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View Full Version : Judge thread possible legal loop hole?


norcal-ar
01-10-2010, 7:00 AM
Was reading a post in another section and this response got me thinking:

"I look at the California DROS system every day. It allows "handgun" and "long gun" - there is no "other". When you sell a handgun you need to provide for the barrel length and the caliber, and it must be in a single-shot configuration to be exempt from the handgun roster. It's kind of impossible to provide this information when it is just a stripped receiver, this is why dealers DROS stripped AR receivers as "long gun" because the only information you need to provide is qty sold. "

I know the judge is illegal on a few different levels being an SBR shotgun and also not being on the roster.BUT if someone where to make something to turn it into a single shot wouldnt that exempt it from the roster? which leads to the real question if its single shot does that provide anything toward it being exempt as a SBR shotgun? for example lets say"ALL shoguns holding two rounds( or if we want to play legal wording if the law says "multiple rounds") or more with barrell lenghts 18" and shorter are considered SBRs"
I wouldnt want a judge in single shot but was curious. I couldnt find anything when i searched around on legal requirements of shotguns.

Fjold
01-10-2010, 7:23 AM
For SBS consideration it doesn't matter how many rounds it holds.

norcal-ar
01-10-2010, 7:34 AM
thanks i had a feeling that might be the reason why nobody brought this up

bwiese
01-10-2010, 10:09 AM
12133PC exemptions for "single-action revolver" and "single-shot pistol" only exempt a handgun from the Roster - these exemptions do not affect any matters of AW or other status.

Even if if a gun were converted into Roster-exempt form per 12133PC, all AW laws (as well as other 12020PC prohibitions) must be observed.

SJgunguy24
01-10-2010, 10:33 AM
If the Judge was marked 45-70 only and was dropped tested then it would be legal.

leelaw
01-10-2010, 11:08 AM
If the Judge was marked 45-70 only and was dropped tested then it would be legal.

and if the cylinder was recut to prevent the loading of .410ga shotshells

slick_711
01-10-2010, 11:10 AM
It's a piece of junk anyway, and despite Taurus' admirable ad campaign, .410 out of a 2" barrel is far from an idea defensive cartridge. Get a model 60 or SP101 and forget it. ;)

Vin496
01-10-2010, 11:24 AM
It's a piece of junk anyway, and despite Taurus' admirable ad campaign, .410 out of a 2" barrel is far from an idea defensive cartridge. Get a model 60 or SP101 and forget it. ;)

+100

I'll never understand everyones obsession with this gun, they are big,ugly and do nothing well.

Wanting a Taurus Judge is like wanting a bucktooth,cross eyed, ugly girl who wont put out, just because she ignored you.

ke6guj
01-10-2010, 12:35 PM
and if the cylinder was recut to prevent the loading of .410ga shotshells

I've been told that a standard .45/70 chamber will accept .410 shotshells. Is it even possible to have a .45/70 chamber that won't accept .410 shells?

If it is true that a .45/70 chamber would accept .410 shells, the question then becomes, "is a firearm that is marked .45/70 and chambered to fire .45/70 ammo "designed or redesigned to fire fixed shotgun shells""? If so any .45/70 handgun would be considered an SBS (yes, there are a couple on the market that could be sold in CA if they aren't considered SBS), and more importantly, any 16" .45/70 carbine would be considered an SBS as well. I don't think I've ever heard of anybody getting an SBS charge for owning a .45/70 carbine, so either .410 shotshells won't work in it, or that "designed or redesigned" language helps.

SJgunguy24
01-10-2010, 12:46 PM
I've been told that a standard .45/70 chamber will accept .410 shotshells. Is it even possible to have a .45/70 chamber that won't accept .410 shells?

If it is true that a .45/70 chamber would accept .410 shells, the question then becomes, "is a firearm that is marked .45/70 and chambered to fire .45/70 ammo "designed or redesigned to fire fixed shotgun shells""? If so any .45/70 handgun would be considered an SBS (yes, there are a couple on the market that could be sold in CA if they aren't considered SBS), and more importantly, any 16" .45/70 carbine would be considered an SBS as well. I don't think I've ever heard of anybody getting an SBS charge for owning a .45/70 carbine, so either .410 shotshells won't work in it, or that "designed or redesigned" language helps.

Most of the 45-70 handguns i've seen are single action or single shot pistols and would be exempt from the list anyway. I would think it comes down to receiver markings and maybe even some marketing. The Judge is marketed as a pistol that shoots .410 shotgun shells, if it was never marketed like that i'd bet 1$ it would be for sale in California now.

lorax3
01-10-2010, 1:12 PM
I would think it comes down to receiver markings and maybe even some marketing.

I seriously doubt receiver marking or marketing is relevant. If it can chamber a .410 shell it can be considered an SBS. I am however willing to bet that the majority of Judge owners in CA are LEO's.

ke6guj
01-10-2010, 1:17 PM
Most of the 45-70 handguns i've seen are single action or single shot pistols and would be exempt from the list anyway.yup, that is my point. There are roster-exempt .45-70 handguns that anybody could purchase today, in CA. But the potential capability to fire .410 shotshells, even though no mention is made in receiver markings or marketing, has had at least one prominent Calgunner argue that they are considered SBS's in CA. My retort to that is that if that is the case, then there are potentially thousands of unconvicted felons in CAs that possess .45-70 carbines.


I would think it comes down to receiver markings and maybe even some marketing. The Judge is marketed as a pistol that shoots .410 shotgun shells, if it was never marketed like that i'd bet 1$ it would be for sale in California now.I'd probably agree with that. However, the fact that the judge has to have a specific chamber cut in order to chamber .410 shells, even if it was marked ".45LC only", would probably trigger SBS status, since it would have been "designed to fire a fixed shotgun shell" by using that hybrid chamber reamer.

ke6guj
01-10-2010, 1:27 PM
I seriously doubt receiver marking or marketing is relevant. If it can chamber a .410 shell it can be considered an SBS.
so many/most <18" barrelled .45-70 firearms could be considered SBS as well?

I am however willing to bet that the majority of Judge owners in CA are LEO's.since the Judge is not on the roster, most transfer would have to be be done to a roster-exempt person, which is usually an LEO, I'd agree with that. And expecially with it being known that some dealers in CA are/were actively selling Judges to CA LEOs.

lorax3
01-10-2010, 1:39 PM
so many/most <18" barrelled .45-70 firearms could be considered SBS as well?

If it can chamber a .410 then I would say yes. I do not think people realized how inclusive the SBS definition was. I bet if there was a serial killer out there using a 16" .45-70 carbine but shooting .410 to kill their victims they would see a SBS charge if an LEA and DA's office wanted as many charges as possible.

I think a charge would be possible, but unlikely again unless something fishy is going on. Or maybe I have been watching too much Dexter.

since the Judge is not on the roster, most transfer would have to be be done to a roster-exempt person, which is usually an LEO, I'd agree with that. And expecially with it being known that some dealers in CA are/were actively selling Judges to CA LEOs.

Right, and the DOJ could find out who owns these. I do not mean this in any anti-LEO manner but perhaps the few Judge owners in CA will be left alone to avoid bad press on behalf on their agency.

No one wants to see 'DOJ arrests 25 officers statewide for illegal possession of a short-barreled shotguns'

bigcalidave
01-10-2010, 2:46 PM
I think that even the designed or redesigned language wouldn't matter, as soon as you put a .410 into anything with an <18" barrel, you are possibly redesigning the weapon to fire a fixed shotgun shell.

tankerman
01-10-2010, 3:22 PM
Judge = Uninteresting novelty gun.

vta
01-10-2010, 3:29 PM
you can not pass as a single shot without qualifying with the barrel min length (6 inchs) and the min overall length (10.5 inches) requirements.

On the other hand, if someone can modify the judge to make it single action only, then we might have a loop hole.

bigcalidave
01-10-2010, 7:12 PM
you can not pass as a single shot without qualifying with the barrel min length (6 inchs) and the min overall length (10.5 inches) requirements.

On the other hand, if someone can modify the judge to make it single action only, then we might have a loop hole.


No, we wouldn't.
What part of SBS isn't clear? (apart from "fixed shotgun shell" :P )

M47_Dragon
01-10-2010, 8:40 PM
Wanting a Taurus Judge is like wanting a bucktooth,cross eyed, ugly girl who wont put out, just because she ignored you.


Hey! She didn't ignore me!



wait...

Rukus
01-10-2010, 8:56 PM
And remember the AW part about "Shotgun with a revolving cylinder"

Trendkill
01-10-2010, 9:34 PM
Judge = Uninteresting novelty gun.

I agree....

ke6guj
01-10-2010, 9:52 PM
And remember the AW part about "Shotgun with a revolving cylinder"A handgun like the Judge does not meet the defintion of a "shotgun". A shotgun is defined as being designed to be fired from the shoulder, so since it is not a shotgun, it should not fall under the AW defintion of a "shotgun with a revolving cylinder".

vta
01-10-2010, 10:19 PM
No, we wouldn't.
What part of SBS isn't clear? (apart from "fixed shotgun shell" :P )

Not a shotgun.

A handgun like the Judge does not meet the defintion of a "shotgun". A shotgun is defined as being designed to be fired from the shoulder, so since it is not a shotgun, it should not fall under the AW defintion of a "shotgun with a revolving cylinder".

Because of this.

dfletcher
01-10-2010, 10:27 PM
Actually, if "The Judge" were chambered for 45/70 and stamped "45/70 Govt" and it happened to also chamber a 410 shell - that would be prefectly legal, correct? Also, couldn't I buy some empty 410 brass (it's out there) run it through my 45/70 sizing die then proceed to load it with shot and use it out of my T/C 45/70 handgun barrel?

ke6guj
01-10-2010, 10:28 PM
Not a shotgun.



Because of this.

It has been repeatedly mentioned in this forum that CA law does not require a firearm be a shotgun first before it can be considered a short barreled shotgun. Federal law does require an SBS be a shotgun before it can be an SBS, but CA doesn't.

ke6guj
01-10-2010, 10:30 PM
Actually, if "The Judge" were chambered for 45/70 and stamped "45/70 Govt" and it happened to also chamber a 410 shell - that would be prefectly legal, correct? you'd still have to deal with the roster.

Magnum Research makes the BFR in .45-70 and it is roster-exempt as a dimensionally compliant single-action revolver. Now, whether or not it could be considered an CA-defined SBS is something for the lawyers to argue over. Yes, it may be able to fire a .410 shotgun shell, but was it "designed or redesigned" to? Does the act of actually inserting a .410 shell make it an SBS per the owner "redesigning" it from a .45-70 handgun to a firearm that now shoots shotgun shells?