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View Full Version : Orange County Training Bulletin On "Assault Weapons" and "Bullet Buttons"


JasonDavis
01-12-2010, 1:59 PM
All,

At the request of the CalGuns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF), I have obtained a copy of the new Orange County Sheriff's Department ("OCSD") Training Bulletin (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf) on the issue of California's Assault Weapon Laws as applied to firearms modified with "bullet buttons." This Training Bulleten comes in the wake of CGF's successful recovery of a firearm seized by the OCSD, which mistakenly believed the "bullet button" modified firearm to be an "assault weapon" under California law.

The bulletin states that: "Once a bullet button is installed and there is an attached magazine capable of holding only 10 rounds, the firearm no longer has a “detachable magazine” as required for a Category 3 type assault weapon as per Penal Code Section 12276.1(a)(1)."

While not entirely correct, the acceptance of bullet button modified firearms as legal marks a move in the right direction for the OCSD. We will be contacting the OCSD in an attempt to resolve any inaccuracies presented by the Training Bulletin.

In issuing this Training Bulletin, Orange County Sheriff's Department joins City of Sacramento Police Department (which issued a similar Training Bulletin on November 18, 2008 (http://hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf)) in taking the lead on clarifying the bullet button issue statewide.

UPDATE:

I just received an e-mail from the Orange County Sheriff's Department that included two additonal pages from the bulletin that were inadvertently not included when I personally picked up the Training Bulletin. The additional two pages detail more of the "assault weapon" laws. And, in a hat tip to Calguns.net, they state the following:

The "California Centerfire, Semi-Auto Rifle Identification Flowchart" is an easy to follow flowchart listing yes/no questions showing the characteristics and related penal code sections of assault weapons and .50 BMG rifles. The second page of the flowchart lists all of the banned assault rifles by make and model (Class I and II) and lists the characteristics (Class III) of assault weapons. This is a resource only, much like a "quick code" and not to be used for official citation. Click on the following link:
http://.www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf
The complete Training Bulletin can be found here (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf).

Vtec44
01-12-2010, 2:06 PM
Wow, thank you CGF and Mr Davis! :D

Dark Paladin
01-12-2010, 2:07 PM
Good to hear. Thanks for the efforts of you and everyone else involved.

Jicko
01-12-2010, 2:08 PM
First of all..... congrat!!! On the effort and this result....

Yet, a semi-auto, centerfired rifle (AR15-style), with evil features, with an OPEN mag well, and with a Bullet-Button installed...... SHOULD *also* NOT be an Assault Weapon... but this bulletin didn't address that; but instead... it said.... "BB *AND* 10rounder"

This is a little worry-some...

Finish it
01-12-2010, 2:10 PM
That sounds good!

JasonDavis
01-12-2010, 2:14 PM
Yes, there are some inaccuracies/omissions in their Training Bulletin, which we plan on addressing with the OCSD.

Vtec44
01-12-2010, 2:15 PM
This is a little worry-some...

Yes but at least we're heading toward the right direction. :)

I'm so happy that OCSD created this document, even with a little push from CGF and Mr Davis. We now have 2 training documents from 2 departments that we can use as a reference to push other SD's to do the same.

1BigPea
01-12-2010, 2:18 PM
This is great, thanks!

chris
01-12-2010, 2:45 PM
good to hear that LE is being trained in this area. as they are to enforce the law they should know it.

bwiese
01-12-2010, 2:49 PM
Forward!

With 220+ K new black rifles in California, they're starting to catch on.

Calgunners have driven and/or participated in at least A QUARTER OF A BILLION dollars in new CA firearms commerce due to OLL rifles and accessories and ammo.

1BigPea
01-12-2010, 2:49 PM
UPDATE:

I just received an e-mail from the Orange County Sheriff's Department that included two additonal pages from the bulletin that were inadvertently not included when I personally picked up the Training Bulletin. The additional two pages detail more of the "assault weapon" laws. And, in a hat tip to Calguns.net, they state the following:

The "California Centerfire, Semi-Auto Rifle Identification Flowchart" is an easy to follow flowchart listing yes/no questions showing the characteristics and related penal code sections of assault weapons and .50 BMG rifles. The second page of the flowchart lists all of the banned assault rifles by make and model (Class I and II) and lists the characteristics (Class III) of assault weapons. This is a resource only, much like a "quick code" and not to be used for official citation. Click on the following link:
http://.www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf
The complete Traiining Bulletin can be found here (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BzwWfP0S2fdVYzM3ZjQ5NmUtZTRkZS00MTM3L WE3MjUtNWUzNjJhZmVhMmNi&hl=en).

Thanks.

Hopefully we'll hear from them soon regarding having/not having a magazine in the magazine well.

GP3
01-12-2010, 2:52 PM
Great Job, CGF!

K5Cruiser
01-12-2010, 2:55 PM
Very nice, thank you for posting this info!

glock_this
01-12-2010, 3:00 PM
prime example of why we need that Documents section.. to archive docs like this

97F1504RAD
01-12-2010, 3:04 PM
Great Job and Thanks

aplinker
01-12-2010, 3:06 PM
Great work to all involved.

woodey
01-12-2010, 3:24 PM
Nice job, going in the right direction :D

Maltese Falcon
01-12-2010, 3:29 PM
Calgunners have driven and/or participated in at least A QUARTER OF A BILLION dollars in new CA firearms commerce due to OLL rifles and accessories and ammo.

I can certainly attest to that..since I stumbled onto Calguns in Feb 09...my interest in the 2nd Amendment and Shooting Sports has been reinvigorated....with literally thousands of dollars exiting my bank account.:eek:

Thank you Mr. Davis and CGF!!

.

Roadrunner
01-12-2010, 3:35 PM
This definitely forces them to think before they react.

SteveH
01-12-2010, 5:20 PM
Do they believe the Deputy will be able to access the CGN flowchart in the field? Why not just reproduce the flowchart in its entirity so they can carry it with them.

I'm also concerned about the language instructing them to no longer book questionable guns into safekeeping and instead book them into evidence.

The thing about loading the mag has me wondering too...do the deputies carry 11 dummy rounds in every likely caliber to verify such things? Unlikely.

B Strong
01-12-2010, 5:20 PM
Great job Jason, and a great job by the Calguns foundation.

FastFinger
01-12-2010, 5:27 PM
Excellent work by all involved. Making a noticeable difference in our state and our lives - serious, positive differences.

thedrickel
01-12-2010, 6:20 PM
Do they believe the Deputy will be able to access the CGN flowchart in the field? Why not just reproduce the flowchart in its entirity so they can carry it with them.

I'm also concerned about the language instructing them to no longer book questionable guns into safekeeping and instead book them into evidence.

The thing about loading the mag has me wondering too...do the deputies carry 11 dummy rounds in every likely caliber to verify such things? Unlikely.


They can use something handy, like a pen or pencil, to push the follower down and estimate whether it goes past where it would need to, to only hold 10rd.

Lagduf
01-12-2010, 6:23 PM
]

I'm so happy that OCSD created this document, even with a little push from CGF and Mr Davis. We now have 2 training documents from 2 departments that we can use as a reference to push other SD's to do the same.

That was my first thought as well. I shall be printing this out to keep with my OLL rifle along with the other material I keep with it.

Sniper3142
01-12-2010, 6:29 PM
WELL DONE CGF!!!

:)

Hopi
01-12-2010, 6:30 PM
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss175/progressinacan/SlowClap.gif

obeygiant
01-12-2010, 6:51 PM
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6370/aniclapping.gif

Outstanding work!

Suvorov
01-12-2010, 7:17 PM
Great News!
Great Work!!

Now let's **** can the whole unconstitutional law all together!!! :thumbsup:

xLusi0n
01-12-2010, 7:44 PM
Is that database they are running your gun through just a CA DOJ database? I thought rifles weren't "registered" ...only handguns...so why would the training bulletin say to check EVERY firearm?

McCrown
01-12-2010, 7:49 PM
This is a great step forward. I did notice that nowhere did it say that there was no problem if the rifle came back as not registered when the serial # was ran. It sounds like they assume that all firearms are registered.

Dump1567
01-12-2010, 7:51 PM
Now that they have a link to the AW flowchart, is it possible to update the flowchart to include some of the other mag lock designs and gripless builds (ie: solar tactical kydex)?

If LEO in the field is going to use this, it would be great for them to have pictures of these "other legal designs" for reference (and to possibly keep people out of jail or confiscation).;)

69Mach1
01-12-2010, 7:58 PM
Outstanding work. Thank you very much.

hoffmang
01-12-2010, 8:06 PM
Now that they have a link to the AW flowchart, is it possible to update the flowchart to include some of the other mag lock designs and gripless builds (ie: solar tactical kydex)?

If LEO in the field is going to use this, it would be great for them to have pictures of these "other legal designs" for reference (and to possibly keep people out of jail or confiscation).;)

Featureless builds have never caused an arrest other than an attempt by CA DOJ to get the U-15 ruled illegal that failed by arresting John Contos.

-Gene

haodoken
01-12-2010, 8:12 PM
Is that database they are running your gun through just a CA DOJ database? I thought rifles weren't "registered" ...only handguns...so why would the training bulletin say to check EVERY firearm?

To see if reported stolen through AFS.

Dump1567
01-12-2010, 8:24 PM
Featureless builds have never caused an arrest other than an attempt by CA DOJ to get the U-15 ruled illegal that failed by arresting John Contos.

-Gene

Good to here. I'm extremely fond of the solar tactical kydex grip.;)

How about printing 2000 color and lamenated AW flowcharts compliments of CGF. These could be sent over to OCSD for deputies to use in the field as a quick code.

They could also be dropped-off at the Sheriffs' Academy for recruits. And other O.C. Agencies with the explaination "this is what OCSD uses".

Just some thoughts.

pennys dad
01-12-2010, 8:32 PM
Wow! This is a big win! Well done.

DougJ
01-12-2010, 9:31 PM
Nice job gentlemen, these little steps in the right direction all add up.

THANK YOU CALGUNS!

p.s.
The post about featureless builds being essentially problem free is encouraging, I'm ever so close to jumping in! I NEED to put all these standard capacity magazines to some use...

secretasianman
01-12-2010, 10:33 PM
To see if reported stolen through AFS.

Will all recently purchased rifles show up in AFS?

hoffmang
01-12-2010, 10:36 PM
Will all recently purchased rifles show up in AFS?

AFS checks show three and only three things:

1. Handgun registration information.
2. AW registration information.
3. Any stolen firearm.

-Gene

NiteQwill
01-12-2010, 10:36 PM
Will all recently purchased rifles show up in AFS?

No. AFS will only show stolen/reported loss/etc. guns.

stan
01-12-2010, 11:04 PM
and to think, when i got my stag seized i was just P.O.'d, never knew it would have such a great result!

Jason Davis, Attorney and Badarse at Law!

artherd
01-12-2010, 11:08 PM
AFS checks show three and only three things:

1. Handgun registration information.
2. AW registration information.
3. Any stolen firearm.

-Gene

It is my understanding that Voluntarily Registered long-guns will show in AFS as well.

hoffmang
01-12-2010, 11:09 PM
It is my understanding that Voluntarily Registered long-guns will show in AFS as well.

Quite correct!

-Gene

Colt-45
01-12-2010, 11:52 PM
Yes but at least we're heading toward the right direction. :)

I'm so happy that OCSD created this document, even with a little push from CGF and Mr Davis. We now have 2 training documents from 2 departments that we can use as a reference to push other SD's to do the same.

That could be Sacramento and OC am I correct?

hoffmang
01-13-2010, 12:06 AM
That could be Sacramento and OC am I correct?
Correct.

Sacramento (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Sacramento-PD-OLL_Training_Bulletin-2008-11-18.pdf)
Orange County (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf)

-Gene

secretasianman
01-13-2010, 5:44 AM
AFS checks show three and only three things:

1. Handgun registration information.
2. AW registration information.
3. Any stolen firearm.

-Gene

Thanks. It still worries me that some officers believe a firearm is illegally owned just because it does not come up on AFS checks from some of the stories I've read.

BroncoBob
01-13-2010, 7:07 AM
Great news, just don't care for the statement:

"Once a bullet button is installed and there is an attached magazine capable of holding only 10 rounds, the firearm no longer has a "detachable magazine" as required for a Category 3 type assault weapon as per penal Code Section 12276.1(a)(1)...."

But like everyone has said, it's a start and CGF can work on getting the language corrected like what is stated on the Sacramento PD Training Bulletin

"Once a bullet button device is installed the firearm no longer has a “detachable magazine” as required in Penal Code Section 12276.1(a)(1) and as defined in the California Code of Regulations."

Soldier415
01-13-2010, 7:25 AM
This is excellent news. That flowchart truly is one of the greatest resources around. We keep a laminated copy (dropped off to us by a calguns member) on the counter at the shop and use it to educate both citizens and LEOs that frequent our store.

Anchors
06-14-2010, 6:50 PM
Took me a while to search this on here again.
This should be stickied or hosted on the website along with the Sacramento PD bulletin.

SAN compnerd
06-14-2010, 7:30 PM
This is great news and a bit amazing that we recovered some rights here in Ca which amost never happens once rights are seized by govt.

Maybe one day soon I can take my AR BB build to the range without fear of an ugly legal entanglement resulting from a simple traffic stop.

winnre
06-14-2010, 10:01 PM
So, having no mags means you do not need a bullet button?

bwiese
06-14-2010, 10:08 PM
So, having no mags means you do not need a bullet button?

No, please read the flowchart.

Having no BulletButton likely means you have a regular illegal unregistered assault weapon if it's a semiauto centerfire rifle with a pistol grip etc.

Having a BulletButton [but *not* a loose Prince50] means you could have no mag, however.

sseric75
06-15-2010, 9:13 PM
I'm liking this