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calnurse
01-10-2010, 9:53 PM
I know it is an uphill battle for gun rights in this state of ours. Does anyone think we have a chance to become a "free state" and win our rights back? It just pisses me off to have out of state owners say get out of California due to gun issues. I don't plan on leaving my home state but it would feel better if we could get rid of the morons in Sacramento! How do you guys and gals feel?

GammaRei
01-10-2010, 9:58 PM
Same. Why should we turn tail and run. I say stand and defend.

-G

CCWFacts
01-10-2010, 10:03 PM
I feel we should stay and fight, of course.

I also feel that we will win through the courts. Cases will change the laws. Even more importantly, as Gene says, court cases tend to have a feedback effect on the public perception, and that will spur slower, but more profound, changes.

GammaRei
01-10-2010, 10:08 PM
I feel we should stay and fight, of course.

I also feel that we will win through the courts. Cases will change the laws. Even more importantly, as Gene says, court cases tend to have a feedback effect on the public perception, and that will spur slower, but more profound, changes.

Agreed, we need to keep people from doing harmful things to our cause. And I have one movement that I can think of but do not wish to name as of yet. . .

- G

RRangel
01-10-2010, 10:10 PM
Stick around for awhile. Because of the McDonald v. Chicago case we're likely to get incorporation of the Second Amendment. That means we get a real Second Amendment right in California that the state can no longer argue is a privilege. Things will really start rolling after this happens, so yes California stands a good chance of becoming a free state.

High Lord Gomer
01-10-2010, 10:11 PM
As a SC resident, I applaud the efforts of those who stay and fight to change the unjust laws. In all too many instances many other states follow what CA has done, right or wrong. Doesn't happen much in SC, but I also travel to places where it does.

Requiem
01-10-2010, 10:12 PM
I hope that before I get to the point of leaving this state (plans are already in my head) that things will change and make me decide to stay. However, I believe that the majority of this state are too obsessed with their boob jobs and face lifts to care about their rights as long as they have the aforementioned things. With a people such as that, I believe our chances are slim, however that doesn't mean it can't happen.

If I do end up leaving, I will miss the great community of calguns (even though I'll probably stay on long after I physically leave)

AndrewMendez
01-10-2010, 10:18 PM
McDonald v. Chicago will be the turning point, which will then be followed by Law suit after lawsuit, til we can remove the AWB, handgun Unsafe Roster, ammo restrictions, etc. In the next few years, this once beautiful Land, will be Golden Again.

Kid Stanislaus
01-10-2010, 10:27 PM
Stick around for awhile. Because of the McDonald v. Chicago case we're likely to get incorporation of the Second Amendment. That means we get a real Second Amendment right in California that the state can no longer argue is a privilege. Things will really start rolling after this happens, so yes California stands a good chance of becoming a free state.

I see this optimism posted quite often and I'm hope'n its justified, HOWEVER, I fear that even after we get incorporation (if indeed we do) there'll be a long and drawn out legal battle in the courts as the liberal legislature throws one stumbling block after another into the path of 2A rights.

Window_Seat
01-10-2010, 10:51 PM
I agree that McDonald v. Chicago will be the big ticket item that gives us the offensive, and Nordyke will be what puts us in the lead (according to everything I've learned from coming here to CGN). That said, I don't plan to stick around after we at least win a major case here. Sorry if it seems self centered, but I have family & very close friends that gave up already (and they weren't listening to someone OOS), and I don't fair well when everyone is OOS. We have some screwed up whack jobs in Sacramento, and we need to get rid of them. One strategy to use is to convince the general public that our state legislature purposely created a mess that had to be undone by the people, and one that was particularly disastrous was blatantly unconstitutional gun control which tied up the court system when other cases of priority could have been heard.

I ultimately want this state to become one that not only has to, but wants to protect rights. That is possible.

(Edited to add) Threads like this make me more hopeful.

Erik.

Window_Seat
01-10-2010, 11:03 PM
...However, I believe that the majority of this state are too obsessed with their boob jobs and face lifts to care about their rights as long as they have the aforementioned things. ...

You can always look at it this way... The more GRs we win back, the less likely worrywart politicians might get in the way of those boobjobs!!!:p Now THAT'S FACETIOUS!!!:p

Erik.

wildhawker
01-10-2010, 11:39 PM
McDonald v. Chicago will be the turning point, which will then be followed by Law suit after lawsuit, til we can remove the AWB, handgun Unsafe Roster, ammo restrictions, etc. In the next few years, this once beautiful Land, will be Golden Again.

We don't have to wait for McDonald/2A to challenge the laws created by AB962. It will fall quite nicely outside of a 2A argument thanks to the FAAAA (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/49/14501.html) (see Rowe v. NH Motor Transport (http://www.scotuswiki.com/index.php?title=Rowe_v._NH_Motor_Transport) and opinion here (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/06-457.pdf)).

AndrewMendez
01-11-2010, 12:28 AM
We don't have to wait for McDonald/2A to challenge the laws created by AB962. It will fall quite nicely outside of a 2A argument thanks to the FAAAA (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/49/14501.html) (see Rowe v. NH Motor Transport (http://www.scotuswiki.com/index.php?title=Rowe_v._NH_Motor_Transport) and opinion here (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/06-457.pdf)).

Thats correct, thank you. I am going to start making bimonthly payments to CG!

gravedigger
01-11-2010, 1:23 AM
Liberals are like the inflatable punching clown we played with as children, and a valuable lesson can be learned by each child who receives one.

We make a fist, give it a punch and down it goes, only to rise up again as if nothing happened. We punch it harder, and down it goes, only to rise up again, mocking the attack. Another really really hard punch to the face and down it goes again spinning around this time, only to come back for more without the slightest sign of injury or fatigue.

The rabid anti-American gun grabbing liberals (and we all know who they are) are the punching clowns of gun control. They come out with "We're going to take away your guns!" POW! down go the clowns for a moment, but up they come again. "We're going to restrict your magazine capacities!" WHAM! Down go the clowns, only to rise up again a moment later. "We're going to require serialized ammunition!" BOOM! your fist goes into their faces as hard as you can, and after a moment, they pop up again with another attack on your gun rights, and it happens again ... and again ... and again.

Even as a child, it didn't take me long to learn that the only way to beat that clown was to cut its gut wide open with a large kitchen knife. "Lets see you come back from
THAT, clown!" The fight I see so many gun owners and 2nd Amendment supporters engaged in is not at all unlike engaging in fist fights with inflatable clowns. At some point, it will become clear to those who keep punching these clowns that another course of action is the only solution.

To those of you who believe that California will somehow become a shining example of 2nd amendment freedom, stay here and keep punching those clowns if you wish, for they will always rise up again and again unscathed. EVEN IF we "win" McDonald ... incorporation ... yadda yadda, California will NEVER get to the point where a person who is lawfully LOC or LCC a weapon can simply tell a cop to "Buzz off! I am perfectly within my rights!" COMMIEfornia will ALWAYS be a state where you will be harassed by emotionally driven people with the authority to force you to jump through financially burdening hoops to prove you are right. Oh, you might win. You might win EVERY TIME. But not without laying out money, time and energy, and there is nothing that will prevent the libs from forcing this upon you, since there are NO repercussions for a wrongful arrest. Case in point: Bobbarker, who was arrested on the 4th of July in Oceanside, CA. , a MARINE, legally UOC with his family. $1000.00 fine, gun confiscated, JAIL time, court dates, reports to his C.O., etc. Tell me WHAT PRICE did his arresting officer(s) or the department(s) have to pay to Mr. Barker for being WRONG? NADA.

Frankly, I have no interest in living in a state where even when the LAW says I can OC or CC, I STILL have to hire a lawyer, appear in a court, take time off of work, put up bail and surrender my weapon until some (hopefully SANE) judge finally tells the officer (YET AGAIN) that what I am doing is legal.

This state will continue to put laws on the books that f**k with gun owners, even though they know they won't win. They just don't CARE. They are perfectly content to lose a case, because they know that most people do not have the resources to fight the case in the first place, and will just surrender their weapons, or plead guilty, or whatever, out of expedience.

The libs may not be able to confiscate guns or prevent LOC or LCC, but they can still make it damned legislatively expensive to do it, and that alone will discourage all but the most financially solid individuals from taking the chance.

Now, if this cesspool of Socialism passes a law that says, "When a defendant is found to be in compliance with the law and is wrongfully detained, arrested, jailed or otherwise inconvenienced via time, money or restriction of freedoms by any person because of a wrongful gun posession or use charge, that defendant MUST be paid ten million dollars by the state, TAX FREE for the inconvenience, and the person who initiated the arrest or detainment MUST be imprisoned for ten years without possibility of parole" THEN I will consider moving back to this state. I'm not holding my breath.

Without SEVERE and very PAINFUL and EXPENSIVE repercussions for those who would attempt to restrict our 2A right, the LEFT has no reason to cease their assaults on that right.

.

HondaMasterTech
01-11-2010, 1:28 AM
California can easily give residents reasons to choose another state as their home. Some people have complained about taxes, education shortcomings, lack of safety, poor financial managment at the government level, high property prices, low property value, job losses and yes, gun rights.

The descision for many to leave California isn't solely based on the lack of gun rights in this state, though it doesn't hurt the descision.

I suppose some would say that the wonderful thing about America is that you don't have to stay aboard a sinking ship.

wellerjohn
01-11-2010, 5:47 AM
I see this optimism posted quite often and I'm hope'n its justified, HOWEVER, I fear that even after we get incorporation (if indeed we do) there'll be a long and drawn out legal battle in the courts as the liberal legislature throws one stumbling block after another into the path of 2A rights.

That is exactly what will happen :mad:

liketoshoot
01-11-2010, 6:31 AM
I will be moving, but not because of the gun laws, I mean we can still enjoy our hobbie we just don't have all the toys available.
It's the damm taxes that are driving me out!!

RRangel
01-11-2010, 7:22 AM
Dear Mr. Pessimist:

It's not realistic to believe that the situation is going to change overnight if that's what you want, though residents of California will get the next best thing. It took decades to lose our rights, therefore it's going to take time to get them back. Reading the forum it seems that some of the more vocal pessimists just showed up to the party.

Circa the first half of 2005 gun owners in California couldn't touch an off list AR15 receiver, let alone buy one. In the past there was no Heller decision or pending Mcdonald v. Chicago case either. There was no Calguns Foundation to save your bacon in time of need. Today the “not unsafe” handgun roster is also in jeopardy. So we've seen some definite changes for the good.

When was it ever a reality that you could say that in a couple of years the CA AWB might be dead? That's the case today! It will be extremely difficult for gun banners to argue with a Supreme Court decision that will likely bring incorporation of the Second Amendment. Those who aren't realizing the gradual good news have not been paying attention.

GrizzlyGuy
01-11-2010, 10:03 AM
I will be moving, but not because of the gun laws, I mean we can still enjoy our hobbie we just don't have all the toys available.
It's the damm taxes that are driving me out!!

I agree (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3605691#post3605691), it ain't about the gun laws. Yesterday, George Will identified the root cause (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/01/10/golden_no_longer_99845.html) of this state's problems. I often disagree with Will, but I think he's spot-on there.

For people that make their decisions primarily based on gun laws, consider this from an article out today (http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=516) (that was actually on another topic):

Yes, freedom-loving Americans in this generation may need to awaken to the prospect that--in order for freedom to survive--secession may, once again, be in order. One thing is for sure: any State that will not protect and defend their citizens' right to keep and bear arms cannot be counted on to do diddlysquat to maintain essential freedom. It is time for people to start deciding whether they want to live free or not--and if they do, to seriously consider relocating to states that yet have a heartbeat for liberty.

I will say it straight out: any State that will not protect your right to keep and bear arms is a tyrannical State! And if it is obvious that the freedom-loving citizens of that State are powerless to change it via the ballot box, they should leave the State to its slaves and seek a land of liberty.

Seems to be more and more reasons to make a strategic withdrawal to states that want us to come and help defend liberty (http://www.freestateproject.org/).

mydogsmonkey
01-11-2010, 10:24 AM
I might have a different opinion but I feel that as gun owners, we should encourage the younger generations to start shooting and enjoying and owning and shooting guns, as sport and for home defense. I think that most younger generations do turn out to be liberals from what I can tell during high school so if you start them off young, you can get a growing generation of young shooters who care about gun rights in this state. They can vote and create a difference. So please remember, even if those shooters next to you may seem like young irresponsible idiots, they may just be trying to have fun and learn but don't have a real figure to learn from.

PatriotnMore
01-11-2010, 10:37 AM
For many, gun rights/2A issues are second to the financial and nanny laws in this State. I find it ridiculous that the voters of this state will time, and time again vote in the incompetent leaders directing and leading this state to ruin.

I have lived here since birth, I have watched it slowly become the poorest managed state in the Union. CA used to be successful in spite of its leadership, not because of it. Now we can't even claim that.

Yet, again the ignorant and immigrants, which encompasses those who migrated from other states, to the illegal(s) coming from our southern borders, have continually allowed and voted into office the finest politicians money can buy.

Our highest populated cities are the least responsible voters concerning how are state should be managed. These areas are more concerned about single issues than the health of the state. They put Illegal immigration, gay rights, Union benefits and wages, ect.. before fiscal responsibility, and keeping politicians out of our pocket and home. Most of these voters are more than happy for the rest of the state to foot the bill, or pay the consequences for their myopic view of what is important.

Unless the mentality of those living here changes, until we elect real leadership that is Constitutional minded and committed to making and keeping this state fiscally and Constitutionally sound, this state will continue on its path of self destruction.

OHOD
01-11-2010, 10:50 AM
COMMIEfornia will ALWAYS be a state where you will be harassed by emotionally driven people with the authority to force you to jump through financially burdening hoops to prove you are right.

This state will continue to put laws on the books that f**k with gun owners, even though they know they won't win.

.

The other day, I went to the de Young museum in SF Golden Gate Park. Saw the Tutankhamun exhibit, nice but not worth the price. As I was waiting in the park and listening to people talk, I was reminded of the hypocritical, elitist and self centered behavior that permeates the area. Not all people are like this, but many are perfectly willing to destroy your rights for the common good and will go to whatever means necessary to make that happen.

Your comments are a nice dose of reality. Even if McDonald v. Chicago comes to fruition, there will be new laws placed that will further restrict our rights. I am very, very pessimistic about the future of California gun laws. I applaud those individuals who are defending our rights, but I think in the end we will be disarmed, either through legislation or commerce. I'm sure we will be allowed to have guns, but at a cost most people are unwilling to pay.

DedEye
01-11-2010, 10:59 AM
The other day, I went to the de Young museum in SF Golden Gate Park. Saw the Tutankhamun exhibit, nice but not worth the price. As I was waiting in the park and listening to people talk, I was reminded of the hypocritical, elitist and self centered behavior that permeates the area. Not all people are like this, but many are perfectly willing to destroy your rights for the common good and will go to whatever means necessary to make that happen.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png

gef
01-11-2010, 11:09 AM
You will never get rid of the morons in the legislature but we will win in the courts and there will be nothing they can do about it.

OHOD
01-11-2010, 11:13 AM
California can easily give residents reasons to choose another state as their home. Some people have complained about taxes, education shortcomings, lack of safety, poor financial managment at the government level, high property prices, low property value, job losses and yes, gun rights.

The descision for many to leave California isn't solely based on the lack of gun rights in this state, though it doesn't hurt the descision.

I suppose some would say that the wonderful thing about America is that you don't have to stay aboard a sinking ship.

Very often, I read this sort of post.
"If you don't like it, then leave it"
That's all well and good, in fact, I encourage people to leave if they don't like it, but with this caveat...

California makes up approximately 12% of the U.S. population. Fortunately, there is still a good percentage of those people willing to stay and fight, even with futile results. Imagine if you will, all those people decided to leave just like John Galt did. What would happen to California? I would predict that 12% will eventually become 100% progressive.
How long would it take for this mentality to permeate the balance of society, beginning with Massachusettes, New York, New Jersey and etc...?

As pessimistic as I am, I will not leave. Stay and fight, I say!
Battle of the Ardennes, Davy Crockett at the Alamo, General Armstrong Custer, need I say more...?

I will vote my mind and my heart, even if it is only 0.00000002720595 th of the final vote.

OHOD
01-11-2010, 11:18 AM
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sheeple.png

Good point, we are all fallible and self centered.
Baaaaaa.

vantec08
01-11-2010, 11:43 AM
No, nurse. Freedom is never free. Once lost, it usually takes another revolution.

Nodda Duma
01-11-2010, 1:26 PM
We don't have to wait for McDonald/2A to challenge the laws created by AB962. It will fall quite nicely outside of a 2A argument thanks to the FAAAA (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/49/14501.html) (see Rowe v. NH Motor Transport (http://www.scotuswiki.com/index.php?title=Rowe_v._NH_Motor_Transport) and opinion here (http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07pdf/06-457.pdf)).

If it is not waiting on McDonald, why hasn't a lawsuit been filed yet?

-Jason

wildhawker
01-11-2010, 2:26 PM
Jason, *when* is not my place to say; I can tell you that it will be *soon*.

bulgron
01-11-2010, 3:26 PM
Jason, *when* is not my place to say; I can tell you that it will be *soon*.

I was hoping that the follow-on lawsuit would be filed before we go back to the legislature and ask them to repeal AB 962. But it's beginning to look a little late for that to happen.

Rob454
01-11-2010, 3:44 PM
its easy to say Get out of california. Not everyone can simply drop everything and run off to a "free" state. There is more to california than simply freedom of firearms. i for one CANT jsut leave. i have three houses here, land and rental property and family and a great job. What am i supposed to do go sell everything at a loss to get out? Sure if you are single have a job you can get anywhere and nothing to tie you down ok I can see leaving but not everyone can leave at the drop of a hat.

calnurse
01-11-2010, 4:20 PM
its easy to say Get out of california. Not everyone can simply drop everything and run off to a "free" state. There is more to california than simply freedom of firearms. i for one CANT jsut leave. i have three houses here, land and rental property and family and a great job. What am i supposed to do go sell everything at a loss to get out? Sure if you are single have a job you can get anywhere and nothing to tie you down ok I can see leaving but not everyone can leave at the drop of a hat.

enough said!!:cool2:

Gray Peterson
01-11-2010, 9:44 PM
Liberals are like the inflatable punching clown we played with as children, and a valuable lesson can be learned by each child who receives one.



Yes, because cutting a liberal with a kitchen knife is such a great idea. :rolleyes:

You make the dangerous assertion that being anti-gun is a liberal or conservative issue. I have seen plenty of "law and order" conservative republicans who saw gun control as a method of disarming "people they don't like". Mulford Act (codified in PC12031) was passed by a Republican legislature and signed by a Republican governor who has been hailed as the "gold standard" in conservatism. You may have heard of him, his name was Ronald Reagan.

I'll also have you know it was a "liberal" who led the efforts in two states to normalize law enforcement education on the issue of OC. If Washington State, with a ragtag group of OC'ers who weren't really officially led by an organization, can normalize OC after 35 years of official oppression by law enforcement officers and fix it within 18 months, then California, with tens of thousands of dedicated Calguns activists plus CGF, could fix the issue in less time.

I won't fault you for cutting and running. If you're going to cop an attitude and take a "state must pay 10 million automatically from a bad stop" without any trial at all, then I suggest that you find a state that will do that, even a really pro-gun state.....oh wait, you can't find one.

hoffmang
01-11-2010, 11:43 PM
I was hoping that the follow-on lawsuit would be filed before we go back to the legislature and ask them to repeal AB 962. But it's beginning to look a little late for that to happen.

Just wrapping up a lose end or two.

-Gene

bulgron
01-12-2010, 12:26 AM
Just wrapping up a lose end or two.

-Gene

Nice. Good to hear.

Pig Rifle
01-12-2010, 2:18 AM
I think we can all agree with this guy....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5Mr5eCF2U

forgiven
01-12-2010, 11:50 PM
We're done. Been that way now for 20 years.

wildhawker
01-12-2010, 11:59 PM
We're done. Been that way now for 20 years.

:rolleyes:

hoffmang
01-13-2010, 12:01 AM
We're done. Been that way now for 20 years.

Yep (http://bit.ly/4u0M6g). We're (http://bit.ly/5ebd96) done (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Pena_v_Cid). Nothing (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Sykes_v._McGinness) good (http://bit.ly/7xHFgT) happens (http://dcguncase.com/) in (http://chicagoguncase.com/) California (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf).

-Gene

DedEye
01-13-2010, 1:21 AM
We're done. Been that way now for 20 years.

Then what the **** are you still doing here?

Yep (http://bit.ly/4u0M6g). We're (http://bit.ly/5ebd96) done (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Pena_v_Cid). Nothing (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Sykes_v._McGinness) good (http://bit.ly/7xHFgT) happens (http://dcguncase.com/) in (http://chicagoguncase.com/) California (http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/Orange-County-AW-Training-Bulletin-2010-01-12.pdf).

-Gene

While CGF is assisting with McDonald, Palmer, etc, neither DC nor Chicago are in California.

Not that I don't agree with your point.

hoffmang
01-13-2010, 8:26 PM
While CGF is assisting with McDonald, Palmer, etc, neither DC nor Chicago are in California.

Striking California laws in other jurisdictions is good for striking California laws. Importing the 2A via McDonald is critical for CA. Daring the 9th circuit to split with the DC Circuit over carry is good for getting to SCOTUS to bind California to respect "bear arms."

-Gene

DedEye
01-13-2010, 11:02 PM
Striking California laws in other jurisdictions is good for striking California laws. Importing the 2A via McDonald is critical for CA. Daring the 9th circuit to split with the DC Circuit over carry is good for getting to SCOTUS to bind California to respect "bear arms."

-Gene

No argument from me. I was just being pedantic ;).

Rob Roy
01-13-2010, 11:18 PM
I hope it's gonna become better, but I don't see it's gonna become a free state though.

bulgron
01-13-2010, 11:26 PM
I hope it's gonna become better, but I don't see it's gonna become a free state though.

No, it isn't going to be that, if it ever was.

If you dig into the history of this state, seems like it's been screwing with people one way or another right from the very beginning.

Anothercoilgun
01-14-2010, 10:39 PM
Has any state got its gun rights exhumed after death? If not then if any state would ever do so in the future, I doubt it that CA would be the first if ever.

I honestly believe the rope around CA does not originate from the legislators. Some one is pulling their strings. CA is an experiment on the nation. Once CA goes under the remaining states will fall like dominoes. So I doubt the true slave owners of this state will set us free after all these years of hard work they put to keep us bonded.

DedEye
01-14-2010, 10:58 PM
Has any state got its gun rights exhumed after death? If not then if any state would ever do so in the future, I doubt it that CA would be the first if ever.

I honestly believe the rope around CA does not originate from the legislators. Some one is pulling their strings. CA is an experiment on the nation. Once CA goes under the remaining states will fall like dominoes. So I doubt the true slave owners of this state will set us free after all these years of hard work they put to keep us bonded.

Who is pulling the strings? Secret Kenyan Muslim Obama? His Saudi Muslim overlords? The Illuminati? Jewish bankers?

Perhaps it's an ignorant and apathetic electorate that keeps voting for the same groups repeatedly and are surprised when nothing changes, coupled with a system that is sinking under its own weight?

The truth is out there, bro. Watch the skies.