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Hunt
01-13-2010, 5:20 PM
Will 2A incorporation allow us to end the discrimination against backpack hunters transporting firearms in their backpack through State Parks?

bulgron
01-13-2010, 6:05 PM
Will 2A incorporation allow us to end the discrimination against backpack hunters transporting firearms in their backpack through State Parks?

Maybe not. I believe this is going to shake out that gun laws related to personal self-defense will be subject to strict scrutiny, while gun laws related to other firearm activities (like hunting) will be subject to a lesser scrutiny -- although what that scrutiny might be is anyone's guess.

With anything less that strict scrutiny, I'm guessing gun laws related to firearm transportation for hunting purposes will be constitutional.

The courts aren't a 100% do-it-all magic wand. Sooner or later we have to to win in the court of public opinion, so that we can apply true leverage to the politicians in Sacramento. Many feel that if urbanites have a reason to own and use guns due to concealed carry laws, then they'll be more likely to get angry when gun laws affecting other firearms usages are implemented. I tend to agree with that assessment.

wildhawker
01-13-2010, 6:49 PM
I believe bulgron is largely correct (see, e.g., US v. Skoien (http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/UB1AJWPW.pdf)).

However, if one were to possess a carry permit...

Hunt
01-13-2010, 7:07 PM
...Many feel that if urbanites have a reason to own and use guns due to concealed carry laws, then they'll be more likely to get angry when gun laws affecting other firearms usages are implemented. I tend to agree with that assessment.

the disparity in scrutiny you mention makes sense, bringing the urbanites into the camp is a very good idea, lot of work for us to do. Fries my butt the way they discriminate against backpack hunters in the State Parks here.
Oh well better to fight the issues than whine about it.

bulgron
01-13-2010, 7:10 PM
I believe bulgron is largely correct (see, e.g., US v. Skoien (http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/UB1AJWPW.pdf)).

However, if one were to possess a carry permit...

But if the carry permit lists the guns you're qualified to carry by type and serial number, and your deer hunting rifle isn't on that carry permit ....

yellowfin
01-13-2010, 7:34 PM
I wonder if listing a finite number of pistols on a license would pass strict scrutiny; my guess would be no, but of course that's the answer I want too. NYS has it where every pistol you own is on your license, and you can only possess those specific ones. That can't be kosher, can it? That's not only arbitrary rationing of a right, but it's excessively invasive. Is there much to strike a law on a Constitutional basis in that it's purposefully and maliciously complicated, designed with the pure intent to have as many pitfalls as possible?

gunn
01-14-2010, 12:01 PM
I wonder if listing a finite number of pistols on a license would pass strict scrutiny; my guess would be no, but of course that's the answer I want too. NYS has it where every pistol you own is on your license, and you can only possess those specific ones. That can't be kosher, can it? That's not only arbitrary rationing of a right, but it's excessively invasive. Is there much to strike a law on a Constitutional basis in that it's purposefully and maliciously complicated, designed with the pure intent to have as many pitfalls as possible?

Not all states are the same:
I believe in Texas, the last time I checked with my mom, there was no requirement to list the guns on your CCW permit.
-g

troysland
01-14-2010, 12:17 PM
My Utah CCW doesn't require the listing of specific Guns one can Conceal Carry, either.

Peaceful John
01-14-2010, 12:57 PM
I wonder if limiting the right to self defense to only those tools listed on a CCW might violate "strict scrutiny"? Might even the requirement of CCW's -- subjecting a Right to bureaucratic restrictions -- fail strict scrutiny?

On another front, isn't the 2nd A largely silent about the kinds of arms covered? If that's true, then wouldn't --at a minimum -- knives and hatchets be covered by a favorable McDonald?

pullnshoot25
01-14-2010, 1:00 PM
I am incredulous at the amount of bull**** that we as citizens have to wade through before we even step out of the door...

CAL.BAR
01-14-2010, 1:04 PM
the degree of scrutiny may not be all that relevant as "public safety" is always the highest concern of any court or lawmaker and "public safety" is always the argument "they" make for banning whatever it is they want to ban.

2A says nothing (doesn't even infer) about carrying outside your house. I think this is the area that we have the LEAST amount of traction irrespective of incorporation or 2A rights.

bulgron
01-14-2010, 1:17 PM
the degree of scrutiny may not be all that relevant as "public safety" is always the highest concern of any court or lawmaker and "public safety" is always the argument "they" make for banning whatever it is they want to ban.

2A says nothing (doesn't even infer) about carrying outside your house. I think this is the area that we have the LEAST amount of traction irrespective of incorporation or 2A rights.

2A doesn't say anything (doesn't even infer) about carrying inside your home, but Heller came to that conclusion easily enough.

I'm pretty sure we'll be able to extend carry rights outside of the home, all assuming the court retains at least a vestige of intellectual honesty.

wildhawker
01-14-2010, 1:31 PM
But if the carry permit lists the guns you're qualified to carry by type and serial number, and your deer hunting rifle isn't on that carry permit ....

Post-incorporation and after having established the right to "bear", what precludes carry of a long arm (read: not "handgun") for self-defense?

wildhawker
01-14-2010, 1:35 PM
the degree of scrutiny may not be all that relevant as "public safety" is always the highest concern of any court or lawmaker and "public safety" is always the argument "they" make for banning whatever it is they want to ban.

2A says nothing (doesn't even infer) about carrying outside your house. I think this is the area that we have the LEAST amount of traction irrespective of incorporation or 2A rights.

Read Skoien. Scrutiny determines much. *At minimum* we likely get intermediate, and possibly a split such as strict for self-defense and intermediate for hunting/non-defense arguments.

dantodd
01-14-2010, 1:35 PM
Post-incorporation and after having established the right to "bear", what precludes carry of a long arm (read: not "handgun") for self-defense?

outlawing OC like Texas does would really make it hard to do so.

wildhawker
01-14-2010, 1:40 PM
outlawing OC like Texas does would really make it hard to do so.

As you know, CA has [for now] some unique statutory attributes that make it very much unlike Texas <prays that UOC doesn't change this before Incorporation>.

dantodd
01-14-2010, 2:01 PM
As you know, CA has [for now] some unique statutory attributes that make it very much unlike Texas <prays that UOC doesn't change this before Incorporation>.

Exactly! My concern is that incorporation will not deter the legislature from making the same changes. It may or may not be more defensible post-incorporation but incorporation will not make a whit of difference in trying to win legislatively. The only significant change post-incorporation is that we MAY get a governor willing to veto an such a bill. The anti-gun roots run so deep in the legislature though that a veto override it possible and I doubt that Brown would risk such a thing in his first year in office.

(You do know I only bust your balls because I like and respect you right?)

wildhawker
01-14-2010, 2:11 PM
Exactly! My concern is that incorporation will not deter the legislature from making the same changes. It may or may not be more defensible post-incorporation but incorporation will not make a whit of difference in trying to win legislatively. The only significant change post-incorporation is that we MAY get a governor willing to veto an such a bill. The anti-gun roots run so deep in the legislature though that a veto override it possible and I doubt that Brown would risk such a thing in his first year in office.

(You do know I only bust your balls because I like and respect you right?)

Indeed, it would be nice to have some time to leverage the new legal conditions created by an applied 2A. I'm a bit more optimistic in that a) California is broke and b) we have a shot at wedging the door open with some occasional support from a pro-civil rights governor. I don't think the legislature could override a veto once we have some compelling reasons not to (we do have some pro-2A Dem friends).

I'd tell you that I enjoy the ball-busting but that would make it a little too close to marriage for me. However, I will admit that I do enjoy the spirited debate you bring to the forums (and offline). :p

ETA: love the new sig, Dan. :D

dantodd
01-14-2010, 2:42 PM
ETA: love the new sig, Dan. :D

Thanks.

Kharn
01-14-2010, 5:12 PM
outlawing OC like Texas does would really make it hard to do so.Texas only outlaws the open carrying of a handgun, openly carrying a rifle or shotgun is perfectly acceptable behavior. ;)

nick
01-14-2010, 6:22 PM
the degree of scrutiny may not be all that relevant as "public safety" is always the highest concern of any court or lawmaker and "public safety" is always the argument "they" make for banning whatever it is they want to ban.

2A says nothing (doesn't even infer) about carrying outside your house. I think this is the area that we have the LEAST amount of traction irrespective of incorporation or 2A rights.

Here I thought that courts are supposed to concern themselves with laws and interpreting them, not with the concerns of the executive branch. Separation of powers and all those "technicalities". But then, that hasn't been the case for a while.

wildhawker
01-14-2010, 6:31 PM
Texas only outlaws the open carrying of a handgun, openly carrying a rifle or shotgun is perfectly acceptable behavior. ;)

An important distinction considering LOC of handguns in urban CA is, indeed, dead as of 1/1/10 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=259400).