PDA

View Full Version : .458 SOCOM Magazine


ipser
01-10-2010, 7:00 PM
Here is a question: The .458 SOCOM is designed to use AR15 223 magazines. An AR15 30rnd 223 magazine holds up to 10 .458 SOCOM rounds.

If I'm hunting/plinking with a .458 SOCOM upper/AR15 OLL with such a magazine attached would that be treated as a 10 rnd magazine?

(You could, of course, stuff 30 223 rounds into it but the upper wouldn't fire them.)

JeffM
01-10-2010, 7:11 PM
Here is a question: The .458 SOCOM is designed to use AR15 223 magazines. An AR15 30rnd 223 magazine holds up to 10 .458 SOCOM rounds.

If I'm hunting/plinking with a .458 SOCOM upper/AR15 OLL with such a magazine attached would that be treated as a 10 rnd magazine?

(You could, of course, stuff 30 223 rounds into it but the upper wouldn't fire them.)

Correct.

You can fit 12 rounds or so of 9mm in a 10rd .40 magazine, but it's still a 10rd .40 magazine.

bigcalidave
01-10-2010, 7:12 PM
Is it a 10 rd magazine ? You answered the question yourself. Check the calguns wiki for more info.

DedEye
01-10-2010, 7:13 PM
Yes (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Use).

bigcalidave
01-10-2010, 7:13 PM
Correct.

You can fit 12 rounds or so of 9mm in a 10rd .40 magazine, but it's still a 10rd .40 magazine.

That's not the issue, just similar.

As a fixed magazine build, it would hold 10 rounds of the ammo that the gun can fire. Filling it with .223 wouldn't function at all.

DedEye
01-10-2010, 7:17 PM
I'm trying to come up with a specific answer to this question for this section (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Use_of_Large_Capacity_Magazines_in_.22Bullet_B uttoned.22_firearms), and am having trouble wording it succinctly. Any suggestions?

383green
01-10-2010, 7:26 PM
I feel a sudden urge to try an experiment to see how many rounds of .22LR I can cram into one of my 10 round AR mags... :D

bigcalidave
01-10-2010, 7:27 PM
What would you like? I'd just have it say

" If you have an OLL build, configured in a "fixed magazine" using a bullet button or other means, do NOT install a magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds of the ammunition that the gun can fire as configured. With no constructive possession, a 10 round .50 beowulf magazine could be installed in a lower receiver without an upper receiver installed, even in possession of both a .223 AND .50 beowulf upper. Perfectly legal to use with the .50 upper, it can not be used with the .223 upper. "

That was shorter without the example. I don't know if specific examples are in your style.

JeffM
01-10-2010, 7:32 PM
That's not the issue, just similar.

As a fixed magazine build, it would hold 10 rounds of the ammo that the gun can fire. Filling it with .223 wouldn't function at all.

If someone is too stupid to extrapolate the answer from my statement, they have no business owning a gun.

DedEye
01-10-2010, 7:35 PM
What would you like? I'd just have it say

" If you have an OLL build, configured in a "fixed magazine" using a bullet button or other means, do NOT install a magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds of the ammunition that the gun can fire as configured. With no constructive possession, a 10 round .50 beowulf magazine could be installed in a lower receiver without an upper receiver installed, even in possession of both a .223 AND .50 beowulf upper. Perfectly legal to use with the .50 upper, it can not be used with the .223 upper. "

That was shorter without the example. I don't know if specific examples are in your style.

Examples are fine, but I'm looking more for the question than the answer. Something like:

"If I have a magazine that holds more than ten rounds of a different caliber than the caliber of the firearm I'm using it with, is there any risk of constructive possession?"

In fact, I may just use that.

thedrickel
01-10-2010, 8:15 PM
"Am I a felon if I can insert more than 10rd of ammo into a mag that wasn't designed for that particular caliber?"

383green
01-10-2010, 8:48 PM
Ok, in the name of Science, I have completed my experiment.

A Bushmaster "10 round" magazine holds 50 rounds of .22LR ammunition.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs172.snc3/19965_107129295967594_100000115728934_186463_67697 12_n.jpg

Does this make one of my 5.56mm bullet-buttoned OLL ARs into an assault weapon because it has a "50 round magazine"? No, of course not. Why would it matter how many rounds of a different caliber than the rifle's chambering will fit into the rifle's magazine?

And did I import a "50 round magazine" when I ordered this from Bushmaster? No, of course not. It was sold to me as a 10 round 5.56mm magazine, and it holds only 10 rounds of 5.56 ammunition. And for that matter, I've never used it in a weapon chambered in anything but 5.56mm.

Now, this brings up a stack of questions that I don't have an answer for: If a company manufactures nice, new 10 round .458 SOCOM magazines, and sells them as 10 round .458 SOCOM magazines, and they're marked as 10 round .458 SOCOM magazines, it seems to me that there should be no problem at all importing them into CA for use as 10 round .458 SOCOM magazines. But what if you then cram in 30 rounds of 5.56mm ammo (which will fit a bit more neatly than the 50 rounds of .22LR in my smart-aleck picture ;)) and cram the magazine into a featureless 5.56mm AR? Has any crime been committed (I don't think so)? Is this a gaping hole in the magazine importation ban? And magazines don't always have their intended ammunition caliber marked on them; could a ballsy dealer sell unmarked magazines into CA as "10 round .458 SOCOM magazines" with impunity, even if the buyers all used them in 5.56mm rifles? Would this fly, or would it buy a room in the gray-bar hotel?

ipser
01-10-2010, 8:51 PM
Examples are fine, but I'm looking more for the question than the answer. Something like:

"If I have a magazine that holds more than ten rounds of a different caliber than the caliber of the firearm I'm using it with, is there any risk of constructive possession?"


That's a good restatement of the question. Lest anyone think this is a simple question to answer, consider that it suggests the capacity of a magazine is relative to the firearm to which it is attached, or not. If not, then there is a risk irrespective of the caliber of the firearm. But if so, then what does that say about importation of magazines? ("But officer, this is a 10rnd 458 magazine, not a 30rnd 223 magazine.")

383green
01-10-2010, 9:14 PM
I would imagine that the authors of the magazine ban law had no awareness that a single magazine design could ever be used with substantially different ammunition calibers (and with different magazine capacities). I'd say that it's very difficult (if even possible) to write a law which carefully tries to outlaw one thing without also outlawing another very similar thing, without creating loopholes, gray areas, and various other unintended consequences.

Since the anti-gun crowd has been trying to nibble away at gun rights gradually away enough to cause the pro-gun crowd to effectively rally together, they have necessarily tried to pass narrowly-focused laws like the assault weapon bans, the large capacity magazine ban, etc. But the problem is, there really isn't any clear distinction between an "evil black rifle" and "grandpa's hunting rifle", or even between a "big magazine" and a "little magazine". So, they write a law which is ignorant of the fact that the exact same magazine can have different legitimate capacities depending on how it is used, or doesn't even have a clearly-definable capacity (such as disintegrating metal links). The result is a byzantine mass of bad laws, full of loop-holes and duct-tape patches.

And as we've seen with the whole OLL movement, that mass of laws has finally reached a great enough size that it's collapsing under its own weight, and it can no longer be propped up without simply outlawing all firearms... a move which the anti-gunners couldn't get away with, even in California.

I originally thought ipser's original question in this thread was kind of silly, but now I see that there's some interesting insight in it. If a 10 round .458 SOCOM magazine is perfectly legitimate to import into the state and use (and I believe it is), and there's nothing in the law which precludes using a different caliber in a magazine (I don't think there is), and using a 10 round .458 SOCOM magazine in a 5.56mm gun isn't considered to include an act of "manufacturing" (I don't think it does, but I'm less positive about the risk of this), then could the large-capacity magazine ban be effectively decapitated (at least for 5.56mm AR magazines) if there's some vendor outside CA who's willing to stamp ".458 SOCOM" onto unmarked AR magazine floorplates and then sell those magazines into CA? Or would a DA be able to make an effective case against somebody who imports a ".458 SOCOM magazine" with the express intention of using it as a 30 round 5.56mm magazine?

bigcalidave
01-10-2010, 10:33 PM
I was asking the same things weeks ago, and months ago :P

You're good to go if you order a 10 round magazine in .458 socom or .50 Beowulf. Just don't use it in a fixed magazine build. MonsterMan grip? Go for it!! The more people doing it, the less realistic the laws are.

383green
01-10-2010, 10:44 PM
You're good to go if you order a 10 round magazine in .458 socom or .50 Beowulf. Just don't use it in a fixed magazine build.

Well, don't use it in a fixed magazine build with a 5.56mm upper. To the best of my understanding, it'd be fine to use it in a fixed magazine build with a .458 SOCOM upper on top, provided you're careful to swap pieces in the right order if you use the same lower with multiple uppers in different calibers.

DedEye
01-10-2010, 11:14 PM
Well, don't use it in a fixed magazine build with a 5.56mm upper. To the best of my understanding, it'd be fine to use it in a fixed magazine build with a .458 SOCOM upper on top, provided you're careful to swap pieces in the right order if you use the same lower with multiple uppers in different calibers.

Correct.

As far as ordering Socom/Beowulf magazines if you don't own the related upper, I'd make the analogy of UOC vs. unlicensed concealed carry.

Sure, buying the Socom marked magazine / unloaded open carrying may be technically legal, but is sure to draw a hell of a lot more attention than just rebuilding or importing a standard 30 round 5.56mm magazine / loaded concealed carrying without a permit.

I'm not suggesting anyone do the latter two things.

Also, as for the original subject of this thread, I don't think it really belongs in a FAQ. It's such an absurd question I have trouble considering it "frequently asked."

bigcalidave
01-10-2010, 11:17 PM
ya ya ya sorry, it gets confusing writing all these exceptions to all these situations to make sense of nonsensical laws.

383green
01-10-2010, 11:23 PM
Also, as for the original subject of this thread, I don't think it really belongs in a FAQ. It's such an absurd question I have trouble considering it "frequently asked."

Well, if you change your mind, you can use my "50 round .22LR magazine" picture in the FAQ... :D

DedEye
01-10-2010, 11:27 PM
Well, if you change your mind, you can use my "50 round .22LR magazine" picture in the FAQ... :D

That is an awesome picture, by the way.

There is one difference that does change the absurdity level between the picture you posted and the question he asked. A .458 magazine can actually chamber and fire .223 rounds without modification with the appropriate upper.

Your .22LR abortion... not so much :D.

383green
01-10-2010, 11:30 PM
Can you guess how hard it was to cram all of those rounds in there and get them to stay? The Bushy 10 rounder doesn't let you remove the floorplate to take the pressure off the follower. Bullets everywhere, man! :rofl2:

bwiese
01-10-2010, 11:47 PM
I'll just summarize some guidance...



just about every magazine in a given caliber holding 10 rounds will hold 10+N rounds in another (usually smaller) caliber




there's no law against misapplying a magazine for another caliber; if that new caliber not of the original design holds/works with more than 10rds, so be it. As long as it's sold/advertised as a 10rd mag in the default caliber is what counts.




if you're modifying a 10rd mag in one caliber and it happily happens to hold & operate with more than 10rds in another caliber, fine --
as long as that magazine still operates properly in the original caliber andfirearm application. Always preserve "original-style" operation
at all costs.




it behooves purchasers, for grief reduction, to order clearly labelled/marked 10rd magazines and not just insist something is, say, a
458 SOCOM. Factory floorlplates marked in the "10 round caliber" help clarify.




Don't be stupid and use a 458SOCOM magazine in a BB'd 223/5.56 AR. Regardless of what the mag is marked, you've moved into
worries about the *rifle* territory (as opposed to worrying just about the mag) when a fixed mag semiauto centerfire rifle holds over
10 rounds. What the caliber actually is will be what the rifle is currently configured as (by upper).




While 458SOCOM is greate, don't bet your life on other caliber conversions. Stuffing 9mm into a 40S&W or 357Sig magazine is
great at the range, but probably you don't want that for a gunfight.

razorx
01-10-2010, 11:53 PM
wouldn't it be great if there was such a thing as 458 socom factory mags?

bwiese
01-11-2010, 12:11 AM
wouldn't it be great if there was such a thing as 458 socom factory mags?

I believe there are. Unsure of vendor. Maybe 44Mag sells them.

razorx
01-11-2010, 12:14 AM
if someone knows, let me know. kinda look for them every once in awhile.

44Mag is bereft. Hard to drop "bereft" in casual conversation so I forced it here :)

franklinarmory
01-11-2010, 8:02 AM
If I'm hunting/plinking with a .458 SOCOM upper/AR15 OLL with such a magazine attached would that be treated as a 10 rnd magazine?

Be aware that hunting with a semi-auto in California, one used to have to use a magazine of five rounds or less. However, I couldn't find the code this morning when I went to look for it, so it may have changed.

ipser
01-11-2010, 9:43 AM
Be aware that hunting with a semi-auto in California, one used to have to use a magazine of five rounds or less. However, I couldn't find the code this morning when I went to look for it, so it may have changed.

I'm thinking about 458 for boar hunting and I'm pretty sure there aren't any magazine limits for that. I'm not even sure there are mag limits for deer in CA but I know there are in other states.

If anyone knows the CA laws on magazine limits for hunting, please comment.

rjf
01-11-2010, 12:50 PM
Be aware that some C-Products and Brownell 30 rd 5.56 mags hold 11 .458 Socom rounds. Test your mag for round count before using in a fixed lower. Modify to 10 rd capacity if required.

bwiese
01-11-2010, 1:18 PM
Be aware that some C-Products and Brownell 30 rd 5.56 mags hold 11 .458 Socom rounds. Test your mag for round count before using in a fixed lower. Modify to 10 rd capacity if required.

OK. Are they marked on floorplate or body as 458SOCOM?

Purple K
01-11-2010, 2:26 PM
I used a label maker to stick a "10-rd, .450 Bushmaster" label over the existing 5.56x45 markings on my Pmag. I use the blue single stack follower from Bushmaster/Fulton to further make it obvious that the magazine is intended for use with "Thumper."

Purple K
01-11-2010, 2:29 PM
I'm thinking about 458 for boar hunting and I'm pretty sure there aren't any magazine limits for that. I'm not even sure there are mag limits for deer in CA but I know there are in other states.

If anyone knows the CA laws on magazine limits for hunting, please comment.

California only sets magazine capacity limits below 10-rds. for waterfoul.

DedEye
01-11-2010, 2:33 PM
OK. Are they marked on floorplate or body as 458SOCOM?

Irrelevant for the purposes of fixed magazine builds, but worth note for potential buying concerns.

Most important thing to take away: Don't use any magazine which holds 11 rounds of the caliber which the firearm is chambered to fire if the firearm is equipped with a bullet button (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Use_of_Large_Capacity_Magazines_in_.22Bullet_B uttoned.22_firearms).

I used a label maker to stick a "10-rd, .450 Bushmaster" label over the existing 5.56x45 markings on my Pmag. I use the blue single stack follower from Bushmaster/Fulton to further make it obvious that the magazine is intended for use with "Thumper."

How does the .458 round fit in a PMag? Isn't there a divider that runs along the length of the magazine, roughly where 5.56mm rounds would stack? How do you fit a third party follower in a PMag?

bwiese
01-11-2010, 2:41 PM
Irrelevant for the purposes of fixed magazine builds, but worth note for potential buying concerns.

That comment was to avoid issues with acquisition of hicap mags in general.

DedEye
01-11-2010, 2:44 PM
That comment was to avoid issues with acquisition of hicap mags in general.

I figured (hence my remark on purchasing), but still thought it necessary to reiterate the need for caution when using supposedly 10 round magazines and bullet buttons.

bwiese
01-11-2010, 5:32 PM
I figured (hence my remark on purchasing), but still thought it necessary to reiterate the need for caution when using supposedly 10 round magazines and bullet buttons.

Yep:
- LEGAL: 458SOCOM upper + 10rd 458SOCOM mag locked w/BulletButton
- ILLEGAL: 223 upper + 10rd 458SOCOM mag locked w/BulletButton
- LEGAL: 223 upper + 10rd 458SOCOM detachable mag + no evil features.

razorx
01-11-2010, 7:54 PM
LEGAL : 458SOCOM upper + 10rd 458 SOCOM detachable mag(single follower) + no evil features

command_liner
01-11-2010, 9:14 PM
Now if Riflegear would stock some of the 458 Socom mags, I would
stop in instead of driving by twice a day....

Purple K
01-11-2010, 10:45 PM
To DedEye: I remove the "divider" with a 3/8" wood chisel. The single stack followers are made to ride on top of the existing double stack follower. All I had to do is file off a little of the front of the single stack to clear the Pmag's taper.