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locosway
01-09-2010, 8:25 AM
I spent the morning trying to get a straight answer on this subject. It's my understanding that rural areas and national forests allow LOC. However, after spending some time on the phone I was told that I would be confronted if carrying a sidearm and that the only way it's legal is if I'm hunting. The person I talked to also said that normal hikers don't get harrassed, so if I keep it out of sight, they wouldn't bother me.

Now, I understand concealed is illegal without a permit, and I don't want to go that way for obvious reasons even if the chances of getting caught are a million to one. However, I would like to LOC out there when I'm hiking with my wife, but everyone seems to think it's illegal and I don't want to be the one to make case law at this time.

Does anyone else have any information regarding this? I know Mudcamper had done some stuff on this subject, but there was never a decisive answer anywhere.

Ballistic043
01-09-2010, 8:31 AM
while i cant say anything outside my own opinions (Better to have it and not need it) i can post a forum thread with some information and additional advise for someone in your situation. check it out

http://www.calccw.com/Forums/general-ccw-discussion/3550-concealed-holstered-carry-national-forest-w-o-ccw.html


hiking through SBNF for years, i have seen my share of mountain lion and bobcat tracks in the snow. fresh enough to warrant concern, i wouldnt be caught dead without at least a handgun.

xnv733x
01-09-2010, 8:35 AM
i went out a while ago in the trabuco ranger dist. i called the office in corona and asked the same thing i was told it was ok by them if i wanted to LOC i was in the tenaja falls area and didnt have any problems although i didnt even see a ranger

locosway
01-09-2010, 8:39 AM
i went out a while ago in the trabuco ranger dist. i called the office in corona and asked the same thing i was told it was ok by them if i wanted to LOC i was in the tenaja falls area and didnt have any problems although i didnt even see a ranger

There was no one there when I called that office, which is where I'd be, in the Trabuco area. I called the San Diego number they had on the machine which was just dispatch. She put me in touch with a BC for fire, who contacted some chief LEO for the forest who told him it was illegal unless I was hunting, so I told him generally it was legal. He came back and said the Ranger told him that it was legal if I didn't have a round chambered. I told him that didn't make sense under CA law as a loaded magazine in a sidearm regardless of a round being chambered was still loaded.

I could probably LOC and never even see another person, but the off chance I run across a Ranger, I know I'd be making case law, which isn't my intent.

locosway
01-09-2010, 8:41 AM
while i cant say anything outside my own opinions (Better to have it and not need it) i can post a forum thread with some information and additional advise for someone in your situation. check it out

http://www.calccw.com/Forums/general-ccw-discussion/3550-concealed-holstered-carry-national-forest-w-o-ccw.html


hiking through SBNF for years, i have seen my share of mountain lion and bobcat tracks in the snow. fresh enough to warrant concern, i wouldnt be caught dead without at least a handgun.

I had read that, and the moderators don't seem to know the law, they're saying it's illegal if you're "just hiking" which isn't true. Rural areas in CA and National forests are legal to carry, however, CA law supercedes federal in the National forest.

pullnshoot25
01-09-2010, 8:54 AM
Get your hunter's safety permit
Coyotes are always in season
Have fun.

locosway
01-09-2010, 9:01 AM
Get your hunter's safety permit
Coyotes are always in season
Have fun.

I guess they wouldn't question a handgun for coyotes, correct?

xnv733x
01-09-2010, 9:08 AM
when did you call the corona office last time i called was a saturday and they answered might want to try again

GrizzlyGuy
01-09-2010, 9:19 AM
MudCamper's thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) is the best source of info. For national forests in general, LOC is legal, but there are restrictions. If the NF is in CA, state law still applies. So as per 12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html), you can't carry loaded in places that are restricted (no discharge).

There could be forest orders in place for the particular national forest that add additional restrictions. Here are the forest orders for Cleveland (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/forest-orders.shtml).

locosway
01-09-2010, 1:17 PM
MudCamper's thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) is the best source of info. For national forests in general, LOC is legal, but there are restrictions. If the NF is in CA, state law still applies. So as per 12031 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html), you can't carry loaded in places that are restricted (no discharge).

There could be forest orders in place for the particular national forest that add additional restrictions. Here are the forest orders for Cleveland (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/forest-orders.shtml).

As I said, Mudcamper did have a good post on this, but there's no definitive answer. I wanted to find out if there were restrictions, so I told them I know it's legal in general, but CA law supercedes and the USFS can impose further restrictions. They said it's illegal no matter what... So even if it is legal, I would likely be detained/arrested for being legal.

pullnshoot25
01-09-2010, 1:26 PM
I guess they wouldn't question a handgun for coyotes, correct?

Is it illegal to hunt with a handgun? You can use anything to take coyotes. Besides, that is what the Tracker is for, right? I am confident I could hit a coyote at up to 70yds using standard self-defense loads.

franklinarmory
01-09-2010, 1:39 PM
No it is not illegal to hunt with a handgun, but you must obviously have a hunting license (...even for vermin.) Also, it is completely legal to carry concealed while hunting. So, maybe it would be worth it for you to get a hunting license so you don't have to worry about it.

mike_schwartz@mail.com
01-09-2010, 8:10 PM
Below is an e-mail I sent regarding a specific area I plan on hiking in. I already knew the answer, but I wanted an e-mail response I could print and carry with me. The area I was asking about is in Cleveland National Forest.

-Michael




Mr. Schwartz,


I'm responding to your question in reference to carrying a loaded firearm in the Laguna Meadows area of the Cleveland National Forest. You are correct, as long as you have legal authority to possess a firearm with the state you can carry a unconcealed loaded firearm on NFS lands. Key points to keep in mind are first to make sure you are in an unincorporated part of the county which Laguna Meadows falls under and if you are in lawful pursuit of any bird or mammal (hunting) please insure you follow California Department of Fish and Game state regulations. Thank you for your question and if you have any other questions please feel free to contact me.


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Anthony Rose, Patrol Captain
Law Enforcement & Investigations
Cleveland National Forest
10845 Rancho Bernardo Rd. Suite #200
San Diego, CA. 92127
Office #(858) 524-0125 Ext 3125
CP # (619) 508-0493
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~



Hello,
From what I can tell, when hiking around the Laguna Meadow and Big Laguna Lake, firearms can be loaded, but must not be concealed (unless you have a concealed weapon permit). So a hiker can legally carry a loaded firearm in a holster on their belt while hiking. This is how it appears after reviewing the California Penal Code and the County Regs. Can you confirm this?

-Michael

pullnshoot25
01-10-2010, 6:51 PM
Below is an e-mail I sent regarding a specific area I plan on hiking in. I already knew the answer, but I wanted an e-mail response I could print and carry with me. The area I was asking about is in Cleveland National Forest.

-Michael




Mr. Schwartz,


I'm responding to your question in reference to carrying a loaded firearm in the Laguna Meadows area of the Cleveland National Forest. You are correct, as long as you have legal authority to possess a firearm with the state you can carry a unconcealed loaded firearm on NFS lands. Key points to keep in mind are first to make sure you are in an unincorporated part of the county which Laguna Meadows falls under and if you are in lawful pursuit of any bird or mammal (hunting) please insure you follow California Department of Fish and Game state regulations. Thank you for your question and if you have any other questions please feel free to contact me.


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Anthony Rose, Patrol Captain
Law Enforcement & Investigations
Cleveland National Forest
10845 Rancho Bernardo Rd. Suite #200
San Diego, CA. 92127
Office #(858) 524-0125 Ext 3125
CP # (619) 508-0493
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~



Hello,
From what I can tell, when hiking around the Laguna Meadow and Big Laguna Lake, firearms can be loaded, but must not be concealed (unless you have a concealed weapon permit). So a hiker can legally carry a loaded firearm in a holster on their belt while hiking. This is how it appears after reviewing the California Penal Code and the County Regs. Can you confirm this?

-Michael

Not entirely true. You can CCW while going to, during and while coming from a hunting or fixing expedition with a valid hunting permit.

Hunt
01-10-2010, 11:05 PM
while i cant say anything outside my own opinions (Better to have it and not need it) i can post a forum thread with some information and additional advise for someone in your situation. check it out

http://www.calccw.com/Forums/general-ccw-discussion/3550-concealed-holstered-carry-national-forest-w-o-ccw.html


hiking through SBNF for years, i have seen my share of mountain lion and bobcat tracks in the snow. fresh enough to warrant concern, i wouldnt be caught dead without at least a handgun.

there are some real freaks out there as well, had some freak with a mountaineering ice axe hanging around my car he looked like a Manson family member. Anyway this was the one day I did not carry a sidearm in the CNF.
I buy a hunting license and when I am hiking I open carry as I am hunting jackrabbits or coyotes open season all year. I think we need a lot more people open carrying in the NF we have guns and we are here, get used to it.

Hunt
01-10-2010, 11:20 PM
I guess they wouldn't question a handgun for coyotes, correct?
pay attention guys first the LAGUNA REC AREA is off limits to firearms hunting! When looking into carrying in NF and BLM lands make sure the area is open to firearms hunting. If open to firearms hunting then the DFG rules apply, you can hunt coyotes year round with any centerfire pistol or rifle. If you want to carry rimfire or shotgun just become a jack rabbit hunter as cottontails have a season. One thing I do just to make things much easier is keep a little carrying case with a lock in the backpack so if I see there are sherrifs or rangers at the trailhead just lock up and no need to be detained for an hour and yet be perfectly legal as it is legal to transport firearms for hunting unloaded in locked container in your pack. Read the DFG rules, there is a lot of latitude for carrying in there, just become familiar with them and don't do stupid things.

GrizzlyGuy
01-11-2010, 5:29 AM
pay attention guys first the LAGUNA REC AREA is off limits to firearms hunting! When looking into carrying in NF and BLM lands make sure the area is open to firearms hunting.

Yes, that is important. If a forest order exists that restricts firearms, it takes precedence over state laws, hunting regulations, etc. For example, here is a forest order restricting firearms (http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/news/orders/12-08-234-Tonto-Firearms-final.pdf) in some areas of another national forest.

Note also that forest orders are the only way that a national forest can override general national forest regulations (http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title36/36-2.0.1.1.18.1.29.12.html) (which generally permit firearms). So if a ranger or forest service employee says that you can't have a firearm in some area, ask to see the forest order. They have copies of them at every ranger station and they are usually online. If no forest order exists, it is FUD.

FYI, I put a link to the Cleveland National Forest forest orders in a post above.

joelberg
01-11-2010, 5:40 AM
Sec. 261.8 Fish and wildlife. The following are prohibited to the extent Federal or State law is violated:
(a) Hunting, trapping, fishing, catching, molesting, killing or having in possession any kind of wild animal, bird, or fish, or taking the eggs of any such bird.
(b) Possessing a firearm or other implement designed to discharge a missile capable of destroying animal life.
(c) Possessing equipment which could be used for hunting, fishing, or trapping.
(d) Possessing a dog not on a leash or otherwise confined.
(e) Curtail the free movement of any animal or plant life into or out of a cave, except as authorized to protect a cave resource.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/forestorders/36-part261.pdf
From http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/forest-orders.shtml

So this means open carry of sidearms is legal in Cleveland National Forest, correct?

GrizzlyGuy
01-11-2010, 6:14 AM
http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/forestorders/36-part261.pdf
From http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/forest-orders.shtml

So this means open carry of sidearms is legal in Cleveland National Forest, correct?

That's basically saying that if there is some other federal (e.g., a forest order), state or local law/regulation prohibiting firearm possession, then it is also a violation of that federal regulation to have one. From the federal standpoint, Cleveland could be restricted based on a forest order. But local and state regulations could also restrict it.

For example, up here there are county ordinances that make firearm possession illegal in some areas (game refuges) within the national forests. To know about those, you have to review the county code, they typically won't show up in forest orders (don't need to, local laws apply).

So to know if you can possess firearms in Cleveland, you'd have to check for forest orders and for any state/local laws or regulations that could restrict it.

If none of those exist, then these general prohibitions from 36 CFR 261.10 (http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title36/36-2.0.1.1.18.1.29.12.html) apply:

(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:
(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
(3) Into or within any cave.

Where applicable (ex: near a building) those discharge prohibitions become restricted areas under 12031, so you then can't carry loaded in those areas (even if hunting). IMHO, those discharge prohibitions make loaded carry dicey. It is easy to be hiking along and get to within 150 yards of a campsite without even knowing about it. People can typically camp anywhere in a national forest, not just in the designated campgrounds.

gunsmith
01-11-2010, 8:47 AM
I always thought LOC was only legal at a campsite, not while hiking.
I hope I'm wrong!

GrizzlyGuy
01-11-2010, 9:16 AM
I always thought LOC was only legal at a campsite, not while hiking.
I hope I'm wrong!

See my post above or (better yet) see here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457). In general LOC is OK in national forests, but it really depends on the particular forest and where you are in that forest. The safe bet is to assume that LOC is prohibited unless you've verified that it is OK.

Campsites can even be an issue in forests with no restrictions since the boundary of your campsite can be fuzzy. If you carry loaded on your way to a bathroom, or through/past someone else's campsite, that can be prohibited per the general forest service regulations and 12031. I prefer dispersed camping (middle of nowhere, not in a campground) because there are less issues with LOC.

locosway
01-11-2010, 9:20 AM
Does anyone know what the stance is of CGF on LOC in the NF?

I understand they'll take any case that where the indicted was "legal" in following the law. As I understand it, LOC is completely legal in the CNF as long as you're in an unincorporated area of the county. So, I'd think that CGF would take up the case if there was one to arise.

MudCamper
01-11-2010, 9:33 AM
However, after spending some time on the phone I was told that I would be confronted if carrying a sidearm and that the only way it's legal is if I'm hunting.

I called the San Diego number they had on the machine which was just dispatch. She put me in touch with a BC for fire, who contacted some chief LEO for the forest who told him it was illegal unless I was hunting, so I told him generally it was legal. He came back and said the Ranger told him that it was legal if I didn't have a round chambered.

What you are hearing here is the confused and incorrect interpretation of various codes by misinformed NF personnel. It's just like asking a cop a legal question, you may get the correct answer, but more often than not you will get FUD.

If they tell you you can't carry, ask for the order that authorizes this. It must be a 36 CFR 261.57 (http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title36/36-2.0.1.1.18.2.29.8.html) order. And this particular type of order can only be ordered in a Wilderness Area, and not anywhere else in a forest.

If they tell you you can't shoot, ask for the order that authorizes it. It must be a 36 CFR 261.58 (http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title36/36-2.0.1.1.18.2.29.9.html) order. You can still UOC in this case.

If they can't cite an order, they just don't know what they are talking about and all that applies is 36 CFR 261.10 (d) (http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title36/36-2.0.1.1.18.1.29.12.html). This leaves you with LOC or UOC depending on where you are.

Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457).

ETA:

I wanted to find out if there were restrictions, so I told them I know it's legal in general, but CA law supercedes and the USFS can impose further restrictions. They said it's illegal no matter what... So even if it is legal, I would likely be detained/arrested for being legal.

Wow. That is some serious super-FUD. Ask them to cite the specific regulation or order that grants them that authority. They will not have an answer, in which case you can ignore them, or they will give you a code that they have misinterpreted, at which point you can attempt to educate them.

DJ Skillz
01-11-2010, 5:20 PM
I'm planning on hiking in Cleveland Forest with the girlfriend soon, though I plan on UOC to stay away from any possible BS that might arise.

Is it necessary to carry lead-free ammunition if the gun is not being used for hunting, or can I carry my regular JHPs?

Also:

Sec. 261.57 National Forest wilderness.
When provided by an order, the following are prohibited:
(a) Entering or being in the area.
(b) Possessing camping or pack-outfitting equipment, as specified in the order.
(c) Possessing a firearm or firework.
(d) Possessing any non-burnable food or beverage containers, including deposit bottles, except for non-burnable containers designed and intended for repeated use.
(e) Grazing.
(f) Storing equipment, personal property or supplies.
(g) Disposing of debris, garbage, or other waste.
(h) Possessing or using a wagon, cart or other vehicle.

I take it this means I cannot choose a trail that goes through a wilderness area?

added:

I just noticed it says "When provided by an order," and none of the orders on the list of forest orders (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/forest-orders.shtml) for Cleveland mention possession is prohibited. Unless, of course, the list is incomplete...

cmth
01-11-2010, 8:23 PM
Lead-free ammo is only required in the Condor Zone (http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/Ridley-TreeCondorPreservationAct.pdf) when hunting large game or non-game birds and mammals (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/). Coyotes are non-game mammals, so if you are hunting them in the Condor Zone, you must have lead-free ammo. The Condor Zone does not extend into the Cleveland National Forest, so you don't have to worry about it there.

Hunt
01-11-2010, 8:26 PM
[QiUOTE=DJ Skillz;3625106]I'm planning on hiking in Cleveland Forest with the girlfriend soon, though I plan on UOC to stay away from any possible BS that might arise.

Is it necessary to carry lead-free ammunition if the gun is not being used for hunting, or can I carry my regular JHPs?

Also:

Sec. 261.57 National Forest wilderness.
When provided by an order, the following are prohibited:
(a) Entering or being in the area.
Title(b) Possessing camping or pack-outfitting equipment, as specified in the order.
(c) Possessing a firearm or firework.
(d) Possessing any non-burnable food or beverage containers, including deposit bottles, except for non-burnable containers designed and intended for repeated use.
(e) Grazing.
(f) Storing equipment, personal property or supplies.
(g) Disposing of debris, garbage, or other waste.
(h) Possessing or using a wagon, cart or other vehicle.

I take it this means I cannot choose a trail that goes through a wilderness area?

added:

I just noticed it says "When provided by an order," and none of the orders on the list of forest orders (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/forest-orders.shtml) for Cleveland mention possession is prohibited. Unless, of course, the list is incomplete...[/QUOTE]

Laguna rec area closed to firearms hunting

DJ Skillz
01-11-2010, 9:04 PM
Lead-free ammo is only required in the Condor Zone (http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/docs/Ridley-TreeCondorPreservationAct.pdf) when hunting large game or non-game birds and mammals (http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/condor/). Coyotes are non-game mammals, so if you are hunting them in the Condor Zone, you must have lead-free ammo. The Condor Zone does not extend into the Cleveland National Forest, so you don't have to worry about it there.

Thanks. I was confused because on page 2 of the visitor's guide (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/visitorguide05.pdf) under 'hunting' it says "Use lead-free bullets to prevent wildlife poisoning." I'm guessing that's more of a request than a law.

DJ Skillz
01-11-2010, 9:07 PM
I'm planning on hiking in Cleveland Forest with the girlfriend soon, though I plan on UOC to stay away from any possible BS that might arise.

Is it necessary to carry lead-free ammunition if the gun is not being used for hunting, or can I carry my regular JHPs?

Also:

Sec. 261.57 National Forest wilderness.
When provided by an order, the following are prohibited:
(a) Entering or being in the area.
Title(b) Possessing camping or pack-outfitting equipment, as specified in the order.
(c) Possessing a firearm or firework.
(d) Possessing any non-burnable food or beverage containers, including deposit bottles, except for non-burnable containers designed and intended for repeated use.
(e) Grazing.
(f) Storing equipment, personal property or supplies.
(g) Disposing of debris, garbage, or other waste.
(h) Possessing or using a wagon, cart or other vehicle.

I take it this means I cannot choose a trail that goes through a wilderness area?

added:

I just noticed it says "When provided by an order," and none of the orders on the list of forest orders (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/forest-orders.shtml) for Cleveland mention possession is prohibited. Unless, of course, the list is incomplete...

Laguna rec area closed to firearms hunting

I'm not planning on hunting. I just want to make sure possession of firearms is not prohibited.

ChaparralCommando
01-11-2010, 9:13 PM
In Cleveland and other national forests it's illegal to discharge firearms from roads or trails, so I construe that to mean it's also illegal to have a loaded gun while on roads or trails, as that falls under "prohibited area of unincorporated territory" of pc 12031. But as soon as you step off established roads or trails, load up. At least that is how I do it while hunting, to be on the safe side.

joelberg
01-12-2010, 12:36 AM
Ugh. I want to see a definitive ruling on LOC in Cleveland National Forest...

MudCamper
01-12-2010, 7:46 AM
Is it necessary to carry lead-free ammunition if the gun is not being used for hunting, or can I carry my regular JHPs?

If you are not hunting, you don't need to worry about lead ammo.

Sec. 261.57 National Forest wilderness.

I take it this means I cannot choose a trail that goes through a wilderness area?

Yes, those orders only apply to wilderness areas, but they almost never get issued. I only know of one such order for one area in the entire state of California. I forget where... Immigrant Wilderness in Stanislaus NF maybe.

I just noticed it says "When provided by an order," and none of the orders on the list of forest orders (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/cleveland/about/forest-orders.shtml) for Cleveland mention possession is prohibited. Unless, of course, the list is incomplete...

They are required to post it thoroughly. If they do not, it does not apply.

Ugh. I want to see a definitive ruling on LOC in Cleveland National Forest...

It's really not all that complex. Just ignore the FUD.

I guess nobody can be bothered to read the Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) thread.

GrizzlyGuy
01-12-2010, 8:54 AM
Yes, those orders only apply to wilderness areas, but they almost never get issued. I only know of one such order for one area in the entire state of California. I forget where... Immigrant Wilderness in Stanislaus NF maybe.


FYI, they can also issue forest orders to restrict firearms in areas that aren't wilderness areas. I linked to this one (http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/news/orders/12-08-234-Tonto-Firearms-final.pdf) as an example (although not in CA) in a post above. Note the purpose of this order:

protection of National Forest visitors and employees in areas of high recreation use and forest-urban interface, where the indiscriminate discharge of a firearm is likely to pose a substantial risk to public safety

The restricted areas in this case are essentially the opposite of wilderness areas.

mej16489
01-12-2010, 9:34 AM
FYI, they can also issue forest orders to restrict firearms in areas that aren't wilderness areas. I linked to this one (http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/news/orders/12-08-234-Tonto-Firearms-final.pdf) as an example (although not in CA) in a post above. Note the purpose of this order:



The restricted areas in this case are essentially the opposite of wilderness areas.

Very interesting...I can't find the direct cite at the moment, but I was under the impression that the only legislated power to outright ban firearms posession was for designated Wilderness Areas. Hmm, maybe Mud and I discussed this on OCDO, I can't find it...

shooting4life
01-12-2010, 9:55 AM
If you are going to do the whole hunting with handgun thing make sure you have lead free bullets if you are in a condor area.

MudCamper
01-12-2010, 10:20 AM
FYI, they can also issue forest orders to restrict firearms in areas that aren't wilderness areas. I linked to this one (http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/tonto/news/orders/12-08-234-Tonto-Firearms-final.pdf) as an example (although not in CA) in a post above. Note the purpose of this order:



The restricted areas in this case are essentially the opposite of wilderness areas.

Don't confuse restrictions on shooting with restrictions on carry/possession. That is an important distinction.

They can ban carry/possession of operable firearms in Wilderness Areas per 36 CFR 261.57, but elsewhere can only ban shooting per 36 CFR 261.58.

That order you link is a shooting prohibition only. If it were CA, UOC would still be perfectly legal.

GrizzlyGuy
01-12-2010, 10:42 AM
Don't confuse restrictions on shooting with restrictions on carry/possession. That is an important distinction.

They can ban carry/possession of operable firearms in Wilderness Areas per 36 CFR 261.57, but elsewhere can only ban shooting per 36 CFR 261.58.

That order you link is a shooting prohibition only. If it were CA, UOC would still be perfectly legal.

That's true, I probably should have said "restrict firearm discharge" instead of "restrict firearms". OP was asking about LOC, so I wanted to reinforce that LOC (rather than UOC) could be restricted even in the non-wilderness areas. If you can't shoot then you can't LOC per 12031. :)

Hunt
01-13-2010, 8:33 AM
Yes, those orders only apply to wilderness areas, but they almost never get issued. I only know of one such order for one area in the entire state of California. I forget where... Immigrant Wilderness in Stanislaus NF maybe. I would think legal CA transport condition would be OK, it is in all other prohibited areas.

tcrpe
06-10-2010, 7:18 AM
I spent the morning trying to get a straight answer on this subject. It's my understanding that rural areas and national forests allow LOC. However, after spending some time on the phone I was told that I would be confronted if carrying a sidearm and that the only way it's legal is if I'm hunting. The person I talked to also said that normal hikers don't get harrassed, so if I keep it out of sight, they wouldn't bother me.

Now, I understand concealed is illegal without a permit, and I don't want to go that way for obvious reasons even if the chances of getting caught are a million to one. However, I would like to LOC out there when I'm hiking with my wife, but everyone seems to think it's illegal and I don't want to be the one to make case law at this time.

Does anyone else have any information regarding this? I know Mudcamper had done some stuff on this subject, but there was never a decisive answer anywhere.

The federal Government is concerned that with LOC, you might present a threat to the resident illegal alien pot growers.

locosway
06-10-2010, 7:20 AM
^^ No kidding!

solislbc
06-17-2015, 1:08 PM
Below is an e-mail I sent regarding a specific area I plan on hiking in. I already knew the answer, but I wanted an e-mail response I could print and carry with me. The area I was asking about is in Cleveland National Forest.

-Michael




Mr. Schwartz,


I'm responding to your question in reference to carrying a loaded firearm in the Laguna Meadows area of the Cleveland National Forest. You are correct, as long as you have legal authority to possess a firearm with the state you can carry a unconcealed loaded firearm on NFS lands. Key points to keep in mind are first to make sure you are in an unincorporated part of the county which Laguna Meadows falls under and if you are in lawful pursuit of any bird or mammal (hunting) please insure you follow California Department of Fish and Game state regulations. Thank you for your question and if you have any other questions please feel free to contact me.


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Anthony Rose, Patrol Captain
Law Enforcement & Investigations
Cleveland National Forest
10845 Rancho Bernardo Rd. Suite #200
San Diego, CA. 92127
Office #(858) 524-0125 Ext 3125
CP # (619) 508-0493
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~



Hello,
From what I can tell, when hiking around the Laguna Meadow and Big Laguna Lake, firearms can be loaded, but must not be concealed (unless you have a concealed weapon permit). So a hiker can legally carry a loaded firearm in a holster on their belt while hiking. This is how it appears after reviewing the California Penal Code and the County Regs. Can you confirm this?

-Michael

Sorry to bring back a very old thread but I plan on camping and hiking here in July. From what I could gather,

https://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3829531.pdf

Anthony Rose is still the captain here. The desk number is no longer valid, i have not tried the Cell # yet. Before I do, does anyone know if his reply from 2010 still stands? I do not have a CCW.

Thanks

Jimi Jah
06-18-2015, 8:32 AM
Ugh. I want to see a definitive ruling on LOC in Cleveland National Forest...

This is California, nothing is definitive here. Everything is interpreted. Urban forests have their own rules. It's not the Sierra National Forest.

xaerorazor
06-18-2015, 11:40 AM
Sorry to bring back a very old thread but I plan on camping and hiking here in July. From what I could gather,

https://fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3829531.pdf

Anthony Rose is still the captain here. The desk number is no longer valid, i have not tried the Cell # yet. Before I do, does anyone know if his reply from 2010 still stands? I do not have a CCW.

Thanks


1: CNF (Forrest-wide) has no current Orders restricting firearm carry.
2: Refer to the following map on "shooting openly" County shooting map (http://sdcounty.maps.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=567b3a904d6a4bfa96d25bd37f4fd739)

If you come up here to Mt. Laguna during the week, I might be in my office at MLO.

solislbc
06-18-2015, 11:48 AM
Thanks. I don't plan on hunting or shooting it for that matter. It's merely for self defense for me and my kids. I would rather not openly carry, prefer concealed.

I just want to make sure I understand the law before I make my decision. We plan on camping in Mount Laguna Campground and hiking the areas and meadows around the Lakes.