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stylett9
01-10-2010, 12:25 AM
So the other day I'm at a local Japanese fast food place getting some food to go on my lunch break. Then i see an armed Boeing security guard walk in to pick up his to go order. Just FYI-there are several large Boeing facilities close to where I work. I'm sitting there looking at him wondering, what legal right does he have to carry his loaded weapon off-site from his employer. To my understanding, if your employer authorizes you to be armed on the premise of the work area, then that is fine. However once you step foot off your employers property and especially onto public roads, and public restaurants, aren't you not allowed to be locked and loaded from that point on? I was almost tempted to ask the security guard what his legal rights were, but I didn't want to cause a scene.

So main question, as a Security Guard for Boeing(not a government entity to my knowledge) is he allowed to walk around with his gun locked, loaded, and in plain view for everyone to see, as if he is a police officer? He did mention to another patron that he was formerly a police officer some time ago, so I don't know if that changes the situation for him...

JDay
01-10-2010, 1:19 AM
IIRC he can carry to/from work, not sure if he's allowed to make any stops though.

leitung
01-10-2010, 1:48 AM
Okay here is the thing...( I am a armed security guard myself)

Under the law, we are permitted to carry "on duty" and to and from work in approved uniform.

12031 (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

(d) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who
have been issued a certificate pursuant to Section 12033. The
certificate shall not be required of any person who is a peace
officer, who has completed all training required by law for the
exercise of his or her power as a peace officer, and who is employed
while not on duty as a peace officer.


(3) Private investigators and private patrol operators who are
licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7512) of,
and alarm company operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.6
(commencing with Section 7590) of, Division 3 of the Business and
Professions Code, while acting within the course and scope of their
employment.
(4) Uniformed security guards or night watch persons employed by
any public agency, while acting within the scope and course of their
employment.
(5) Uniformed security guards, regularly employed and compensated
in that capacity by persons engaged in any lawful business, and
uniformed alarm agents employed by an alarm company operator, while
actually engaged in protecting and preserving the property of their
employers or on duty or en route to or from their residences or their
places of employment, and security guards and alarm agents en route
to or from their residences or employer-required range training.
Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit cities and
counties from enacting ordinances requiring alarm agents to register
their names.
(6) Uniformed employees of private patrol operators and private
investigators licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with
Section 7512) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code,
while acting within the course and scope of their employment.


Basically subsection 6 is the catch all, if the company (i.e. your supervisor) permits you to carry off property for lunch, then it's usually okay. Now, my company requires me to keep carrying while in lunch in the event of a call back to the post. I am paid for my lunches therefore I am still under the authority of my employer. However I work for a PPO, if he works just for boeing, not a PPO company contracted by boeing, he should not be locked and loaded. Nor should he be wearing a baton off his site unless he is directly to and from work.
Now this does not mean he can get off work and go down to the club, bar or food joint and kick it with his buddies not should he be stopping at the stop n rob or anything else on the way home, as he is not acting in the course and scope of employment, now fueling up a company car while on patrol is considered in the course and scope of employment, usually a paid required lunch is considered in the course and scope of employment as well.

Usually, local cops and the like won't enforce any of this unless there is some other aggravating circumstance, but you can bet your biddy BSIS will if they come around.

Also, word to the wise.. don't confront security personel while they are on duty or in uniform, while your concern is legit, I have been in the industry long enough to tell you that you will most likely be hounded or blown off. If you have a concern, walk out and call local law enforcement or the BSIS.

leitung
01-10-2010, 1:55 AM
Also,
He did mention to another patron that he was formerly a police officer some time ago, so I don't know if that changes the situation for him...

Yeah they all do, freakin idiots.. :rolleyes:

Usually they aren't, or they got fired for being an idiot.. as the owners of most security companies are. Most owners are washed up failed cops...;)

detcord
01-10-2010, 3:36 AM
in my experience theres three types of security guards, those that consider it a normal job who will frequently forget the rules(when confronted will just give u the leave me alone type of attitude), those that abide by the rules(will explain the law to you and give up their lunch hour to make sure you feel okay about what theyre doing), and those that will give you the im a cop speil...(threaten you and try to intimidate).

most are of the first category... theyre just trying to make a living and likely have several jobs... its best to just leave security guys alone unless theyre doing something stupid.

MP301
01-10-2010, 4:17 AM
So the other day I'm at a local Japanese fast food place getting some food to go on my lunch break. Then i see an armed Boeing security guard walk in to pick up his to go order. Just FYI-there are several large Boeing facilities close to where I work. I'm sitting there looking at him wondering, what legal right does he have to carry his loaded weapon off-site from his employer. To my understanding, if your employer authorizes you to be armed on the premise of the work area, then that is fine. However once you step foot off your employers property and especially onto public roads, and public restaurants, aren't you not allowed to be locked and loaded from that point on? I was almost tempted to ask the security guard what his legal rights were, but I didn't want to cause a scene.

So main question, as a Security Guard for Boeing(not a government entity to my knowledge) is he allowed to walk around with his gun locked, loaded, and in plain view for everyone to see, as if he is a police officer? He did mention to another patron that he was formerly a police officer some time ago, so I don't know if that changes the situation for him...

If he is on duty and on company business, (even picking up lunch nearby),he is good to go generally unless doing smething stupid. No one is going to care unless the guy is doing something wrong, the owner has a problem with it or some stupid jacka** makes it into an issue (calls cops or consumer affairs). Who freakin cares? The owner of the place can have a cow and ask him to leave, but that would be counter productive since they like armed uniformed people around. One more obsticle in between them and the BG.

Why do you care? Was the guy doing something that offended you? Was it because he was carrying and you cant? Did the property owner have an issue with it? No? then why should you?Were you afraid of a guy with a gun? I really dont understand why this was an issue for you. If SHTF, thats one more, if not the only, gun available that might just save someone's a**. Have you not been following the idea that more guns equals less crime?

Im not trying to be confrontational, I just want to understand why someone would have a problem with this guy carrying his gun while picking up lunch, thats all.

stylett9
01-10-2010, 11:32 AM
If he is on duty and on company business, (even picking up lunch nearby),he is good to go generally unless doing smething stupid. No one is going to care unless the guy is doing something wrong, the owner has a problem with it or some stupid jacka** makes it into an issue (calls cops or consumer affairs). Who freakin cares? The owner of the place can have a cow and ask him to leave, but that would be counter productive since they like armed uniformed people around. One more obsticle in between them and the BG.

Why do you care? Was the guy doing something that offended you? Was it because he was carrying and you cant? Did the property owner have an issue with it? No? then why should you?Were you afraid of a guy with a gun? I really dont understand why this was an issue for you. If SHTF, thats one more, if not the only, gun available that might just save someone's a**. Have you not been following the idea that more guns equals less crime?

Im not trying to be confrontational, I just want to understand why someone would have a problem with this guy carrying his gun while picking up lunch, thats all.

If I made poor choice of wording leading you to believe I cared or I was concerned, then I'm sorry, because i wasn't. I was genuinely curious in what his legal rights were since he was carrying off site.

tazmanian devil dog
01-10-2010, 12:41 PM
I am also an armed guard. I work for a Federal Contractor who provides armed officers to various Federal Facilities throughout Kalifornia and Nevada. I have been doing this for 10 years now and I can honestly state the following:

1. As long as the guard is in full uniform and has all his state licenses, there is not one LEO on the planet that is going to bug him/her for stopping to get a Starbucks on the way/from work let alone on his/her lunch break.

The law states we can be armed going to and from work and while on duty. That doesn't mean we can stop by Safeway after work and do our grocery shopping in full uniform w/gun. However, a quick stop for gas, coffee and the like is not going to get you as a guard in trouble.

It's frankly all about common sense and looking and acting professional. As long as the guard doesn't act like a complete moron and or do something stupid, there shouldn't be a problem.

In 10 years, I have never ever had a LEO so much as check my guard cards, even when I've been pulled over on the way to work for a minor traffic infraction. Act right and you'll be treated right. Enough said??

iRIGHTi
01-10-2010, 12:59 PM
from my understanding, licensed guards with exposed firearms permits may also carry loaded to and from home/work to the range for training/qualifications. the weapon must be a caliber you are qualified/approved by BSIS to carry. when going somewhere not on company time, just pop out the mag and put it in a carrier. UOC rules then apply. transportation laws always apply while driving and you're not on duty or going to or from work/range.

strangerdude
01-10-2010, 1:03 PM
I'm an armed guard, If he is a supervisor and drives around yes he is allowed. Other than that no, only to and from work in uniform and no stopping, you go straight home. I never carry while driving to work and back, I just throw it in my trunk.

iright we cannot open carry for range qualification.

BigDogatPlay
01-10-2010, 2:21 PM
Also,


Yeah they all do, freakin idiots.. :rolleyes:

Usually they aren't, or they got fired for being an idiot.. as the owners of most security companies are. Most owners are washed up failed cops...;)

This is a little harsh, even with the smileys, don't you think?

gunsmith
01-10-2010, 3:44 PM
I would always carry while at lunch & on breaks when I was doing armed security.
One time a cop stopped me on my way to work and told me I couldn't carry on my way to work. ... I stated "fine, can you hook me up with a ccw?" he laughed and gave me a lift to work! on the way I told him it was legal to carry to work and offered to show my creds but he said it was all good.

MP301
01-10-2010, 8:52 PM
If I made poor choice of wording leading you to believe I cared or I was concerned, then I'm sorry, because i wasn't. I was genuinely curious in what his legal rights were since he was carrying off site.

Yes, it did come off as a bit of an attack, but thanks for clarifying your thoughts. Its all good.

Some of us are a liittle sensitive on these kinds of gun issues because gun owners like to eat thier own before they stop and think about what it is they are doing/saying.

Just think how formidable (and scary to the anit gun people) gun owners would be if they ever just stayed the course on gun rights across the board without all of the backbiting. Gun owner A thinks only hunting is good and CCW is bad -or- gun owner be doesnt see the need for those evil assault rifles, etc...

All for one and one for all shouldnt just be the credo for the 3 (or was it 4?) Musketeers. And did anyone ever wonder why those Musketeers never had Muskets?

Twist18
01-10-2010, 11:52 PM
I am also an armed guard. I work for a Federal Contractor who provides armed officers to various Federal Facilities throughout Kalifornia and Nevada. I have been doing this for 10 years now and I can honestly state the following:

1. As long as the guard is in full uniform and has all his state licenses, there is not one LEO on the planet that is going to bug him/her for stopping to get a Starbucks on the way/from work let alone on his/her lunch break.

The law states we can be armed going to and from work and while on duty. That doesn't mean we can stop by Safeway after work and do our grocery shopping in full uniform w/gun. However, a quick stop for gas, coffee and the like is not going to get you as a guard in trouble.

It's frankly all about common sense and looking and acting professional. As long as the guard doesn't act like a complete moron and or do something stupid, there shouldn't be a problem.

In 10 years, I have never ever had a LEO so much as check my guard cards, even when I've been pulled over on the way to work for a minor traffic infraction. Act right and you'll be treated right. Enough said??

Hey Taz, I was wondering if I could PM you? I've been wondering about Federal Security jobs, but I didn't know how to find information on them! Thanks!

randy
01-11-2010, 12:35 AM
They cannot carry off of company property.

Retired cops shouldn't be in uniform working on movie sets either but they are impersonating a cops on a regular basis. This might be a little old because there was a "movement" to get things changed.

Old Timer
01-11-2010, 5:56 AM
However I work for a PPO, if he works just for boeing, not a PPO company contracted by boeing, he should not be locked and loaded. Nor should he be wearing a baton off his site unless he is directly to and from work. This is not entirely accurate. An non-PPO Security Officer must have a Propriatary Security Officer registration card. However, PSO cards are not allowed to also have a Exposed Firearms Permit. In order to have an Exposed Firearms Permit the Security Officer MUST have a Guard Card AND a Gun Card. The Guard Card is considered a "step up" from the PSO card and allows all the same activity as a guard working for a PPO.

Old Timer
01-11-2010, 5:59 AM
I'm an armed guard, If he is a supervisor and drives around yes he is allowed. Other than that no, only to and from work in uniform and no stopping, you go straight home. I never carry while driving to work and back, I just throw it in my trunk.FUD!

Old Timer
01-11-2010, 6:01 AM
They cannot carry off of company property.FUD!

MP301
01-11-2010, 8:58 PM
Originally Posted by longbeach
I'm an armed guard, If he is a supervisor and drives around yes he is allowed. Other than that no, only to and from work in uniform and no stopping, you go straight home. I never carry while driving to work and back, I just throw it in my trunk.

FUD!

Not completely accurate, but not FUD either. If an officer works vehicle patrol, going between different patrol areas (HOA's, Shopping centers, Apartment complexes, etc.,) And he has his Guard/gun cards, he is good to go. He does not have to be a supervisor, although with most cookie cutter companies, its usual only supervisors in cars/patrol. Patrol officers can even go to Denny's and eat thier meal armed if they want.

I am a PPO (first licensed in 1988) and specialize in armed patrol/response. I made it a point to know exactly what I, as well as my employees, can and can't do.

And yes, technically (provided your not on duty doing patrol), only to and from work/range is allowed whilst packing. However, unless your an idiot doing something stupid, no one will ever say anything if you stop for gas/coffee/meal on your way to or from.




Originally Posted by randy
They cannot carry off of company property.

FUD!

Correct on FUD. If your employer sends you to get copy paper/food/band aids, or whatever, while your on duty, you are good to go. The consideration would be that the employer is taking on the liability sending you somnwhere on duty with a gun in the event the employee gets into a shootout at staples or something.

randy
01-12-2010, 1:39 AM
You guys can say fud all you want but I'm not going for it.

If you are a generic stand your post armed guard your employeer can't send you to run errands with a loaded exposed firearm. Your employment doesn't trump state law and you aren't a POST certified cop.

I could be wrong and I will verify this information in the morning.

Old Timer
01-12-2010, 5:15 AM
You guys can say fud all you want but I'm not going for it.Fine. Don't. But don't post a bunch of nonsense about what others legally do.If you are a generic stand your post armed guard your employeer can't send you to run errands with a loaded exposed firearm.Wrong! I employ about 70 Security Officers of which about 50 are armed. If I send them off property to do a job for me they are in uniform, carrying permits, and on duty. That are 100% within the law.Your employment doesn't trump state law and you aren't a POST certified cop.Read the BSIS regs. I could be wrong and I will verify this information in the morning.Good idea!

Old Timer
01-12-2010, 5:18 AM
[B]Not completely accurate, but not FUD either.This was FUD! " . . . only to and from work in uniform and no stopping, you go straight home." If you stop for gas on the way to work there is no prohibition from being uniformed, armed, with permits in your possession. To say "no stopping" without qualification is FUD!

randy
01-12-2010, 2:04 PM
I'm not going to say I was wrong I talked with my buddy that runs the bsis program in so cal and he disagrees with you. I've emailed him the link to this thread and he's going to comment on it directly.

Unless I'm missing some little nuance old timer you're incorrect. Like I said I could be wrong

Danbo1972
02-24-2012, 11:53 AM
I have had many guards working under me at a couple of places. The guards that are required to carry "on post" could carry to and from their homes and work. Stopping in between is NOT okay. That being said, "IF" you have a guard who, for instance is a patrol officer, it is recommended that they be provided a letter from management that allows them to carry while on "PAID LUNCH". This is important because some police think they have to bother people eating a taco. This letter is not required if there is a management member available to get the guard out of hot water with a phone call from the police officer.
Now, this letter isn't required, merely a suggestion to those who allow their guards to carry while on break.
Another point. If the guard stops at circle K to get a pack of smokes and, with managements permission of course, solicits business from the clerk there, ie. standing guard, patrol service, etc. then it is still perfectly legal.
I used to provide "security services" at a hand full of restaurants while I was on lunch. this is much better than leaving my gun in the trunk where it can be accessed or handled unnecessarily in public view where an accidental discharge could happen. It's just safer all together. (if you have hired professional guards)

Tacobandit
02-24-2012, 12:10 PM
Yes he can

Old Timer
02-24-2012, 4:46 PM
I used to provide "security services" at a hand full of restaurants while I was on lunch. Then you broke the law and are subject to criminal liability and civil sanctions. Unless you have a PPO license you CANNOT make any private contract. There MUST be a business/client relationship between the restaurant and your PPO.

gunsmith
02-25-2012, 1:03 PM
dawn of the dead threads!




one time on my way from work as an armed guard in San Francisco a guy asked me "when are you allowed to shoot people" I replied "when I'm in a bad mood or hungover"
;-)

Another time someone wanted to know how you get certified in CA to be an armed guard "you need to join the NRA first" he was a liberal and got all bent out of shape!! LOL!!

12voltguy
02-25-2012, 2:26 PM
I'm not going to say I was wrong I talked with my buddy that runs the bsis program in so cal and he disagrees with you. I've emailed him the link to this thread and he's going to comment on it directly.

Unless I'm missing some little nuance old timer you're incorrect. Like I said I could be wrong

2 years later, where is your buddy?

SanPedroShooter
02-25-2012, 2:46 PM
I think that dude died....

12voltguy
02-25-2012, 3:41 PM
I think that dude died....

opp's:(

socal2310
02-25-2012, 3:47 PM
2 years later, where is your buddy?

If you look at his last post (or really, any of his posts) you will see that it says, "In Memoriam." You will also observe, if you click on his name, that someone posted memorial to him around 8:00 the following evening.

Ryan

San Pedro Shooter beat me to it.

paul0660
02-25-2012, 3:56 PM
there is not one LEO on the planet

Dead hooker argument.

Danbo1972
08-07-2013, 11:27 AM
Then you broke the law and are subject to criminal liability and civil sanctions. Unless you have a PPO license you CANNOT make any private contract. There MUST be a business/client relationship between the restaurant and your PPO.

pretty quick to jump to conclusion on what law were broke and who broke them. I guess you thought Zimmerman was guilty the day before the incident too, didn't you? I was a ppo and no, no contract has to be made between the restraunt and the ppo. as long as they are paid while on lunch or, as you have indicated, an arrangement has been made with the restraunt to provide security for them while they are on lunch. But hey, what do I know. I've only been in the industry for 22 years, owned two comapnies and was the qm for another. Im a firearms instructor and baton course instructor and considered an expert witness by the courts.
you go on with that thought process though. You're right... there, I said it.

epilepticninja
08-07-2013, 11:36 AM
pretty quick to jump to conclusion on what law were broke and who broke them. I guess you thought Zimmerman was guilty the day before the incident too, didn't you? I was a ppo and no, no contract has to be made between the restraunt and the ppo. as long as they are paid while on lunch or, as you have indicated, an arrangement has been made with the restraunt to provide security for them while they are on lunch. But hey, what do I know. I've only been in the industry for 22 years, owned two comapnies and was the qm for another. Im a firearms instructor and baton course instructor and considered an expert witness by the courts.
you go on with that thought process though. You're right... there, I said it.

How big was the shovel you used to unearth this relic of a thread? :facepalm:

eMerG636
08-07-2013, 10:35 PM
yeah i saw an armed security enter my work and he was buying something to drink, and there where a whole bunch of people in line, and why is it ok for people not to panic when they see someone in uniform carrying a gun but when they see a normal person carrying hes gun in a holster they call the cops on him and panic.

midlife
08-07-2013, 10:43 PM
Can't retired LEO carry?

Librarian
08-07-2013, 11:07 PM
The warning " It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose." was correct.