder on him to plead his innocence.

Soldier415
01-16-2010, 10:30 AM
tag

RandyD
01-16-2010, 10:54 AM
As mentioned earlier in this thread, and I concur, the District Attorney will most likely not file charges based on a LEO pointing a firearm at someone who is armed. Most likely you will need to file a civil complaint in federal court for a civil rights violations.

I encourage you to pursue this matter to the full extent possible. I would start now and write a complete detailed statement and keep refining it and amending it until it is complete and through. You need to lodge a complaint with both LE agencies and press the issue for both to investigate. This guy is a loose cannon, and it is a matter of time before he hurts or kills someone.

Sniper3142
01-16-2010, 11:57 AM
You will get NO HELP from this cops boss or anyone else in his chain of command.

The "Blue Wall of Silence" from LEOs will cover and support this guy and everything he did. They will never admit he did anything wrong or outside of his "authority".

:(

Your best bet is to get an attorney and a voice / video recorder and capture everything that happens regarding this.

hollowpoint67
01-16-2010, 12:38 PM
some good advice on here...


personally id get some period blood on him...

I hear that **** attracts bears.

SteveH
01-16-2010, 1:22 PM
I remember that one, I almost couldn't believe it when I read about it:

Former deputy pleads guilty in lobster poaching ruse (http://www.ocregister.com/articles/robb-222081-romero-lobsters.html)

ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPUTY CONVICTED OF OBSTRUCTING FISH AND GAME WARDEN IN ILLEGAL LOBSTER POACHING CASE BY FALSELY CLAIMING OFF-DUTY DEPUTY WAS A CONFIDENTIAL INFORMANT (http://capistranoinsider.typepad.com/the_sheriffs_blogger/2009/12/orange-county-sheriffs-deputy-convicted-of-obstructing-fish-and-game-warden-in-illegal-lobster-poach.html)

I remember that one. Actually only one cop, the on duty officer, lied. He was rightfully convicted and resigned. The off duty cops didnt lie, they just refused to incriminate themselves. The same thing any suspect has the right to do. I'm not sure why the DA only prosecuted two of the four.

Hunt
01-16-2010, 1:45 PM
this is very important there are time limits to file complaints, I was going to file an IA complaint but waited too long. I was waiting for ticket appeals decisions to come in, which I won, but put me outside time window to file IA complaint.

sfpcservice
01-16-2010, 1:58 PM
OP,

Here is a link to the US Department of Justice. A short ways down the page you will find link to file a complaint on Federal Law Enforcement Officers.

http://www.justice.gov/crt/cor/index.php

Filing here will make it a bit harder for a local Supervisor to sweep it under the rug.

Also,

If you're upset about the Local Law Enforcement Officer, you might consider filing a complaint with the Grand Jury of the County the incident happened in.

D53
01-16-2010, 2:04 PM
Yeah what does "two fingers" mean?

I am guessing suppressed daddy memories? :eek:

Meplat
01-16-2010, 2:56 PM
and what damages were suffered to justify a civil claim?

I wear very expensive underwear!

Seriously IA is the way to go. Squawk like a flamming duck. And why not call the SO and CHP, you know they won't arrest their own but it may generate some documentation.

RandyD
01-16-2010, 3:40 PM
Based on my knowledge, a complaint of this type, once it is received by those who are above his field supervisors, it will receive the proper attention. I am unaware of a single LE agency in California that would approve of this officer's conduct.

SJgunguy24
01-16-2010, 4:22 PM
This kind of reminds me of the "Mag in or mag out" thread from a couple days ago.

If nobody is willing to stand up and punch these guys in the nose when they are wrong, they continue to abuse the power they are entrusted with.

The key word is "trust", we trust they will use common sense and sound judgement. Mostly they do, but when there is a loose cannon like this guy seems to be, it'll take an innocent person to be killed before anything gets done.

Remember Ruby Ridge, Vicky was killed while posing zero threat and holding her 10 month old son. You holding a 19 month old while walking towards the LEO may be deemed a threat. Sad but true.

vantec08
01-16-2010, 4:58 PM
Same here Meplat . . . . . game wardens are frequently more knowledgeable about guns laws than most on-the-street LEOs. Have to admit in the situation I described, we got off to a rocky start cause when he asked "you guys got anything you dont want me to see?" this one guy said "just a couple of tortoises I stashed in my trunk". John was trying to break the ice, but it just cranked the cowboy up. He said "then I will have to search your car." John said "that would be a mistake" - - and we held our ground.

SJgunguy24
01-16-2010, 5:09 PM
Same here Meplat . . . . . game wardens are frequently more knowledgeable about guns laws than most on-the-street LEOs. Have to admit in the situation I described, we got off to a rocky start cause when he asked "you guys got anything you dont want me to see?" this one guy said "just a couple of tortoises I stashed in my trunk". John was trying to break the ice, but it just cranked the cowboy up. He said "then I will have to search your car." John said "that would be a mistake" - - and we held our ground.


Shoulda said "Ya, just pulled some Abalone out of that dry creek bad back there away."
Maybe he could have seen the joke in that. We had the BLM guys walk up on us at Panoche, I was mixing 2 lbs of Tannerite and had another 20+lbs in front of me.
He just shook his head, but when we shot it he was doubled over laughing his azz off. Both of them thought that was the greatest stuff next to sliced bread.

Cokebottle
01-16-2010, 5:14 PM
"you guys got anything you dont want me to see?"
This kind of question pisses me off... it is a direct violation of the 4th and 5th as it cannot be answered.

The natural answer would be "No sir"
At that point, you have just consented to an illegal search because you have told him that you don't care if he sees what you have.

If you answer "yes", he can then attempt to claim reasonable suspicion based on your admission that you have items that you don't want him to see.

SJgunguy24
01-16-2010, 5:22 PM
This kind of question pisses me off... it is a direct violation of the 4th and 5th as it cannot be answered.

The natural answer would be "No sir"
At that point, you have just consented to an illegal search because you have told him that you don't care if he sees what you have.

If you answer "yes", he can then attempt to claim reasonable suspicion based on your admission that you have items that you don't want him to see.

Tell him Hell yeah! I got a box full of kitty porn, why you wanna see it!!!!



















http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo212/ariellogsdon/dec18o9024.jpg

Seesm
01-16-2010, 5:28 PM
we did not comply to "2 fingers! 2 fingers!" I had no idea what the hell he was talking about.:TFH:

This guy has issues with me, last time he started to go through my Jeep with out asking permission.

2 fingers mean "Throw up a peace sign homey or I will shoot you" JK this sounds like total B.S. do a report makes sure you have a copy and it is ON file so if something worse happens you have documentation... Sounds nuts really the whole deal.

Years ago I got into a scuffle at a off highway vehicle park with another rider and the ranger pulled a pistol on us both as we did not stop fighting right when he asked us to... Back then it seemed like not all that big of a deal but now as I am older and wiser I think it sucks... :) Push for justice!!

And a "Meet and greet" shooting deal with you at said area may be in order... Did you have any EBR's with you? That woudl have gone over like a fart in church I bet...

vantec08
01-16-2010, 5:36 PM
LOL SJGuy!

SJgunguy24
01-16-2010, 5:43 PM
LOL SJGuy!

This was getting a little heated, thought i'd add a little comedy.

You gotta be careful with some of the federal LEO's. They know back up could take hours and they're gonna do whatever they think will ensure their safety.

Window_Seat
01-16-2010, 5:45 PM
"you guys got anything you dont want me to see?"

This kind of question pisses me off... it is a direct violation of the 4th and 5th as it cannot be answered.

The natural answer would be "No sir"
At that point, you have just consented to an illegal search because you have told him that you don't care if he sees what you have.

If you answer "yes", he can then attempt to claim reasonable suspicion based on your admission that you have items that you don't want him to see.

What I would say in that case is "I do not agree with the premise of that question, and I will decline to answer based on my constitutional rights".

Erik.

Cokebottle
01-16-2010, 5:58 PM
What I would say in that case is "I do not agree with the premise of that question, and I will decline to answer based on my constitutional rights".
Ding ding ding.

Correct answer.

vantec08
01-16-2010, 6:16 PM
It didnt have a THING to do with "safety" - - - his, ours, the taxpayers, or the tortoises. He was the very embodiment of modern government, that is, there is only TWO things they want you to know:

1 -- We have some authority

2 -- its going to cost you some money.

SJgunguy24
01-16-2010, 6:23 PM
It didnt have a THING to do with "safety" - - - his, ours, the taxpayers, or the tortoises. He was the very embodiment of modern government, that is, there is only TWO things they want you to know:

1 -- We have some authority

2 -- its going to cost you some money.


True, but they also forget that the power they have is granted by the people to protect the people, not to harass the people.

Like I said before, they will not stop untill the people punch them in the nose. A bully will not stop being a bully untill they bleed, unfortunatly we can only do that through the courts. In the mean time you make the wrong move and they can kill you and they are the only witness left to testify.

That is why we need to have a way to record any and all LEO contacts so just in case, you get that one bad seed, you can make him pay.

Vanguard
01-16-2010, 6:28 PM
True, but they also forget that the power they have is granted by the people to protect the people, not to harass the people.

Like I said before, they will not stop untill the people punch them in the nose. A bully will not stop being a bully untill they bleed, unfortunatly we can only do that through the courts. In the mean time you make the wrong move and they can kill you and they are the only witness left to testify.

That is why we need to have a way to record any and all LEO contacts so just in case, you get that one bad seed, you can make him pay.


The only problem with that is, the LEO can say whatever he wants and the judge is more likely to believe him than you. Not only that, it doesn't cost the LEO anything where you would have to hire a lawyer and take time off of work to fight it. The system is stacked against the average citizen.

SJgunguy24
01-16-2010, 6:32 PM
The only problem with that is, the LEO can say whatever he wants and the judge is more likely to believe him than you. Not only that, it doesn't cost the LEO anything where you would have to hire a lawyer and take time off of work to fight it. The system is stacked against the average citizen.

Yes and no, if the LEO has a file full of complaints and it keeps happening then his credibility will go down the tubes fast. IIRC if you win your case the loser can be on the hook for your court and lawyer fees.
Last I checked your tried by a jury not a judge.

camsoup
01-16-2010, 6:36 PM
Last I checked your tried by a jury not a judge.


Tell that to Theseus.... :mad:


File a complaint with IA, make it so he and his superiors can't cover it up. I agree, next time your shooting take friends who our lawyers, and others that are LEO.

woodey
01-16-2010, 6:43 PM
No matter who I talked to it's falling on def ears.

Sound's like your bumping into the blue wall

Cokebottle
01-16-2010, 6:44 PM
File a complaint with IA, make it so he and his superiors can cover it up.
It won't be covered up.

Nothing will be done about it, but a written complaint WILL go into his file.

They hate that.

He might try to "take it out" on you one more time... then the next complaint goes into his file, and at that point, word gets out in the office that "XYZ" is not to be eff'd with.

When it comes time for promotion, every one of those complaints in his file will come back to haunt him.
EVERYONE who is harassed or otherwise dealt with in an unprofessional manner owes it to every other citizen of this country to file a written complaint.
That is the only power we have, and if we don't use it, we are destined for an out of control police state.

Cops that stay on the right side of the law have nothing to fear. Do your job, and treat us like human beings instead of every contact being treated like a felon and there's nothing to worry about.

beyaaah
01-16-2010, 6:47 PM
>>>

RandyD
01-16-2010, 6:58 PM
Yes and no, if the LEO has a file full of complaints and it keeps happening then his credibility will go down the tubes fast. IIRC if you win your case the loser can be on the hook for your court and lawyer fees.
Last I checked your tried by a jury not a judge.

you are correct, and attorneys can file a Pitchess motion with the court which requires the LE agency to turn over the LEO's records which includes all complaints and discipline.

tuolumnejim
01-16-2010, 8:13 PM
Yes and no, if the LEO has a file full of complaints and it keeps happening then his credibility will go down the tubes fast. IIRC if you win your case the loser can be on the hook for your court and lawyer fees.
Last I checked your tried by a jury not a judge.

Sorry but from what I've seen with my own eye's, they'll cover each others butts over your dead body.

SJgunguy24
01-16-2010, 8:25 PM
Sorry but from what I've seen with my own eye's, they'll cover each others butts over your dead body.

Sounds like that could be a RICO case if the corruption goes high enough. A case like that could be the type that would get the ACLU on our side.

SteveH
01-17-2010, 11:24 AM
Sorry but from what I've seen with my own eye's, they'll cover each others butts over your dead body.

From my experiance training police officers i can tell you any complaint, even an unfounded complaint is a huge headache for the officer. A pattern of complaints, even meritless ones, will often result in loss of a desirable assignment. Founded complaints will often result in loss or pay up to unemployment.

eta34
01-17-2010, 11:35 AM
you are correct, and attorneys can file a Pitchess motion with the court which requires the LE agency to turn over the LEO's records which includes all complaints and discipline.

This is not entirely correct. The judge will have to grant the motion. It is not automatic that the discipline records are given to the opposing counsel.

Cokebottle
01-17-2010, 11:37 AM
A pattern of complaints, even meritless ones, will often result in loss of a desirable assignment.
Well... the guy is working the Hemet area.
Ain't mountain, ain't desert... just.... dirt :D
That wouldn't be my first choice for assignment ;)

tyrist
01-17-2010, 11:41 AM
This is not entirely correct. The judge will have to grant the motion. It is not automatic that the discipline records are given to the opposing counsel.

And usually doesn't absent some very very compelling reason.

Eat Dirt
01-17-2010, 11:44 AM
Well... the guy is working the Hemet area.
Ain't mountain, ain't desert... just.... dirt :D
That wouldn't be my first choice for assignment ;)

REALLY ???????????????

Been building "Mountain Cabins " up there since '76

Cokebottle
01-17-2010, 11:47 AM
REALLY ???????????????

Been build "Mountain Cabins " up there since '76
Does his patrol area cover up into the nice parts of that mountain? ;)

Eat Dirt
01-17-2010, 12:11 PM
Does his patrol area cover up into the nice parts of that mountain? ;)

The Entire San Jacinto range

From Sugarloaf Mt . /Thomas Mt./ Apple Canyon /Rouse ridge./Lake Fillmore/Dark Canyon / Ranger Peak
ALL the Camping Areas on the "Hill "
And Yes,, even Lake Hemet

Dr. Peter Venkman
01-17-2010, 1:00 PM
How could they even see you in your camouflage?

chris
01-17-2010, 1:21 PM
You will get NO HELP from this cops boss or anyone else in his chain of command.

The "Blue Wall of Silence" from LEOs will cover and support this guy and everything he did. They will never admit he did anything wrong or outside of his "authority".

:(

Your best bet is to get an attorney and a voice / video recorder and capture everything that happens regarding this.

that is the sad truth.:(

NorCalMama
01-17-2010, 1:30 PM
Did I read it correctly that you tried to place a peace officer under citizens arrest? :rofl2:

9efgLHgsBmM

532Fastback
01-17-2010, 1:40 PM
USFS has a long standing history of protecting their own at the expense of others. Everything from accidents/injuries on the fire ground to the acts of their LEOs. I would love to see them set straight but, good luck fighting "The Man"!

That's not entirely true.Engineers and up are told to get liability insurance because you'll be left out in the rain if you screw up and someones house burns down. i am just a 4th year FF and they are already pushing liability insurance on me.

nitrofc
01-17-2010, 2:04 PM
I remember that report by the late Hal Fishman.
Wasn't this poor guy a U.S. Soldier just back from Iraq and a passenger in his buddies car?

That's a hard one to watch.

.


I think you may be overreacting

http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_D_shot09.4c2e8eb.html

http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-01-07/news/17199495_1_videos-use-of-force-experts-officer-johannes-mehserle

I think you were safe

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/uIedW4HG5gE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/uIedW4HG5gE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

1lostinspace
01-17-2010, 3:57 PM
do you have any friends that are cops? if so take them with you next time when this ahole is working. no better witness than a leo.

I have alot of friends in LE they all said "you should have video taped them while one LE was sent out to arrest the other LE"

1lostinspace
01-17-2010, 3:59 PM
Does his patrol area cover up into the nice parts of that mountain? ;)



yeah he is everywhere.

1lostinspace
01-17-2010, 4:01 PM
How could they even see you in your camouflage?

yeah I am out target shooting wearing camo, I am sure someone whould shoot me after a while if this cowboy LE didn't

DedEye
01-17-2010, 4:09 PM
How could they even see you in your camouflage?

I made that joke already.

dadoody
01-17-2010, 4:15 PM
Father in law and I were shooting today and this guy I have had problems with before shows up, he tell us empty your gun! open the slide! turn the gun around! then he starts screaming out 2 fingers 2 fingers! then points his gun at us!:eek: We both asked him are you crazy? why are you pointed a gun at us we are not doing anything wrong and are complying to your demands?
I contact his office and supervisors are not going to be in until Tue, I walk in the ranger station holding my 19 month old son and he unbuckles his holster!! then asks me if I am threatening him? I call the Sheriffs department and attempt to place him under citizens arrest, the sheriff showed up and handcuffed me and started searching me!! At the end of it all he would not arrest him nor file a police report! So much for my rights.:cool:

What's his name?

1lostinspace
01-17-2010, 4:39 PM
What's his name?

Matt rogers

Dr. Peter Venkman
01-17-2010, 5:31 PM
I made that joke already.

Haha, sorry, didn't read the thread.

RP1911
01-17-2010, 5:51 PM
Matt rogers

Older guy or younger guy?

mather911
01-17-2010, 9:46 PM
Is he Federal or State? Federal I would contact your Congressman.

Meplat
01-17-2010, 10:28 PM
Why not set up a video sting on this guy? I'm sure he and his superiors would love to see him making an *** of himself on U-Tube, especially after you document that they were warned about him.

Doheny
01-17-2010, 10:49 PM
Father in law and I were shooting today...

/\ /\ ... That's the reason he had his gun out; because you had yours out. If he thought you were doing something wrong, do you really expect him to approach you with his gun holstered while you two were shooting yours? There have been plenty of rangers/wildlife LE types shot and killed by hunters/shooters.

Hate to be a naysayer, but your complaint won't be going anywhere. The fact that you tried a private persons arrest is laughable.

.

OleCuss
01-18-2010, 5:40 AM
/\ /\ ... That's the reason he had his gun out; because you had yours out. If he thought you were doing something wrong, do you really expect him to approach you with his gun holstered while you two were shooting yours? There have been plenty of rangers/wildlife LE types shot and killed by hunters/shooters.

Hate to be a naysayer, but your complaint won't be going anywhere. The fact that you tried a private persons arrest is laughable.

.

This!

Important to remember that the lawyer on the scene is not pursuing action (IIRC).

I'd also note that there were two of you and one of him. He apparently had no backup. Makes the situation much more dangerous for him.

I honestly think that I'd send a note to the guy saying that I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and offering to buy him a soda/beer. This would probably be the best way to ensure that you are not obstructed in your further enjoyment of that area.

vantec08
01-18-2010, 6:53 AM
Maybe O. Bammy will call and offer a beer get together. whatta guy.

BigJim_610
01-18-2010, 9:39 AM
That some USFS LEO do indeed have video recorders and wireless microphones because I have seen and touched them.

I am almost positive that FS officers do not have cameras.

Dr. Peter Venkman
01-18-2010, 10:39 AM
That some USFS LEO do indeed have video recorders and wireless microphones because I have seen and touched them.

Touched what?

Cokebottle
01-18-2010, 11:21 AM
/\ /\ ... That's the reason he had his gun out; because you had yours out. If he thought you were doing something wrong, do you really expect him to approach you with his gun holstered while you two were shooting yours? There have been plenty of rangers/wildlife LE types shot and killed by hunters/shooters.
Low ready, yes.

Aimed AT them? Not until pulling the trigger is inevitable.

OleCuss
01-18-2010, 1:27 PM
Touched what?

I hope that question is not answered. . .

luckystrike
01-18-2010, 7:12 PM
I'd REALLY like to know that answer to that question too...:toetap05:


hmm.. im at a loss due to not seeing these origional postings on either page 1 or 2...?

Meplat
01-18-2010, 7:15 PM
/\ /\ ... That's the reason he had his gun out; because you had yours out. If he thought you were doing something wrong, do you really expect him to approach you with his gun holstered while you two were shooting yours? There have been plenty of rangers/wildlife LE types shot and killed by hunters/shooters.

Hate to be a naysayer, but your complaint won't be going anywhere. The fact that you tried a private persons arrest is laughable.

.

That is bull****. I did a survey a while back about the number of conservation officers who have been shot in the line of duty. The number was zero!

Doheny
01-18-2010, 8:17 PM
That is bull****. I did a survey a while back about the number of conservation officers who have been shot in the line of duty. The number was zero!

Get your facts straight before you call BS on someone. You should either learn to count or search:

http://www.whnt.com/news/whnt-tennessee-wildlife-officer-shot-123009,0,5479913.story
http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/news/crime/shot-fired-at-wildlife-officer-strikes-vehicle-376781.html
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/pierson-fl/TH2MEJ7ALOVRRR0L6
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/20067617/detail.html
http://www.myoutdoortv.com/news/agfc-wildlife-officer-shot-while-on-routine-patrol-in-nlr.html
http://www.fwoa.org/views.html

Alex$
01-18-2010, 9:44 PM
Tennessee
Ohio
Florida
Florida
Arkansas
Idaho

Conservation Officers (a rose by any other name) but all out of state.

Rather troubling account by OP.

Cokebottle
01-18-2010, 9:47 PM
Get your facts straight before you call BS on someone. You should either learn to count or search:
I didn't read the links, but I'm assuming that 6 officers or teams (12 officers?) have been shot.

How many police officers are shot every day?
The public would not tolerate every encounter with the PD going down with a gun drawn and aimed at them.

Doheny
01-18-2010, 10:10 PM
... all out of state.



What does out of state have to do with anything? These were in CA, if that matters:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2002/12/11/BA137054.DTL

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SJ&s_site=mercurynews&p_multi=SJ&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB71B6F0E4A5712&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM



The public would not tolerate every encounter with the PD going down with a gun drawn and aimed at them.

Of course they wouldn't. But, if they (the public) where shooting/handling guns when that encounter took place, you could bet the cops would have theirs drawn.

.

rambo
01-18-2010, 10:34 PM
it is a sad day when just being around guns makes LE wet themselves. the future of this society is at risk with thinking like this. I would tell everyone who would listen and those who would not until they got the message. good luck keep us posted.

Serpentine
01-18-2010, 11:21 PM
OP,

Here is a link to the US Department of Justice. A short ways down the page you will find link to file a complaint on Federal Law Enforcement Officers.

http://www.justice.gov/crt/cor/index.php

Filing here will make it a bit harder for a local Supervisor to sweep it under the rug.

Also,

If you're upset about the Local Law Enforcement Officer, you might consider filing a complaint with the Grand Jury of the County the incident happened in.

Agree!

Look at it this way. Whether this took place on National Forest, BLM, a public shooting range, or permitted shooting event, you were within the law. This guy is a loose cannon for drawing his weapon on law abiding citizens and the event needs to be documented with top authorities mentioned above for public safety.

How is this any different than you practicing at a public indoor or outdoor shooting range, and the guy in the next lane points his gun at you, peace officer or not?

That officer should be evaluated for 5150.




.

Meplat
01-18-2010, 11:31 PM
My bad, I guess. My survey was spacific to game warden types.



What does out of state have to do with anything? These were in CA, if that matters:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2002/12/11/BA137054.DTL

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SJ&s_site=mercurynews&p_multi=SJ&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB71B6F0E4A5712&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM



Of course they wouldn't. But, if they (the public) where shooting/handling guns when that encounter took place, you could bet the cops would have theirs drawn.

.

Cokebottle
01-19-2010, 5:37 AM
Of course they wouldn't. But, if they (the public) where shooting/handling guns when that encounter took place, you could bet the cops would have theirs drawn.
Again, drawn and at a low-ready, I don't have a problem with, and would expect that if I were handling a gun.

Aimed AT me? I'm not going to be listening to "Two fingers" or unloading and opening the action on my gun... I'm going to be dropping it and stepping away from it.

A felony arrest procedure is NOT APPROPRIATE when making contact with recreational shooters and hunters.

OleCuss
01-19-2010, 6:53 AM
OK, let's review this once again. Correct me if I've got the particulars wrong. . .

The OP and a lawyer were shooting. A single LEO who had apparently had (at least from his perspective) problems with the OP before comes upon the two and tells them to use two fingers to put down their weapons. Apparently the LEO had drawn his weapon and it was pointed in the direction of the OP (not entirely clear to me that the LEO was in a Weaver stance or anything similar). The OP eventually puts down his weapon and complies but then tries to arrest the LEO.

The lawyer who also presumably was held at gunpoint does not appear to deem the incident worthy of pursuit.

If the OP believes he was wrongfully treated then he should pursue the case with written complaints and hire a lawyer.

But considering that the lawyer who was also present at the time doesn't seem to think there is a case worth pursuing - I'm in favor of dropping all complaints and making nice with the LEO. I think the LEO's perspective would be miles apart from the OP's perspective and might be worth a darn.

pepsi2451
01-19-2010, 12:17 PM
Why did he even stop? Did he have some reason to think you were doing something wrong? I would definitely file a complaint, at least he might think twice about drawing on someone next time.

DTOM CA!
01-19-2010, 12:48 PM
IMO We should make a complaint every time LE/Rangers overstep there bounds. It will make a fundamental change in there thinking so that an Officer will only stop you if there is a clear violation of the law being committed at that moment. As of now they have free reign to stop you and start looking around to see if they can get you for something. You are automatically guilty of something if you have a gun and it is not locked up and unloaded. Most people focus on the keeping of arms in 2A. I worry as much in the "bear arms shall not be infringed" part. I was driving to Burro Canyon to go shooting and a Police car got behind me. I was very nervous about getting pulled over even though everything was legal. It should not be that way having the 2A as a right.

1lostinspace
01-20-2010, 10:32 AM
Older guy or younger guy?

younger

1lostinspace
01-20-2010, 10:33 AM
/\ /\ ... That's the reason he had his gun out; because you had yours out. If he thought you were doing something wrong, do you really expect him to approach you with his gun holstered while you two were shooting yours? There have been plenty of rangers/wildlife LE types shot and killed by hunters/shooters.

Hate to be a naysayer, but your complaint won't be going anywhere. The fact that you tried a private persons arrest is laughable.

.

he did approach with gun holstered had us unload guns then pulled his out.

1lostinspace
01-20-2010, 1:33 PM
get this crap! I called his supervisor and talked to his secretary that will be relaying my message for him to call me and here is what she said

" Oh Matt (the LE I am trying to file a complaint on) oh he is a good boy, I am sure he did what he did for a reason"

pepsi2451
01-20-2010, 1:54 PM
he did approach with gun holstered had us unload guns then pulled his out.

He pulled his gun on you AFTER he made you unload yours?:confused:

get this crap! I called his supervisor and talked to his secretary that will be relaying my message for him to call me and here is what she said

" Oh Matt (the LE I am trying to file a complaint on) oh he is a good boy, I am sure he did what he did for a reason"

Seems like if he had a good reason to point his gun at you he would have arrested you.

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 2:13 PM
Seems like if he had a good reason to point his gun at you he would have arrested you.
Exactly.
I'm all for officer safety, and I can understand some of the guys being a bit paranoid, but a felony stop procedure is not warranted unless a felony is suspected.

You don't point a gun at another human being unless you are microseconds away from taking their life.

audiophil2
01-20-2010, 3:12 PM
it is a sad day when just being around guns makes LE wet themselves. the future of this society is at risk with thinking like this. I would tell everyone who would listen and those who would not until they got the message. good luck keep us posted.

It's not like this everywhere.

Sleepy1988
01-20-2010, 4:05 PM
What I would say in that case is "I do not agree with the premise of that question, and I will decline to answer based on my constitutional rights".

Erik.

He would probably claim that your answer constitutes probable cause and search you anyway.

Cokebottle
01-20-2010, 4:16 PM
He would probably claim that your answer constitutes probable cause and search you anyway.
Which would be illegal.

Gryff
01-20-2010, 6:19 PM
I'm really sorry to hear that you are losing sleep, having nightmares when you do sleep, suffer insurmountable depression, and having your work affected.

When is your lawyer serving the summons to this douchebag?

N6ATF
01-20-2010, 6:40 PM
Which would be illegal.

And when has that ever gone unprosecuted? :rolleyes:

1lostinspace
01-22-2010, 11:05 AM
finally got to the top of the tree and are waiting to here back from them.
In this weather you would think that they would be in the office doing paper work and calling people back.

This is our tax money at work.

Stoner
01-22-2010, 3:29 PM
So hows the law suit going, were you able to find an attorney to take your case??

50 Freak
01-22-2010, 4:13 PM
To the original poster. Please take my advice.

SHUT YOUR MOUTH AND STOP POSTING. You are going to make it worse for yourself should this go to court or this progesses to something other than just a complaint.

My advice if you are not happy (and you have every reason to be). File a complaint with this officer's superiors. Send it certified. Make copies and file a complaint with IA (CC the officer's superiors). File a complaint with Santa Claus if you have too, (make copies and CC the officer's superiors, IA, etc).

Let each one of them know that you are fully covering all your bases. This will force them to look into this case. As no one wants to be the one that drops the ball when all eyes are on them.

You are probably not going to win in court. Trying to do a Citizen's Arrest on a LE is just plain stupid. You have the chips stacked solidly against you.

Buddy, play the game. play it smart and stop letting your damn emotions and big mouth get the better of you. That's the only way you are going to win.

1lostinspace
01-26-2010, 12:43 PM
Spoke to his supervisor today and from the sound of it this has happen before.

anthonyca
01-26-2010, 2:26 PM
Spoke to his supervisor today and from the sound of it this has happen before.

This is why you need to fight hard and win. Don't give up.

Meplat
01-26-2010, 6:46 PM
You don't point a gun at another human being unless you are microseconds away from taking their life.

Wisdom here!

Meplat
01-26-2010, 6:55 PM
It's not like this everywhere.

True. LE around here does not act like that. Armed does not equal 'criminal' here. How can we make that the norm for the whole state?

Every organization takes on the characteristics of it's leadership. The central problem is not this individual officer. But this individual incident may be pivotal.:43:

JohnJW
01-26-2010, 7:38 PM
Father in law and I were shooting today and this guy I have had problems with before shows up, he tell us empty your gun! open the slide! turn the gun around! then he starts screaming out 2 fingers 2 fingers! then points his gun at us!:eek: We both asked him are you crazy? why are you pointed a gun at us we are not doing anything wrong and are complying to your demands?
I contact his office and supervisors are not going to be in until Tue, I walk in the ranger station holding my 19 month old son and he unbuckles his holster!! then asks me if I am threatening him? I call the Sheriffs department and attempt to place him under citizens arrest, the sheriff showed up and handcuffed me and started searching me!! At the end of it all he would not arrest him nor file a police report! So much for my rights.:cool:


I'm usually not on the side of LEO, but I think your attempt make a citizen's arrest on a on-duty LEO at a police station is not wise. By saying you want to make a citizen's arrest of a on-duty LEO, that would imply you will need to disarm him at some point right? Your tag line says "PUREMMA MIXED MARTIAL ARTS ACADEMY" so I think you're probably not some 100lb weakling. The sheriff arrives, sees you with a baby in hand demanding a citizens arrest on an armed on-duty leo, he probably thinks you are endangering you kid. Sometimes, it's best to wait and talk to a supervisor before further escalating the situation with anyone who is armed.

Maestro Pistolero
01-26-2010, 9:57 PM
The sheriff arrives, sees you with a baby in hand demanding a citizens arrest on an armed on-duty leo, he probably thinks you are endangering you kid.That's a stretch, care to connect the dots for us?

JohnJW
01-26-2010, 11:48 PM
That's a stretch, care to connect the dots for us?

I think it's highly unusual for a guy to walk into a police station, with a baby, confronts the officer on duty, calls an officer from a different jurisdiction to help him perform a citizens arrest on the officer on duty. I though a citizen's arrest means you have to apprehend the suspect then call the police to hand over the suspect. In order for this person to perform citizen's arrest, he will have to physically "arrest" the armed officer with nothing but a baby in his arm. It's kind of like walking into a bear's den to confront the bear armed with a baby.

The headline will read, "A man with a baby attempt to perform citizen's arrest on an officer in a police station over a confrontation earlier in the day because it's Friday and he can't wait till Tuesday to file a formal complain." You don't find this strange? Why bring a baby to a volatile situation?

Maestro Pistolero
01-27-2010, 12:30 AM
A citizens arrest is rarely a hands-on event for the citizen these days. It is typically a citizen requesting an arrest, by an officer, on the word of the citizen that a crime has been committed. Verbally demanding an arrest (a citizen's arrest), however misguided, in no way endangered that baby. Unless you are alleging that the officers would have somehow put the child at risk, and I don't think you are. Now, if he had left the child unattended in the car . . . that would have been negligent.

JohnJW
01-27-2010, 12:55 AM
A citizens arrest is rarely a hands-on event for the citizen these days. It is typically a citizen requesting an arrest, by an officer, on the word of the citizen that a crime has been committed. Verbally demanding an arrest (a citizen's arrest), however misguided, in no way endangered that baby. Unless you are alleging that the officers would have somehow put the child at risk, and I don't think you are. Now, if he had left the child unattended in the car . . . that would have been negligent.

He already thinks the officer is the over zealous type and by putting himself in a confrontation that lead to him being handcuffed, he is putting his baby at risk. Perhaps the deputy asked nicely but I don't know. A deputy responding to a highly unusual situation involving a man and a baby his instinct is probably to protect the baby which may clash with the paternal instinct of the father to protect his baby as well. . . . . this of course if merely me stretching my thoughts. . . .

Giovani X
01-27-2010, 1:04 AM
Group shoot anyone?

yoteassasin
01-27-2010, 8:40 AM
I think it's highly unusual for a guy to walk into a police station, with a baby, confronts the officer on duty, calls an officer from a different jurisdiction to help him perform a citizens arrest on the officer on duty. I though a citizen's arrest means you have to apprehend the suspect then call the police to hand over the suspect. In order for this person to perform citizen's arrest, he will have to physically "arrest" the armed officer with nothing but a baby in his arm. It's kind of like walking into a bear's den to confront the bear armed with a baby.

The headline will read, "A man with a baby attempt to perform citizen's arrest on an officer in a police station over a confrontation earlier in the day because it's Friday and he can't wait till Tuesday to file a formal complain." You don't find this strange? Why bring a baby to a volatile situation?

WOW!!!!!!!!:eek: interesting to say the least

PaperPuncher
01-27-2010, 9:10 AM
This!

Not this. Perfectly legal to shoot where they were shooting. Officers don't go to the local gun range and draw down on the shooting line. If anything this guy could have just killed the real ranger took his clothes, his car, and his gear and was planning on disarming the next campers/shooters he found so he could get some less conspicuous getaway digs. However unlikely this scenario is it is possible and public safety is paramount to officer safety IMHO since it is the very thing they are serving and protecting.

Important to remember that the lawyer on the scene is not pursuing action (IIRC).

Not this either. Could have very well been a corporate or patent attourney with absolutely no knowledge of how to pursue this situation.

I'd also note that there were two of you and one of him. He apparently had no backup. Makes the situation much more dangerous for him.

Must I repeat it, ok. Not this either. He has a radio which he can use to call his entire department in for backup and wait for them to arrive if he feels the situation is dangerous enough to warrant drawing his weapon. In fact the reason he did not call for backup is probably because he was about to do something he didn't want anyone to witness (probably also the reason he made them disarm and unload before he drew down). Obviously the guys are not going to flee the scene, they have been there before, they have vehicles which are registered to them there as well as the rest of their belongings, so no need to rush into a dangerous situation.

I honestly think that I'd send a note to the guy saying that I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and offering to buy him a soda/beer. This would probably be the best way to ensure that you are not obstructed in your further enjoyment of that area.

And in conclusion...Not this. Condone the officer for being a loose cannon? Maybe he deserves a merit badge as well. The best way to make sure you are not "obstructed in your further enjoyment of that area" is to make sure that this guy loses uniform before someone loses their life.

1lostinspace
01-27-2010, 10:42 AM
WOW!!!!!!!!:eek: interesting to say the least



I did not come in to confront the officer, I came in to file a complaint, I was confronted by him.
I am more scared of my baby then him. Lol I was at a kids basketball game yesterday and there he was! After talking to some of the parents I came to find out he tried to fine an 80 year old lady for not having a fishing license, lol turns out she did and filled a complaint on him and this is his first year on the job.
In my town everyone knows everyone population 3500

xxdabroxx
01-27-2010, 11:43 AM
Any update on the complaint? What happens after a complaint is filed?

yoteassasin
01-27-2010, 12:09 PM
I did not come in to confront the officer, I came in to file a complaint, I was confronted by him.
I am more scared of my baby then him. Lol I was at a kids basketball game yesterday and there he was! After talking to some of the parents I came to find out he tried to fine an 80 year old lady for not having a fishing license, lol turns out she did and filled a complaint on him and this is his first year on the job.
In my town everyone knows everyone population 3500

hey bud im on your side! i just thought the dots might have been connected while the poster was on some sort of hallucinogen. it is amazing to me how people dream up these situations. like the heath and safety manager at work. we were driving back from a risk assessment for a big job im the project manager and she looks over and sees water fountain and says " i cant believe they(the customer) haven't been sued." and i go"why" and she replies "some one could drown in that thing" WOW!

1lostinspace
01-27-2010, 12:34 PM
Any update on the complaint? What happens after a complaint is filed?

I would not have access to his record

Cokebottle
01-27-2010, 12:44 PM
Any update on the complaint? What happens after a complaint is filed?
Isolated incident, it just goes into the officer's file.
Multiple reports?
Informal "talking to" (undocumented), formal counseling (documented), written warning, 2nd written warning, and finally termination would be the normal punitive process.

Either way though, "paper" in his file will hurt him when it comes time for transfer or promotion.

Eat Dirt
01-27-2010, 1:12 PM
Spoke to his supervisor today and from the sound of it this has happen before.


Keep making a " Stink " about it

JohnJW
01-27-2010, 1:34 PM
hey bud im on your side! i just thought the dots might have been connected while the poster was on some sort of hallucinogen. it is amazing to me how people dream up these situations. like the heath and safety manager at work. we were driving back from a risk assessment for a big job im the project manager and she looks over and sees water fountain and says " i cant believe they(the customer) haven't been sued." and i go"why" and she replies "some one could drown in that thing" WOW!

We all heard of and may have experienced over zealous egotistic LEO behavior. I understand the OP is upset with the encounter but getting himself handcuffed is not the best approach. In his mind, he already thinks this LEO is overzealous, likes to draw his weapon with the slighted provocation or no provocation at all. Knowing all this, he can't wait till after the weekend to file a report with the LEO's supervisor but had to file a complaint with the offending LEO with a baby in tow and ended up getting handcuffed by a another LEO responding to his citizen's arrest.

Unless he can get the responding LEO who handcuffed him on his side, he is weakening his own case.

A citizen's arrest on a on-duty LEO in his own police station? You don't think this is odd?

If the OP's relentless pursuit of a over-zealous LEO can bring about better treatment for his community he definitely deserve commendations. My opinion is just one of many without the aid of hallucinogens.

1lostinspace
01-27-2010, 1:36 PM
We all heard of and may have experienced over zealous egotistic LEO behavior. I understand the OP is upset with the encounter but getting himself handcuffed is not the best approach. In his mind, he already thinks this LEO is overzealous, likes to draw his weapon with the slighted provocation or no provocation at all. Knowing all this, he can't wait till after the weekend to file a report with the LEO's supervisor but had to file a complaint with the offending LEO with a baby in tow and ended up getting handcuffed by a another LEO responding to his citizen's arrest.

Unless he can get the responding LEO who handcuffed him on his side, he is weakening his own case.

A citizen's arrest on a on-duty LEO in his own police station? You don't think this is odd?

If the OP's relentless pursuit of a over-zealous LEO can bring about better treatment for his community he definitely deserve commendations. My opinion is just one of many without the aid of hallucinogens.

The problem is I would not let him handcuff me and further more drawing his weapon on me would only result in me taking it away. I am talking to his supervisors to keep this from happening. I am not stupid, I am not trying to get arrested nor shot.

eaglemike
01-27-2010, 1:39 PM
We all heard of and may have experienced over zealous egotistic LEO behavior. I understand the OP is upset with the encounter but getting himself handcuffed is not the best approach. In his mind, he already thinks this LEO is overzealous, likes to draw his weapon with the slighted provocation or no provocation at all. Knowing all this, he can't wait till after the weekend to file a report with the LEO's supervisor but had to file a complaint with the offending LEO with a baby in tow and ended up getting handcuffed by a another LEO responding to his citizen's arrest.

Unless he can get the responding LEO who handcuffed him on his side, he is weakening his own case.

A citizen's arrest on a on-duty LEO in his own police station? You don't think this is odd?

If the OP's relentless pursuit of a over-zealous LEO can bring about better treatment for his community he definitely deserve commendations. My opinion is just one of many without the aid of hallucinogens.
You made your point. Try wearing the OP's shoes....

BTW - I find it VERY UNUSUAL or VERY ODD that the LEO pointed a gun at a guy that wasn't breaking the law. Did the clear, present, imminent threat rule go away???? Did the LEO feel he was threatened? What created the threat? Maybe he (LEO) created the situation?

dantodd
01-27-2010, 1:49 PM
BTW - I find it VERY UNUSUAL or VERY ODD that the LEO pointed a gun at a guy that wasn't breaking the law.

Haven't been following the UOC issues very closely have you? you should read the article on Nate. One cop was drawn down on him while the other did an (e) check right in front of the newspaper's camera.

SVT-40
01-27-2010, 2:46 PM
Isolated incident, it just goes into the officer's file.
Multiple reports?
Informal "talking to" (undocumented), formal counseling (documented), written warning, 2nd written warning, and finally termination would be the normal punitive process.

Either way though, "paper" in his file will hurt him when it comes time for transfer or promotion.

The "discipline scale" you refer to is not exactly correct. In California discipline of LEO's must be "progressive", however depending upon the severity of the rule violation can always lead to termination.


The first stage of discipline is informal, and can consist of just a few words to a subordinate by a superior.

Beyond informal discipline, all discipline is formal and will be documented in a officers file or "jacket". The length the item will remain in a officers jacket can be from one year or up to three or more years.

The first tier is a written but "semi-formal" form of discipline called a "supervisor contact form" or "training reminders". These cannot be punitive and all must be written to the effect of remedying "training issues". I.E. "officer Jones should be reminded to keep Department policy XYZ in mind while dealing with the public".

These type of "reminders" to policy stay in a officers jacket for up to one year. No formal citizens complaint need be filed, and there is no requirement for a formal investigation for this type of discipline.


In order to receive the following formal discipline the officer must have been found in violation of a departments rules of policy or conduct AFTER a FORMAL internal investigation.

The first real level of negative discipline is known as a "Verbal reprimand".

The next level of discipline is a written reprimand.

Next comes demotion , reduction in pay or days off without pay. (what used to be called "on the beach time").

The final level of discipline is termination.

For additional information on discipline of LEO's see California Government codes 3301 through 3312.

This chapter is known and may be cited as the Public Safety
Officers Procedural Bill of Rights Act.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=63598026401+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

hawk81
01-27-2010, 4:10 PM
Get this officer fired. Keep up the good work.

eaglemike
01-27-2010, 4:25 PM
Haven't been following the UOC issues very closely have you? you should read the article on Nate. One cop was drawn down on him while the other did an (e) check right in front of the newspaper's camera.
Nope - I did see that. I do not agree the LE needed to draw a weapon. Having been in some AJ classes - unless the rules have changed, those guys need some "training." IMHO the whole "training," "training memo," "didn't have a policy in place," "didn't know the law" is an excuse, along with the "qualified immunity" thing. What does "qualified" mean? It's turned into nearly universal immunity.

all the best,
Mike

BKinzey
01-27-2010, 4:34 PM
The problem is I would not let him handcuff me and further more drawing his weapon on me would only result in me taking it away. I am talking to his supervisors to keep this from happening. I am not stupid, I am not trying to get arrested nor shot.

Not letting him handcuff you or trying to take away his weapon is definitely a way to get arrested and /or shot.

So far, with a few bumps, you've been taking the correct path in filing a complaint. If you voice this opinion to his supervisors it won't help your situation.

glendalebrigade
01-28-2010, 7:42 AM
Did I read it correctly that you tried to place a peace officer under citizens arrest? :rofl2:

You mean "Pirate" under arrest.

1lostinspace
01-28-2010, 10:24 AM
Not letting him handcuff you or trying to take away his weapon is definitely a way to get arrested and /or shot.

So far, with a few bumps, you've been taking the correct path in filing a complaint. If you voice this opinion to his supervisors it won't help your situation.

everything is going as should his supervisor is now waiting for my father in laws letter to arrive.

medicgunslinger
01-29-2010, 11:14 AM
Not letting him handcuff you or trying to take away his weapon is definitely a way to get arrested and /or shot.

So far, with a few bumps, you've been taking the correct path in filing a complaint. If you voice this opinion to his supervisors it won't help your situation.

fyi- if i did a traffic stop on my own mother, and she "tried to take my weapon away," id feel really bad about it, but would still be making her funeral plans the next day. THINK beore you speak. when you are drawn down on by a LEO, or being taken into custody, these are the times to SHUT UP AND COMPLY. defend yourself when you have your day in court, and then if you were in the right, by all means file a civil suit. i dont know you, and i dont have to- if i drew down on you for "officer safety," even if you were innocent, i had a reason. thats something not many agencies will challenge. they would rather have you rant and rave on calguns rather than put a black band around everyone else's badge.

no offense intended, but you clearly have never thought about the other side of things- when you work solo, in a remote area, with backup's eta longer than it would take to get dominos to deliver a pizza- and you know the subjects in question are armed- you dont take chances. id rather go home in one piece after my shift- sorry.

on the other hand, him drawing down on you while youre carring your baby- walking into his office..... thats not appropriate... but on second thought, why did you even go in there? just do the appropriate thing and file an official complaint through appropriate channels!

it sounds like a pissing contest on both sides- so really, neither one of you is right, you both acted like children- especially the guy pulling a gun on you and your baby. i cant quite wrap my head around thatone.

stay safe, and by all means- shoot somwhere that he dosent work!

1lostinspace
01-29-2010, 3:46 PM
fyi- if i did a traffic stop on my own mother, and she "tried to take my weapon away," id feel really bad about it, but would still be making her funeral plans the next day. THINK beore you speak. when you are drawn down on by a LEO, or being taken into custody, these are the times to SHUT UP AND COMPLY. defend yourself when you have your day in court, and then if you were in the right, by all means file a civil suit. i dont know you, and i dont have to- if i drew down on you for "officer safety," even if you were innocent, i had a reason. thats something not many agencies will challenge. they would rather have you rant and rave on calguns rather than put a black band around everyone else's badge.

no offense intended, but you clearly have never thought about the other side of things- when you work solo, in a remote area, with backup's eta longer than it would take to get dominos to deliver a pizza- and you know the subjects in question are armed- you dont take chances. id rather go home in one piece after my shift- sorry.

on the other hand, him drawing down on you while youre carring your baby- walking into his office..... thats not appropriate... but on second thought, why did you even go in there? just do the appropriate thing and file an official complaint through appropriate channels!

it sounds like a pissing contest on both sides- so really, neither one of you is right, you both acted like children- especially the guy pulling a gun on you and your baby. i cant quite wrap my head around thatone.

stay safe, and by all means- shoot somwhere that he dosent work!

I have been shooting here for 5 years and I am not going to stop.
I am bringing a video camera with me now.

DTOM CA!
01-29-2010, 3:47 PM
I think by filing a complaint it may not get him in much trouble this time. If he gets another then it starts to look like a pattern and will eventually get him in trouble. Maybe he will at least think twice next time to pull his gun when no crime has been committed. I would have no problem with the officer if he had his holster unclipped and had his hand on his weapon while giving commands.

Cokebottle
01-29-2010, 3:50 PM
I would have no problem with the officer if he had his holster unclipped and had his hand on his weapon while giving commands.
I think this is pretty much SOP. Even a low-ready wouldn't bother me that much, but if you aim it at me, it had better be because I am suspected of a felony.

1lostinspace
01-29-2010, 4:24 PM
I think by filing a complaint it may not get him in much trouble this time. If he gets another then it starts to look like a pattern and will eventually get him in trouble. Maybe he will at least think twice next time to pull his gun when no crime has been committed. I would have no problem with the officer if he had his holster unclipped and had his hand on his weapon while giving commands.

I would not either, hell even if he pulled his gun on me while I am holding a weapon.

But when he asks me to unload it and I comply then he starts to scream because I am not holding it bye 2 fingers and then pulls it...well that is bad training

GrizzlyGuy
01-29-2010, 4:27 PM
I think this is pretty much SOP. Even a low-ready wouldn't bother me that much, but if you aim it at me, it had better be because I am suspected of a felony.

Yup, and 9th circuit would tend to agree with you. Robinson v. Solano County and Hopkins v. Bonvicino (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2009/07/16/07-15102.pdf) (2009):

It is clearly established that the use of excessive force in effecting a seizure violates the Fourth Amendment. See Tennessee v. Garner,
471 U.S. 1, 8-9 (1985).

The law of this circuit regarding excessive force as it relates to the use by police officers of drawn firearms was established by the en banc court in Robinson v. Solano County, 278 F.3d 1007 (9th Cir. 2002) (en banc). In that case, we held that “pointing a gun to the head of an apparently unarmed suspect during an investigation can be a violation of the Fourth Amendment, especially where the individual poses no particular danger.” Id. at 1015. In Robinson, the court held that a constitutional violation had occurred where the officers pointed their guns at the plaintiff and “[t]he crime under investigation was at most a misdemeanor[,] the suspect was apparently unarmed and approaching the officers in a peaceful way[,] [t]here were no dangerous or exigent circumstances apparent at the time of the detention, and the officers outnumbered the plaintiff.” Id. at 1014.

ETA: Of course OP wasn't unarmed, but you get what I mean... ;)

Cokebottle
01-29-2010, 4:54 PM
But when he asks me to unload it and I comply then he starts to scream because I am not holding it bye 2 fingers and then pulls it...well that is bad training
And if it's anything but a revolver, how are you supposed to clear the chamber with 2 fingers?

medicgunslinger
01-29-2010, 5:08 PM
either way you stack it- just remember... when dealing with an official contact with law enforcement- good, bad, or indiffernet... innocent or guilty... black, white, or smurf blue..... the smartest thing you can do is comply, and follow GYSGT Hartman's advice: "THE FIRST AND LAST WORDS OUT OF YOUR FILTHY SEWERS WILL BE SIR!"

and on the other side of it... however some officers fail to remember... the biggest insurance policy of officer safety, and customer service is to do exactly the same thing... respect for everyone you meet. when i approached a transient this week, sleeping on a bus stop bench, with open containers of alcohol beside him... i absolutely addressed him as "sir." not to say that i didnt approach tactically, with officer safety in mind... but my demeanor set the tone for the entire encounter.

the point is, when you are dealing with contacting people in posession of weapons- on either side, you are potentially one false move away from death. its not an ego pissing contest. you show me that you are not threatening me, and i wont kill you. very simple. this does not reciprocate, due to the fact that the officer is in the position of authority, and is responsible for maintaining controll of the scene. if i came up on 2 armed subjects, shooting, and there was reason to believe a crime was being committed, i would break leather until i can prove to myself that its safe.

if i came up on a guy and his dad shooting recreationally, id probably say hello, shoot the breeze for a minute or two, and let them enjoy their day, and their privacy. if the contact with the officer was initiated because he "knew you, and didnt like you," thats inappropriate.

there are too many variables here that havent answered... but off hand, im just giving you the advice to best insure your ability to come home after a day of shooting, so you can spend time with your daughter - preferably still breathing, with a pulse.

there is no room for ego, or insubordination when dealing with law enforcement in an official capacity- and never resist arrest, or attemt to disarm the officer... regardless of good guy or bad guy, we will always win any physical altercation we get in to.

curtisfong
01-29-2010, 7:38 PM
there is no room for ego, or insubordination when dealing with law enforcement in an official capacity

Oh. Right. There is certainly no room for the Bill of Rights, either, when it comes to LEO. :popcorn:

outland
01-29-2010, 7:46 PM
+ 1

1lostinspace
01-31-2010, 2:28 PM
And if it's anything but a revolver, how are you supposed to clear the chamber with 2 fingers?

I have no idea, I told his supervisor if he told me to put the gun in the dirt I would have!

I saw him drive bye today and look at my store to see if I was in.:cool:

This guy is pushing my big red button!!

Meplat
01-31-2010, 2:37 PM
and never resist arrest, or attemt to disarm the officer... regardless of good guy or bad guy, we will always win any physical altercation we get in to.

I think this comes under the heading of really good advice rather than truth. Nothing is absolute. But don't bet your life on the 1 in 1000 chance.:)

Maestro Pistolero
01-31-2010, 2:41 PM
I saw him drive bye today and look at my store to see if I was in.
I would document that stuff, what is he looking for? What business is it of his whether you are in, or not. Is he trying to intimidate you?

Cokebottle
01-31-2010, 2:48 PM
I saw him drive bye today and look at my store to see if I was in.:cool:
I would document that stuff, what is he looking for? What business is it of his whether you are in, or not. Is he trying to intimidate you?
Ditto.

File a followup report with his supervisor that you believe he is stalking you. This guy has a serious mental problem and needs to be smacked down off of his high horse HARD.
His job is to enforce the laws within his jurisdiction. He has ZERO business conducting any kind of investigation on you. He didn't arrest you, you were not charged, there is no criminal investigation involving you. He has no business driving by your home or business. This guy is wiping his *** with the 4A and it needs to stop.

RP1911
01-31-2010, 2:53 PM
Set up a security camera that records activity outside the shop.

OleCuss
01-31-2010, 2:59 PM
. . . we will always win any physical altercation we get in to.

I like your attitude.

However, I think you may have somewhat overstated the part I quoted. I believe it is true at least 90% of the time and I hope I'm being conservative - but I'm sure you don't bet on it yourself which is why you are cautious, tactical, and polite.

The flip side is that if my estimate of 90% is correct, then it is sheer folly not to comply with an LEO's commands.

OleCuss
01-31-2010, 3:03 PM
I have no idea, I told his supervisor if he told me to put the gun in the dirt I would have!

I saw him drive bye today and look at my store to see if I was in.:cool:

This guy is pushing my big red button!!

I've not been a big fan of your pursuing action against this guy - but you're starting to win me over. I'm having trouble coming up with any way in which his trying to surveil you is proper behavior.

And I agree with your earlier statement that telling you to use two fingers and unload your pistol is logically improbable.

nobody_special
01-31-2010, 6:51 PM
The flip side is that if my estimate of 90% is correct, then it is sheer folly not to comply with an LEO's commands.

Consider the flip side, from a citizen's perspective.

If I were target shooting with my family out in the desert and an officer approached with a drawn gun pointed at us, odds are I'd comply and disarm. But I can't guarantee that a gunfight wouldn't occur... and if it did, I'd figure we'd be justified morally, and possibly legally*, if we shoot first.

As far as I'm concerned, officer safety doesn't trump my safety, or that of my family.

So, all you LEO reading this... you should think very carefully before drawing on someone if you don't have good reason to suspect them of being violent felons.

* It is lawful to resist excessive force; pointing a gun is lethal force, and it is excessive absent suspicion of a felony, as appears to be the case here.

haodoken
01-31-2010, 6:59 PM
Consider the flip side, from a citizen's perspective.

If I were target shooting with my family out in the desert and an officer approached with a drawn gun pointed at us, odds are I'd comply and disarm. But I can't guarantee that a gunfight wouldn't occur... and if it did, I'd figure we'd be justified morally, and possibly legally*, if we shoot first.

As far as I'm concerned, officer safety doesn't trump my safety, or that of my family.

So, all you LEO reading this... you should think very carefully before drawing on someone if you don't have good reason to suspect them of being violent felons.

* It is lawful to resist excessive force; pointing a gun is lethal force, and it is excessive absent suspicion of a felony, as appears to be the case here.

Gunfight at the OK Corral. You vs. LEOs. Sounds like the making of a good shootout movie. :lurk5:

nobody_special
01-31-2010, 7:00 PM
Gunfight at the OK Corral. You vs. LEOs. Sounds like the making of a good shootout movie. :lurk5:

Not particularly, but I fail to see why officer safety should be placed above the safety of the law-abiding public.

haodoken
01-31-2010, 7:08 PM
Not particularly, but I fail to see why officer safety should be placed above the safety of the law-abiding public.

I dunno, I'm just a simple joe. To me your statements advocate the shooting of LEOs if you feel threatened by them. Saying that openly is not a good thing even if you believe it to be true. But hey I ain't gonna infringe on your 1A rights so do whatever floats your boat.

OleCuss
01-31-2010, 7:12 PM
Consider the flip side, from a citizen's perspective.

If I were target shooting with my family out in the desert and an officer approached with a drawn gun pointed at us, odds are I'd comply and disarm. But I can't guarantee that a gunfight wouldn't occur... and if it did, I'd figure we'd be justified morally, and possibly legally*, if we shoot first.

As far as I'm concerned, officer safety doesn't trump my safety, or that of my family.

So, all you LEO reading this... you should think very carefully before drawing on someone if you don't have good reason to suspect them of being violent felons.

* It is lawful to resist excessive force; pointing a gun is lethal force, and it is excessive absent suspicion of a felony, as appears to be the case here.

The problem I see with this is that usually the LEO is better trained and if you're shooting at them there's a pretty good chance they'll vector other forces on you and you and your whole family are going to be in a world of hurt. If I think they're legitimate LEO I'll probably do whatever they say even if they're excessive.

Of course, LEO needs to understand that I could easily go and get a uniform and an official-looking badge, etc. Simply being in uniform doesn't necessarily convey legitimate authority.

haodoken
01-31-2010, 7:25 PM
The problem I see with this is that usually the LEO is better trained and if you're shooting at them there's a pretty good chance they'll vector other forces on you and you and your whole family are going to be in a world of hurt. If I think they're legitimate LEO I'll probably do whatever they say even if they're excessive.

Of course, LEO needs to understand that I could easily go and get a uniform and an official-looking badge, etc. Simply being in uniform doesn't necessarily convey legitimate authority.

Very true. But patches (except LAPD who dont use patches on regular patrol officers) are the biggest identifier. If you see those, I'd like to say with some certainty they may be real LEOs.

Meplat
01-31-2010, 7:30 PM
Did someone lock this thread, my posts are not showing up?

nobody_special
01-31-2010, 7:30 PM
The problem I see with this is that usually the LEO is better trained and if you're shooting at them there's a pretty good chance they'll vector other forces on you and you and your whole family are going to be in a world of hurt. If I think they're legitimate LEO I'll probably do whatever they say even if they're excessive.


Which suggests we're living in a "might makes right" world. Of course, that's the same reason I said I'd probably comply; but I imagine the particular circumstances may be important, such as...


Of course, LEO needs to understand that I could easily go and get a uniform and an official-looking badge, etc. Simply being in uniform doesn't necessarily convey legitimate authority.

...exactly this. And even if they are a genuine LEO, the behavior at issue might suggest they are not above-board. Frankly, if an officer correctly approached (absent any pointing of weapons), there's obviously no problem. But approaching with a drawn and pointed weapon is likely to trigger a "fight or flight" reflex, impairing decision-making and triggering protective instincts. Even if one has the opportunity to consider their actions (unlikely), the proper course of action is unclear when an LEO is illegally threatening you with lethal force.

nobody_special
01-31-2010, 7:34 PM
I dunno, I'm just a simple joe. To me your statements advocate the shooting of LEOs if you feel threatened by them. Saying that openly is not a good thing even if you believe it to be true. But hey I ain't gonna infringe on your 1A rights so do whatever floats your boat.

Advocate? Look again, where did I advocate shooting anyone? :mad:

Meplat
01-31-2010, 7:47 PM
If I were in the Imperial desert and a Border Patrol Bronco drove up and the driver, in a Border Patrol uniform got out and drew down on me it would be all about: "whatever you say boss." But if someone just appears out of nowhere, in some sort of suite that I don't recognize, and draws down on me, we just may have our selves a little gunfight. And for his own sake he'd better be real good. :43:


Consider the flip side, from a citizen's perspective.

If I were target shooting with my family out in the desert and an officer approached with a drawn gun pointed at us, odds are I'd comply and disarm. But I can't guarantee that a gunfight wouldn't occur... and if it did, I'd figure we'd be justified morally, and possibly legally*, if we shoot first.

As far as I'm concerned, officer safety doesn't trump my safety, or that of my family.

So, all you LEO reading this... you should think very carefully before drawing on someone if you don't have good reason to suspect them of being violent felons.

* It is lawful to resist excessive force; pointing a gun is lethal force, and it is excessive absent suspicion of a felony, as appears to be the case here.

Meplat
01-31-2010, 7:51 PM
The problem I see with this is that usually the LEO is better trained

:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

Cokebottle
01-31-2010, 8:00 PM
:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:
I was thinking the same thing.

Someone who goes to the range once every 6 or 12 months to qualify against someone who spends their free time shooting?

nobody_special
01-31-2010, 8:03 PM
I was thinking the same thing.

Someone who goes to the range once every 6 or 12 months to qualify against someone who spends their free time shooting?

The point isn't who has the better training, or who would "win" the fight. Nobody would win the fight, so the point is to prevent it from happening in the first place. That is best done when the LEO follow the law and respect the rights of citizens... which is not what happened according to the description in the OP.

Meplat
01-31-2010, 8:05 PM
Sorry, but most LEOs can't hit a bull in the *** with a base fiddle.;)I was thinking the same thing.

Someone who goes to the range once every 6 or 12 months to qualify against someone who spends their free time shooting?

Cokebottle
01-31-2010, 8:12 PM
Sorry, but most LEOs can't hit a bull in the *** with a base fiddle.;)
Ya... I always wonder about training requirements when I hear on the news "Police fired 43 rounds, suspect was treated at the hospital and released 3 hours later"

Ed_Hazard
01-31-2010, 9:02 PM
Send guns, money, and lawyers and know when to use which.:thumbsup:

haodoken
01-31-2010, 9:54 PM
Advocate? Look again, where did I advocate shooting anyone? :mad:

"If I were target shooting with my family out in the desert and an officer approached with a drawn gun pointed at us, odds are I'd comply and disarm. But I can't guarantee that a gunfight wouldn't occur... and if it did, I'd figure we'd be justified morally, and possibly legally*, if we shoot first. "

Maybe I'm reading it wrong? "...we shoot first." :eek:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you meant..."If officer shot at me first, I'd return fire to protect myself/family." or something like that.

Cokebottle
01-31-2010, 10:08 PM
"If I were target shooting with my family out in the desert and an officer approached with a drawn gun pointed at us, odds are I'd comply and disarm. But I can't guarantee that a gunfight wouldn't occur... and if it did, I'd figure we'd be justified morally, and possibly legally*, if we shoot first. "

Maybe I'm reading it wrong? "...we shoot first." :eek:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you meant..."If officer shot at me first, I'd return fire to protect myself/family." or something like that.
Put yourself in that position.
A uniformed man walks over the crest of a hill (you haven't seen any aircraft or vehicles), flashes a badge, and demands that you unload your weapons while he is holding you at gunpoint.

He then proceeds to load your weapons into your vehicle and drive off into the sunset.

Cops aren't the only people with guns and uniforms. Shoulder patches may not be identifiable until it is too late... and even they are not sacred.
News report a couple of days ago about a big gang bust in Riverside.
Items confiscated included Riverside County SD uniforms and badges.


I'm with nobody_special... ANYONE that doesn't get out of a police vehicle with exempt plates aims a gun at me, he is going to be ventilated.

And no, it likely will not turn out well for me, but it will turn out better than me being dead or having to live with watching my family or friends murdered.

nobody_special
01-31-2010, 10:33 PM
Just because something can be justified (morally or legally) doesn't make it an idea I'd advocate.

OleCuss
02-01-2010, 2:38 AM
:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:

OK, OK, you have a point!

But I know a few LEO's that are just insanely good with a pistol. Actually, come to think of it, all of the LEO's with whom I am friends are damned good.

Cokebottle
02-01-2010, 10:01 AM
OK, OK, you have a point!

But I know a few LEO's that are just insanely good with a pistol. Actually, come to think of it, all of the LEO's with whom I am friends are damned good.
Birds of a feather. ;)

People on this forum are going to trend toward hanging around with proficient shooters.

dantodd
02-01-2010, 12:01 PM
Birds of a feather. ;)

People on this forum are going to trend toward hanging around with proficient shooters.

I should start hanging out more with other members. My proficiency is in question. My safety and fun factor are not.

Cokebottle
02-01-2010, 12:32 PM
I should start hanging out more with other members. My proficiency is in question. My safety and fun factor are not.
Or we can head over to the bar and have some proficient shooters there :D

Meplat
02-01-2010, 1:04 PM
I expect most of our LEOs on here are damn good. But I could tell you stories......:eek:

OK, OK, you have a point!

But I know a few LEO's that are just insanely good with a pistol. Actually, come to think of it, all of the LEO's with whom I am friends are damned good.

dantodd
02-01-2010, 1:12 PM
Or we can head over to the bar and have some proficient shooters there :D

Proficient and delicious shooters. Though usually I'm more of a bourbon and branch sipper.

tenpercentfirearms
02-01-2010, 4:56 PM
Woah, this thread has taken a turn for the worse. I love the keyboard commandos that are going to shoot an officer that points a gun at them. Talk is cheap. Prove it.

I am willing to bet you are going to comply and you won't just blast some officer.

You won't catch me making stupid threats like that because I like to be a man of my word. Now if you ever post a story about how a cop pointed his gun at you while you were out shooting, someone will remember your threats and we will question why you didn't "ventilate" them like you said you would. I would rather not paint myself into such a corner.

Which would lead to a whole 73 posts on how people don't even believe it happened without pictures!

Seriously some people crack me up.

nobody_special
02-01-2010, 6:36 PM
And I just love people who exaggerate and twist another's posts to suggest they said something they did not. :nono:

If I'm not engaged in criminal enterprise and am otherwise minding my own business, I think it's a pretty reasonable expectation that people (including -- no, especially police officers) will not be pointing guns at me. The officer violated the law by employing deadly force here. The fact that he is not being publicly excoriated here is appalling.

pitchbaby
02-01-2010, 9:56 PM
It seems to me your never gonna' get anywhere unless you can take it straight to an internal affairs officer. Everyone else is going to give you the "shut down".

chiselchst
02-02-2010, 3:32 AM
Isn't it true that a citizens complaint will stay in his file forever?

I understood this to be the case with most LEO's? Can anyone confirm or correct this? I do know they'll do almost everything to try & persuade you from filing a complaint.

Interesting situation...

tenpercentfirearms
02-02-2010, 5:39 AM
The officer violated the law by employing deadly force here. The fact that he is not being publicly excoriated here is appalling.

Who died?

Noraku81
02-02-2010, 6:22 AM
Woah, this thread has taken a turn for the worse. I love the keyboard commandos that are going to shoot an officer that points a gun at them. Talk is cheap. Prove it.
.


Unfortunately, any internet forum you go to that has guns as the main theme will have a bunch of keyboard commandos. They all fantasize about pulling the trigger but they don't realize what it comes with before and after.

IrishJoe3
02-02-2010, 8:50 AM
...and officer approached with a drawn gun pointed at us, odds are I'd comply and disarm. But I can't guarantee that a gunfight wouldn't occur... and if it did, I'd figure we'd be justified morally, and possibly legally*, if we shoot first. .

And you wonder why Cops are so paranoid....:nuts:


...pointing a gun is lethal force, and it is excessive absent suspicion of a felony, as appears to be the case here...

Nope. Rounds down range is lethal force. And where’d you get that whole felony thing from?

Cokebottle
02-02-2010, 8:54 AM
Nope. Rounds down range is lethal force. And where’d you get that whole felony thing from?
Are you saying that it would be acceptable for an officer to approach a drive being pulled over for a broken taillight, with clean registration, with your gun drawn?

The ranger approached a man with his family, while engaged in a legal activity upon public land, and drew down on them.

IrishJoe3
02-02-2010, 9:00 AM
Are you saying that it would be acceptable for an officer to approach a drive being pulled over for a broken taillight, with clean registration, with your gun drawn?.

It is all based on the situation. Normally? No. But the situation may dictate a drawn weapon approach, for example say its 0200, high crime area, vehicle was slow to yield, driver rooting around under the seat, driver ignoring commands to show his hands, etc. Stop may be for nothing more than the tail light, and there is no indiciation of the "Felony", but you'd better believe that the subject is getting drawn down on.

The ranger approached a man with his family, while engaged in a legal activity upon public land, and drew down on them.

There are three sides to every story.....His, Hers and the truth. The OP's post is just His side. I'll reserve judgement till I hear all sides.

Cokebottle
02-02-2010, 9:13 AM
but you'd better believe that the subject is getting drawn down on.
As I said before... while I wouldn't appreciate it (which doesn't matter anyways), a "low ready" wouldn't bother me that much.
I've been in a few traffic stops where the holster was unclipped and the right hand on the gun, but still holstered. Didn't bother me at all... he's covering his a**, and I can understand that.

You don't aim the muzzle of a loaded gun at another human being unless you are within milliseconds of taking their life unless the situation changes very quickly.

IrishJoe3
02-02-2010, 9:28 AM
As I said before... while I wouldn't appreciate it (which doesn't matter anyways), a "low ready" wouldn't bother me that much.
I've been in a few traffic stops where the holster was unclipped and the right hand on the gun, but still holstered. Didn't bother me at all... he's covering his a**, and I can understand that.

You don't aim the muzzle of a loaded gun at another human being unless you are within milliseconds of taking their life unless the situation changes very quickly.

Maybe, maybe not. Traffic stops/encounters are very fluid and the dynamics change very quickly. Sometimes a low ready is all that is needed. Sometimes not. Its very difficult (and unwise) to impose a cut and dried, black and white response to a situation, ("fidgeting subject=un-snapped weapon, reaching under seat=low ready, visible weapon=aimed weapon" etc) simply because there are a million factors that are part of the equation. One situation may warrant X response, while a nearly identical but slightly different situation may require Y response. In all honesty, in the original case of this thread, the weapon may have been at a low ready for all we know. Which is why without being there or getting all sides of the story, it is fool hardy to pass judgment. But then it'd be hard to have these cop bashing sessions, which I understand is a staple of the 2A threads.

nobody_special
02-02-2010, 11:36 AM
Who died?

Doesn't matter. Or are you going to just shrug it off if someone points a loaded gun at you? Does the right to self-defense only exist once you've already been killed? :confused::nuts:


Nope. Rounds down range is lethal force. And where’d you get that whole felony thing from?

Incorrect; simply Google "is pointing a gun deadly force" and you'll see links to several court cases which say that pointing a gun at someone qualifies as deadly force. None of the cases on the first page are from CA, but in any case my terminology is close enough, because pointing a gun at someone without provocation is generally sufficient cause for them to justifiably shoot in self-defense.

My use of "felony" was incorrect, but there certainly needs to be RS for detainment and reason to believe the subjects are dangerous. (Obviously they are armed.)

In all honesty, in the original case of this thread, the weapon may have been at a low ready for all we know. Which is why without being there or getting all sides of the story, it is fool hardy to pass judgment.

He said it was at low ready until they had cleared and dropped their weapons; then it was pointed at them. And really, the "don't pass judgment until you hear all sides of the story" is a cop-out when applied here (no pun intended). We're discussing a specific scenario; comments are obviously contingent upon taking the OP at face value. If you can't do that, what's the point of posting anywhere on the internet?

IrishJoe3
02-02-2010, 11:51 AM
My use of "felony" was incorrect, but there certainly needs to be RS for detainment and reason to believe the subjects are dangerous. (Obviously they are armed.)

And I concur, however I add two points:
1)the RS may or may not be apparent to the individual being detained, and the LEO may or may not inform the individual of the RS. Lack of knowledge of the R/S does not automatically mean that there was no RS, which is the conclusion that many jump to.


2) (Obviously they are armed.) do not assume that by armed it automatically equals a firearm. “armed” can be a baseball bat, knife, screwdriver, AT4 Rocket launcher, basically anything that that can inflict great bodily harm or inury. And the “weapon” doesn’t have to be visible. (Example, subject won’t take hand out of pocket and I can see a lump in his pocket; I don’t have to wait till he’s putting rounds down range at me to draw).

IrishJoe3
02-02-2010, 12:23 PM
He said it was at low ready until they had cleared and dropped their weapons; then it was pointed at them. And really, the "don't pass judgment until you hear all sides of the story" is a cop-out when applied here (no pun intended). We're discussing a specific scenario; comments are obviously contingent upon taking the OP at face value.
Whoops, missed one of your comments:
Cop out, huh? So…..when your cranky neighbor who hates your guts files a bogus complaint against you simply because they don’t like you, it’d be a cop out if the officers do anything less than arresting you immediately without getting your side of the story? Since of course this example isn’t a “cop out”, what is the difference between the two?
Every one of us is guilty of "artistic license" concerning our stories. Is that the case regarding the original poster? I dunno, and neither do you.

If you can't do that, what's the point of posting anywhere on the internet?

Shoot, I don’t take anything I’m told or read at face value, and it doesn’t prevent me from posting on the internet

Oh, to take everything you read on the internet as gospel truth is, well, foolish.

nobody_special
02-02-2010, 12:25 PM
And I concur, however I add two points:
1)the RS may or may not be apparent to the individual being detained, and the LEO may or may not inform the individual of the RS. Lack of knowledge of the R/S does not automatically mean that there was no RS, which is the conclusion that many jump to.

2) do not assume that by armed it automatically equals a firearm. [...]

If an officer is approaching people who are target shooting, if RS exists, it would be wise for the officer to calmly communicate it with the subjects, rather than come in shouting with a pointed gun. The former approach is likely to lead to a good outcome, whereas the latter is risky for all involved, even when the subjects are reasonably law-abiding citizens. (I say "reasonably" because these days, I doubt that anyone can completely avoid violating some law or regulation at some point.)

IrishJoe3
02-02-2010, 12:31 PM
If an officer is approaching people who are target shooting, if RS exists, it would be wise for the officer to calmly communicate it with the subjects, rather than come in shouting with a pointed gun. The former approach is likely to lead to a good outcome, whereas the latter is risky for all involved, even when the subjects are reasonably law-abiding citizens. (I say "reasonably" because these days, I doubt that anyone can completely avoid violating some law or regulation at some point.)

And I say again, since none of us know any relevent details to this incident, how can we say what is or what isn't the proper place to "come out shouting with a point gun" (if that indeed happen).

:shrug:

nobody_special
02-02-2010, 12:33 PM
Whoops, missed one of your comments:
Cop out, huh? So…..when your cranky neighbor who hates your guts files a bogus complaint against you simply because they don’t like you, it’d be a cop out if the officers do anything less than arresting you immediately without getting your side of the story? Since of course this example isn’t a “cop out”, what is the difference between the two?

Big difference. In your example, you're directly involved and can gather more information. And you have the opportunity to affect things.

Whereas I'm abstractly discussing a scenario. I have no way of obtaining details beyond those provided, so I must take them at face value. And this is merely discussion, I have no direct influence upon the events or people involved. My opinion may change if further information is uncovered of course, but there's no reason to forestall discussion.


Every one of us is guilty of "artistic license" concerning our stories. Is that the case regarding the original poster? I dunno, and neither do you.


I disagree with your "artistic license" comment; facts are facts. Is the OP providing us with full disclosure? I have no way of knowing certainly, but that doesn't preclude discussion of the events as described.


Oh, to take everything you read on the internet as gospel truth is, well, foolish.


Shoot, I don’t take anything I’m told or read at face value, and it doesn’t prevent me from posting on the internet

There's a difference between taking something at face value, and taking it as gospel.

nobody_special
02-02-2010, 12:39 PM
And I say again, since none of us know any relevent details to this incident, how can we say what is or what isn't the proper place to "come out shouting with a point gun" (if that indeed happen).

:shrug:

We certainly know a few relevant details. In particular: no arrest was made, which leads me to believe that no crime was being committed by the OP. In light of that, I find it very difficult to believe that there was sufficient cause for the officer's behavior.

Cokebottle
02-02-2010, 12:43 PM
We certainly know a few relevant details. In particular: no arrest was made, which leads me to believe that no crime was being committed by the OP. In light of that, I find it very difficult to believe that there was sufficient cause for the officer's behavior.
Added to that the fact that this "ranger" pulled a driveby on the OP's business Sunday.

No arrest, no grounds for investigation.
This ranger is a cowboy.

DTOM CA!
02-02-2010, 1:07 PM
You would be surprised what would be accomplished with you and 10 of your friends picketing with signs at the Ranger station with a call to the media outlets on a slow news day. Get your baby in front of the cameras saying I don't want them to shoot my Daddy. Public opinion could work in your favor.

1lostinspace
02-03-2010, 10:03 AM
You would be surprised what would be accomplished with you and 10 of your friends picketing with signs at the Ranger station with a call to the media outlets on a slow news day. Get your baby in front of the cameras saying I don't want them to shoot my Daddy. Public opinion could work in your favor.

wow man that would be nuts. Funny thing is I see him all the time now!
On the back of his truck he has a sticker that says 101 Airborn. I wonder where he got it because when he tried to take the mag out of my AK he was lost!!!:eek:
Then he called my father in laws Mini 14 a Socom!!! I almost thought of letting the whole thing go thinking he has served my country but then very quickly remember him disarming me and then pulling his gun out! threatening me while holding my son and so forth, all the patriotic fellings went out the window!
I serve my country paying my taxes we all do, it does not give us the right to pull guns on who ever we please.

Mosby
02-03-2010, 10:34 AM
1lostinspace,

Don't feel too bad, we have a new LEO up here in the Six Rivers National Forest who is really, really gung-ho and a bit over the top sometimes. He actually gave someone a ticket for picking/taking river cobble without a permit. I have yet to hear of him issuing a warning regarding any infraction, just ticket hungry I guess.

While I do not condone your USFS LEO's behavior, it maybe something they teach them at their academy regarding the national forest in CA being overrun with Mexican Mafia and crank labs which freaks them out.

You probably already know this but USFS LEOs are not supervised by the local District Ranger but have a totally different chain of command and control. You may have to contact the Regional Office out of Vallejo to find his actual supervisor and where to file the complaint. If you give it to the District Ranger it may just get round-filed. I've met some good USFS LEOS but they have been on the job awhile and tempered the zeal of a newly minted LEO.

Good Luck....

Bhobbs
02-03-2010, 1:07 PM
I think the OP's point is that this has now happened multiple times while they were doing nothing wrong or suspicious. Should we all have to worry every time we go to the range that a LEO will draw on us? A family shooting on public land and complying with an officer during the day is nowhere near the same as a traffic stop in a high crime area with an uncompliant driver at night. Making that comparison you might as well say all shooters are possible criminals and we all need to be treated as such.