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blackbox
01-14-2010, 7:28 AM
Got a question about the new style magazine blocks from MagazineBlocks.com (http://magazineblocks.com), where its a one-piece block + baseplate:


http://www.zladner.com/magblocks/images/MCL10-20Pa.JPG

Why would you need to epoxy the baseplate?


§12020
(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.

In my mind, "permanently altered" refers to something like riveting through the side of a 30rd mag, instead of putting a screw in that can easily be backed out. With an integrated block/baseplate, you can't increase the capacity without either breaking it, or replacing parts, which would seem permanent enough to me.

I realize it doesn't hurt legally to epoxy it, but this seems excessive. Any of the legal eagles want to weigh-in?

yelohamr
01-14-2010, 7:36 AM
It's so it cant be removed easily and then be replaced with another baseplate to increase the capacity.

I'm not a lawyer but I've stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

glock_this
01-14-2010, 7:40 AM
which would seem permanent enough to me.

theres your error in logic.. "permanent enough to me" does not mean jack. there are pretty clear rules to follow here.

as has been said, it would be easy to undo what you propose, since it is not rivited or epoxied, and make it back into a high cap mag.. that, in and of itself, is clearly not permanent if you can undo it like that.

mala in se
01-14-2010, 7:56 AM
I have the older version of the blocks and I thought it was a bit excessive, but I went ahead and epoxied the blocks just so I did everything in my power to conform to the written law.

I assume if they question the legality of my mags, I would be covered. I think it's just the smart thing to do, and let' be real here, I don't see 10 round capacity laws changing anytime soon.

glock_this
01-14-2010, 8:00 AM
"I think it's just the smart thing to do"

bingo.. unless you want to risk some serious criminal charges... not worth if for a $15-20 item. Convert them, convert them permanent, convert them legally.

The laws are not going to change any time soon so 10 is what it is. If you move out of CA, sell your permanent mags right here, people will buy them, go spend the money on legal ones for your state.

Unit74
01-14-2010, 8:35 AM
I think you guys are paranoid.....



If an LEO happens to check the mags and it doesn't take more than ten rounds, there is no violation.

The fact that you could replace parts to make it hold more in no way can be construed to be a violation. You would have to " Alter" as the law says, the mag to make it hold more. You have actually done the inverse by altering it to take less ammo. Do you think that any DA getting this case would even waste his time on it? If the mag holds ten or less, there is no crime. Period.


This whole "sky is falling" paranoia cracks me up.

himurax13
01-14-2010, 8:42 AM
So are these magazine blocks legal to use?

bombadillo
01-14-2010, 8:46 AM
As legal as any other block method is. I'd say that its a better method than most.

glock_this
01-14-2010, 8:47 AM
I think you guys are paranoid.....

If an LEO happens to check the mags and it doesn't take more than ten rounds, there is no violation.

The fact that you could replace parts to make it hold more in no way can be construed to be a violation. You would have to " Alter" as the law says, the mag to make it hold more. You have actually done the inverse by altering it to take less ammo. Do you think that any DA getting this case would even waste his time on it? If the mag holds ten or less, there is no crime. Period.

This whole "sky is falling" paranoia cracks me up.

I would agree a DA is not likely going to pursue. And I agree it is not likely going to be an issue for most people BUT, IIRC, they have to be "permanent" and being able to alter it back is simply not permanent. Period. This has been debated and covered here many times, I suggest you go read some of those threads.

As I said, it will likely not be an issue for most people, but it is a pretty hefty penalty if you do.. is that worth a $15-20 mag? Or worth getting your AR confiscated until you work it out?

So are these magazine blocks legal to use?

well sure, nothing legal or illegal about them. the blocks are just chunks of plastic waiting for you to use them.

Merle
01-14-2010, 9:24 AM
I think you guys are paranoid.....

If an LEO happens to check the mags and it doesn't take more than ten rounds, there is no violation.

The fact that you could replace parts to make it hold more in no way can be construed to be a violation. You would have to " Alter" as the law says, the mag to make it hold more. You have actually done the inverse by altering it to take less ammo. Do you think that any DA getting this case would even waste his time on it? If the mag holds ten or less, there is no crime. Period.

This whole "sky is falling" paranoia cracks me up.

I agree on this one. If the magazine can NOT accept more than 10 rounds, it doesn't matter if it's permanent or temporary. Change the wording of the law to include (Z)


§12020
(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(Z) A feeding device attached to a duck


As long as you meet the (25) portion, it shouldn't matter if you meet (A) or (Z).

We know the DA and police can take apart and reassemble our guns in any configuration, and the same logic should apply to having a monster stock or a bullet button. If they have to change the inner workings of your weapon and magazines to get a conviction, it's tampering with evidence.

glock_this
01-14-2010, 9:28 AM
I think your woefully wrong...

Unit74
01-14-2010, 9:32 AM
And who exactly defines permanent? A bunch of internet gun jockeys? Me thinks not.....

I'm well aware of all the other threads out there, but alas, this is another one. Which leads me to digress to another subject...


EVERTHING has already been discussed in "other threads." So why do the interweb keyboard slingers always belch out something about "go search" or post a roll eyes ever time someone who HASN'T been here for years asks a very simple question? Who cares? If they wanted to search for it, they would. But the wheels of EVERY board run on new posts. It's how the owners can provide horsepower to potential advertisers about hits per day, members and new posts.

So either post a link with more relevant information or answer the questions asked. I'm sure the folks paying the bills would appreciate it.... seriously.

I would agree a DA is not likely going to pursue. And I agree it is not likely going to be an issue for most people BUT, IIRC, they have to be "permanent" and being able to alter it back is simply not permanent. Period. This has been debated and covered here many times, I suggest you go read some of those threads.

As I said, it will likely not be an issue for most people, but it is a pretty hefty penalty if you do.. is that worth a $15-20 mag? Or worth getting your AR confiscated until you work it out?



well sure, nothing legal or illegal about them. the blocks are just chunks of plastic waiting for you to use them.

glock_this
01-14-2010, 9:47 AM
slow your roll man

the question was answered, more questions raised, answers were not accepted, the reasons "search" was recommended was so that the OP could go look and read what people have already spent time writing, documenting, why rehash it all. It is cool to banter it back and fourth a bit, but after a point of endless regurgitated opinions, it is easier to go read what has all been said before - so use the Search, that is why it is here - rather than making - as you admit - yet another thread on the topic.

As well, said other existing topics might have specifics references, more knowledgeable pundits and legal quotes or documents we don't have in this one that end this debate. Why do it all again and now that we have reached that point, it is easier to go do the research people have spent the time writing about already than doing the whole dance again.

smarter and more knowledgeable people on the laws define "permanent"

BTW, your point about new posts.. not everyone agrees.. there are been many conversations about the fact that the same questions come up over and over and how to limit that from happening since people have addressed it all. You will still get answers, but in a way it is your laziness to not use the search or read a Sticky and just post it up again. Some people want others to d their research and not do it themselves. As well, each new post and thread is more and more database space, server time & load, etc.. so it is not as beneficial as you make it out to be to just add and add and add new posts and threads and topics.

MasterYong
01-14-2010, 10:11 AM
The way the blocks are a permanent part of the baseplate (unless a tool like a saw is used to remove them) then you would have to replace the baseplate to return the mag to full capacity.

Similar to the way the 10/50 PS90/P90/AR57 mags work. There's a baseplate that's REALLY tall so that the mag can't accept more than 10 rounds. In order to make the mag full-cap you'd have to either cut off a good chunk of the baseplate or you'd have to get a new baseplate altogether. I ordered one from a vendor here and he'd epoxied the baseplate on (which was just silly because it was not only unnecessary but the baseplate came off with just a little pressure from my fingers, it didn't hold at all). The one that I ordered from an out-of-state dealer wasn't epoxied. It didn't need to be. You'd have to replace a whole part to make it high cap.

IANAL

Fate
01-14-2010, 10:47 AM
So either post a link with more relevant information or answer the questions asked. I'm sure the folks paying the bills would appreciate it.... seriously.

This thread actually did a good job of examining several issues being discussed. Permanence being one of them.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=139687

MasterYong
01-14-2010, 11:11 AM
...they have to be "permanent" and being able to alter it back is simply not permanent. Period.

How do you feel about having to literally swap out a part to make the mag full-cap? Seems like this is how most of the 10/30, etc conversions are done, at least in the commercially available mags I've seen.

I may be reading your posts wrong, but it sounds like, based on your own assertions of what is and is not "permanent", that nothing in this entire world could ever be truly "permanent". If you're saying that, if a 10/30 needed a tool (like a saw) to return the mag to 30/30 status, that said 10/30 mag is NOT "permanently" a 10/30... then how could any 10-round mag be "permanent"?

My Browning Buckmark 10-round mags (from factory) could easily hold maybe 12 rounds if I shortened the follower. Wouldn't do it, but it could certainly be done. Same with my 10-round XD mags I think. Are those not permanent either?

Not trying to flame, just looking for clarification.

mej16489
01-14-2010, 11:26 AM
I remember with the Fed ban on manufacture of hicaps that most manufacturers shortened the mag body and put on a long floorplate.

However during the ban, Beretta manufactured their 10round 96 mags by simply putting a stop on the plastic follower. That wouldn't have required hardly any effort to defeat, but noone ever accused them of manufacuring 'easily converted' mags; which if I remember correctly was required of manufacturers.

GearHead
01-14-2010, 11:30 AM
Nothing is permanent. You can rivet your mags, glue them, jinx them, etc, but ANYTHING you do short of physically cutting the bodies to make "stubby" mags is ultimately reversible.

Saym14
01-14-2010, 11:30 AM
I think you guys are paranoid.....



If an LEO happens to check the mags and it doesn't take more than ten rounds, there is no violation.

The fact that you could replace parts to make it hold more in no way can be construed to be a violation. You would have to " Alter" as the law says, the mag to make it hold more. You have actually done the inverse by altering it to take less ammo. Do you think that any DA getting this case would even waste his time on it? If the mag holds ten or less, there is no crime. Period.


This whole "sky is falling" paranoia cracks me up.

I agree - look up the definition of Permamant. it does not mean it can never ever be removed without destoying the product. it means long lasting and enduring. A screw is long lasting and enduring as long as you dont remove it.

Saym14
01-14-2010, 11:37 AM
Nothing is permanent. You can rivet your mags, glue them, jinx them, etc, but ANYTHING you do short of physically cutting the bodies to make "stubby" mags is ultimately reversible.

I agree:


Main Entry: 1per·ma·nent
Pronunciation: \-nənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French parmanant, from Latin permanent-, permanens, present participle of permanēre to endure, from per- throughout + manēre to remain — more at per-, mansion
Date: 15th century
: continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change : stable

synonyms see lasting
— per·ma·nent·ly adverb

— per·ma·nent·ness noun

MasterYong
01-14-2010, 12:04 PM
I agree:


Main Entry: 1per·ma·nent
Pronunciation: \-nənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French parmanant, from Latin permanent-, permanens, present participle of permanēre to endure, from per- throughout + manēre to remain — more at per-, mansion
Date: 15th century
: continuing or enduring without fundamental or marked change : stable

synonyms see lasting
— per·ma·nent·ly adverb

— per·ma·nent·ness noun

Assuming that the dictionary and/or textbook definition of a word will fall in line with the legal definition of a word is not the kind of approach you want to use when attempting to operate within the confines of law, CA law especially.

Fate
01-14-2010, 12:32 PM
Assuming that the dictionary and/or textbook definition of a word will fall in line with the legal definition of a word is not the kind of approach you want to use when attempting to operate within the confines of law, CA law especially.

+1!

Extremely dangerous to think that a dictionary has any relevance within the CA Penal Code. Those that haven't read the thread I linked above really should do so before arguing the definition of "permanence" issue further.

bigcalidave
01-14-2010, 1:17 PM
I'm in the "if you have to replace or break a part to make it function, it is permanent" crowd. And until someone is prosecuted for it and appeals, NOBODY knows the exact legal definition of "permanent"

G17GUY
01-14-2010, 2:08 PM
Then everyone that uses 10 round mags needs to epoxy them and put a rivet in them also. I can take the base plate off of a 10 round mag and make 11 rounds fit.

It can be argued that they need to be as permanent as a standard factory 10 round magazine.

glock_this
01-14-2010, 3:12 PM
I'm in the "if you have to replace or break a part to make it function, it is permanent" crowd. And until someone is prosecuted for it and appeals, NOBODY knows the exact legal definition of "permanent"

for MasterYong, this is where I tend to stand on it

I 100% agree that nothing is fully, 100% permanent. About anything can be undone if desired. But if you can throw a 10 round block into a mag and close the base plate BUT then in a matter of secs, with no tools or damaging or replacing parts to reopen it, open said mag and take out the block and reassemble and be back to a high capacity, I would not call that mod or block "permanent".

However, for example, you did epoxy or rivet it and thus, had to take a hammer or saw or drill to it to crack it open and then put a new base plate and such on it, I would call that "permanent". Yes it can be undone. Of course. but, not without some tools and or replacing or damaging parts.

That is how I see this whole definition of "permanent" and what I believe the intention here is.

glock_this
01-14-2010, 3:16 PM
Then everyone that uses 10 round mags needs to epoxy them and put a rivet in them also. I can take the base plate off of a 10 round mag and make 11 rounds fit.

I would say yes.. or, 1 or the other. Not both epoxy and rivet as 1 seems fine as an effort to make it permanent. and all of mine are as that is how I always understood it, read it, and seemed logical. Just being able to open it 1 minute and put in a block in and then 1 minute later taking the block out and then do it all over again is certainly not "permanent" it logically seems to me.

It can be argued that they need to be as permanent as a standard factory 10 round magazine.

Interesting point.. think of like the Bushmaster or regular metal mags.. they are sealed shut and the only real way in is to bend metal. BUT a pmag has a removable plate and you can be in in seconds... so which "standard factory 10 round magazine" would be the gold standard?

G17GUY
01-14-2010, 3:46 PM
I would say yes.. or, 1 or the other. Not both epoxy and rivet as 1 seems fine as an effort to make it permanent. and all of mine are as that is how I always understood it, read it, and seemed logical. Just being able to open it 1 minute and put in a block in and then 1 minute later taking the block out and then do it all over again is certainly not "permanent" it logically seems to me.


It is permanently altered in its assembled state.

himurax13
01-14-2010, 3:50 PM
for MasterYong, this is where I tend to stand on it

I 100% agree that nothing is fully, 100% permanent. About anything can be undone if desired. But if you can throw a 10 round block into a mag and close the base plate BUT then in a matter of secs, with no tools or damaging or replacing parts to reopen it, open said mag and take out the block and reassemble and be back to a high capacity, I would not call that mod or block "permanent".

However, for example, you did epoxy or rivet it and thus, had to take a hammer or saw or drill to it to crack it open and then put a new base plate and such on it, I would call that "permanent". Yes it can be undone. Of course. but, not without some tools and or replacing or damaging parts.

That is how I see this whole definition of "permanent" and what I believe the intention here is.

Wouldn't you need a "tool" to open the Magpul Base Plate in the first place?

Ron-Solo
01-14-2010, 3:50 PM
I'm a LEO and if it only held 10 rounds, that's where I'd be done with that issue.

But, I don't use 10/20 or 10/30 rounds on my off list rifles. I use straight 10 rounders, just to avoid any confusion. My 20 & 30 rounders are for out of state.

My hicaps (or 'standard' capacity mags) are only for my featureless guns.

You never know what kind of response you're going to get out there because the admin pogues in SAC don't have the testicular fortitude to make a decision on anything, one way or another. I'm a street cop, I look for BAD GUYS.

Jerkdog
01-14-2010, 5:21 PM
I'm a street cop, I look for BAD GUYS.

this ^ ^

we need more guys like

Seesm
01-14-2010, 5:33 PM
I know more than a few of us have high caps... (legally owned pre ban of course)

But I think it is funny they say it has to be permanent but you can own legal (apart) rebuilds or for use out of the state with no constructive possession... (Having not owned std capacity mags prior to 12-31-99)

So if it is ok APART or ok TOGETHER with a block that limits it to 10 rds WHO CARES? Ahhh that is right some law maker in CA. does...

Did that make sense to you all? I know it did in my head but maybe not here after I typed it all. :)

Meplat
01-14-2010, 7:18 PM
To those smart asses who always insist on saying: "use the search function."

Have you ever tried to use the 'search function' on this site?:rolleyes:

fevillago
01-14-2010, 7:27 PM
does anybody have the contact info for this place:
http://magazineblocks.com/

this one keeps failing to receive: info@zladner.com

http://www.zladner.com/magblocks/images/MCL10-20Pa.JPG

Vinz
01-14-2010, 7:53 PM
This has been debated for so many years.

i agree, a stock 10 rounder can be disassembled and bend a tang to hold 12 rounds.

to be safe I build them to what I feel the word permanent means. Unreversable within resonable means.
I play on the side of caution. Remember the same guys that will put this to the test are the same guys that will pull out a 4ft breaker bar to test to see if your permanently attatched flash hider on your 14.5" barrel is infact permanent.

I'd love to push the issue but I don't have 10 grand to spend on lawyer fees and I like having the ability to own my guns.
To me its not worth the trouble.
Vinz

Saym14
01-14-2010, 8:12 PM
Assuming that the dictionary and/or textbook definition of a word will fall in line with the legal definition of a word is not the kind of approach you want to use when attempting to operate within the confines of law, CA law especially.

well if permanant is NOT defined in the penal code then where else would a reasonable person turn ? the dictionary? the common english meaning of the word?

DedEye
01-14-2010, 8:19 PM
To those smart asses who always insist on saying: "use the search function."

Have you ever tried to use the 'search function' on this site?:rolleyes:

That's why I just link people to the FAQ. If they ask a question that has already been asked within the last week and is sometimes STILL ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE FORUM THEY'RE POSTING ON, then I let them know how much I hate them. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ)

Purple K
01-14-2010, 8:45 PM
Let's look at the newest version of mag block for the Pmag from magazineblocks.com. You must disassemble the magazine and REMOVE one OEM part. Then that OEM part is replaced with the new part and the magazine is reassembled to hold ten rounds. This is just as permanent at many of my 10-rd OEM pistol magazines that are NOT glued. Just pop the floorplate off of a few of your California neutered pistol magazines and see how permanent they are.

Fate
01-14-2010, 8:59 PM
That's why I just link people to the FAQ. If they ask a question that has already been asked within the last week and is sometimes STILL ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE FORUM THEY'RE POSTING ON, then I let them know how much I hate them. (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ)

You know, that Wiki might be useful if you had relevant Penal Code noted at each question. As it is now, it "could just be" someone's opinion. Gotta have documented backup.

"But officer, the CalGuns Wiki page says the answer is 'No' to that question."

DedEye
01-14-2010, 9:02 PM
You know, that Wiki might be useful if you had relevant Penal Code noted at each question. As it is now, it "could just be" someone's opinion. Gotta have documented backup.

"But officer, the CalGuns Wiki page says the answer is 'No' to that question."

Very true. As mentioned multiple times, the wiki is a work in progress. One of the things I plan to do tonight or this weekend is start citing the references for the answers.

Feel free to help if you have time. I can explain everything via PM.

blackbox
01-14-2010, 9:20 PM
Wow, posted this morning and now there's 4 pages of responses...

theres your error in logic.. "permanent enough to me" does not mean jack. there are pretty clear rules to follow here.
I know that my opinion (and yours) is meaningless as far as the law is concerned. Thats why I asked for an expert to weigh in. And there are absolutely not "pretty clear rules to follow", LOL.

EVERTHING has already been discussed in "other threads." So why do the interweb keyboard slingers always belch out something about "go search" or post a roll eyes ever time someone who HASN'T been here for years asks a very simple question?
FWIW, I have been here for years, and I'm asking a different question, about a product that didn't freaking exist several months ago. Sorry if that part flew over anybody's head.

This thread actually did a good job of examining several issues being discussed. Permanence being one of them.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=139687
Haven't read all 10 pages of that yet, but a removable block that is inserted and NOT part of the baseplate seems fundamentally different.

Unless someone can present evidence otherwise, I'm going to work with the definition that using one of the new magblocks creates a 10 round magazine. Replacing the floorplate with a different piece that does not include a block would be "manufacturing a highcap magazine" at that point.

Sure would be nice if the DOJ would give some guidance that didn't start with "47 different DA's..."

(note that this is theoretical - I don't actually have any of these yet).

Fate
01-14-2010, 10:29 PM
Haven't read all 10 pages of that yet, but a removable block that is inserted and NOT part of the baseplate seems fundamentally different.

The discussion of permanence being tossed about here is in there. Yes the block is different, but the permanence discussion is the relevant part.

Saym14
01-14-2010, 11:10 PM
true - where in the PC is permanant defined? if not defined it must fall back to the common dictionary definition.

lets see: Permanant residency is a legal term. does that mean you can NEVER move out of state again? NO - you could become a permanant resident and move out in a year if you wish.

Zachs300zx
01-14-2010, 11:30 PM
does anybody have the contact info for this place:
http://magazineblocks.com/

this one keeps failing to receive: info@zladner.com

You can PM me here. I'm not sure why that address is not forwarding to me.

well if permanant is NOT defined in the penal code then where else would a reasonable person turn ? the dictionary? the common english meaning of the word?That's a good question. Is there a magical legal dictionary that the CA courts use?

Well a lot of good discussion here on this topic. I designed these because I didn't want to use epoxy on the baseplate and wanted to retain the ability to clean my mags. Now I do send info with every block sold that buyers must make the modification permanent and using epoxy on the baseplate is one method. But, that's not what I do for my personal magazines.
-I just epoxy the spring to the bottom of the replacement block and I'm done!
Any thought on this technique?

scoob_i_e
01-15-2010, 7:26 AM
I agree with that sentiment.... Who cares anyway if a given question is asked again and again.


YOU WOULD THINK THAT PEOPLE WOULD JUST BE GLAD THAT SOMEONE IS INTERESTED IN STAYING LEGAL.








EVERTHING has already been discussed in "other threads." So why do the interweb keyboard slingers always belch out something about "go search" or post a roll eyes ever time someone who HASN'T been here for years asks a very simple question? Who cares? If they wanted to search for it, they would. But the wheels of EVERY board run on new posts. It's how the owners can provide horsepower to potential advertisers about hits per day, members and new posts.

So either post a link with more relevant information or answer the questions asked. I'm sure the folks paying the bills would appreciate it.... seriously.

Rob454
01-15-2010, 7:38 AM
Anything that is converted at home IMO can be unconverted at home also.
The only way you are gonna have a 10 round mag is to make a mag that cannot accept anything more than 10 rounds. Like a factory SKS with the attachable mag.

Fate
01-15-2010, 8:14 AM
Anything that is converted at home IMO can be unconverted at home also.
The only way you are gonna have a 10 round mag is to make a mag that cannot accept anything more than 10 rounds. Like a factory SKS with the attachable mag.
Lucky for us then that the CA DOJ has approved multiple commercial designs of 10 round mags that "could," if illegally modified, hold more than 10 rounds. Otherwise the only legal mag bodies would be 10 rounds tall.

Been said time and time again that if your restriction method is the same as one approved by the CA DOJ for commercial sale in CA, you're good to go.

glock_this
01-15-2010, 9:10 AM
man, we should have added a pole to this thread to just get some true percentage #'s of members feelings irrespective of comments or who did not want to comment

some think just putting in a block (or rod) with no rivet/epoxy floor plate is G2G

some think a block (or rod) plus an epoxy or rivet choice for floor plate is the G2G method

people fall on both sides, no consensus - never will be it seems unless some official pronouncement comes down

IIRC, when the whole 10/20 10/30 mag conversion started, many of us were so tenuous about creating an issue as - like the first unknowns with the BB or the first pinned lowers in 2005ish - the epoxy/rivet floor plate concept seemed to be the norm to be safe/legal.. now, maybe not so much??

glock_this
01-16-2010, 1:24 PM
on this note

has anyone ever epoxied/JB welded their pmags closed, but then later tried to crack them open. say by taping on the center floor plate button with a rubber hammer to break it free and open it again? any success?

Saym14
01-16-2010, 11:41 PM
as far as legal definitions. I think there is a term for permanant resident of a state or the country. but does that mean you can NEVER leave? NO!

everything is reversible.

Rob454
01-17-2010, 8:23 AM
Lucky for us then that the CA DOJ has approved multiple commercial designs of 10 round mags that "could," if illegally modified, hold more than 10 rounds. Otherwise the only legal mag bodies would be 10 rounds tall.

Been said time and time again that if your restriction method is the same as one approved by the CA DOJ for commercial sale in CA, you're good to go.

I get what you are saying. All I meant to say is pretty much any mag that was converted from a 30 round mag can be unconverted if you have the tools
I personally dont care if someone has a 30 round mag attached to a rifle.